“Precision” AR accuracy expectations?

[theLBC]

...

I probably should have stopped after the 4th group, when I had the magical 20rds. Group 4, bottom right was 140eld handloads. All others were Hornady AG 140’s, with group 5 being in the center. I did experience a feed issue during the final group, but I think switching the bullet/powder combo may have impacted more. Either way, this is what I expect from a gas gun, sans the final group.

Shot using a bipod and a small rear squeeze bag.

View attachment 7523652

Sighter group with handloads since I swapped scopes to this rifle. I only adjusted down 2mils, so the L/R point of impact remained the same as the other handload group.
View attachment 7523653

nice.
i have to hand it to guys that can keep their groups together for 5x5s.
i must ask, did they guy that decided 5x5 was a good standard also decide how many hot dogs or buns go in a package?

admittedly i don't shoot "groups" because i have to drive quite a way to even shoot outdoors so i mostly shoot at steel when i have a chance.
i have no real delusions about being a great shooter or having time or money to dedicate myself to being the best i can be at this.
i did shoot at paper the other day to get used to a new bipod (atlas cal) and i can shoot way better 3 shot groups than 5.
the last shot gets me the most, which is obviously all me. the good thing is i know when it was me.

 

[Mike_Honcho]

Consistency is a bitch

 

[Nivium]

I've messed around with everything from ARs to glassbedded bolt actions in hunting and target rifles, and I honestly don' believe that the bolt actions are that superior anymore. The difference between the two has historically been different levels of sophistication in bedding--with bolt action rifles having more true "free-floating" capability and better bonding to the chassis. But, since ARs have become the new hunting rig, people are developing techniques that will bring the AR just about to the accuracy of a bolt-action, plus you get faster second and third shots for more humane hunting.

The new tricks for accurizing an AR platform is, in order of importance (in my experience):

1. Bedding or thermofitting the barrel to the receiver
2. Lapping the receiver face
3. Using a monolithic or polylithic upper/handguard setup (one where the handguard attaches directly to the upper, rather than mounting on the barrel nut)
4. ensuring a tight fit in the bolt carrier raceway (a sloppy carrier hurts round-after-round precision) - Wilson combat and a few others make a billet upper with smaller carrier raceway

All this with a good barrel, good trigger, good optic will give you a fantastic .2-.4 moa hunting/target AR. My grendel deer hunting rifle will get sub <.25 moa all day

 

[Ledzep]

....
All this with a good barrel, good trigger, good optic will give you a fantastic .2-.4 moa hunting/target AR. My grendel deer hunting rifle will get sub <.25 moa all day

Prove it, please.

20 shots, no scope adjustment, one piece of paper, either at individual dots, 7x 3 shots, 4x 5 shots or a single group. I don't care. Just don't adjust the scope over the 20 shots so we can put them into a composite group and either you show us the light or I'll show you. If you get 20 shots sub 1/4 MOA on the same piece of paper I'll find a way to get you some replacement ammo/components.

It's a no brainer if you're serious about ethical hunting. The true dispersion pattern of you and your rifle is what matters, not what you've convinced yourself it is. When you take a shot at an animal you don't know if you're going to get the shot that's dead nuts center, or if you happen to get the shot that lands the farthest away from MPOI. You should know what the limit is on those shots fathest away from MPOI to get a good basis for how far away you should be shooting at those animals' vitals.

I'm not saying your rifle won't shoot 1/4 MOA. I just want to see it. Theoretically a guy that says his rifle is 1/4 MOA and bases his hit probability or otherwise convinces himself of its capabilities in order to judge max effective range on that assessment is going to be the one that has a bunch of unexplained failure with what turns out to be a 1-1.5 MOA rifle.

 

[Rocketvapor]

I'm waiting for my 1/4 MOA AR so I can get a sponsor.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

I've messed around with everything from ARs to glassbedded bolt actions in hunting and target rifles, and I honestly don' believe that the bolt actions are that superior anymore. The difference between the two has historically been different levels of sophistication in bedding--with bolt action rifles having more true "free-floating" capability and better bonding to the chassis. But, since ARs have become the new hunting rig, people are developing techniques that will bring the AR just about to the accuracy of a bolt-action, plus you get faster second and third shots for more humane hunting.

