I F'n despise Leofoto and other Chinese knockoff specialists

M

mlpkhl

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
May 1, 2013
505
135
Salt Lake City, Ut
#1
Disclaimer I do work for RRS, but this isn't an RRS ownership endorsed post..

I know going into this it could teach people about cheaper options out there, but it will also expand the knowledge of some of you guys who care about international companies, simply seeing you as dollar sign, while ripping off what they can because some folks just don't care.

So yeah I know the saying "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" but F them.

Look at these photos below, I just can't believe how people/whole companies can think this is okay. It isn't new, we have known about it for the past 6 years but can't do squat. Its as if they look up specific patents, for the purpose of copying them.

I know a lot of you have the tripods and I haven't (nor will I) freak out at you when you call up, the principle of it just irks the shit out of me. We have a lot of smart people working for us, working their tails off to come up with good ideas, me taking the knowledge I have gained from my service for new ideas, and listening to what you guys want, then it just gets ripped right off.

There are a lot of other companies that make bargain tripods, heads, gear, that will hold up for a season or 2. So if you can, please try and go to them. But if you don't care, who am I to do anything about it.

Just me griping and my .02 worth.

edit: I just realized they even took the division name we came up with and put it on their website! S.O.A.R, Sport Optics and Rifles


Leofoto on left, RRS on right

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#3
He did. I talked to him about 5 years ago, told Josh how I thought it could be improved. how Id like to do it if he didn't. He didn't so we went forward and didn't break any laws or rules. I speak with him pretty much at every show. Both military guys that got straight to the point on the topic immediately.

edit: I am not upset with anyone making tripods, or ballheads, or the rails. That is just like getting mad at chassis manufacturers, car manufacturers. I am talking, trying to exactly imitate the product for the sake of taking money away from that product.
 
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#5
I get it for the casual photographer or shooter that's not looking to spend big dollars on a tripod. There's an knock off that's significantly less and looks just like the big boys. May not perform 100% but that guys isn't pushing the capabilities any way. HE doesn't care who designed it or who made it.

I do wonder how much this actually hurts sale though. The guys buying a knock off doesn't typically have the budget for a real one... he'd be buying a cheap tripod no matter what and the serious shoot knows that these are knock off and isn't their buying junk.

The issue I have is like with the Altas bipods where the Chinese are engraving ATLAS on the knock off... that's for me where the line is. Using the SOAR name is BS or marking these with the RRS part number.

All knock off are bad b/c of the theft of IP rights... you guys engineered a solution or improves upon an existing solution. All of that design time take a tremendous amount of resources. They just make a 1 for 1 copy and bring it to market with lower wages and unknown material.
 
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#7
Their new series of leveling bases look identical to the RRS product line too. Down to the handle lengths (YB series) and engagement mechanisms (LB series) on two different models.
 
#10
I only showed 5 products but the list is more in the 20s.
A lot of their products have problems so it doesn't hurt as much. But yeah I see a lot of competition shooters and high dollar shooters with them because they are seeing them with other people. So it does hurt us or other manufactures, mainly us since that is what is being copied. .
 
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#13
Kasey said:
Trademarks are the ticket to enforcement. Easy to see and understand with big "per use" penalty. Even Amazon and Ebay will honor trademarks.....
Click to expand...
Hardly. (at least for Amazon). Maglula has been fighting with Amazon for over 3 years trying to keep them from selling Chinese knockoffs of their UpLULA mag loaders. The knockoff criminals even put the Maglula name on it including patent numbers. Only a problem with the product and sending photos to Maglula confirmed it to be a knockoff. Because of the Amazon response to me about this, my Amazon purchases have dropped by about 95% over the past year.
 
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#14
nobeone said:
Hardly. (at least for Amazon). Maglula has been fighting with Amazon for over 3 years trying to keep them from selling Chinese knockoffs of their UpLULA mag loaders. The knockoff criminals even put the Maglula name on it including patent numbers. Only a problem with the product and sending photos to Maglula confirmed it to be a knockoff. Because of the Amazon response to me about this, my Amazon purchases have dropped by about 95% over the past year.
Click to expand...

