Precision Rifle Gear Tango Innovations FIRE4000 WMLRF Initial Impressions

#201
It is pretty stupid that it doesn't come with environmental sensors. No, I don't want yet another thing to hang on my rifle that is dependent on my phone or kestrel.

AB being reactive to this criticism online is a pretty shitty look.

You can't make an accurate temperature sensor work. <Ignores the Impact 4000, Mars Lc, Wilcox Raptar>

I'm going to laugh at all the defensive nut hanging if the new Sig WLRF comes with AB and environmental sensors.
 
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#202
IMG_8430.jpeg
 
#203
A lot of us have been grabbing enviro on the kestrel and locking it in with success for a long time and prefer it that way. This feels to me like a preference thing, if you want it onboard, this device is obviously not for you at this time. We are kinda beating a dead horse here guys.
 
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#204
skyewalker said:
A lot of us have been grabbing enviro on the kestrel and locking it in with success for a long time and prefer it that way. This feels to me like a preference thing, if you want it onboard, this device is obviously not for you at this time. We are kinda beating a dead horse here guys.
Click to expand...
a long time? it's been out for a month.

The influencers and company are all being very quiet about these shortcomings and blatant attempt to make the unit cheaper without reflecting that in the price.
 
#205
skyewalker said:
A lot of us have been grabbing enviro on the kestrel and locking it in with success for a long time and prefer it that way. This feels to me like a preference thing, if you want it onboard, this device is obviously not for you at this time. We are kinda beating a dead horse here guys.
Click to expand...
Yeah, so that might happen when there is a valid critique of a product guys. Maybe we all shouldn't be defensive about that. You know in a thread about a product that came out last month.

To your other point, just because I use a Kestrel for PRS doesn't mean I want that same workflow for other rifle uses. Many of the other similar products, except for this one, have these features. Since we are all gatekeeping on this, I will leave it at.
 
#206
@Maurygold Yes a long time. Like since the Kestrel hit the market…

There are maybe a handful of “influencers” (lol) that received unit for free that I’ve seen? Idk, I’m honestly not that plugged in but they were all upfront about enviros not being included on board, including myself in the half ass of a review I wrote, or am I wrong?

@GenericBadGuy yeah man, most of the others are on board. I’m just saying we are going in circles here. Tango only has inclinometer on board as far as sensors go, enviro has to come in from an external device.
 
#207
GenericBadGuy said:
Yeah, so that might happen when there is a valid critique of a product guys. Maybe we all shouldn't be defensive about that. You know in a thread about a product that came out last month.
Click to expand...
So, let take this out of the realm of pure opinion (mine included) and at least run some numbers, shall we?

A Kestrel has a temp sensor located outside of a housing, so it can cool down fast once waved or spun.

It is my assumption that weather-sealed devices have their temp sensor buried inside the device, hopefully somewhat sealed away from any electronic heat.

If this is correct, I then assume that the WMLRF, in this case, heats up like a car’s interior. A secondary assumption is there is no fancy software way to minimize what we’re calling solar loading.

Here is a link that talks about the heating that takes place inside a car’s interior:

How Hot Does Your Car Get? | AC Pro®

Cars left in the summer heat can often feel like stepping inside an oven. But how hot does your car get in the sun? Stay cool and find out why with A/C Pro®.
www.acprocold.com www.acprocold.com

Screenshot:
1741374453161.png

Notice that the interior heats up the fastest in the first 30 minutes; avg of 1°F a minute.

Ok, taking their example, it’s 90°F out and you’ve left the gun in the sun for 90 minutes. It’s now 138°F inside the WMLRF.

At 800 yds, according to Strelok, my vertical hold is now .5mil off, and my left-right 8mph wind hold is .2mil off. See attachments for details.

Now I may be totally wrong on how the temp sensors work inside weather-sealed devices. I might have done something else wrong. And this is a more extreme example. But there is no great way to cool off your WMLRF or even binos in this scenario.

Remember, the temp sensor is sealed inside a bino/WMLRF (I assume) whereas the Kestrel is out in the open.

Again, I MIGHT BE TOTALLY WRONG YOU BONEHEADS. Lol

But at least bring some facts to the table?
 

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#209
carbonbased said:
So, let take this out of the realm of pure opinion (mine included) and at least run some numbers, shall we?