The new tricks for accurizing an AR platform is, in order of importance (in my experience):

1. Bedding or thermofitting the barrel to the receiver
2. Lapping the receiver face
3. Using a monolithic or polylithic upper/handguard setup (one where the handguard attaches directly to the upper, rather than mounting on the barrel nut)
4. ensuring a tight fit in the bolt carrier raceway (a sloppy carrier hurts round-after-round precision) - Wilson combat and a few others make a billet upper with smaller carrier raceway

All this with a good barrel, good trigger, good optic will give you a fantastic .2-.4 moa hunting/target AR. My grendel deer hunting rifle will get sub <.25 moa all day

AR's can certainly be very accurate. I've built and shot precision AR's and am selling one right now. If you have great technique (which I don't) then you can get close to bolt gun accuracy. That said, 1/4 MOA groups are pretty strong shooting I don't care what you are shooting, and especially so for an AR. I've not ever been able to do that kind of shooting with any consistency. 1/2 moa maybe, but not under that. Even a 1/2 moa shooting consistently is absolutely fantastic shooting.

 

[Nivium]

Prove it, please.

20 shots, no scope adjustment, one piece of paper, either at individual dots, 7x 3 shots, 4x 5 shots or a single group. I don't care. Just don't adjust the scope over the 20 shots so we can put them into a composite group and either you show us the light or I'll show you. If you get 20 shots sub 1/4 MOA on the same piece of paper I'll find a way to get you some replacement ammo/components.

It's a no brainer if you're serious about ethical hunting. The true dispersion pattern of you and your rifle is what matters, not what you've convinced yourself it is. When you take a shot at an animal you don't know if you're going to get the shot that's dead nuts center, or if you happen to get the shot that lands the farthest away from MPOI. You should know what the limit is on those shots fathest away from MPOI to get a good basis for how far away you should be shooting at those animals' vitals.

I'm not saying your rifle won't shoot 1/4 MOA. I just want to see it. Theoretically a guy that says his rifle is 1/4 MOA and bases his hit probability or otherwise convinces himself of its capabilities in order to judge max effective range on that assessment is going to be the one that has a bunch of unexplained failure with what turns out to be a 1-1.5 MOA rifle.

Recently swapped to a new scope, so I'm probably going to the range weekend after next. You want 100yd or 200yd? I'll do 4x5 at one or 2x5 at both. Don't like 3 shot groups and not trying to waste more precious primers than I have to right now.

And at no point did I extrapolate 1/4 moa to max effective range. While this gun will hold tight out to 600 if I'm in the zone, I will still take my creedmoor for longer range--still on an ar platform and still nearly as accurate as my 6.5 bolt gun.

Like it or not, the gap is narrowing between bolt guns and ARs. ARs may never actually meet them at the mix/max'y competitive level, but for everything else, particularly hunting, I think the AR will continue to grow in popularity so long as the gov.t doesn't take them away. Bedding distinctions and free float are increasingly similar between the two. Rigid uppers overcome the flex in POI from traditional, milspec uppers. A truly free-floating gas tube has negligible impact, and bedding is nearly as good, so long as you are willing to make the barrel ultimately unremovable from the upper. The only thing ARs will never have is the bolt advantage. You can throw a craddock turned 5r bartlein in both, and that is going to get you 70% there mechanically, assuming you are skilled enough to use it. What am I missing here? I've built every precision gun I've had for many years. Used to go bolt action, for obvious reasons, and now I go AR platform for everything up to a 308. If I said my MPA shot .20 moa, you wouldn't bat an eye, but can you explain the real mechanical distinctions that make an AR in the right caliber unable to sit at .25 if you can get .15 -.20 groups out a bolt gun pretty frequently? Genuinely asking, because understanding this stuff as it relates to precision is my main connection with the hobby, and the next goal is to get my creed 308AR down beneath .20 at 100 fairly consistently.

 

[ma smith]

I think the issue most people have is "shooting" the precision AR, not "building" one....

The shooting difficulty comes down to all the reciporicating mass during the recoil (moving back and then forward, etc), whereas the bolt gun just doens't have that issue to deal with.

