1.5" @ 100yds is the best my 457 will do

[evilblackdog]

And I mean the best, often it's closer to 1.75". I've tried around 15 different types of ammo and none of it is any better.

Do you think going with an aftermarket barrel would be the way to go?

 

[Quarter Horse]

Your first post! Welcome to SH. Give us more info. If you shoot centerfire, what rifle, what scope, what cal. and what level of performance? Which 457 are you shooting and what scope? Are you shooting from a bench? Do you have other .22s that you shoot better. etc. etc.

 

[littlepod]

Welcome to the hide! I'm also curious on all the questions asked by Quarter Horse!

 

[evilblackdog]

I shoot a Bergara LRP Elite in 6.5 Creedmoor with an Athlon Chronus for my main centerfire rifle. My CZ is a 457 Varmint AT-ONE with an Athlon Ares 4.5-27. The groups I refer to are all shot with a bipod and squeeze bag. I'm no Hathcock but I'm confident enough that it's not my skill or lack thereof causing the poor groups as I can shoot sub moa groups with my centerfire no problem. I don't have any other precision .22's so I can't really comment on that.

 

[1911Operator]

Welcome to the Hide !! please provide more info so we can help you out..

 

[MDrimfirerookie]

can you give us some details on the ammo you've tried, the conditions you shot in and a general idea of the spread, more vertical or more horizontal.

 

[evilblackdog]

can you give us some details on the ammo you've tried, the conditions you shot in and a general idea of the spread, more vertical or more horizontal.

I can't remember all the ammo I've tried I found that Fed Premium Target grouped as good as everything else at 50 yards but at 100 it opened up so bad. At 100 I've tried the Lapua Midas and Center x along with SK long Range and my Fed Prem Target. They all pattern the same. I haven't noticed any walking, it's more or less all over. Is there an official target I can use to shoot some groups to show what I'm dealing with?

 

[Quarter Horse]

Take a look at the first page of the 6X5 thread in the stickies. There are three iterations of the thread. In the first iteration you will see a vast difference in performance, rifles, ammo, etc. The next two are a little more condensed and they are. I think it is simply the result of people being unwilling to post if their target shows less stellar shooting.

Most here will believe that an inch at a hundred with a good centerfire does not equal an inch with a good .22. I believe it's actually closer to two to one for most of us.

Start at 50 yds. Use Center-X ammo. Concentrate on the basics. Shoot your five shot groups without coming off the gun. Do not lift your head until you have completed the group. The .22 platform is very unforgiving. Any changes in how you get into the gun will show up on the target. Any failure to set up a proper NPA will show up on target. Basics. Basics. Basics.

If you know someone that is accomplished with a .22 have them shoot your set up. I'm not saying you don't have a problem with your hardware. I am saying that the .22RF is very demanding. Any wind at a 100yds. will move a .22RF bullet around like a butterfly in a hurricane. Do not despair-you will get it and you will see significant improvement.

Again, welcome.

 

[littlepod]

Take a look at the first page of the 6X5 thread in the stickies. There are three iterations of the thread. In the first iteration you will see a vast difference in performance, rifles, ammo, etc. The next two are a little more condensed and they are. I think it is simply the result of people being unwilling to post if their target shows less stellar shooting.

Most here will believe that an inch at a hundred with a good centerfire does not equal an inch with a good .22. I believe it's actually closer to two to one for most of us.

Start at 50 yds. Use Center-X ammo. Concentrate on the basics. Shoot your five shot groups without coming off the gun. Do not lift your head until you have completed the group. The .22 platform is very unforgiving. Any changes in how you get into the gun will show up on the target. Any failure to set up a proper NPA will show up on target. Basics. Basics. Basics.

If you know someone that is accomplished with a .22 have them shoot your set up. I'm not saying you don't have a problem with your hardware. I am saying that the .22RF is very demanding. Any wind at a 100yds. will move a .22RF bullet around like a butterfly in a hurricane. Do not despair-you will get it and you will see significant improvement.

Again, welcome.

+1 to QH. I was surprised at how much NPA affected the .22 because the perceived recoil is so little, but the bullet also spends more time in the barrel. Off the same lot of ammo, when super focused it could range from consistently hitting .75", to getting dreary 1.3" groups depending on my focus on fundamentals.

There are different finickiness in ammo as well. My new rifle, just hates Eley. No real mechanics to it, the groups are pretty spread out, all around 1.2", Target, Club, Match... Tenex pushed into the .9's, but that's pretty bad for something so pricey. But then I put in some SK ammo, and there were reliable groups and flyers were all me. Center-X luckily performs well for me.

So +1 to fundamentals, and you will need to keep track of the ammo you're shooting. Rimfire is a very different game than centerfire.