A Kestrel has a temp sensor located outside of a housing, so it can cool down fast once waved or spun.

It is my assumption that weather-sealed devices have their temp sensor buried inside the device, hopefully somewhat sealed away from any electronic heat.

If this is correct, I then assume that the WMLRF, in this case, heats up like a car’s interior. A secondary assumption is there is no fancy software way to minimize what we’re calling solar loading.

Here is a link that talks about the heating that takes place inside a car’s interior:

How Hot Does Your Car Get? | AC Pro®

Cars left in the summer heat can often feel like stepping inside an oven. But how hot does your car get in the sun? Stay cool and find out why with A/C Pro®.
www.acprocold.com www.acprocold.com

Screenshot:
View attachment 8634810
Notice that the interior heats up the fastest in the first 30 minutes; avg of 1°F a minute.

Ok, taking their example, it’s 90°F out and you’ve left the gun in the sun for 90 minutes. It’s now 138°F inside the WMLRF.

At 800 yds, according to Strelok, my vertical hold is now .5mil off, and my left-right 8mph wind hold is .2mil off. See attachments for details.

Now I may be totally wrong on how the temp sensors work inside weather-sealed devices. I might have done something else wrong. And this is a more extreme example. But there is no great way to cool off your WMLRF or even binos in this scenario.

Remember, the temp sensor is sealed inside a bino/WMLRF (I assume) whereas the Kestrel is out in the open.

Again, I MIGHT BE TOTALLY WRONG YOU BONEHEADS. Lol

But at least bring some facts to the table?
Click to expand...

Wtf???

The facts are that the sun heats things. You can lock and/ or manually enter the temperature in an impact and a kestrel to avoid thermal drifting. Just like I told you a week ago.
 
#211
carbonbased said:
So, let take this out of the realm of pure opinion (mine included) and at least run some numbers, shall we?

A Kestrel has a temp sensor located outside of a housing, so it can cool down fast once waved or spun.

It is my assumption that weather-sealed devices have their temp sensor buried inside the device, hopefully somewhat sealed away from any electronic heat.

If this is correct, I then assume that the WMLRF, in this case, heats up like a car’s interior. A secondary assumption is there is no fancy software way to minimize what we’re calling solar loading.

Here is a link that talks about the heating that takes place inside a car’s interior:

How Hot Does Your Car Get? | AC Pro®

Cars left in the summer heat can often feel like stepping inside an oven. But how hot does your car get in the sun? Stay cool and find out why with A/C Pro®.
www.acprocold.com www.acprocold.com

Screenshot:
View attachment 8634810
Notice that the interior heats up the fastest in the first 30 minutes; avg of 1°F a minute.

Ok, taking their example, it’s 90°F out and you’ve left the gun in the sun for 90 minutes. It’s now 138°F inside the WMLRF.

At 800 yds, according to Strelok, my vertical hold is now .5mil off, and my left-right 8mph wind hold is .2mil off. See attachments for details.

Now I may be totally wrong on how the temp sensors work inside weather-sealed devices. I might have done something else wrong. And this is a more extreme example. But there is no great way to cool off your WMLRF or even binos in this scenario.

Remember, the temp sensor is sealed inside a bino/WMLRF (I assume) whereas the Kestrel is out in the open.

Again, I MIGHT BE TOTALLY WRONG YOU BONEHEADS. Lol

But at least bring some facts to the table?
Click to expand...
I am aware of solar loading when there is sun and I agree that the Kestrel can better control for those things with a mostly sealed device by having an exposed temperature sensor that can be normalized by spinning it in ambient air.

The counterpoint more so is that there could be a design that addresses these constraints. I get that aspirational ideas are not well liked. But for example, getting a temperature from a sensor on a kestrel drop or your binos is probably not going to be that far off. Integrate a sensor design into the device for that. Otherwise this is mostly a redundant accessary that could better be replaced by a workflow with laser rangefinding binos Linked tm to a Kestrel 5700.
 
#212
GenericBadGuy said:
I am aware of solar loading when there is sun and I agree that the Kestrel can better control for those things with a mostly sealed device by having an exposed temperature sensor that can be normalized by spinning it in ambient air.

