0-600 meter distance shooting adjustemts

[Savage_Sniper]

I would like to learn to shoot out to 600m with my Savage 110BA, I am using Federal 190gr Sierra Match King factory loads in .300wm,
rate of twist 1 in 10" for all 110 BA .300 model
Rail has 20MOA built into it (how do I compensate for this when dialing in?? or is my current zero what I should work with?)
Scope - Vortex Viper PST FFP MRAD_MARD
Scope height 2.5"
I can currently group within 1cm of each shot at 100m (90yards),

200m I adjust +12 Clicks elevation and can hit the centre of the target​

300m I cant hit anything​

400m - adjust 14-clicks and group about an inch​

​

Now, I know that at 100m my scope is 0.36" but that doesnt mean it correlates down range...

Distance + Amount of clicks​

100 -0.36 - ZERO​

200- 0.72 + 12​

300 -1.08 + 24​

400 - 1.44 + 36​

500 - 1.8 + 48​

600 - 2.16 + 72​

If this were the case at 600m I would be turning my turret 7.2 times to get the elevation needed to get on the target, so, as this is obviously not the case what is the best way to teach myself these distance adjustments to
1 Be repeateable
2 Not use 1000 rounds to work out.??

All help and advice appreciated.

 

[Lonestar1027]

20 MOA Base: If you have already established a zero @100m, then you are good. Don't make any adjustments to your DOPE.

For the other portion of your post, I'm a bit confused. You're using trial and error to establish these holds? Why not run a ballistics calculator to get you in the ballpark first? http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj_simp-5.1.cgi

Try to avoid using 1 click =.36inches at 100 yards or whatever math you were trying to figure out.

Zero at 100m. Run the JBM calculator at whatever distance you would like to shoot. Take the holdover amount given by JBM and dial your scope that amount. Shoot. Spot your impact. Adjust as necessary.

For mobile, there are tons of apps that people use but Applied Ballistics, Hornady 4DOF, Strelok, Shooter, etc are good ones to check out.

 

[tt123]

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you mean when you say that at 100m your scope is .36".

It seems like a lot of adjustment to 200m, I shoot a .308 and only have to click 7 times to adjust from 100-200m, and about 16 total to 300m. Where are you getting these figures from, and what is the number in inches?

 

[OzTRG]

I’d go with lone stars advice. Once zeroed the elevation in the rail is accounted. Ditch your measurements in inches and stick with measuring in mrad. Use a ballistics app to get some DOPE as a starting point and then go and shoot it. Eg for a 300wm your dope in mils might be in the vicinity of 0.6 for 200m, 1.2 for 300m ... 3.2 for 500m or what ever the app gives you. Take the apps suggested elevation as something to try and you can then get real data from shooting it. This real data is what you can use to true your application. There are some great threads in the ballistics calculator forum and some good instructional videos in the on line training section. Enjoy

 

[pell1203]

Savage Sniper,

I'm rather confused as well as to what you are trying to do. For starters 100 meters (109.36 yards).

Some useful definitions/relationships to help you make sense out of some of this and start getting your arms around the problem:

Mil = mil = Mrad = mrad ******* These are equivalent for the purposes of this discussion, just are abbreviated differently in the literature.

1 Mil at 100 meters = 10 cm.
1/10th Mil at 100 meters = 1 cm. ******* Each click on your scope = 1/10th of a Mil, The distance from 1 to 2 is one full Mil (ten clicks)

Because Mrads (Mils) are an angular measurement, as your distance downrange increases the effect of the initial angle proportionally increases the offset. As an example, each click on your scope will have the following effect on how far the sight (point of aim) is displaced at each the indicated distances (note the pattern):

1/10th Mil at 100 meters = 1 cm.
1/10th Mil at 200 meters = 2 cm.
1/10th Mil at 300 meters = 3 cm.
1/10th Mil at 400 meters = 4 cm.
1/10th Mil at 500 meters = 5 cm.
1/10th Mil at 600 meters = 6 cm.
...
1/10th Mil at 1000 meters = 10 cm.
...
1/10th Mil at 1500 meters = 15 cm.