 

[Quarter Horse]

I can't remember all the ammo I've tried I found that Fed Premium Target grouped as good as everything else at 50 yards but at 100 it opened up so bad. At 100 I've tried the Lapua Midas and Center x along with SK long Range and my Fed Prem Target. They all pattern the same. I haven't noticed any walking, it's more or less all over. Is there an official target I can use to shoot some groups to show what I'm dealing with?

OK, I type slowly and you have already answered the ammo question. I suggest Center-x only because many have found it to be pretty consistent. You can use any target you want. There is no official target. There are downloadable targets and you will find them in the 6X5 thread. Some guys just use a marker to make dots on a piece of paper. Group sizes are measured center to center. If your measuring edge to edge, subtract .222. What size groups are you shooting at 50?

 

[Bob2650]

Have you checked the scope mount for loose screws? Use a torque wrench (I say that only because I don't know you)
Shooting well below your skill level with Lapua Midas, Center x and Fed Prem Target makes me think scope problem.
If there are no badly loose screws then try a different scope. Scopes can be loose on the inside, even new ones.

 

[Bob2650]

Does your 457 Varmint AT-One have the match chamber? I seem to recall the early ones do not but the MTR did. I hope CZ wised up and made the match chamber standard.

 

[MarkCZ]

And I mean the best, often it's closer to 1.75". I've tried around 15 different types of ammo and none of it is any better.

Do you think going with an aftermarket barrel would be the way to go?

How many rounds do you have on the gun. My CZ 455 took about 300 rounds+ to start shooting well. What are your groups at 50 yds.? Do you have any ammo that stands out at 50yds.? 100 yds with rimfire is like 300 yds. with a centerfire. You will impact changes with the slightest wind or gun handling.
Mark

 

[MDrimfirerookie]

everyone has hit on a lot of the good points already. one other thing not mentioned is the scope base. are you using the dovetail with rings or did you attach a base. check that and make sure the base didn't come loose and walk forward.

at the end of the day you've got good ammo, sounds like decent fundamentals and experience. once you confirm your gear is solid and torqued, then you might just have ended up with a friday afternoon barrel... welcome to the group, good luck and keep us posted

 

[SouthFLShootin]

1. Pull the gun out of the stock and make sure there is nothing weird going on like a piece of wood chips off or not cut right causing the action and barrel to have pressure points or not completely seat all the way.

2. Check to make sure barrel is fastened to the action securely. Make sure the bolts that are holding it in are torqued correctly, and the bracket is square and centered. Check barrel for for any play or movement once fastened.

3. Already said, but ensure scope rings and scope base are fastened properly.

4. Adjust trigger down to lighter pull weight if yours came heavier. Be sure you don't make it too light and start getting slam fires.

5. Check parallax and head movement between shots when shooting. This can move the point of impact quite a bit. Especially at distances greater than 50 yards.

6. Have someone you know can shoot try a few different types of ammo and shooting a few groups.

The ammo you are shooting should produce good results with at least one of the brands. Velocity inconsistency will start showing up at 100 yards and so will a little bit of wind. Keeping a 22 within 1 MOA at 100 yards is really good shooting IMO. If you still have accuracy problems, it's probably the barrel.

 

[justin amateur]

I like my CZ's but I would never claim they were capable of the accuracy of a true competition grade 22lr rifle.
The fit and machining is what I'd expect from a rifle intended for use as a sporter...not a custom rig.
The hammer forged barrels are not the highest quality and some have proven to be real tomato stakes.
If you get a Monday morning rifle or a Friday afternoon rifle, the quality of the assembly may be less than desired.
Bed/pillar the action, add a barrel support shim about 3 inches forward of the receiver,
support the rifle just forward of the magwell when shooting from the bench to obtain the best results.
Neither CZ or Boyds can eliminate the springboard effect created by a long slender forestock and oversized inletting.
Even the minor recoil of the 22lr can generate enough bounce to cause problems.
If, after trying all else, order a custom barrel, it made a difference with my CZ's.

Never expect any rifle to produce consistent accuracy with cheap rimfire ammunition.
At 100 yards only the best 22lr cartridges will do. Any visible cartridge defects
or muzzle velocities that exceed 40 fps ES will not allow you to produce consistent sub-moa results,
no matter how many keyboard kommandos claim otherwise.

 

[evilblackdog]

How many rounds do you have on the gun. My CZ 455 took about 300 rounds+ to start shooting well. What are your groups at 50 yds.? Do you have any ammo that stands out at 50yds.? 100 yds with rimfire is like 300 yds. with a centerfire. You will impact changes with the slightest wind or gun handling.
Mark

I've got close to 1,000 through it. There are several brands that shoot well at 50 but they all fall apart at 100 in as good of wind conditions as I can get.