There's a reason why Nike doesn't sell anything on Amazon. Amazon wouldn't do anything to get rid of the counterfeit Nike products, and Nike didn't feel like competing against all the knock-offs on there and pulled the plug.
 
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#15
And I suppose the only way to beat these fucks is to just “stay the course” and “do the next right thing” and hope the quality of your product drives out the shitty one? Blows my god damn mind how there is no recourse for shit like this.
 
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#16
Unfortunately, the best you can do is what B&T does. Run an information campaign. Just like you have done here, and on all other popular websites that use RRS equipment.
Like has been mentioned though, if people can't afford RRS, they aren't going to buy RRS.

Personally, I like to save my money for the real thing. Saved money for an Atlas CAL, then bought two rails and a clamp with adapter. I'm already planning my next purchase for later this year.

I have been buying less from Amazon, and buying more direct from the manufacturer these days. Even if it's on Midway or Brownells. I just can't trust Amazon to not mix up knockoffs with the real thing, and don't want to support them when they don't do anything to help protect good companies intellectual property.
 
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#17
I'm the guy @bribassguy is talking about. I don't shoot comps. If I shoot 1000 precision rifle rounds a year its because I fell into extra time off and money. I have no need to spend the extra money (that I usually don't have) for the top 'o the line equipment. I've actually been looking at budget tripod setups recently.

But, I also have morals. Since I don't NEED a tripod anyway, I will either never own one or wait until I can afford one from a stand up company. Especially when that company is from the best nation in the history of ever!!
 
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#23
kthomas said:
There's a reason why Nike doesn't sell anything on Amazon. Amazon wouldn't do anything to get rid of the counterfeit Nike products, and Nike didn't feel like competing against all the knock-offs on there and pulled the plug.
Click to expand...
Not only does Amazon not do anything to get rid of the Chinese knockoffs, they actively let these shysters operate by letting customers think they are buying with quick free shipping until they hit the pay button and find out that the item will ship sometime in the next two weeks from China. Amazon fucks the U.S. and does it with pleasure.

The blatant rip-off of American products is big business and Amazon especially has signed up to be the fence for stolen designs and ingenuity.
 
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#26
deersniper said:
Unions/welfare and all the us regulatory /tax schemes are most of the reason companies go outside the us
Click to expand...

Not quite, but that's the sort of reductionism that prevents us from finding real solutions.

I don't want to take away from the OP's message, though. I'm fortunate enough to be able to afford the real thing; if fewer people would cut their own throat to save a few dollars, then a lot more of us would be in a position to afford the real thing. It may be too late to turn that back around, but I'm damn not ready to give up yet.
 
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#27
Nobody bitches until it hurts their bottom dollar. I didn't see one U.S. personnel complain about shopping at the haji Mart in Iraq. That's bootleg city... Just imagine if RRS could develop a quality product the lay-man could afford. They wouldnt have prestige for outpricing everyone... But everyone would have them.
 
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#28
magtech said:
Just imagine if RRS could develop a quality product the lay-man could afford. They wouldnt have prestige for outpricing everyone... But everyone would have them.
Click to expand...

They already have a quality product that the average man could afford. The price is so fucking ridiculous because our dumbass pays it. Just think back 6-7 years ago before tripods became so popular in PRS, or any form of precision shooting. If you told someone that they needed to spend $1500+ on a tripod setup to shoot with, your ass would have been laughed right off the firing line and most likely right out of the fucking match because most people would have thought you were smoking dope. If you can honestly say that spending that much money on a tripod is “normal” you have lost your fucking mind. So many of us (yes I said us, me included) have them now though, so the price is accepted as the norm, instead of the ridiculousness that it truly is. I have RRS products and I love them. They are quality. But don’t lie to yourself and say that 364C Leofoto tripod that the guy beside you is using isn’t 98.9% just as good as the RRS model you have. I’ve spent a fair amount of time shooting off both side by side and the knock off performs in every category except for weight.
 