However, because bullets slow down due to friction (drag) as they travel downrange and are continuously affected by gravity, they begin to lose velocity and start dropping the moment we fire them. To compensate for this drop, we launch them by pointing the barrel up by some angular offset. Once you have zeroed your scope, all your turrets do is change the initial angle you use to launch the projectiles (i. e., make barrel point higher the farther you want to shoot).

Do what Lonestar1027 suggested above and play with the JBM calculator and change the variables to see how they affect the calculations. Since you are in Australia, I suggest you configure it to use all metric measurements in your calculations and make sure your distance output is in meters, drops in centimeters, and elevation and windage outputs are in Mils (Col. 1 -> cm, Col. 2 -> Mil).

Forget about inches and yards altogether, they will just confuse you ! Your scope, per your first post, is an Mrad turret-Mrad reticle, the only adjustment you will need to correct for distance and wind are Mrads. If you need to make a correction, you can use the reticle as a ruler to determine what correction you need (lots of youtube vids on how to use a mil reticle).

I am not familiar with the caliber you are shooting, but I suspect once you have your rifle zeroed at 100 meters, your corrections would follow a similar pattern to what is shown below for elevation.

Based on the scope you have, if above chart were correct, you would need to dial 8.9 Mils of elevation on your turret to get to 1000 meters. I believe your scope offers 10 Mils per full revolution so you will NOT need to get into the second revolution. Good luck!

 

[Apnea]

Savage Sniper,

I'm rather confused as well as to what you are trying to do. For starters 100 meters (109.36 yards).

Some useful definitions/relationships to help you make sense out of some of this and start getting your arms around the problem:

Mil = mil = Mrad = mrad ******* These are equivalent for the purposes of this discussion, just are abbreviated differently in the literature.

1 Mil at 100 meters = 10 cm.
1/10th Mil at 100 meters = 1 cm. ******* Each click on your scope = 1/10th of a Mil, The distance from 1 to 2 is one full Mil (ten clicks)

Because Mrads (Mils) are an angular measurement, as your distance downrange increases the effect of the initial angle proportionally increases the offset. As an example, each click on your scope will have the following effect on how far the sight (point of aim) is displaced at each the indicated distances (note the pattern):

1/10th Mil at 100 meters = 1 cm.
1/10th Mil at 200 meters = 2 cm.
1/10th Mil at 300 meters = 3 cm.
1/10th Mil at 400 meters = 4 cm.
1/10th Mil at 500 meters = 5 cm.
1/10th Mil at 600 meters = 6 cm.
...
1/10th Mil at 1000 meters = 10 cm.
...
1/10th Mil at 1500 meters = 15 cm.

However, because bullets slow down due to friction (drag) as they travel downrange and are continuously affected by gravity, they begin to lose velocity and start dropping the moment we fire them. To compensate for this drop, we launch them by pointing the barrel up by some angular offset. Once you have zeroed your scope, all your turrets do is change the initial angle you use to launch the projectiles (i. e., make barrel point higher the farther you want to shoot).

Do what Lonestar1027 suggested above and play with the JBM calculator and change the variables to see how they affect the calculations. Since you are in Australia, I suggest you configure it to use all metric measurements in your calculations and make sure your distance output is in meters, drops in centimeters, and elevation and windage outputs are in Mils (Col. 1 -> cm, Col. 2 -> Mil).

Forget about inches and yards altogether, they will just confuse you ! Your scope, per your first post, is an Mrad turret-Mrad reticle, the only adjustment you will need to correct for distance and wind are Mrads. If you need to make a correction, you can use the reticle as a ruler to determine what correction you need (lots of youtube vids on how to use a mil reticle).

I am not familiar with the caliber you are shooting, but I suspect once you have your rifle zeroed at 100 meters, your corrections would follow a similar pattern to what is shown below for elevation.