 

[Nivium]

I think the issue most people have is "shooting" the precision AR, not "building" one....

The shooting difficulty comes down to all the reciporicating mass during the recoil (moving back and then forward, etc), whereas the bolt gun just doens't have that issue to deal with.

Certainly, which gives bolt guns a general recoil advantage, especially suppressed when you can't use a brake. But, with low recoil rounds, like the grendel and the creedmoor, with lmos carriers, reduced power springs and the right brake, recoil, even reciprocating mass recoil, is also one of those issues that is dwindling. Sig's new hybrid round is said to have 2.5 lb recoil impulse, and Vortex's new 6.5 bitch cat is supposed to be similar. I know these still have to cycle, but you can cut that down pretty well and keep .25 moa

 

[Ledzep]

100 or 200 is fine.

So near as I can tell, the difference between the bolt guns and AR style gas guns are the receiver material/construction and barrel interface. The modulus of elasticity is (off the top of my head, hope I'm not full of shit) roughly 1/3 that of steel. Significantly more deflection for the same applied load. Combined with the skimpy wall thickness of an AR upper where the barrel plugs in, as well as a potentially sloppy fit makes for some play.

I think the square faces, heat fit/press fit uppers, beefier uppers that mount the handguard to something other than the barrel nut, tight fitting BCG to upper, etc.. all make improvements. At that point you're still left with a beefier but still aluminum upper, and a gas system to screw things up.

My deal is that I've shot thousands of rounds at this point through accuracy test fixtures and never found any combination that "would not exceed" better than about 1/2 MOA give or take. Most "good" stuff that will make .1-.4 MOA 5-shot groups turns out to be .6-.9 MOA when you overlay all of those groups into one composite group, or try to fire a 20 shot group on purpose. .25 MOA would be cool to see but I remain skeptical.

 

[theLBC]

as i mentioned, hammer shake alone could account for some measurable deviation, or am i the only one that sees the target shake in dry fire?

 

[Nivium]

100 or 200 is fine.

So near as I can tell, the difference between the bolt guns and AR style gas guns are the receiver material/construction and barrel interface. The modulus of elasticity is (off the top of my head, hope I'm not full of shit) roughly 1/3 that of steel. Significantly more deflection for the same applied load. Combined with the skimpy wall thickness of an AR upper where the barrel plugs in, as well as a potentially sloppy fit makes for some play.

I think the square faces, heat fit/press fit uppers, beefier uppers that mount the handguard to something other than the barrel nut, tight fitting BCG to upper, etc.. all make improvements. At that point you're still left with a beefier but still aluminum upper, and a gas system to screw things up.

My deal is that I've shot thousands of rounds at this point through accuracy test fixtures and never found any combination that "would not exceed" better than about 1/2 MOA give or take. Most "good" stuff that will make .1-.4 MOA 5-shot groups turns out to be .6-.9 MOA when you overlay all of those groups into one composite group, or try to fire a 20 shot group on purpose. .25 MOA would be cool to see but I remain skeptical.

So hold on, you want 20 shots in/at one hole? Will you even be able to quantify the number of bullets that went through it. My paper has five targets. I can put 5 shots each on four targets on 1 paper, then the total number of bullets fired can be determined from a picture. Up to you though, 20 shots at one spot sounds interesting so I'm down

 

[theLBC]

So hold on, you want 20 shots in/at one hole? Will you even be able to quantify the number of bullets that went through it. My paper has five targets. I can put 5 shots each on four targets on 1 paper, then the total number of bullets fired can be determined from a picture. Up to you though, 20 shots at one spot sounds interesting so I'm down

some hot dog bun maker decided the standard is 5x5, so that is probably better than one small hole.

video would be great so newbs like me can try to learn from it.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

So hold on, you want 20 shots in/at one hole? Will you even be able to quantify the number of bullets that went through it. My paper has five targets. I can put 5 shots each on four targets on 1 paper, then the total number of bullets fired can be determined from a picture. Up to you though, 20 shots at one spot sounds interesting so I'm down

Sounds fair to me. I would actually love to see this.