 

[littlepod]

When you say shoot well at 50. How well if an average?

 

[Bob2650]

The wind could be the problem, there may be nothing wrong with the rifle. Are the groups at 100 yards round? Do you use wind flags such as surveyors tape on a stick? If your confidence in your shooting ability is high and you verify there is nothing wrong with the scope and mount then the barrel is probably somewhat below average.
Because all ammo shoots the same, and some of the ammo you mentioned is in my category of "if this won't shoot better than the crummy ammo then the rifle won't shoot anything really well" may I recommend a Lilja drop in barrel for Christmas? Lilja is not perfect and has made a dud or two but they are very likely to be extremely good. At about $500 delivered it will probably cost more than the rifle did in the first place but you end up with a rifle capable of benchrest competition grade accuracy. Only the quality of the trigger will hold it back.

 

[littlepod]

Get an international barrel / mcgowan from Canada. They're about $325 delivered if you're looking at a new barrel. I just got one and shot 175 rounds today.. 5, 6x5's, with 5 fouling shots before hand. 100 yards, and they all grouped sub moa, in 35 degree freezing cold outside..

 

[Bob2650]

Littlepod makes an interesting point. My preference for Lilja comes from long experience and I wonder if there is a better 22 barrel out there these days. A lot has changed in the last few years and the old school masters get left behind as other companies invent new and better ways of doing things. Money no object, who makes the best accuracy now?.

 

[littlepod]

Here's my testing today from today... IBI Barrel with Win52D reamer. For $325 I'm really happy. I believe they should also do CZ's

https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...re-maybe-first-in-the-us.6965390/post-8101169

 

[Bob2650]

That is exceptional shooting under conditions cold enough you probably could not feel the trigger. It is a very positive sign for the new barrel company but they have got to win a lot of competitions to catch up with Lilja.

 

[Shawn1492]

Have you shot any Eley ammo yet? You can’t buy it at most stores, but can oreder it form sites like MidwayUSA. It makes a big difference. At a minimum try a few lots of CCI Standard Velocity. The rimfire ammo you get at Walmart is t worth your time.

 

[Shawn1492]

And 1.5 at 100 with rimfire is pretty good shooting.

 

[littlepod]

Have you shot any Eley ammo yet? You can’t buy it at most stores, but can oreder it form sites like MidwayUSA. It makes a big difference. At a minimum try a few lots of CCI Standard Velocity. The rimfire ammo you get at Walmart is t worth your time.

Vizards Guns and Ammo stocks Eley for a good price and a flat $12 shipping.

 

[Seymour Fish]

I've got close to 1,000 through it. There are several brands that shoot well at 50 but they all fall apart at 100 in as good of wind conditions as I can get.

If wind accounts for poor groups at 100, the distribution of shots should demonstrate a classic “ weather report” based on wind speed and angle. Check various diagrams showing where shots should impact on a given wind. Armed with this, you can quickly determine if wind accounts for distribution. Gotta have flags. Surveyors tape will do

 

[Seymour Fish]

Littlepod makes an interesting point. My preference for Lilja comes from long experience and I wonder if there is a better 22 barrel out there these days. A lot has changed in the last few years and the old school masters get left behind as other companies invent new and better ways of doing things. Money no object, who makes the best accuracy now?.

The benchrest boys are using 1)Shilen ratchet 2) mueller minimally invasive3) benchmark, but less so 4) Douglas, in 10/22 br from time to time

 

[Bob2650]

OH! WOW! where is that happy dance icon?
OK, I sat down and caught my breath.
Thank You Seymour Fish! Your post triggered a memory, something like 15 or 20 years ago I bought a couple of "factory second" 10-22 type barreled receivers from a guy near the North/South Dakota border. Total custom made jobs with the highest grade Douglas barrels screwed into receivers machined out of a solid block of stainless steel. They are factory seconds because the helper guy got too aggressive with the final touches sanding the top of the receivers and a regular 10-22 scope base won't lay flat. At the time I thought I would just bed a sight base with belzona or devcon epoxy or mount the scope on the barrel. Got an obscenely huge discount. Soon after that he retired and sold out to some guy in Oklahoma? not sure where. I asked why he did not just mill the scope base into the top of the receiver and he said the block of stainless would have been too big for one of the machines.
I think I might know where I stored those barreled receivers away. It is time to build that project! I remember the project got sidetracked because I could not find any actual stainless steel ruger 10-22 sight bases. Aluminum is no good because of the different expansion with temperature changes would break any epoxy bond.

 

[orange]

If your groups look the same on average with no stringing. Another culprit can be follow through. I have always found rimfire rifles off of a bipod are far more sensitive to follow through than high power rifles. Especially at longer ranges.

