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I am going to agree here.@Sako man
I think you are barking up the wrong tree. I have had “barrel worms” in a very old hunting gun and a recent barrel. Both are carbon steel, are yours carbon or SS? Anyway, my barrels have never seen M Pro, don’t own the stuff. My WAG (Wild A ss Guess) is it’s from moisture attracted to the powder and/or copper fouling left in the barrel.
I shot an AR class that provided samples of it to everyone. I think its supported by some instructors because of its formula not using specific chemicals that may or may not be known carcinogens (I have no opinion on the validity or lack thereof regarding that statement)I thought the only people using M-Pro7 were doing that because they were shooting corrosive ammo? Guess I'm wrong.
You have to be even more careful with chrome moly steel barrels. They will pit/corrode even faster than the SS barrels.@Sako man
I think you are barking up the wrong tree. I have had “barrel worms” in a very old hunting gun and a recent barrel. Both are carbon steel, are yours carbon or SS? Anyway, my barrels have never seen M Pro, don’t own the stuff. My WAG (Wild A ss Guess) is it’s from moisture attracted to the powder and/or copper fouling left in the barrel.
I did not, I guess that should be next on the list, I am wondering how they will react. I am soaking in Hops 9 for 20 min then whipping it out. Then storing in the safe with some dehumidifier containers. I have some Goldenrod dehumidifier's on the way as well. I'm pretty pissed as my second Tikka barrel is Fubar'd, it used to shoot 1/2 but today it shot about an inch or over.Thanks for the info^ Did you contact them ?
I’m sticking with wipe out and patch out even though it can take a few soakings.
Its too early (and very irresponsible) to be throwing out these kinds of statements, and Mpro7 is a popular product, so its likely going to be seen in higher use, regardless of peoples instance of barrel worms or not.
I’ve got some sitting on my bench now. The bottle is almost empty. No issues yet.Read my comments please, I am not saying that M-Pro 7 caused the issue, I am saying that it contributed and acted as a catalyst under the conditions. I take responsibility for how I have stored my barrels. But....If the stuff worked as it's stated, meaning it has anti corrosive properties then why would I be getting these issues in the barrels I am using it in? It would stop the corrosion correct? But it's not stopping corrosion. Filiform corrosion happens when there is a layer covering the corrosion and it burroughs and creates the specific pattern. I have ruined enough barrels to come to this conclusion. I am not going to just throw this out there and try to ruin the reputation of a product, no point in that. I am basing my assertion on observation, not anyone else's anecdote.
Tell you what, go buy some, use it in your barrels. Let me know what happens. I'm betting you won't do that, because you won't risk loosing a barrel, that's because you know there is a possibility I am correct. You are only guessing that I am mistaken.
Post #76Barrel Worms part Deaux.
I have come to a conclusions that you may want to hear about. In a previous thread, I was noticing some of my high value barrels degrading in accuracy quickly. I decided to scope them and found a common theme amongst the barrels that shot the worst. I had dreaded "barrel worms" or what is referred to as filiform corrosion, image below.
View attachment 7803350
I have seen this issue in several of my barrels, and I now know what is causing this. It's the use of the cleaner called M-Pro 7, inside the bore. When there is carbon built up and NOT completely cleaned out, then covered with M-Pro 7, a chain reaction kicks off, moisture in the air probably contributes. After sitting for a few months filiform corrosion starts to weave it's way outward and under the coating of M-Pro 7.
Here is another barrel below that was only cleaned with M-Pro 7, and nothing else. As you can see the same pattern is starting, albeit not as bad as the totally ruined AI barrel above.
View attachment 7803351
This is the stuff. I am sure people will balk, "it couldn't be that! it's supposed to clean and protect!" Well, it's probably in combination with a lot of things like how the guns are stored and moisture. But the agents in M-Pro 7 are the catalyst. My other barrels that are not cleaned with this stuff, or cleaned at all for that matter do not have the same issues. After months of trying to figure this out, this is my conclusion. As per Frank Green on the site I am now using Hops #9, and chasing it with a lite coat of CLP, hopefully it does the job of stopping any further corrosion. Heaven forbid I would ever destroy any of my Bartlein barrels, that would be a disaster.
View attachment 7803343
I store all my guns/barrels with a light coat of Hoppes in them. I say it protects as good as any oil.I did not, I guess that should be next on the list, I am wondering how they will react. I am soaking in Hops 9 for 20 min then whipping it out. Then storing in the safe with some dehumidifier containers. I have some Goldenrod dehumidifier's on the way as well. I'm pretty pissed as my second Tikka barrel is Fubar'd, it used to shoot 1/2 but today it shot about an inch or over.