 

[Bigjake83]

some hot dog bun maker decided the standard is 5x5, so that is probably better than one small hole.

video would be great so newbs like me can try to learn from it.

It's actually 6x5...

 

[houndog]

If you can shoot 5 consecutive five shot groups at 100 yards and get those groups to average .25" I will bow down before you. Hell, if you can average twice that I'll be impressed. I average about .5-6." with two of my bolt guns, but even then my best groups are rarely sub .3".

And with my AR's on a good day with the most accurate of my half dozen AR's I'm happy if I can average a little over 1 MOA (although I will concede that some of that inaccuracy is on me).

 

[dcrobinson]

If you can shoot 5 consecutive five shot groups at 100 yards and get those groups to average .25" I will bow down before you. Hell, if you can average twice that I'll be impressed. I average about .5-6." with two of my bolt guns, but even then my best groups are rarely sub .3".

And with my AR's on a good day with the most accurate of my half dozen AR's I'm happy if I can average a little over 1 MOA (although I will concede that some of that inaccuracy is on me).

I too would like to see a gas gun with this type of grouping. Not to say it can’t be done. I believe it can and should be done with today’s technology. I just have yet to see it in person. My best groups with bolt gun or semi have never seemed to get below 0.3” with 5 shot groups (5shot is my standard) I rarely break 0.5 with a gas gun however I did once put down a very nice 10 shot group with a 223 AR15. A lot of it could be me but it seems like 3 shot groups with a gas gun will group fairly well, when I try 5 or 10 shot groups there is always that 1 that really screws up my grouping.

 

[dcrobinson]

Like it or not, the gap is narrowing between bolt guns and ARs. ARs may never actually meet them at the mix/max'y competitive level, but for everything else, particularly hunting, I think the AR will continue to grow in popularity so long as the gov.t doesn't take them away. Bedding distinctions and free float are increasingly similar between the two. Rigid uppers overcome the flex in POI from traditional, milspec uppers. A truly free-floating gas tube has negligible impact, and bedding is nearly as good, so long as you are willing to make the barrel ultimately unremovable from the upper.

So my question is what do you mean by unremovable? Are you using some kind of aircraft epoxy to bond the barrel to the upper receiver?
How is that any better than a barrel maker like Craddock that the last barrel I got from him I had to literally press the barrel into a Mega upper.

I guess my point is if you can get a really tight fit such as a .000 to .001+- to where you have to either heat up the upper receiver or literally press the barrel into the upper then torque a barrel nut on how is that any different then the mechanical bond of say a Remington 700 barrel threaded and torqued onto a receiver. I’m just asking because I’m trying to understand where the advantage is gained especially if you cannot remove a barrel when having to remove a barrel is a primary concern on many shooters that want utmost accuracy but go through barrels every few years?

 

[Nivium]

So my question is what do you mean by unremovable? Are you using some kind of aircraft epoxy to bond the barrel to the upper receiver?
How is that any better than a barrel maker like Craddock that the last barrel I got from him I had to literally press the barrel into a Mega upper.

I guess my point is if you can get a really tight fit such as a .000 to .001+- to where you have to either heat up the upper receiver or literally press the barrel into the upper then torque a barrel nut on how is that any different then the mechanical bond of say a Remington 700 barrel threaded and torqued onto a receiver. I’m just asking because I’m trying to understand where the advantage is gained especially if you cannot remove a barrel when having to remove a barrel is a primary concern on many shooters that want utmost accuracy but go through barrels every few years?

Nah, not truly unremovable. Just enough of a pain to buy a new upper. I shim the barrel extension until it has to be hammered in when the barrel is frozen and the upper is heated, then when I get it started about 1/3 inch, I coat the remaining exposed extension/shimstock with red loctite 272 or green loctite 648. Hard to say if this is the magic, but I think it helps as I crank out accurate uppers and this is one of the things I do on absolutely every one. The benefit of pairing the loctite with the tight fit is the loctite is also expanding and filling out any gaps that might exist between the barrel extension and the upper. The reason its best to just buy a new upper when you want to replace a barrel is because yanking that barrel out, even when you fry the loctite, is a nightmare and I don't really trust the upper anymore after I work that shimmed/thermofit barrel out.

