Precision Rifle Gear Tango Innovations FIRE4000 WMLRF Initial Impressions
- Thread starter skyewalker
- Start date
Oh, like a bubble-level or Send-It substitute? That would be kinda handy for some, I guess.
My, uh, rather continued point here is, for measuring the environment (not temp table software related, as @Maurygold meant), a WMLRF can’t really be a substitute for a small Kestrel-type device.
Why? Because you can’t spin your rifle to remove the influence of sun/gun/ground/body heat. Unless you’re Thor.
One can hardly want to vigorously spin even a pair of 10x42 LRF binos to clear their temp sensors.
I’d be worried about the things taking off into the great blue yonder, either by the strap slipping out of the hands or the strap or strap connection breaking. Or banging them into something. Especially if you’ve got $2700+ wrapped up into one of the more $$$ units.
Because I, for one, have never had my Kestrel rocket away mid-spin. Ahem.
I shoot my impact all the time without any other devices even though I have a kestrel and sig lrf.
You should quit swinging your kestrel around at the range. It’s really not necessary. Ever.
Hmmmm. I should quantify the change on my unit, but the more intense the sun and the longer the Kestrel sits out (to a point), the more the temp is off.
Much like the hood of your car.
I can even see the temp start to rise in the winter in less than a second while it’s in my hand.
And here’s a bit from a Kestrel user manual?
I’m open to other ideas, but a simple 5-10 spins of the Kestrel and it’s reset.
Meanwhile, if it had a temp unit inside, the metal box that is the Fire4000 sits and bakes in the sun. (Poly box for the Vortex…although not sure what’s under the poly)
Again, open to other thoughts. Heard Frank spins when he shoots…maybe the juice isn’t worth the squeeze…PRS guys care to comment as to what happens re:spinning during matches? @X-ring ?
I wave it, like in the manual, never have spun it but my friends spin theirs. It wouldn’t fit in my case if it had a lanyard on it for spinning, so I wave it.
I don’t know how you’re supposed to get away without doing one or the other though, unless you can keep it in the shade and out of contact with surfaces that absorb heat. Once you make the Environment Live, the temp almost always goes down after you wave/spin it.
I don’t know how you’re supposed to get away without doing one or the other though, unless you can keep it in the shade and out of contact with surfaces that absorb heat. Once you make the Environment Live, the temp almost always goes down after you wave/spin it.
Hey! Look at that. A Tango guy replied to me. Cool!
Sorry man, I missed your responses to this thread yesterday.
Cool that I was understanding your design idea (edit: I actually had missed your earlier explanation of “solar loading”; nice phrase.)
I probably would’ve already bought your unit if I didn’t have two kids in college
So, what say you about the temp table thing? We know there’s no temp sensor in the unit, but pretend:
- a temp table has been previously built & applied to a rifle/ammo profile in AB within the Kestrel*
- the environmentals have been transferred from the Kestrel to the Fire4000 and locked (can you manually enter temp etc btw?)
- The Kestrel’s AB rifle/ammo data has been transferred to to the Fire4000
- All Bluetooth is turned off and you go hunting. No connection is made from the Fire400 to your phone, to the Kestrel, or to your mom. Lol.
Can the Fire4000’s built-in AB then calculate solutions using these previously “temp table” trued profiles? How do the results differ in the above scenario if we allow the Fire4000 continued access to the phone, but not the Kestrel? Or to both the phone and Kestrel? Or to just the Kestrel and not the phone?
I’m quite unclear on how the data workflow works between phone/unit.
*I call this truing; I think others do too…but I don’t own a Kestrel so not sure on the nomenclature. I also assume, like in my Strelok, one can attach trued ammo profiles to rifles.
====== boring background detail ======
Because this subject has been proven to be a little slippery to discuss (for me at least) and given the fact that I am certainly no ballistician, please do read that link I just put in this paragraph. The assumption I’m making is, just like in Strelok, a temp table is used in AB to help true your ammo’s bc by using the speed of the bullet at various temps.
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okay let me break this down.
If the unit has no ability to measure temperature, it cannot ever adjust a solution based on temperature while not connected to bluetooth.
The tango would have no data other than the last data you fed it for enviro.