The counterpoint more so is that there could be a design that addresses these constraints. I get that aspirational ideas are not well liked. But for example, getting a temperature from a sensor on a kestrel drop or your binos is probably not going to be that far off. Integrate a sensor design into the device for that. Otherwise this is mostly a redundant accessary that could better be replaced by a workflow with laser rangefinding binos Linked tm to a Kestrel 5700.
Click to expand...
Good point. I think I originally said something along the lines of “this certainly isn’t the end all be all device”, because that already exists and is north of 10k and is FDA regulated if you catch my drift.

I view this as an option to grab with a kestrel instead of my RF binos with sensors in them. Different situations will dictate what I bring that day. I like options. Especially cheap options, because this paired with a kestrel is still less money than 10k GenII’s or Vectronix.
 
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#213
GenericBadGuy said:
But for example, getting a temperature from a sensor on a kestrel drop or your binos is probably not going to be that far off. Integrate a sensor design into the device for that.
Click to expand...
Ok, so explain that a bit further, if you wouldn’t mind. A pair of binos could be affected by solar (or body heat) loading as well.

I’m not talking about aspirational desires; sure, I totally get that. I am talking about this product, in the here and now, versus other current products.

Here are some facts or personal experiences that I’d like to hear about:

Other people that own the Mars unit or the Impact 4000 or LRF binoculars with temp sensors: set them out in strong sunlight and see how the temp is affected in 30 minute increments up to 90 minutes. Give us pics.

Give us documentation from these unit’s instructions about how the device handles solar loading.

Give us specific numbers and examples of how some other factor will minimize solar loading. Emphasis on extremely specific, etc.

@Scott_at_Vortex care to comment as to how solar loading affects the sensors ia your LRF binos and WMLRF? Mitigation?

@SkyScrapin how about you? I believe you have access to a bunch of high-end WMLRF, although you seem to focus on night hunting.

I have no ego in this discussion. I just put forth a theory, and am interested as to how things work. I’m not here to put other people down. (I’m ignoring Maury, btw, b/c he’s unpleasant. No idea what he’s spouting.)
 
Last edited:
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#214
carbonbased said:
Ok, so explain that a bit further, if you wouldn’t mind. A pair of binos could be affected by solar (or body heat) loading as well.

I’m not talking about aspirational desires; sure, I totally get that. I am talking about this product, in the here and now, versus other current products.

Here are some facts or personal experiences that I’d like to hear about:

Other people that own the Mars unit or the Impact 4000 or LRF binoculars with temp sensors: set them out in strong sunlight and see how the temp is affected in 30 minute increments up to 90 minutes. Give us pics.

Give us documentation from these unit’s instructions about how the device handles solar loading.

Give us specific numbers and examples of how some other factor will minimize solar loading. Emphasis on extremely specific, etc.

@Scott_at_Vortex care to comment as to how solar loading affects the sensors ia your LRF binos and WMLRF? Mitigation?

@SkyScrapin how about you? I believe you have access to a bunch of high-end WMLRF, although you seem to focus on night hunting.

I have no ego in this discussion. I just put forth a theory, and am interested as to how things work. I’m not here to put other people down. (I’m ignoring Maury, btw, b/c he’s unpleasant. No idea what he’s spouting.)
Click to expand...
I am talking about that.

My normal workflow is with a Kestrel, distances from a not linked laser rangefinder binos. I also link my Kestrel to the Quantam app now that the old version is gone. It would be nice not have to juggle all this. Even then most of my shooting is known distance, it's the unknown distance/not competition I am most interested in.

To your point the Raptar S manual talks about verifying temperatures and warns about solar loading 4x.
 
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#216
carbonbased said:
Ok, so explain that a bit further, if you wouldn’t mind. A pair of binos could be affected by solar (or body heat) loading as well.

I’m not talking about aspirational desires; sure, I totally get that. I am talking about this product, in the here and now, versus other current products.

Here are some facts or personal experiences that I’d like to hear about:

Other people that own the Mars unit or the Impact 4000 or LRF binoculars with temp sensors: set them out in strong sunlight and see how the temp is affected in 30 minute increments up to 90 minutes. Give us pics.

Give us documentation from these unit’s instructions about how the device handles solar loading.