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#30
For some though it's educational. I am just getting into wanting a tripod more seriously and have always heard RRS was the best but didn't realize how much the competitors behind them were knockoffs rather than real competitors. I will be buying RRS when the time comes and this thread gave me more information to move me toward that decision. As a poster said, information campaigns can be helpful.
 
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#31
nobeone said:
Hardly. (at least for Amazon). Maglula has been fighting with Amazon for over 3 years trying to keep them from selling Chinese knockoffs of their UpLULA mag loaders. The knockoff criminals even put the Maglula name on it including patent numbers. Only a problem with the product and sending photos to Maglula confirmed it to be a knockoff. Because of the Amazon response to me about this, my Amazon purchases have dropped by about 95% over the past year.
Click to expand...


I have no idea about that. Is Maglula American made? One problem is American companies that go to China for manufacturing which opens another avenue for unauthorized copies..... Regardless, Amazon sucks, they are the largest marketplace for counterfeit goods. We have been fighting counterfeits for 5-6 years and today if anyone posts up a counterfeit that is marked with our trademark "Atlas" we submit it and it is removed. We are the manufacturers not a consumer. HOWEVER that seller takes another picture of the back, not engraved side and posts it back up and Amazon does nothing. Amazon sucks they get zero of my dollars.
 
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#33
trevor300wsm said:
They already have a quality product that the average man could afford. The price is so fucking ridiculous because our dumbass pays it. Just think back 6-7 years ago before tripods became so popular in PRS, or any form of precision shooting. If you told someone that they needed to spend $1500+ on a tripod setup to shoot with, your ass would have been laughed right off the firing line and most likely right out of the fucking match because most people would have thought you were smoking dope. If you can honestly say that spending that much money on a tripod is “normal” you have lost your fucking mind. So many of us (yes I said us, me included) have them now though, so the price is accepted as the norm, instead of the ridiculousness that it truly is. I have RRS products and I love them. They are quality. But don’t lie to yourself and say that 364C Leofoto tripod that the guy beside you is using isn’t 98.9% just as good as the RRS model you have. I’ve spent a fair amount of time shooting off both side by side and the knock off performs in every category except for weight.
Click to expand...
Honest questions - do you work in product design, manufacturing, or quality? Do you think that a company like RRS is bending the consumer over with sky high profit margins? I could be wrong, but I don't believe that to be the case. I also don't believe RRS was selling tripods and ballheads for the photography market (which they did for many years prior to their SOAR line existing) for the same price as a Leofoto or PIG tripod, then jacking the price up "just because it's for shooting" as you seem to be implying.

One thing I think people fail to recognize - ESPECIALLY in cases like this and with @Kasey 's B&T Atlas bipods - is just how much time and resources (R&D, financial, employee) it takes to DEVELOP the products that other companies then infringe on. It might take a month, a year, or a decade to design, prototype, refine, manufacture, patent, etc a great product. That time and money has to be built into a product's price for the company to become successful and remain in business. Just because a tripod costs $500 in material, machining, and coating to make, but sells for $1500 doesn't mean they didn't have to spend $20 million to build a facility to make the tripod in the first place rather than outsourcing it to China. Or pay people living wages with benefits IN AMERICA.

I dunno, this topic ruffles my feathers I guess. I'll be the first to admit I use companies like Amazon for household goods, and have an iPhone in my pocket. But I will go out of my way to support innovators like AI, B&T, Vudoo, RRS, etc, even if it means paying a perceived "premium" for their products. Lining the pockets of rip-off artists, whether domestic or international, has zero interest to me even if it would mean more money stays in my bank account.
 
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#35
deersniper said:
Just remember if it wasn’t for people buying RRS we wouldn’t have things like anvil30s, standardized Arca, etc.
Click to expand...

MAYBE, MAYBE NOT. This for me is the the part that is interesting. While RRS is driving some evolution they are also participating in some the same activities that they are complaining about. Mostly recycling designs. Everything you listed existed in a very similar form prior to the RRS version.

