WTF barrel worms?

Sako man · Dec 22, 2021

Ok, the title is a joke, but check this out. From my AIAX barrel, it used to shoot one shot on top of the next, now the groups have opened up, it still shoots good but just not 1/4 moa anymore. WTF did I do, was this from rust? Overpressure? I have never oiled my barrels and was this from erosion? Whats the copper color stuff, is that copper or rust? Gunsmiths chime in please.

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Travis224 · Dec 22, 2021

Damn! Not a Smith so I'm super curious myself. I almost speculate bad steel in the stock itself.

Threadcutter308 · Dec 22, 2021

Sako man said:
Ok, the title is a joke, but check this out. From my AIAX barrel, it used to shoot one shot on top of the next, now the groups have opened up, it still shoots good but just not 1/4 moa anymore. WTF did I do, was this from rust? Overpressure? I have never oiled my barrels and was this from erosion? Whats the copper color stuff, is that copper or rust? Gunsmiths chime in please.

View attachment 7767379 View attachment 7767380 View attachment 7767381

Start your air compressor, get it up to pressure, blow the CLEANING PATCH LINT out of the barrel.....

Optional; re-scope for a waste of time.

Sako man · Dec 23, 2021

Threadcutter308 said:
Start your air compressor, get it up to pressure, blow the CLEANING PATCH LINT out of the barrel.....

Optional; re-scope for a waste of time.

Please elaborate, is that lint that has somehow pitted the barrel? What it looks like to me is erosion?

KnowNothing256 · Dec 23, 2021

Sako man said:
Please elaborate, is that lint that has somehow pitted the barrel? What it looks like to me is erosion?

No, he’s saying it’s lint, not etching. Which I don’t believe, but it’s easy to check. Run another patch dry and see if those spots move, clear up, and/or change.

Copper color in a streak along the bore is almost always copper. Rust in the bore won’t look smooth, and a few passes with a bronze brush will knock it out, basically.

Looks to me like pitting from corrosion, can’t explain the pattern though. Chime back in with your findings after you run another dry patch and re-scope.

Midwestside · Dec 23, 2021

Maybe a charge from a barrel cooler battery Lichtenberg’d your tube?
Okay, not really, but I wouldn’t mind starting that ridiculous rumor anyhow, so that annoying buzz is less prevalent in my electronic ear pro’ at matches

Sako man · Dec 23, 2021

KnowNothing256 said:
No, he’s saying it’s lint, not etching. Which I don’t believe, but it’s easy to check. Run another patch dry and see if those spots move, clear up, and/or change.

Copper color in a streak along the bore is almost always copper. Rust in the bore won’t look smooth, and a few passes with a bronze brush will knock it out, basically.

Looks to me like pitting from corrosion, can’t explain the pattern though. Chime back in with your findings after you run another dry patch and re-scope.

Don't think there is any way it could be lint. I have scrubbed that barrel down with a nylon brush, I am certain it's pitted, just wondering from what???

MJC · Dec 23, 2021

I have one that looks very similar and it was rust that caused it. Rough spots tend to collect copper.

Threadcutter308 · Dec 23, 2021

Sako man said:
Please elaborate, is that lint that has somehow pitted the barrel? What it looks like to me is erosion?

I'll bet $10 it's lint, I've seen it before. Look at the bottom of the bottom picture. See how the lint lays over the top of the striations of the barrel ? Lint isn't going to "pit" a barrel. No offense intended, but I'm also willing to bet this may be the first time you've scoped your barrel. This is why so many people are against barrel scopes. Additionally, many barrels look like shit, but shoot lights out.

Something else that should make you feel better.....I've been there, done that, got the T-shirt. My barrel scope comes out of the tool box rarely anymore. I've spent a lot of time chasing Goblins because of it. It's not a bad tool, but one has to know how to interpret the information the tool is providing.

Blow out the barrel and post your results, particularly if I'm wrong. It always helps closing the loop, good or bad.

Hondo1 · Dec 23, 2021

Almost looks like it came from an electric current, pretty crazy. In the last pic it looks like material is lifted as if delaminating.