If the unit has no ability to measure temperature, it cannot ever adjust a solution based on temperature while not connected to bluetooth.
The tango would have no data other than the last data you fed it for enviro.
Well shiiiit bro look at you finally clearing the air
For me just taking a Kestrel along then Bob’s your uncle bang I’m good. BT to Kestrel doesn’t bother me. I don’t need to go all low-drag/hi speed with just a WMLRF.
Since you cannot reset/clear the WMLRF from the sun etc, it doesn’t matter if it can read the temp or not. The onboard WMLRF reading is going to be wrong anyway.
The AB Engine can handle MV Temp tables yes. It is up to the manufacturer if they implement them or not. In fact, the engines in the devices can handle all AB inputs/features. What is turned on/off is entirely up the manufacturer.
MV-Temps should be 25 Deg F or 14 Deg C apart for better accuracy.
it was clear - idk why you were so confused about no enviro leading to the inability to update based on enviro?
"The onboard WMLRF reading is going to be wrong anyway" - this is innacurate and you should try using one before you claim what the limitations are a bunch of times.
Thank you Doc, is there any forecast of when this device will be included/onboarded into Quantum? Not having to re-create all of my rifle profiles will be rather nice.
Perhaps describe exactly how your Impact 4000’s temp readings react to being out in the sun for hours? Compare it to your Kestrel…wait, you don’t wave or spin that either…
are you slow or something? we already discussed the ability to manually enter or lock temperature. Same as a kestrel.
You barely knew what a temp table was; maybe you're not the best person to build out a pros and cons list of long-range tools you're never buying.
Aahhhhh maybe that’s where I’m perhaps messed up with Strelok’s minimum recommended MV table temp spread. When the Russian dev states a 15° difference needed, he means in Celsius and I’m thinking Fahrenheit. And I didn’t take that into account! Thx
Fascinating deflection.
So again, how much (roughly) does the sun affect your WMLRF or bino temp sensor readings?
you don't know what a temp table is and you want to argue about how to accurately use one.....
if my gun is cooking in the sun, my ammo probably is too. if my gun is cooking in the sun and my ammo is not I can use one of many things to manually set the temp - my kestrel temp (waving it around like an idiot or not), my phone, whatever the temp was before i cooked my gun, common fucking sense on how it feels (because you only need to be w/ 10-15 degrees)
You're entire premise that enviro not on the device somehow maybe possibly being an advantage is stupid and innacurate. If you really think you've cracked the code and achieved some level of intelligence from this that others do not possess, I encourage you to go submit an application to Wilcox and tell them how smart you are because you think enviro doesn't belong on a WMLRF and you can fix their shitty WMLRF with enviro. I don't think any govts or agencies even use it (because of the sun)
Dude. I know what a temp table is. I didn’t know the popular name of the table.now we're deflecting
dumbasss.
All people have to do is to look at your post history on this site to make their own conclusions about your character.
I pay attention; I knew this going in. I figured I’d treat you like a regular Joe to see what happened. Unfortunately, you kinda did what you usually do.
I am very careful to try not to come across as an expert unless I very much know that I am. I am far from an expert in ballistics or sensors or WMLRF etc. I could see the sun-heated temp of a unit not making enough of a ballistic difference. Perhaps. Devil/details.
But why then does spinning/waving a Kestrel seem to be a thing, and recommended by Kestrel itself?
I have left open the possibility that I am wrong at every opportunity. I somehow think you do not approach life in the same manner.
In the future I expect it to be added, but I don't have a time frame for that.
to be fair I treated you like someone of intellectual capacity until:
you wrote a thesis about how no one can explain why environmental matters right after I explained temp tables were the issue.
you clearly demonstrated having no idea what temp table are.
You wrote an email to Tango to ask if it can adjust ballistics on a sensor it doesn't even have.
you asked AB if their software can utilize temp tables even though it's clearly in their engine.
You think you outsmarted Wilcox and Vortex engineers by recognizing the sun makes things warm.
I can see why you need to take on life with the "I might be wrong approach"
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Now that Mr. Maury is ignored, things can get civil again. At least for me, lol. Carry on.
Thanks for that, Doc. You, at least, understood what I was getting at.