Give us specific numbers and examples of how some other factor will minimize solar loading. Emphasis on extremely specific, etc.

@Scott_at_Vortex care to comment as to how solar loading affects the sensors ia your LRF binos and WMLRF? Mitigation?

@SkyScrapin how about you? I believe you have access to a bunch of high-end WMLRF, although you seem to focus on night hunting.

I have no ego in this discussion. I just put forth a theory, and am interested as to how things work. I’m not here to put other people down. (I’m ignoring Maury, btw, b/c he’s unpleasant. No idea what he’s spouting.)
Click to expand...

Your theory that the sun warms things? I already told you three ways to prevent this phenomena entering you’re shooting solution that you think you’ve discovered for the first time in 2025
 
#217
GenericBadGuy said:
To your point the Raptar S manual talks about verifying temperatures and warns about solar loading 4x.
Click to expand...
I assume you mean the manual brings up the topic four times, and not that the temp could get 4x hotter inside the unit than ambient temp lol.

Perhaps that’s where part of the pushback against the Fire4000 in this thread is coming from; group A says it’s no big deal that there’s no weather sensors included (considering only current tech), and others think that means group A doesn’t see an advantage to having those sensors in any future scenario.

If that “talking past each other” is indeed the case, I definitely would love weather sensors in a WMLRF or LRF bino. But I’d only pay more for them if manufacturers can figure out a way to make those sensors largely immune to solar loading (and the like).

Because if you start a hunt at 5000ft, cloudy, and 80°F, you could be in a position to shoot at 10,000ft, sunny, and 50°F a few days later. And I’ll have my Kestrel with me anyway for wind.
 
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#220
carbonbased said:
I assume you mean the manual brings up the topic four times, and not that the temp could get 4x hotter inside the unit than ambient temp lol.

Perhaps that’s where part of the pushback against the Fire4000 in this thread is coming from; group A says it’s no big deal that there’s no weather sensors included (considering only current tech), and others think that means group A doesn’t see an advantage to having those sensors in any future scenario.

If that “talking past each other” is indeed the case, I definitely would love weather sensors in a WMLRF or LRF bino. But I’d only pay more for them if manufacturers can figure out a way to make those sensors largely immune to solar loading (and the like).

Because if you start a hunt at 5000ft, cloudy, and 80°F, you could be in a position to shoot at 10,000ft, sunny, and 50°F a few days later. And I’ll have my Kestrel with me anyway for wind.
Click to expand...
Yes, Wilcox is basically warning the user on four different pages that solar loading can/will give the wrong ambient temperature reading.

I understand your other points.
 
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#224
Tx_Aggie said:
So you can program the ABI mode using only a kestrel, no need to use the phone App?

I understand that in ABE the device is using the kestrel/garmin/whatever as an external ballistic solver, and so would be able to use however many profiles are stored on the kestrel by simply selecting a different gun (I think I have that right).

If you're not replacing a single profile in the device each time you switch to a different gun, how many profiles will the device hold in it's internal memory?
Click to expand...
Interested in clarity to this as well. I completely get that in ABE mode the rangefinder is just getting a range, sending the info to the Kestrel, then displaying the calculation on the FIRE4000. My question is how do I get the unit to hold that profile (from the kestrel) and external environmental settings (from the Kestrel) after the kestrel is shut off. I would like to only use the Kestrel. Not interested in using my phone/app to push information. Don't mind pushing the info periodically with the Kestrel, but how do I get the unit to hold my Kestrel's profile? Does it have to be connected in ABE all the time? It seems like ABI has to be setup through the Phone App and push a profile to the unit (Enviro, Angle etc...included) from your phone. Can I use my Kestrel to push the same info in ABI, and have the FIRE4000 hold the Kestrel's profile? Then shut the kestrel down, go shooting using the FIRE4000 in ABI, and then reconnect with the Kestrel in a few hours to push new enviros? Any info clearing this up would be great.
 