Sako man · Dec 23, 2021

Threadcutter308 said:
I'll bet $10 it's lint, I've seen it before. Look at the bottom of the bottom picture. See how the lint lays over the top of the striations of the barrel ? Lint isn't going to "pit" a barrel. No offense intended, but I'm also willing to bet this may be the first time you've scoped your barrel. This is why so many people are against barrel scopes. Additionally, many barrels look like shit, but shoot lights out.

Something else that should make you feel better.....I've been there, done that, got the T-shirt. My barrel scope comes out of the tool box rarely anymore. I've spent a lot of time chasing Goblins because of it. It's not a bad tool, but one has to know how to interpret the information the tool is providing.

Blow out the barrel and post your results, particularly if I'm wrong. It always helps closing the loop, good or bad.

Deal!

Sako man · Dec 23, 2021

MJC said:
I have one that looks very similar and it was rust that caused it. Rough spots tend to collect copper.

How's it shoot?

Hennig · Dec 23, 2021

Threadcutter308 said:
I'll bet $10 it's lint, I've seen it before. Look at the bottom of the bottom picture. See how the lint lays over the top of the striations of the barrel ? Lint isn't going to "pit" a barrel. No offense intended, but I'm also willing to bet this may be the first time you've scoped your barrel. This is why so many people are against barrel scopes. Additionally, many barrels look like shit, but shoot lights out.

Something else that should make you feel better.....I've been there, done that, got the T-shirt. My barrel scope comes out of the tool box rarely anymore. I've spent a lot of time chasing Goblins because of it. It's not a bad tool, but one has to know how to interpret the information the tool is providing.

Blow out the barrel and post your results, particularly if I'm wrong. It always helps closing the loop, good or bad.

If that top picture is lint, with the copper streak running through it, then Ill wear a sign saying "Im a Fucking Retard" around my neck for the entire Christmas period.

msgriff · Dec 23, 2021

Is it a stainless steel barrel?

MJC · Dec 23, 2021

Sako man said:
How's it shoot?

It's a Rem. 700 30-06 deer rifle with a plastic stock. LOL! That being said I can't see any degradation in the accuracy from when it was new but I never shoot more than just a few rounds prior to hunting season to check the zero so I can't say what it would do if more shots were fired.

Bigrederic · Dec 23, 2021

This sadly is nothing new.... It seems like it comes up from time to time and the consensus has been that this normally hasn't been shown to effect accuracy. I find it hard to believe myself that it cant cause adverse effect. Further I would be willing to guess that it is more common with button riffling then cut rifling.

Sako man · Dec 23, 2021

msgriff said:
Is it a stainless steel barrel?

Not sure, I don't think so. Pre 2014 AIAX factory barrel.

mick243 · Dec 23, 2021

It looks a whole lot like “filiform corrosion” - normally associated with painted or otherwise encapsulated surfaces, so no idea how it got there

rope · Dec 23, 2021

Pattern reminds me of what it looks like when crystals form. Can this be a chemical crystals/pattern etching? Can the dark be carbon build up and thats not why it in all the channel and why it looks like its lifting in places?

End of day if the accuracy is acceptable, why worry. Being its a hunting rifle doubtful that any animal is going to wake up from the dead to complain.

longebow · Dec 23, 2021

Looks like barrel etching to me. What type of barrel solvents do you use? I have learned to NEVER leave any solvent in a barrel overnight due to prior etching from some products. YMMV...

22lfb · Dec 23, 2021

I have seen these patterns in old water pumps, caused by cavitation. There might be a similar effect going on here. Maybe from oil in the bore!? Or just an issue with the structure of the steel in those areas?

Steel head · Dec 23, 2021

I’ve had that on a barrel and it has been shown here a few times, it was explained to me as corrosion.
I think it was carbon attracting moisture in an environment with some humidity.

j-huskey · Dec 23, 2021

This looks like etching.

Etching is caused by a chemical reaction on the metal.

I had it happen to me on a couple of barrels I left shooters choice cleaner in.

Will definitely happen if you leave an ammonia based cleaner in.

Used to be you could leave old hoppes in the barrel.... used to be.