I agree with you about the mechanical bond being similar to a Rem 700. There is no doubt that a threaded fit on a rem700 with loctite has less possible wiggle by virtue of the threads (and the AR's barrel nut is different in this regard, because those threads are just providing tension and fitment with the nut, and the barrel extension is still free to make very miniscule movements on the introduction of high pressure--not really the case with a rem700 barrel), but with a thermofit and loctited barrel on an AR you are cutting this free movement down to nearly nothing anyway. If you are using a craddock cut barrel and you have to press it in, I would say you are damn close to the bonding of a rem700. Pair that with a mega upper (which I think has super strong, reinforced material at the front of the receiver to eliminate poi shift from loading a bipod, etc. on the handguard), your only remaining mechanical precision concerns are the gas tube and the slop of the BCG.

 

[Nivium]

So my question is what do you mean by unremovable? Are you using some kind of aircraft epoxy to bond the barrel to the upper receiver?
How is that any better than a barrel maker like Craddock that the last barrel I got from him I had to literally press the barrel into a Mega upper.

I guess my point is if you can get a really tight fit such as a .000 to .001+- to where you have to either heat up the upper receiver or literally press the barrel into the upper then torque a barrel nut on how is that any different then the mechanical bond of say a Remington 700 barrel threaded and torqued onto a receiver. I’m just asking because I’m trying to understand where the advantage is gained especially if you cannot remove a barrel when having to remove a barrel is a primary concern on many shooters that want utmost accuracy but go through barrels every few years?

Also, out of curiosity, what you mean you had to press the craddock barrel in? Like machine press it in? If so, that's pretty damn awesome fitment, so long as you are able to machine press it without messing up the crown. I use a rubber mallet, freeze the barrel in the freezer, and cook the upper to about 350. Mind me asking what machine you use? If I find a way that makes me comfortable (re: the crown), I would love to do that and it would let me use slightly thicker shimstock.

 

[dcrobinson]

So what uppers are you using and what BCG have you found that have the tightest tolerances? I’ve used Mega almost exclusively for the past 5 years and Noveske before that but with Megas merger and the supply drying up and the long lead times of Noveske I’m looking for another manufacturer. I did try Zev recently and while ok I prefer a beefier receiver.

 

[dcrobinson]

Also, out of curiosity, what you mean you had to press the craddock barrel in? Like machine press it in? If so, that's pretty damn awesome fitment, so long as you are able to machine press it without messing up the crown. I use a rubber mallet, freeze the barrel in the freezer, and cook the upper to about 350. Mind me asking what machine you use? If I find a way that makes me comfortable (re: the crown), I would love to do that and it would let me use slightly thicker shimstock.

I heated the upper(Mega MML) to about 300 and froze the barrel. Using anti seize on the barrel I used a vertical hydraulic press like most auto shops have. The barrel was threaded so I installed a brake to protect the crown and used a couple of pennys to protect the brake. I supported the upper with a piece of pine wood. It did not require any effort in the press and I could have easily used a mallet to tap the barrel on but I usually run into alignment problems with the indexing pin. By using a press I can control movement and pressure.
On a second note it wasn’t only the craddock barrel that was tight. I removed that barrel and sold it (224 Valkyrie that I won’t get in to) and put a 223 rainier match barrel on and it was also very tight, difference being I got it on by hand using heat/freeze method.
Most Mega receivers I’ve had were tight but this particular one was definitely tighter for whatever reason.

 

[dcrobinson]

I might add to that,
It was enough pressure the first time I was a little concerned about splitting the upper receiver. If you were to use vertical press I’d be very careful about how much shim your adding. While there are plenty of methods of protecting the barrel and receiver if you were to add too much material I would worry about splitting an upper receiver. I was almost thinking of removing the anodizing on the upper but I got it to go without.

 

[Tx_Aggie]

I've messed around with everything from ARs to glassbedded bolt actions in hunting and target rifles, and I honestly don' believe that the bolt actions are that superior anymore. The difference between the two has historically been different levels of sophistication in bedding--with bolt action rifles having more true "free-floating" capability and better bonding to the chassis. But, since ARs have become the new hunting rig, people are developing techniques that will bring the AR just about to the accuracy of a bolt-action, plus you get faster second and third shots for more humane hunting.