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#225
sbernier123 said:
Interested in clarity to this as well. I completely get that in ABE mode the rangefinder is just getting a range, sending the info to the Kestrel, then displaying the calculation on the FIRE4000. My question is how do I get the unit to hold that profile (from the kestrel) and external environmental settings (from the Kestrel) after the kestrel is shut off. I would like to only use the Kestrel. Not interested in using my phone/app to push information. Don't mind pushing the info periodically with the Kestrel, but how do I get the unit to hold my Kestrel's profile? Does it have to be connected in ABE all the time? It seems like ABI has to be setup through the Phone App and push a profile to the unit (Enviro, Angle etc...included) from your phone. Can I use my Kestrel to push the same info in ABI, and have the FIRE4000 hold the Kestrel's profile? Then shut the kestrel down, go shooting using the FIRE4000 in ABI, and then reconnect with the Kestrel in a few hours to push new enviros? Any info clearing this up would be great.
Click to expand...
Good question, I’ll check this out later and let you know. If I had to guess based on what I know so far, once you go back to ABI it will revert to the last thing that phone had pushed to the device. There’s no way to communicate Kestrel info to the BOSS app either as far as I know, you’d have to punch any info in manually on the BOSS to match what kestrel gave you. But let me confirm and I’ll edit this response as appropriate.
 
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#226
skyewalker said:
Good question, I’ll check this out later and let you know. If I had to guess based on what I know so far, once you go back to ABI it will revert to the last thing that phone had pushed to the device. There’s no way to communicate Kestrel info to the BOSS app either as far as I know, you’d have to punch any info in manually on the BOSS to match what kestrel gave you. But let me confirm and I’ll edit this response as appropriate.
Click to expand...
I wonder what will change once the BOSS app is rolled up into Quantum? Since Quantum can communicate with both devices?
 
#228
So what's the consensus on using these in cold weather? I see it's rated to 14° while Vortex says the Impact is rated to 4°, although I have had a lot of issues with the screen at higher temperatures than that.

Liking the idea of a wired remote as my Impact one constantly disconnects.
 
#231
boomslang said:
Mine arrived a day earlier than expected. Threw a battery in, got it mounted and fired it up. First impressions are very good. It feels very well made. The display is crisp and bright (despite my picture). The buttons on the unit are not mushy at all. I’ll spend the next few days to try and get familiar with it until I can squeeze in a range day.

View attachment 8614943View attachment 8614944
Click to expand...
@boomslang which diving board is that? The standard or low?
 
#234
We found an interesting 'glitch' over the weekend. We have been able to replicate it on 2 different Tango's, multiple times.

If you press and hold the remote or onboard range button long enough to feel the vibrate, after 2-3 consecutive ranges, the unit will stop updating the dope...range works, but dope is locked up. If you press and immediately release the remote or onboard range button, no issues at all. This is in ABI mode. It's hard to tell on ABE, as the dope takes so long to get from Kestrel to the unit, it powers off.

My teammate was having problems with his not updating dope. Once we got together in person (he lives in another state), I was able to figure it out, by dumb-luck. I don't have the vibrate function turned on on my unit, so it was impossible for me to get my unit to screw up. However, once we got his to do it multiple times, I tried mine and sure enough, same thing.

We contacted Tango about this. I would assume they will be working on a update to fix the glitch.

It's not really a "problem", per say, if you push and release the button. But, like my teammate said, in his mind, the purpose for the vibrate function was to let him know the range was successful without looking at the unit. So, I guess I can see his point.
 
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#235
A&8's said:
We found an interesting 'glitch' over the weekend. We have been able to replicate it on 2 different Tango's, multiple times.

If you press and hold the remote or onboard range button long enough to feel the vibrate, after 2-3 consecutive ranges, the unit will stop updating the dope...range works, but dope is locked up. If you press and immediately release the remote or onboard range button, no issues at all. This is in ABI mode. It's hard to tell on ABE, as the dope takes so long to get from Kestrel to the unit, it powers off.

My teammate was having problems with his not updating dope. Once we got together in person (he lives in another state), I was able to figure it out, by dumb-luck. I don't have the vibrate function turned on on my unit, so it was impossible for me to get my unit to screw up. However, once we got his to do it multiple times, I tried mine and sure enough, same thing.

We contacted Tango about this. I would assume they will be working on a update to fix the glitch.

It's not really a "problem", per say, if you push and release the button. But, like my teammate said, in his mind, the purpose for the vibrate function was to let him know the range was successful without looking at the unit. So, I guess I can see his point.
Click to expand...
Interesting. I've been testing mine but haven't noticed that, but I also haven't specifically done that sequence of events. I'll have to test and see if mine does it.