I have two gallons from Grandpa. It's my favorite smell, closely related to the premium gasoline odor from the mid 80s. Well, this and Jet A... call me crazy.Is it just me or does anyone else hallucinate after using Hops #9?
I need to try this wipe out stuff perhaps!
Not sure exactly what you are asking in the terms of have I seen it happen? You mean during the barrel making process? I'll say no. Not what is in the pictures at the beginning of this thread.@Frank Green have you ever seen this happen with any Bartlein barrels? I know you try to control the alloys pretty well and work with the mill closely.
Just trying to see if we can expand on what @Kanwhitetails just said.
Also if people don't know Frank Green is Bartlein.
Frank, thanks for the insight, once again, your commitment to this community is truly impossible to put a value on.Not sure exactly what you are asking in the terms of have I seen it happen? You mean during the barrel making process? I'll say no. Not what is in the pictures at the beginning of this thread.
Have I've seen barrels guys have sent in and or brought back after shooting with these barrel worms/pitting/etching in them? Yes. I'll say though it isn't common. Maybe like two a year or so and at times if that.
Hard to say if it's in the steel from when it was made. It's rare and I mean rare we ever find a piece of steel with voids in it from inclusions in the steel. If I had to put a number on it...like maybe 6 barrels in 20 years out of tens of thousands that we've made.
I do feel it's more from cleaning or a lack of cleaning and putting the gun away dirty etc...it's a chemical type reaction.
Just recently I sent a barrel out to the lab. Barrel had like 80 rounds on it. It had what looked like a few random pits in it (not the barrel worm syndrome). When I got the lab report back and the pictures which we're magnified inspected at 200x, 300x and 500x magnification. This is what they found...this is the short version....
The point indications were corrosion tubercles on top of shallow pitting corrosion sites. 2. The tubercles contained sulfur and chlorine as notable elements. The chlorine suggests use of an improper cleaning substance or otherwise unfavorable environment. 3. No indications of voids or porosity within the metal were observed. 4. No issues with the raw material were observed.
So in the first sentence look what it says... (on top of shallow pitting) but they stood proud about +.004" up from the surface. They where not what I though where pits or voids. So where did the chlorine come from?
Later, Frank
They pass it out because its free or they are paid to. Most of these clowns don't know shit about real weapons maintenance.I shot an AR class that provided samples of it to everyone. I think its supported by some instructors because of its formula not using specific chemicals that may or may not be known carcinogens (I have no opinion on the validity or lack thereof regarding that statement)
Cleaning products for guns (like gun lubes) are at a weird point in the market, where marketing has entirely surpassed data, as a reliable source.They pass it out because its free or they are paid to. Most of these clowns don't know shit about real weapons maintenance.
Worrying about carcinogens when you are covered in copper , lead and carbon dust is LOL.
I don't disagree, imperical experiment should be explored.We're at a point where its likely that most of the products on the market perform equally, and more than enough to clean. I dont have enough of a scientific background to prove/disprove one over the other, or the desire (and time) to even attempt to do so. Everyone chooses to believe whatever they want to at this point, regardless of actual data (or lack thereof) to backup those beliefs.
FifyI don't disagree, imperical experiment should be explored.
Most believe because what the marketing team says on the packaging. I did this to my detriment, and over $1500 bucks in barrels.
Then there are some who will hear from word of mouth, anecdotal evidence for products that have been around for years, such as Hops #9, or Wipeout.
Proper ventilation aside, I took an entire evening going through every barrel I have with Frank's protocol. With the addition of good dehumidification I suspect I should be good from here on.
Expensive lessons...
You're essentially still making the same mistake that you're discussing now.I don't disagree, imperical experiment should be explored.
Most believe because what the marketing team says on the packaging. I did this to my detriment, and over $1500 bucks in barrels.
Then there are some who will hear from word of mouth, anecdotal evidence for products that have been around for years, such as Hops #9, or Wipeout.
Proper ventilation aside, I took an entire evening going through every barrel I have with Frank's protocol. With the addition of good humidification I suspect I should be good from here on.
Expensive lessons...
Your welcome!Frank, thanks for the insight, once again, your commitment to this community is truly impossible to put a value on.
Do think you fouling shots will "fill in" those types of pits, or is it something thats a one way street in terms of barrel degradation, if it sets in?
I also emailed your team about the cleaning procedure you mentioned, thanks again, I got a human written response pretty immediately too, which kinda shocked me. Cant wait to order one of your barrels for my next build based on this level of service.
You're arguing just for the sake of arguing. Let us know how that works out for you in life.You're essentially still making the same mistake that you're discussing now.
1. there's still no proof mpro7 did whatever you're saying it did to your barrel. correlation isnt causation.