Now I guess it’s up to @Mfelici1!! from Tango to reply to that and some other q’s in this post above.
^ This guy is really something special.
The real question is - can you manually set enviro?
the manual does not suggest that there is any way to set the without Bluetooth pushing the data. It's most likley the cae you cannot since you also cannot select between profiles on the device.
If you cannot even manually adjust between profiles or input enviro this is extremely overpriced and should have been $800.
The real question is - can you manually set enviro?
the manual does not suggest that there is any way to set the without Bluetooth pushing the data. It's most likley the cae you cannot since you also cannot select between profiles on the device.
If you cannot even manually adjust between profiles or input enviro this is extremely overpriced and should have been $800.
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Btw I’ll add this to the Notes section of my roundup of third-party reviews of the Vortex and Tango.
New YouTube video about this lrf from Mountains MM
He explained that in the video. He is using the phone to get the weather from the internet, so it needs service to do so. If you are using the kestrel, it doesn't need the phone or phone service.
You basically need the phone/app to make any changes. It is one of my biggest complaints about the unit so far, not having the ability to store multiple profiles on the unit is annoying. Relying on the app to make any changes to the device is frustrating to say the least.
You basically need the phone/app to make any changes. It is one of my biggest complaints about the unit so far, not having the ability to store multiple profiles on the unit is annoying. Relying on the app to make any changes to the device is frustrating to say the least.
Just to clarify, the Fire4k can connect directly to a kestrel to update environmentals?
But any changes to the ballistic profile need to be done by connecting to the AB BOSS app loaded onto a cell phone?
So both @X-ring and that dude aren’t bothered by the Fire4000’s lack of onboard weather. Interesting.
Weird the reviewer wouldn’t use a Kestrel for weather, however.
I believe so. He mentions you can, as do others.
Apparently. It would be cool if one could
Edit: I swear someone mentioned being able to
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Found it. You can toggle between rifles with an either a cell phone or the Kestrel. I assume this includes changing ammo (don’t own a ballistic Kestrel w/link, but I will if I buy this unit). Hopefully those with an appropriate Kestrel chime in.
To make actual data changes to a profile, you need one of those two devices. As far as I understand it.
I would definitely prefer using a Kestrel to swap profiles and enter weather vs using my phone, so this is good news to me.
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Wait...I was under the impression that the unit would only hold one ballistic profile at a time. So you're not so much "toggling between rifles" as deleting one and replacing it with another.
It makes no sense (to me) that they would build a device that can hold several profiles in memory and then force the user to connect an external device to choose which profile the device uses.
Here is the manufacturer’s rep explaining their philosophy behind the design. It’s a cost/size trade off, according to them. Edit: plus the solar loading issue.
Technically, yes, that’s how I understand it.
I agree It would be nice, if switching ammo, that one could toggle that on the WMLRF unit itself. That appears to not be the case.
But as long as I can do it with a Kestrel and not have to use my phone, I’m down with it. I’ll have my Kestrel along, regardless.
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Mic drop on locking enviro when cooking electronics. I wonder if anyone in here suggested that?
They cut out a ton of stuff to make it cheaper but the street price of an impact is equal to this. I can’t get behind this.
I thought no enviro was the real killer but no wind adjustment on the unit is unacceptable.
I would maybe buy one for $7-800 where it should be priced.
To me this reads as a creative way to spin cost cutting decisions in the development of a hobby grade device. The environmental sensors were left out to make the device as cheap to manufacture as possible, and they're very creatively selling this as being "just as good." Same-same for making you use of an app for basic functions like creating a ballistic profile instead of building this function into the device itself - clearly done to save cost.
And IMO these sorts of things make the device seem overpriced compared to the Vortex (which can be had for only $100 more when on sale). What a time to be alive...3 years ago there was nothing that could touch either the Impact or the Fire4k in regards to value.
Can you really edit or change a profile using only the kestrel? In ABI mode, I mean. I still think that may require connecting to the app. Hopefully someone who owns one of these things can clarify.
I may be wrong, but I think in ABE mode, the device is uses the Kestrel Elite (or Garmin 901) as an external ballistic calculator (via a constant Bluetooth connection), and so obviously the user can adjust whatever they want to on the external device. But ABI mode must be programmed via the phone App...that is assuming I'm reading the manual correctly.