The RRS Rail was not devolved by them. It was developed by a company called Arca-Swiss back in 1990s and since then has been popularized as “Arca-Swiss Quick Release System" that has been the standard in the photography world for years. The original Arca-Swiss plate and clamps (as on the Arca-Swiss B1 ballhead) were followed very closely by most Eurpoean / Asian manufacturers such as Markins, Giotto, Vanguard, Sunwayfoto, Leofoto, etc. These generally feature a thinner plate with a shallow V-groove with a 45 degree included angle, so the plate can only be mounted from the bottom into a clamp.

North American guys such as Kirk Enterprises, Jobru, Really Right Stuff, Acra-Tech have moved long ago away from the original design and have adopted a different 'standard'. Plates appear to be sourced from commonly available 1.5" wide by 3/8" aluminum stock (give or take) and (usually) have a full 90 degree V-groove (dovetail) on the edges of the plates. This allows the clamps to be installed on the bottom or the top of the plate. RRS took an existing design, slapped some tolerances on it, and called it their own. Their version was a little more nuanced and they brought some value to the table by publishing their standard. As the "Standard" is a little loosey goosey. The cynical view would be that are attempting to drive a standard in order to win market share in a newly devolving market. The more times people see RRS rail vs Arca-Swiss rail the more likely they are to head over to the RRS SOAR site to see what else they offer.

Some argue that it's incrementally better than the Arca-Swiss standard in that the RRS level clamp was mated to the RRS rail. It clamps tight and no adjustment is needed where as the original Arca-Swiss lever had a dial to adjust the amount of tension and to accept other manufacture spec rails.

The Anvil 30 "breakthrough" looks a whole lot like the Arca-Swiss P0 monoball head which pre-dated the anvil by YEARS. Here's a review from 7 year ago. Again not a direct knock off but not an original idea either.

It's not a direct copy like the Leofoto but it's not an original either. The point being that as with most industries you have a few innovators but the people with the best marketing teams typically get the credit.



1578406976992.png


blog.mingthein.com

Ultimate tripod heads, part two: the Arca-Swiss P0 Monoball

The P0 Monoball; Manfrotto 394 RC4 QR plate is for me to standardize my connectors across heads, and also because the QR version of this head costs nearly 50% more than the standard one – you…
blog.mingthein.com blog.mingthein.com

Here's a more blatant copy from RRS... the scope leveler. It's the closest example to what they are complaining about... an nearly exact replica.

RRS
rrs.jpg


Original: Arisaka Optic
orig.jpg




The make great stuff that is manufactured whenever possible, in the U.S.A. and sold to consumers at a premium. They are targeting the professional and high end users. but there are others out there making great gear that don't have the marketing success that RRS does in the shooting world. They are one of the few photography, if not the only, companies to actively target the shooting community but not the only ones making great gear.

We all vote with our dollars, you want more manufactures in the US then you should buy the stuff made in the US.
 

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#36
Tucker301 said:
I know it's not your intention, but this thread is likely driving curious buyers to the cheater's site in droves right now.
Click to expand...
Doubtful. Those that are buying the knockoffs where never in the RRS market share to begin with.

If you want the best performance out of your gear, and want to be confident that your equipment will not fail you in a match/mission/whatever, you buy nice or you buy twice. It boggles my mind how some guys will cheap out on gear (think optics or rings), then spend $100's of dollars on multiple two day matches throughout the year, and airfare/mileage, hotels, food on the road, and then come off the line saying they think their misses was because their scope was acting up.

Obviously the cost of a lot of these goods are out of reach for some people. Concessions are made and to shoot lots and/or big matches, they live with the fact that they have fiddly gear. My goal is to have the best gear I can afford and KNOW WITHOUT A DOUBT, that the miss was my mistake. You let ammo, scope, torque values, rings, etc creep into you head during a match and you will wind up chasing problems instead of points.
 
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#37
samb300 said:
Honest questions - do you work in product design, manufacturing, or quality? Do you think that a company like RRS is bending the consumer over with sky high profit margins? I could be wrong, but I don't believe that to be the case. I also don't believe RRS was selling tripods and ballheads for the photography market (which they did for many years prior to their SOAR line existing) for the same price as a Leofoto or PIG tripod, then jacking the price up "just because it's for shooting" as you seem to be implying.