Definitely could leave WW2 and Korean War Era bore cleaner bc it was kerosene based.

Today, if you want to leave something in the bore, I recommend Kroil.

Etching fills with copper after the first shot, and after that, normally, normally doesn't affect accuracy.

Best to yall.

deersniper · Dec 23, 2021

j-huskey said:
Today, if you want to leave something in the bore, I recommend Kroil.

Or wipe out

Steel head · Dec 23, 2021

deersniper said:
Or wipe out

Good stuff!

Criver600 · Dec 23, 2021

Hahahahahahaha, Badly carbon and copper fouled, its entirely a lack of CLEANING. It might clean up and be fine our you may have fucked it up and need a new barrel!

rijndael · Dec 23, 2021

Midwestside said:
Maybe a charge from a barrel cooler battery Lichtenberg’d your tube?

lichtenberg is what came to my mind as well

Dogtown · Dec 23, 2021

Criver600 said:
Hahahahahahaha, Badly carbon and copper fouled, its entirely a lack of CLEANING. It might clean up and be fine our you may have fucked it up and need a new barrel!

Holliday · Dec 23, 2021

Threadcutter308 said:
Start your air compressor, get it up to pressure, blow the CLEANING PATCH LINT out of the barrel.....

Optional; re-scope for a waste of time.

msgriff · Dec 23, 2021

Could be sulphur precipitating out if it's SS.

Frank Green · Dec 23, 2021

It's pitting/etching.

Gun/barrel is from 2014 or before? How many rounds on the barrel? What cleaners have you been using, type of ammo/powder etc...

Guys...even the SS barrels if you let them sit long enough with out cleaning and depending on the environment can have an effect on how long it can take...but they will pit...they will corrode! I guarantee it. The barrels are not made out of surgical stainless.

The type of cleaner you are using etc...and how your doing it can be the cause as well.

Put a drop of blood on the outside of the barrel. Wipe it off after a couple of days...pitting and corrosion will have started.

The orange color stuff is copper from the bullets.

Yes this type of etching/pitting will also cause accuracy issues as well.

5R rifling as well. Most likely our barrel the OP has.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

Gohring65 · Dec 23, 2021

I say, go ahead and order another barrel.
I would just shoot it, let it fill with copper and roll til you can’t accept the accuracy no more.

Rebarrel

Rinse and repeat.

Also, are you chasing the lands.
It may not be that etching opening groups up.

deersniper · Dec 23, 2021

Bet some truck /ranch guns suffer from this.

I know that environment is hell on external finishes

KnowNothing256 · Dec 23, 2021

deersniper said:
Bet some truck /ranch guns suffer from this.

I know that environment is hell on external finishes

Yeah, I'm pretty committed to cerakoted or stainless now for that reason. Got tired of wiping rust off my hunting guns, didn't matter how careful I was to oil them.

Fig · Dec 23, 2021

Oiling the outside of a firearm doesn’t do shit.

Sako man · Dec 23, 2021

longebow said:
Looks like barrel etching to me. What type of barrel solvents do you use? I have learned to NEVER leave any solvent in a barrel overnight due to prior etching from some products. YMMV...

Just some M-Pro-7 de carbonizer, so not really solvent, and a patch. I don't like to use anything strong in my barrels. The etching could have been in there for years and I just now noticed?

Holliday · Dec 23, 2021

Fig said:
Oiling the outside of a firearm doesn’t do shit.

I use that. Used by museums on a variety of materials. Good stuff.

Sako man · Dec 23, 2021

Frank Green said:
It's pitting/etching.

Gun/barrel is from 2014 or before? How many rounds on the barrel? What cleaners have you been using, type of ammo/powder etc...

Guys...even the SS barrels if you let them sit long enough with out cleaning and depending on the environment can have an effect on how long it can take...but they will pit...they will corrode! I guarantee it. The barrels are not made out of surgical stainless.

The type of cleaner you are using etc...and how your doing it can be the cause as well.

Put a drop of blood on the outside of the barrel. Wipe it off after a couple of days...pitting and corrosion will have started.

The orange color stuff is copper from the bullets.