You may be right. Maybe @skyewalker will chime in as he’s the dude who started this thread. Or the Tango company rep @Mfelici1!!
All I’ve seen is the “quick” manual here
If you have an in-depth user manual, let us know.
You can see why I put the software/workflow section into the “unknown/neutral/unclear” area of the list of collected pros/cons of the unit. Confusing!
On it chief!Maybe you could purchase both units and do a detailed comparison for us?
(checks 2 kid’s tuition statement)
(checks balance)
Off it chief!
My dumb pro/con list of others experiences will have to be my contrib for now.
This is incorrect, your Kestrel AND the phone app can hold multiple profiles. Obviously only one can be active, but you can switch back and forth on either your Kestrel or your phone without deleting anything. As far as the Tango4000 being a standalone unit, it will use whichever profile you had active the last, whether you were using the phone app or the Kestrel.
"Can you really edit or change a profile using only the kestrel? In ABI mode, I mean. I still think that may require connecting to the app. Hopefully someone who owns one of these things can clarify."- ABE is External mode, which means the Tango is controlled by an external device, whatever info that device feeds it, the Tango just displays it. ABI is internal mode, which means the Tango runs AB solutions after ranging based on the last (enviro, wind, atmospheric, DOF etc) input from an external device vie Bluetooth.
"I may be wrong, but I think in ABE mode, the device is uses the Kestrel Elite (or Garmin 901) as an external ballistic calculator (via a constant Bluetooth connection), and so obviously the user can adjust whatever they want to on the external device. But ABI mode must be programmed via the phone App...that is assuming I'm reading the manual correctly."- technically correct but it's a little more nuanced than that. I'll update the main post later @Tx_Aggie
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So you can program the ABI mode using only a kestrel, no need to use the phone App?
I understand that in ABE the device is using the kestrel/garmin/whatever as an external ballistic solver, and so would be able to use however many profiles are stored on the kestrel by simply selecting a different gun (I think I have that right).
If you're not replacing a single profile in the device each time you switch to a different gun, how many profiles will the device hold in it's internal memory?
@carbonbased thanks for chiming in, a lot of your info is correct and I agree with you on a lot of the points you made. I have to finish testing one more thing and I'll update the main post with some more detailed "how it works/workflow" information this weekend.
That's actually a good question, I think technically you could open the box, turn the unit on, switch to ABE and go to work, never using the phone app. (I didn't test this as I did the phone app first and tried the Kestrel later, but it should work).
Yes, in ABE, select whatever gun you want on kestrel and range. Switch guns on kestrel and range. That easy.
I mean technically, yes, there is one profile in the actual device at a time. Whatever the last gun profile you had pushed to the device is whats active in the device once the device is in "standalone mode" (Let's just define standalone mode as Tango 4000 not connected to Bluetooth). The only way to switch to a different gun profile at that point is to reconnect to a BT device (phone or Kestrel). Another point that i should make is that the phone app can hold up to 25 profiles as well. I may have misunderstood what you were saying earlier when you said "delete". Wish we could all just sit by a fire while out shooting and discuss this instead of typing it on a forum... Except that Maury guy, he sounds like he would argue with a fencepost just for fun, he's not invited.
So you cannot change profiles, input environmental factors or input wind in standalone mode.
vortex blows this out of the water.
I’ll be shocked if the company doesnt go under and your warranty won’t be worth anything in 2 years.
Some of us see the value in this, you see the value in the Vortex, some have both... either way, we should all be happy this market segment is evolving with options.. Point of this post is to list out all the capabilities/pros & cons of the unit and let the guys decide which way they want to go. And as far as them going under, probably too early to call that but if they do, I doubt it will be from lack of sales. Me personally, I like new guys bringing cool stuff (that we have all been asking for) to market and wish them the best. If this means taking a chance that one day I'll have a non-functioning unit with nobody to work on it, well.... will just buy something else lol...
How many times are you going to shit on this? We get it, once was enough, anything more than that is redundant and unnecessary. This is a technical forum, either provide actual feedback if you have hands-on experience, and if not go post in the Pit.
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