The new tricks for accurizing an AR platform is, in order of importance (in my experience):

1. Bedding or thermofitting the barrel to the receiver
2. Lapping the receiver face
3. Using a monolithic or polylithic upper/handguard setup (one where the handguard attaches directly to the upper, rather than mounting on the barrel nut)
4. ensuring a tight fit in the bolt carrier raceway (a sloppy carrier hurts round-after-round precision) - Wilson combat and a few others make a billet upper with smaller carrier raceway

All this with a good barrel, good trigger, good optic will give you a fantastic .2-.4 moa hunting/target AR. My grendel deer hunting rifle will get sub <.25 moa all day

None of these are "new" tricks.

Most of this stuff (bedding the barrel extension with shim stock, and later thermo-fitting an over-sized barrel extension into the upper, truing the face of the upper, etc.) has been done in the NRA/CMP Service Rifle world for decades now. Along with other things, such as tuning the gas tube so that it doesn't contact the carrier key or upper when the bolt is in battery.

Why it's taken so long for the home builder (or companies building ARs for something other than shooting High Power) to catch on is a mystery to me.

Here's Joe Carlo (a former armorer for the Army Reserve marksmanship unit who builds service rifle uppers for the public now) talking about the process in an old YouTube video shot at Camp Perry back in 2014. He even explains about when the AMU shooters first realized it was a problem (in the mid-90s).



There are other videos in the same series where Joe talks about carrier tilt, barrel harmonics, etc.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Also, out of curiosity, what you mean you had to press the craddock barrel in? Like machine press it in? If so, that's pretty damn awesome fitment, so long as you are able to machine press it without messing up the crown. I use a rubber mallet, freeze the barrel in the freezer, and cook the upper to about 350. Mind me asking what machine you use? If I find a way that makes me comfortable (re: the crown), I would love to do that and it would let me use slightly thicker shimstock.

That's how I fit my 10/22 barrel in. I have to say, it's solid as hell! It's an exceptionally good way to do it. There she is at my buddies gun store after getting a little touch up from an unfortunate accident involving her hit the driveway. Didn't budge POI either

 

[Ghosting]

I've got quite a few high-end ARs. It's actually what I prefer over bolt guns just for the fact that I can get more rounds on target faster. If you spend 1/2 a second cycling the bolt well that's 1/2 a second I just saved and I can ring that steel that much faster. As for the extra mass for the bcg moving? Well that's what 4 port breaks for made for... it's not a damn SCAR the bcg is not THAT big.
Some have proof barrels some GA precision barrels, etc. I would say I can get .4-.5 accuracy out of them pretty easily.
Are my custom bolt guns a little but more accurate? Yeah. but when youre shooting 500 yards and under it doesn't matter. That's still a 2" group at 500 yards or 4" group at 1000 and that's a dead animal or hit target regardless.
This Bolt/AR gun comparison is not nearly as relevant anymore since Clintons BS AR ban ended in 04 and the AR craze took off which allowed better and better precision ARs and AR parts to be introduced to us.

 

[Nivium]

So what uppers are you using and what BCG have you found that have the tightest tolerances? I’ve used Mega almost exclusively for the past 5 years and Noveske before that but with Megas merger and the supply drying up and the long lead times of Noveske I’m looking for another manufacturer. I did try Zev recently and while ok I prefer a beefier receiver.

I would suggest the wilson combat billet upper with the minimized carrier raceway. It's hefty too, and I think it's sufficiently beefed up at the barrel threads. I want to build another grendel on a Larue Stealth 2.0 just to see if I get better accuracy out of the polylithic upper than the beefed up/reduced carrier raceway upper. As to BCG, there are quite a few that have flared ends to increase surface contact - JP, lantac, and I think young manufacturing, as well as others. It's pretty easy to find an enlarged bcg, less easy to find an upper with tight tolerances in the raceway. In all honesty, and this is just a theory, a law tactical folder might do everything a thick bcg would do. It puts spring pressure on the end of the carrier, and that might be all it takes to keep the slop out when the boltface strips the round. I don't know this, but I run a folder on my guns regardless because I like them and it makes them more portable hunting in and out of ATVs.