Yes this type of etching/pitting will also cause accuracy issues as well.

5R rifling as well. Most likely our barrel the OP has.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

Ok, thank you. Barrel is pre 2014. I got it used so not sure how many rounds. There were long periods of time where the barrel was uncleaned, but generally I have only used a gentle carbon solvent in the barrel M-Pro-7. I think it's either from neglect, or probably me not cleaning the barrel properly. Time to be more aware of how I maintain my barrels. As mentioned this could have been going on for years and I just didn't notice. Next barrel will be less neglected.

I did have a theory that perhaps there was moisture in the barrel and when shot the liquid compressed against the metal at super high pressures and caused the damage. Someone had mentioned cavitation. I will accept any theory at this point. But once again, and to your point the barrel did sit uncleaned for a long time, so you are most likely right, I'm sure, after all it's your field.

Sako man · Dec 23, 2021

Dogtown said:
View attachment 7767585

My stapler?

Milf Dots · Dec 23, 2021

Frank Green · Dec 23, 2021

Fig said:
Oiling the outside of a firearm doesn’t do shit.

I leave a light patch of regular Hoppe’s NO.9 in the bore of the barrel when I put it away. It protects as good as any oil etc…and never had a issue with pitting or any damage done to the bore.

Ravenworks · Dec 23, 2021

deersniper said:
Or wipe out

Or
ED'S RED

Frank Green · Dec 23, 2021

Sako man said:
Ok, thank you. Barrel is pre 2014. I got it used so not sure how many rounds. There were long periods of time where the barrel was uncleaned, but generally I have only used a gentle carbon solvent in the barrel M-Pro-7. I think it's either from neglect, or probably me not cleaning the barrel properly. Time to be more aware of how I maintain my barrels. As mentioned this could have been going on for years and I just didn't notice. Next barrel will be less neglected.

I did have a theory that perhaps there was moisture in the barrel and when shot the liquid compressed against the metal at super high pressures and caused the damage. Someone had mentioned cavitation. I will accept any theory at this point. But once again, and to your point the barrel did sit uncleaned for a long time, so you are most likely right, I'm sure, after all it's your field.

I’ll say no to a liquid/moisture being in the bore and being compressed when it was shot. That I’ve never seen.

but you do bring up a reminder to me….everytime you shoot the gun…when the bullet leaves the bore it creates a suction and sucks in the outside air. Whatever is in the air gets brought into the bore of the barrel as well.

So when you leave the bore of the barrel sit for an extended period of time..the fouling from the powder etc…will react to moisture and the humidity in the atmosphere. This is where and when the problems like this seem to happen.

I’ve had a few customers over the years who put the guns away dirty and guess what. They lived really close to the ocean. Just imagine all that salt/mositure in the air and what it’s doing.

About a year ago one customer got lucky. He shot his rifle for around 700 rounds and never cleaned it. When he took the muzzle brake off once he did finally clean it…and he started getting the carbon off the face of the crown…it was all pitted. Where he got lucky was there was no pitting inside the bore and the gun still shot great.

This is where this stuff is weird…we cannot always replicate what happens from one shooter to the next. Just too many variables but a lot of similarities.

Just had a barrel sent to the metallurgical lab a month back. It had what looked like voids in the material. Looked like random pits in it. What the lab found out was it was actually little mounds built up. As tall as .004” of an inch. The build up had traces of chlorine in it. I know the s/n and heat lot that barrel came out of. It’s the only barrel out of that whole lot that had any sort of an issue. So I’ll rule out it was the steel and it didn’t leave the shop looking like that. I’ve ever seen anything like it at all. The gun manufacturer nor us can figure out how or where chlorine would‘ve come from. Now start thinking of things beyond our and the gun makers control once it’s out of our hands.

Later, Frank

Frank Green · Dec 23, 2021

Also to the OP. There is no way to save that barrel. I’ve tried finish lapping barrels like that to clean them up…and it will to some extent but you never get it all out.