View attachment 6893228

Based on the scope you have, if above chart were correct, you would need to dial 8.9 Mils of elevation on your turret to get to 1000 meters. I believe your scope offers 10 Mils per full revolution so you will NOT need to get into the second revolution. Good luck!

Great explanation. Remember that you can use your reticle as a ruler. So if you need to move impacts from one point to another on target and measure that distance at, let's say 0.5 mils with your reticle, your correction or adjustment is 0.5 mils.

 

[FishDr]

He is referencing the click value (on target) at each given range (estimated) which has no correlation to drops. Get a ballistic program, online or on a mobile app to calculate actual drops. Try to find a range or a buddy to walk you through the steps of finding velocity and building a basic drop chart. That will take you leaps forward. Next, I don’t mean this as a smart Alec, try to find a local long range course or precision rifle class. They will teach most of these concepts in the course material, as well as establish a solid Zero, confirm drop chart, etc with real shots on target with YOUR rifle and ammo. Another benefit will be the opportunity to shoot and handle other types of gear to find out what works for you and what doesn’t. Training and ammo is a good investment starting out. Have fun and enjoy the journey.

 

[Savage_Sniper]

Hi all thanks for the excellent replies yes I was getting confused with my calculations regarding Yards V Meters and should have checked that before I posted I also should have double checked my corrections for what I was shooting which I also got wrong.

That said, the info I was going off initially for my scope was MRAD Subtensions The EBR-1 MRAD - .1 mrad clicks which subtend .36 inches at 100 yards.
http://www.vortexoptics.com/uploads/web_manual_rfl_viper-pst_210s1-m.pdf

I'm not particularly good at match never mind Trigonometry so working this out was difficult for me, I just wanted to know how many clicks I needed to set at each distance from 100m (109.36 yards) through to 600m (656.168 yards).

I have watched Ryan Clecknar video about MILs - which was very helpful in getting to know what mils were and how to use them.

So I zeroed my rifle in at 100m (109 yards) and shot the best group I could.
Then I moved to 200 and took one shot at my zero and then adjusted from where the bullet landed on the target back to my zero like in this video


This worked ok for me as I was still close enough to be able to see my impact points and adjust accordingly but it was futile at anything farther than 400m as you can imagine. (This is where I got frustrated, obviously my technique was not appropriate for what I was trying to achieve)

I found out that using this method without fully understanding what I was doing proved very expensive and very frustrating, but I think I have it worked out now thanks to you all.

I have the Federal Sierra MK drop chart from the manufacturer to go off but that does not account for differing rifle types I also used their own ballistic calculator and came up with the following chart: I could add in as close to my set up as possible.

So, I may have worked this out correct me if I am wrong - at a max distance of 600mts (disregarding the drop in (cm) and only using the drop in (MIL) I have to adjust +4.6. So yes you are correct in that as I have Max 5 MIL in one rotation I should be on target using these adjustments (give or take for environmental and human factors.


The drop chart from Sierra

Below Pics are of my shooting, please excuse the crap target backers I forgot my reactive targets. The circle in the middle is 6" round
1st pic is my Zero - taken from 100m the 5 group shot in the middle of the circle. obviously not dead centre but not far off.
2nd pic is 200 M at +6 clicks
3rd pic is 300, the group was all over the place as you can see
4th pic (the hole with no texta mark around it was my last shot at 400M and I think I adjusted +12 or +14.
Range Info - 35.5 m above sea level - temp 20°c and 0 wind.

Thanks again for the help everyone, Ill give the new chart a run and download an app for my Android. I also have a contact who teaches long range at my shooting club so now the cooler weather is here Ill book in a day

 

[tt123]

If you're using Android, try the free version of Strelok. It's pretty good.

You're definitely going to need more data to get decent results though. Real world drop data is the best in my opinion, but chrono'ing your rifle with the load you're using is a really good idea too (often the manufacturer's claimed velocities are incorrect).