If you are looking a new upper manufacturer--I think the Wilson Combat is my favorite upper. I'll warn you that it isn't as tight of a fit as a proper thermofit like BCM or JP, but I shim my barrel extensions anyway so it doesn't matter to me. I like the extra material around the threads and the tight carrier raceway. My current Wilson has a proof SS 20 inch grendel barrel and a JP bolt. Most accurate gun I have to its range limit. The Larue is gonna get a craddock bartlein 20 inch barrel in grendel and a lantac BCG. If I like the lantac bcg better than the jp, it's probably going to go in my wilson unless I think the craddock barrel is better than the proof. Up in the air.

Clearly I love the 6.5 Grendel.

 

[Nivium]

That's how I fit my 10/22 barrel in. I have to say, it's solid as hell! It's an exceptionally good way to do it. There she is at my buddies gun store after getting a little touch up from an unfortunate accident involving her hit the driveway. Didn't budge POI either

That is a strangely cool looking rig. What trigger is that?

 

[Nivium]

I've got quite a few high-end ARs. It's actually what I prefer over bolt guns just for the fact that I can get more rounds on target faster. If you spend 1/2 a second cycling the bolt well that's 1/2 a second I just saved and I can ring that steel that much faster. As for the extra mass for the bcg moving? Well that's what 4 port breaks for made for... it's not a damn SCAR the bcg is not THAT big.
Some have proof barrels some GA precision barrels, etc. I would say I can get .4-.5 accuracy out of them pretty easily.
Are my custom bolt guns a little but more accurate? Yeah. but when youre shooting 500 yards and under it doesn't matter. That's still a 2" group at 500 yards or 4" group at 1000 and that's a dead animal or hit target regardless.
This Bolt/AR gun comparison is not nearly as relevant anymore since Clintons BS AR ban ended in 04 and the AR craze took off which allowed better and better precision ARs and AR parts to be introduced to us.

Agreed. Just reach out to your congressmen and senators about HR127. That's the new attempt at a Clintonesque ban that's worrying me, and its much worse as there is no grandfathering of preban rifles. All my best hunting rigs are ARs

 

[Ghosting]

Agreed. Just reach out to your congressmen and senators about HR127. That's the new attempt at a Clintonesque ban that's worrying me, and its much worse as there is no grandfathering of preban rifles. All my best hunting rigs are ARs

I'm in Missouri. My state already passed all the laws they can saying they are ignoring Fed gun laws and only theirs matter. As for if that will work I can only hope.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

That is a strangely cool looking rig. What trigger is that?

Volquartsen

 

[Nivium]

I'm in Missouri. My state already passed all the laws they can saying they are ignoring Fed gun laws and only theirs matter. As for if that will work I can only hope.

Did that missouri bill pass recently? I saw there was something like it up for vote soon, but didn't know it happened. Congrats

 

[wade2big]

Guys, who cares what these evil people in office pass. Ignore it. Talk to your local and county chief and sheriff and see if they are terrorists or not and treat them accordingly. Its that simple. Lets not bring politics in here. I have been enjoying the conversation in this thread much more without it.

 

[Bigjake83]

 

[TonyTheTiger]

View attachment 7563687

Target pics should get it all sorted out.

 

[knuckleballz]

I've posted this before. It is 1000 yard 10 shot group with my factory 6.5 Creedmoor JP-lrp07 shooting Prime factory 130grain norma bullet/brass prone with bipod, rear bag. It was raining so I blame rain in my eyes/on scope glass for pulling the flyer. The real credit goes to the personal instruction of Frank G. (Lowlight) during the 2 day class.

 

[Old Man with Gun]

Depends much on the barrel, scope and to a lesser extent the trigger, but .3 to .6 is where most of my precision builds have landed.

 

[wade2big]

Depends much on the barrel, scope and to a lesser extent the trigger, but .3 to .6 is where most of my precision builds have landed.

Would you mind posting a breakdown? I’m curious as I haven’t built one.