TxWelder35 · Dec 23, 2021

Frank Green said:
I’ll say no to a liquid/moisture being in the bore and being compressed when it was shot. That I’ve never seen.

but you do bring up a reminder to me….everytime you shoot the gun…when the bullet leaves the bore it creates a suction and sucks in the outside air. Whatever is in the air gets brought into the bore of the barrel as well.

So when you leave the bore of the barrel sit for an extended period of time..the fouling from the powder etc…will react to moisture and the humidity in the atmosphere. This is where and when the problems like this seem to happen.

I’ve had a few customers over the years who put the guns away dirty and guess what. They lived really close to the ocean. Just imagine all that salt/mositure in the air and what it’s doing.

About a year ago one customer got lucky. He shot his rifle for around 700 rounds and never cleaned it. When he took the muzzle brake off once he did finally clean it…and he started getting the carbon off the face of the crown…it was all pitted. Where he got lucky was there was no pitting inside the bore and the gun still shot great.

This is where this stuff is weird…we cannot always replicate what happens from one shooter to the next. Just too many variables but a lot of similarities.

Just had a barrel sent to the metallurgical lab a month back. It had what looked like voids in the material. Looked like random pits in it. What the lab found out was it was actually little mounds built up. As tall as .004” of an inch. The build up had traces of chlorine in it. I know the s/n and heat lot that barrel came out of. It’s the only barrel out of that whole lot that had any sort of an issue. So I’ll rule out it was the steel and it didn’t leave the shop looking like that. I’ve ever seen anything like it at all. The gun manufacturer nor us can figure out how or where chlorine would‘ve come from. Now start thinking of things beyond our and the gun makers control once it’s out of our hands.

Later, Frank

Tap water and Brake cleaner would be the only things I could think of. Tap water I doubt would be large enough quantities, brake cleaner on the other hand definitely could

Adam B · Dec 23, 2021

Threadcutter308 said:
Start your air compressor, get it up to pressure, blow the CLEANING PATCH LINT out of the barrel.....

Optional; re-scope for a waste of time.

the derp is strong with you

Ledzep · Dec 23, 2021

Seen it before. Also in the camp that's not sure exactly why it happens. A friend/coworker had a 6mm barrel that was shooting very well. He had chambered it himself and bore scoped it after chambering, "break in" (~200 rounds), and cleaning. Everything looked great & shot great. We went a few weeks later to a local match and mid-match he started having serious pressure issues and lots of vertical stringing. He was near book max loads but should not have had issues like he was, and he wasn't having issues in the lead up to the match.

Anyway, we go home, he leaves the gun in the case for like 2 months before he has time and takes it back out to investigate WTF. Bore scopes it now with another 120 rounds and 2 months of time and it has the little etching like the OP's pic. Rifle won't group worth a shit, runs all factory and hand loads hot (flat primer, case head swipes, etc..)... So he stripped it down clean, shot a few rounds, and in those little pits immediately filled up with copper and started leaving copper streaks down the rifling towards the muzzle-- like lots of copper. We don't know when they showed up, if they were the problem or the result, or totally arbitrary... Nonetheless, the solution was to chop the pits off and have a 20" trainer barrel that now shoots very well.

Sako man · Dec 23, 2021

It's defiantly something to do with what I am cleaning them with, how I am storing them, something to do with me. I noticed same thing in one of my SRS barrels, basically my other 308. So.....FUCK! Pardon the French but this is systemic! Ok, what is the procedure to clean my barrels and store them? This is a bummer.

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KnowNothing256 · Dec 23, 2021

Clean them out with whatever solvent gets them carbon-free, then a lubricant that won't dry off. Some follow with a dry patch, but if @Frank Green doesn't then that seems as safe a bet as any. You can use gun oil, Kroil, or any number of CLP-type cleaners, and no shortage of opinions about which is "best."

I feel your pain, I shot my Howa Mini in the dark, air temps were pretty cold, then I tossed it in the case and didn't look at it for a week. Opened the case up to find significant rust on the exterior of the barrel, and the borescope confirmed my fears that it was very much in the bore too. Tossed the barrel without even shooting it, I was so ticked off.

whatsupdoc · Dec 23, 2021

M PRO 7 dont clean worth a crap, I would use 409 before that.

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WTF barrel worms?

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