One thing I think people fail to recognize - ESPECIALLY in cases like this and with @Kasey 's B&T Atlas bipods - is just how much time and resources (R&D, financial, employee) it takes to DEVELOP the products that other companies then infringe on. It might take a month, a year, or a decade to design, prototype, refine, manufacture, patent, etc a great product. That time and money has to be built into a product's price for the company to become successful and remain in business. Just because a tripod costs $500 in material, machining, and coating to make, but sells for $1500 doesn't mean they didn't have to spend $20 million to build a facility to make the tripod in the first place rather than outsourcing it to China. Or pay people living wages with benefits IN AMERICA.

I dunno, this topic ruffles my feathers I guess. I'll be the first to admit I use companies like Amazon for household goods, and have an iPhone in my pocket. But I will go out of my way to support innovators like AI, B&T, Vudoo, RRS, etc, even if it means paying a perceived "premium" for their products. Lining the pockets of rip-off artists, whether domestic or international, has zero interest to me even if it would mean more money stays in my bank account.
Click to expand...
deersniper said:
I doubt a knockoff is going to be as stable or more importantly as durable
Click to expand...

I can only speak in regards to the tripod, not the heads. I’ve never shot off a knock off head.

Actually I do know a little, not a lot, about product design, R&D, etc....for a product that many many people in this community are using right now. Anytime this general topic gets brought up on this forum, that’s the first thing people start throwing out there to defend the high price of an item.....cost of R&D.
 
#39
trevor300wsm said:
I can only speak in regards to the tripod, not the heads. I’ve never shot off a knock off head.

Actually I do know a little, not a lot, about product design, R&D, etc....for a product that many many people in this community are using right now. Anytime this general topic gets brought up on this forum, that’s the first thing people start throwing out there to defend the high price of an item.....cost of R&D.
Click to expand...
I don't think it's a matter of "defending" the perceived high price of an item. I would obviously prefer a RRS rig to cost $500, an AI to cost $1500, and an F-150 Raptor to cost $20,000. But that's not what they cost, and it's up to me as the consumer to decide if I want to (and can afford to) support that company by buying their product. And unfortunately no, I can't afford a Raptor haha

Does a company's balance sheet upset you one way or the other? If a company is healthy and has a 12% profit margin, would you rather see them slash prices, have lower margins, and end up going out of business because they didn't have the cash to develop new products?

R&D is just part of it. Some companies are built on a $5,000 initial investment and go from there. Others take hundreds of millions to develop a product (like a car or smart phone). For smaller companies, working on a new product might mean there aren't enough resources to support current products. Or having a prototype made (cough...custom AI chassis haha) costs a lot of money that comes out of pocket.
 
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#40
bribassguy said:
MAYBE, MAYBE NOT. This for me is the the part that is interesting. While RRS is driving some evolution they are also participating in some the same activities that they are complaining about. Mostly recycling designs. Everything you listed existed in a very similar form prior to the RRS version.

The RRS Rail was not devolved by them. It was developed by a company called Arca-Swiss back in 1990s and since then has been popularized as “Arca-Swiss Quick Release System" that has been the standard in the photography world for years. The original Arca-Swiss plate and clamps (as on the Arca-Swiss B1 ballhead) were followed very closely by most Eurpoean / Asian manufacturers such as Markins, Giotto, Vanguard, Sunwayfoto, Leofoto, etc. These generally feature a thinner plate with a shallow V-groove with a 45 degree included angle, so the plate can only be mounted from the bottom into a clamp.

North American guys such as Kirk Enterprises, Jobru, Really Right Stuff, Acra-Tech have moved long ago away from the original design and have adopted a different 'standard'. Plates appear to be sourced from commonly available 1.5" wide by 3/8" aluminum stock (give or take) and (usually) have a full 90 degree V-groove (dovetail) on the edges of the plates. This allows the clamps to be installed on the bottom or the top of the plate. RRS took an existing design, slapped some tolerances on it, and called it their own. Their version was a little more nuanced and they brought some value to the table by publishing their standard. As the "Standard" is a little loosey goosey. The cynical view would be that are attempting to drive a standard in order to win market share in a newly devolving market. The more times people see RRS rail vs Arca-Swiss rail the more likely they are to head over to the RRS SOAR site to see what else they offer.