 

[Old Man with Gun]

Would you mind posting a breakdown? I’m curious as I haven’t built one.

I have a RRA varmint upper (nice Cryo 1:8 Stainless barrel 24"), RRA lower, Magpul PRS stock, JP silent capture spring, Elftman Match trigger Sightron SIII 10-50x60mm target dot scope and Specwar 5.56 suppressor.

This rifle is still breaking in, barrel has about 200 rounds through it.

 

[Old Man with Gun]

This one started as RRA ATH upper but it's been stripped, adjustable gas block, new handguards, etc. (nice Cryo 1:8 Stainless barrel 18"), Spikes lower, Magpul URB stock, JP silent capture spring, Elftman 3-Gun trigger, Vortex Viper PST 4-×6x50mm scope and GA RECCE 5 suppressor. Typical groups are .4-.5moa, I only have these pics handy.

 

[Old Man with Gun]

Built this one on a RRA upper (ARP 4150CMV 1:8.5" 6.5 Grendel barrel 18"), RRA lower, Magpul PRS stock, standard buffer, Geissele SSA-E trigger, Vortex Viper G2, 3-15x44mm scope and Specwar 7.62 suppressor.

 

[Old Man with Gun]

As many have said, it is easier to shoot a bolt gun well, but the AR will get you there. I prefer small frame ARs so 223 wylde, 6.5 grendel are my go to calibers for distance. I picked 6.5G before 224v or 6ARC was out, but would still pick it today. Why? Wolf 6.5 steel case cheap blasting ammo is accurate enough to ding steel out to 700 yards.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

I think the issue most people have is "shooting" the precision AR, not "building" one....

The shooting difficulty comes down to all the reciporicating mass during the recoil (moving back and then forward, etc), whereas the bolt gun just doens't have that issue to deal with.

Its both.

Many think because you can slap/force parts together, it will work perfect.

It doesn't.

There are AR Builders and there are people who slap parts together. AR builders are less than 1%. They have the tools, the knowledge and experience to build repeatable accurate and reliable guns.

Then there is the shooter aspect.

 

[Big Moose]

Gas guns require a different technique. This is a 5 shot group with my 6mm Creedmoor GA Precision built gas gun.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Gas guns require a different technique. This is a 5 shot group with my 6mm Creedmoor GA Precision built gas gun.


View attachment 7565039

If you require different technique from your bolt gun to your gas gun, you are driving your bolt gun incorrectly.

 

[jLorenzo]

I've had one AR-15 that would not shoot, a recent build with a Ballistic Advantage barrel. Thought I'd try a cheep barrel and re-learned a lesson Compass Lake is money in the bank. I have a couple CLE Krieger barrels that will shoot with just about anything.

How does your Compass Lake shoot and with what kind of loads/ammo?

 

[bobke]

Three different charge weights of AR Comp, 120 Scenar L, F210M-one BTO setting-.020 off lands at 2.767” OAL, and first try with this bullet and powder in 7 twist Krieger. Sure, it’s only three shot groups shot consecutively, but indicates potential.

 

[Bigjake83]

How does your Compass Lake shoot and with what kind of loads/ammo?

This is out of a compass lake barrel 18" Bartlein 1-7.7 Twist .223 CLE Match Chamber.

I've just started reloading for a .308 Bartlein from Compass lake and it's already shooting 168 and 175 SMK FGMM at SUB 1/2 MOA.

These groups are the first rounds out of the Bartlein barrel while I was doing barrel break in, gas block adjustment and zeroing the scope. Shot at °38 in high winds with FGMM.

I will be doing a full write up and range report for the barrel and rifle And all the modifications I've made.

Sneak peek...

 

[Claluja]

View attachment 7565472

This is out of a compass lake barrel 18" Bartlein 1-7.7 Twist .223 CLE Match Chamber.

Looks bout right for a CLE 18". Surprised no groups in the .1s

 

[diderr]

My next build will have a CLE Bartlein. My current one has the CLE Douglas and don’t feel you could get any better. He was going to turn down a Mullerworks blank for me but advised me it would be $$$. He has a wealth of knowledge on precision AR stuff