2. Hoppes #9 isnt anywhere near the same formula it was originally, so saying that its "been around for years" is irrelevant.
Your welcome on the new vocabulary word!Tubercles. I learned another new word today. Thanks Frank.
I'll add this from memory sparked after the fact. The roots didn't show up until the parts had been hardened. Their initial tests were to cut up blocks of raw material and run them through the chemical process line and see what was found. Nothing, they were perfect. Then someone mentioned that when we saw the issue was after some steps were alread completed in the process, including post-machining annealing and subsequent solution hardening. So, a new block was cut up, the pieces hardened, and the chem process was completed. Low and behold, the root like corrosion appeared. This was when the determination was made that it was the softer metals precipitating out during hardening.
The material defect was an expensive discovery. I can't imagine how damaging this could be to a customer of a metal supplier. In this case, they had to find a way to test every part from that lot of material, which needless to say included removing bulkheads and structural pieces from several aircraft already in final assembly. That was a mess. Thankfully we found the issue quickly into using that batch.
Bartlein makes phenominal barrels. Some competitive folks I know spin several to use themselves each year and won't buy anyone else's tubes. Good enough for me.
You're arguing just for the sake of arguing. Let us know how that works out for you in life.
You're arguing just for the sake of arguing. Let us know how that works out for you in life.
Do yourself the favor and go back and read my statements, perhaps you did not, or you are not processing things. I am not holding them solely responsible, because though I had used their product as directed, I provided for a sub optimal storage environment. Though they have an ineffective product, I have accountability.Not really. Im asking you to stop misrepresenting a product causing this issue, until you have actual data that proves it.
If you truly believe MPro7 caused this issue, why are you not holding them responsible for it?
Also, if that was true, why wouldnt we be seeing more instances of this mentioned, outside of this thread? the product isn't only sold to snipershide members.
Because maybe he has integrity and will take responsibility for something he thinks he did.Not really. Im asking you to stop misrepresenting a product causing this issue, until you have actual data that proves it.
If you truly believe MPro7 caused this issue, why are you not holding them responsible for it?
Also, if that was true, why wouldnt we be seeing more instances of this mentioned, outside of this thread? the product isn't only sold to snipershide members.
Transmission fluid!With all things cleaning + barrels: After a while reading upon the topic I have an irresistible urge to throw in the towel and just store my rifles in a vat of Mobil 1.
Maybe after a good internal pressure washing (with oil) lol.
See? I knew I was a genius.Transmission fluid!
Knew a old collector machinegunner. After he ran his guns hard…he came home and had a 55 gallon drum of transmission fluid. As long as the gun didn’t have like a wood stock on it…and after some cleaning…he’d dunk the whole gun into the 55 gallon drum.
I never tried it and off hand don’t know if I’d recommend it but can’t hurt. Trans fluid is great stuff!
Look up Ed’s Red bore cleaner formula. I’ve never tried it but it does have tranny fluid in it as well.
Im not sure what you consider “recently” but cheap bore scopes have been quite common for the last few years. 16,000+ reviews just for one on Amazon.Do yourself the favor and go back and read my statements, perhaps you did not, or you are not processing things. I am not holding them solely responsible, because though I had used their product as directed, I provided for a sub optimal storage environment. Though they have an ineffective product, I have accountability.
The fact of the matter is that until recently few had the access to cheap bore cameras, I suspect there will be more on this subject from others in the future.
That’s funny shit!See? I knew I was a genius.
I'll set up three 55 gallon drums in the living room; one filled with Mobil 1, and the other filled with trannies, uh, I mean transmission fluid, and finally, one with Patch-Out. I'll first dunk the guns, scope and all, into the Patch-Out and leave them for 3 days. Guns with wood will then be stored in Mobil 1, and the non-wood guns will rest with the trannies-mission fluid.
If the wife complains, I'll toss her into one of the drums.
Done. Endorsed by Mr. Green.
I'm gonna be a fricking millionaire! somehow
You need ivermectin just like Rogan did, that’s what the internet said.Ok, the title is a joke, but check this out. From my AIAX barrel, it used to shoot one shot on top of the next, now the groups have opened up, it still shoots good but just not 1/4 moa anymore. WTF did I do, was this from rust? Overpressure? I have never oiled my barrels and was this from erosion? Whats the copper color stuff, is that copper or rust? Gunsmiths chime in please.
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I do not doubt that's the case for most people. I believe I met several conditions that lead to corrosion, possibly a trifecta, one of those being environment/humidity. Possibly being close to a coastal region contributed.I use MPro7/Hoppe’s Elite. I’ve been using it for years. No barrel worms here