 

[pell1203]

Savage Sniper, you’ve come a long way in a short time! You are doing all the right things. Keep learning and practicing.

 

[Mike 556]

Hi all thanks for the excellent replies yes I was getting confused with my calculations regarding Yards V Meters and should have checked that before I posted I also should have double checked my corrections for what I was shooting which I also got wrong.

That said, the info I was going off initially for my scope was MRAD Subtensions The EBR-1 MRAD - .1 mrad clicks which subtend .36 inches at 100 yards.
http://www.vortexoptics.com/uploads/web_manual_rfl_viper-pst_210s1-m.pdf

I'm not particularly good at match never mind Trigonometry so working this out was difficult for me, I just wanted to know how many clicks I needed to set at each distance from 100m (109.36 yards) through to 600m (656.168 yards).

I have watched Ryan Clecknar video about MILs - which was very helpful in getting to know what mils were and how to use them.

So I zeroed my rifle in at 100m (109 yards) and shot the best group I could.
Then I moved to 200 and took one shot at my zero and then adjusted from where the bullet landed on the target back to my zero like in this video


This worked ok for me as I was still close enough to be able to see my impact points and adjust accordingly but it was futile at anything farther than 400m as you can imagine. (This is where I got frustrated, obviously my technique was not appropriate for what I was trying to achieve)

I found out that using this method without fully understanding what I was doing proved very expensive and very frustrating, but I think I have it worked out now thanks to you all.

I have the Federal Sierra MK drop chart from the manufacturer to go off but that does not account for differing rifle types I also used their own ballistic calculator and came up with the following chart: I could add in as close to my set up as possible.

View attachment 6893557
So, I may have worked this out correct me if I am wrong - at a max distance of 600mts (disregarding the drop in (cm) and only using the drop in (MIL) I have to adjust +4.6. So yes you are correct in that as I have Max 5 MIL in one rotation I should be on target using these adjustments (give or take for environmental and human factors.


The drop chart from Sierra
View attachment 6893548
Below Pics are of my shooting, please excuse the crap target backers I forgot my reactive targets. The circle in the middle is 6" round
1st pic is my Zero - taken from 100m the 5 group shot in the middle of the circle. obviously not dead centre but not far off.
2nd pic is 200 M at +6 clicks
3rd pic is 300, the group was all over the place as you can see
4th pic (the hole with no texta mark around it was my last shot at 400M and I think I adjusted +12 or +14.
Range Info - 35.5 m above sea level - temp 20°c and 0 wind.

View attachment 6893549
View attachment 6893550View attachment 6893551View attachment 6893552

Thanks again for the help everyone, Ill give the new chart a run and download an app for my Android. I also have a contact who teaches long range at my shooting club so now the cooler weather is here Ill book in a day

Thanks for the vids and good shooting. I've been following this among other threads, I'm a new long range shooter, this thread has been very helpful. Pell1203 this site is golden because of men like you, your willing to share your experience and knowledge , and encourage us beginning shooters. Thank You and to all you journeymen for all your help.
Mike

 

[Savage_Sniper]

Thanks all, much appreciated

I will post more on this thread as soon as I get out to practice some more

 

[Sharpened Graphite]

1) Start moving away from talking in clicks with regards to dope. Just use mils (or MOA) universally. What happens if you start having a scope that adjusts in 0.2 mil or 1/2 MOA (or 0.05 mil / 1/8 MOA)? Unlikely, but still possible (Viper HS LR, for example).

2) That 100 m zero is most likely too imprecise. Your three-round cluster is 1.5" away from center, then your two-round cluster is 3" away. I can only take it at face value that you didn't correct for an absolute proper zero, because I don't see any additional shots. Let's take the smaller error; 1.5" off dead-center is 1.25 mil error at 300 m. That's 12.5 clicks of error from where you should be, even if your drop data was correct.

3) What are you trying to do? Benchrest and punch paper? If you're just plinking steel, even 2 MOA precision is good enough unless you're going for small chicken plates at 600+