Some argue that it's incrementally better than the Arca-Swiss standard in that the RRS level clamp was mated to the RRS rail. It clamps tight and no adjustment is needed where as the original Arca-Swiss lever had a dial to adjust the amount of tension and to accept other manufacture spec rails.

The Anvil 30 "breakthrough" looks a whole lot like the Arca-Swiss P0 monoball head which pre-dated the anvil by YEARS. Here's a review from 7 year ago. Again not a direct knock off but not an original idea either.

It's not a direct copy like the Leofoto but it's not an original either. The point being that as with most industries you have a few innovators but the people with the best marketing teams typically get the credit.



View attachment 7219282

blog.mingthein.com

Ultimate tripod heads, part two: the Arca-Swiss P0 Monoball

The P0 Monoball; Manfrotto 394 RC4 QR plate is for me to standardize my connectors across heads, and also because the QR version of this head costs nearly 50% more than the standard one – you…
blog.mingthein.com blog.mingthein.com

The make great stuff that is manufactured whenever possible, in the U.S.A. and sold to consumers at a premium. They are targeting the professional and high end users. but there are others out there making great gear that don't have the marketing success that RRS does in the shooting world. They are one of the few photography, if not the only, companies to actively target the shooting community but not the only ones making great gear.

We all vote with our dollars, you want more manufactures in the US then you should buy the stuff made in the US.
Click to expand...

As far as Arca goes they provided a standard and published the prints. Similar to what AAC did for the 300 whisper.
I don’t see anyone else making mid mount Arca plates for DT and AI. Not sure if anyone else is making headclamps and bipod clamps that take both picatinny and Arca.
 
#41
The above pics are a flat out rip-off, period. And RRS has every right to be pissed and seek legal remedies, if possible.

But I must say, I purchased a Leofoto tripod last year and have been pleased with it and have no shame in it. For my needs I didn't need to spend $1K+. Besides, tripods have been made for what, 100+ years? It's just 3 legs attached to a base. Sure, there have been improvements in weight, materials, etc. But nothing truly revolutionary that one can claim it is their exclusive creation.
 
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#43
Arc Light said:
The above pics are a flat out rip-off, period. And RRS has every right to be pissed and seek legal remedies, if possible.

But I must say, I purchased a Leofoto tripod last year and have been pleased with it and have no shame in it. For my needs I didn't need to spend $1K+. Besides, tripods have been made for what, 100+ years? It's just 3 legs attached to a base. Sure, there have been improvements in weight, materials, etc. But nothing truly revolutionary that one can claim it is their exclusive creation.
Click to expand...
Why not save even more, and tie 3 sticks together?
 
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#44
Former Nike product R&D guy here.......I feel your pain. I'm at a tech startup now and I can tell you that your patent portfolio is key to stopping this bullshit.

Some questions for RRS:
-Do you folks file design patents? If not, perhaps you should. Either way, I'd go after Leophoto with gloves off. Hopefully RRS has sent letters to Leophoto and B&H regarding their actions and legal consequences.
-Do you know who specifically is importing the Leofoto knockoffs? I know B&H sells the crap out of them.
-Have you contacted the US Dept of Commerce? Or your state representative. It's a time-suck but it can pay off in the long run.

Lawyers-.....well, they suck. Hire a good one and go after the people selling the Leophoto crap.
PM me, I know some decent attorneys....and yes, I know how unlikely that sounds.
 
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#47
Hollywood 6mm said:
Making a similar, but competing, product is one thing - that's competition, and it's good for both the industry and the customer.

Making a direct copy of someone else's product is a different story....
Click to expand...

As you say, it's a very important distinction between the two.

Before I could care less if people were spending their dollars on Leofoto. Now that they are blatantly copying another brand, I can't support that in any capacity.
 
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#48
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