Has anyone had an issue with the actual range accuracy? When I look at the range card for my home range and use the Tango, the LRF gives me anywhere from 2 to 7 yards farther than the target actually is. I can confirm with my Vortex Fury binos that the distances from the Tango show farther each time. And I am certain the Tango is hitting the target because it was dusk and I had the viz laser turned on so I was sure it was hitting the target and not the backdrop.
 
#236
shootingnut said:
Interesting. I've been testing mine but haven't noticed that, but I also haven't specifically done that sequence of events. I'll have to test and see if mine does it.

Has anyone had an issue with the actual range accuracy? When I look at the range card for my home range and use the Tango, the LRF gives me anywhere from 2 to 7 yards farther than the target actually is. I can confirm with my Vortex Fury binos that the distances from the Tango show farther each time. And I am certain the Tango is hitting the target because it was dusk and I had the viz laser turned on so I was sure it was hitting the target and not the backdrop.
Click to expand...
Have you zero’d the actual IR laser? It could just be your vis being misaligned with the IR. I use skylined thin objects (powerlines/stadium lights etc), has to be skylined that way if it hits you know it’s on, if you don’t get a range you’re obviously off.

Like I had mentioned I had a 2yd consistent discrepancy between my handheld and the tango but that’s not enough for me to say which one is wrong
 
#237
skyewalker said:
Have you zero’d the actual IR laser? It could just be your vis being misaligned with the IR. I use skylined thin objects (powerlines/stadium lights etc), has to be skylined that way if it hits you know it’s on, if you don’t get a range you’re obviously off.

Like I had mentioned I had a 2yd consistent discrepancy between my handheld and the tango but that’s not enough for me to say which one is wrong
Click to expand...
Zero the IR laser? It was my understanding that the viz laser is slaved to the IR and that's how you zero both? I'm pretty sure that's the case otherwise how would you zero it?
 
#238
shootingnut said:
Zero the IR laser? It was my understanding that the viz laser is slaved to the IR and that's how you zero both? I'm pretty sure that's the case otherwise how would you zero it?
Click to expand...
It’s slaved, doesn’t mean they’re always perfectly aligned. Just like your handheld rangefinders aren’t ever perfectly aligned with the reticle inside. Point at a skylined object (thinner the better) and find your vertical and horizontal offset
 
#239
skyewalker said:
It’s slaved, doesn’t mean they’re always perfectly aligned. Just like your handheld rangefinders aren’t ever perfectly aligned with the reticle inside. Point at a skylined object (thinner the better) and find your vertical and horizontal offset
Click to expand...
Interesting, I doubt that would cause my issue because the steel animal targets I was testing on were pretty large, the deviation from viz to IR would have to be pretty huge. But I will test this out anyway next chance I get on a light pole or similar.
 
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#240
Mine is consistently 5 yrds off, when compared to 2 LRF binos (Sig 3K and Sig 6K)....this tested on ranging skylined power pole transformers from 250-1200yrds. (I also tested this at a recent ELR match I MD'd, out to 1760y. WMLRF read 1765, while others read 1760.)

Not really a big deal, IMO, as the range is just a number. Meaning, if I cal my MV with this LRF, it is calibrated to this gun. Regardless if it's 1200 or 1205, as long as I cal my MV to the range I hit with the WMLRF, that's all that matters.
 
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#241
A&8's said:
Mine is consistently 5 yrds off, when compared to 2 LRF binos (Sig 3K and Sig 6K)....this tested on ranging skylined power pole transformers from 250-1200yrds. (I also tested this at a recent ELR match I MD'd, out to 1760y. WMLRF read 1765, while others read 1760.)

Not really a big deal, IMO, as the range is just a number. Meaning, if I cal my MV with this LRF, it is calibrated to this gun. Regardless if it's 1200 or 1205, as long as I cal my MV to the range I hit with the WMLRF, that's all that matters.
Click to expand...
Glad I'm not the only one, mine is also pretty consistently 5 yards further than the target really is. It's not a huge problem, but I don't calibrate my MVs like that. I just pull the true MV from my Garmin and use AB custom curves, so I would really prefer that it not be that far off. Will have to do more testing to confirm.
 
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