 

[308pirate]

I'm no Hathcock but I'm confident enough that it's not my skill or lack thereof causing the poor groups

Uh huh........never mind that rimfire rifles tend to show technique flaws that centerfire rifles usually hide.

 

[JaoeyP]

Yep, yep, and yep to what everyone has said.

If your groups are spreading horizontally, might just be wind and you're in good shape.

Technique!!!! As mentioned, that bullet is SLOW compared to centerfire. Parallax matters. Form matters. Trigger control matters.

Ammo. Keep in mind with a 22, not only may you have demonstrable performance variance with various make and model ammo, you may have differences lot to lot.

Finally, be realistic. 1.5 moa at 100 with a CZ is decent. This is what I get with mine. For my purposes (NRL22), it's perfectly acceptable.

 

[Seymour Fish]

Yep, yep, and yep to what everyone has said.

If your groups are spreading horizontally, might just be wind and you're in good shape.

Technique!!!! As mentioned, that bullet is SLOW compared to centerfire. Parallax matters. Form matters. Trigger control matters.

Ammo. Keep in mind with a 22, not only may you have demonstrable performance variance with various make and model ammo, you may have differences lot to lot.

Finally, be realistic. 1.5 moa at 100 with a CZ is decent. This is what I get with mine. For my purposes (NRL22), it's perfectly acceptable.

JaoeyP, certain angle winds will give you plenty vertical too. If you recognize where poi should go, you can hold for it. If not, you are down to only shooting in a perfectly steady condition, or picking a condition and only shooting when it recurs. Many games do not allow time to wait it out, and those perfect conditions are seldom seen. Likely preaching to the choir here. Agree with everything you said, and +10 on lot to lot variation. Seymour

 

[Seymour Fish]

OH! WOW! where is that happy dance icon?
OK, I sat down and caught my breath.
Thank You Seymour Fish! Your post triggered a memory, something like 15 or 20 years ago I bought a couple of "factory second" 10-22 type barreled receivers from a guy near the North/South Dakota border. Total custom made jobs with the highest grade Douglas barrels screwed into receivers machined out of a solid block of stainless steel. They are factory seconds because the helper guy got too aggressive with the final touches sanding the top of the receivers and a regular 10-22 scope base won't lay flat. At the time I thought I would just bed a sight base with belzona or devcon epoxy or mount the scope on the barrel. Got an obscenely huge discount. Soon after that he retired and sold out to some guy in Oklahoma? not sure where. I asked why he did not just mill the scope base into the top of the receiver and he said the block of stainless would have been too big for one of the machines.
I think I might know where I stored those barreled receivers away. It is time to build that project! I remember the project got sidetracked because I could not find any actual stainless steel ruger 10-22 sight bases. Aluminum is no good because of the different expansion with temperature changes would break any epoxy bond.

Bob, they just might make some fine shooters. Would it be feasible to machine the tops flat and cut 11mm dovetail set of grooves ? Plenty rings that would work if so.

 

[Seymour Fish]

Bob, they just might make some fine shooters. Would it be feasible to machine the tops flat and cut 11mm dovetail set of grooves ? Plenty rings that would work if so.

Or, drill and tap for steel Picatinny rail, and bed he’ll out of it with JB. Gives option of a 20-30 MOA slope for reaching out

 

[Bob2650]

I bought those barreled receivers back when I had more money than time. Now I have the opposite situation. As I recall, there was not enough meat left on top to really work with. Murphy Precision has caught my eye and has the exact stainless rail I am looking for. Another item on the wish list........
I have a cheap tig welder but I am not skilled enough with it to mess around with such expensive unicorn turds.
Really need to find my stash of 10-22 goodies before spending time on planing a course of action. I converted some into Appleseed loaners and now I need to switch the factory barrels back out for the good stuff. It is easy enough to ring the rifle gongs at 100 with them but no one is going to mistake those factory barrels for match grade.

To get back on topic,
I will be using a loctite industrial stud and bearing mount product to secure the match grade barrel in any 10-22 or CZ when building for precision shooting. Possibly 638 for the latest technology but I have used 620 and 603 in the past. What is the CZ receiver made of? The mix of metals and the working time you need determine which product to use.
Here is good information on loctite:

 

[Seymour Fish]

I bought those barreled receivers back when I had more money than time. Now I have the opposite situation. As I recall, there was not enough meat left on top to really work with. Murphy Precision has caught my eye and has the exact stainless rail I am looking for. Another item on the wish list........
I have a cheap tig welder but I am not skilled enough with it to mess around with such expensive unicorn turds.
Really need to find my stash of 10-22 goodies before spending time on planing a course of action. I converted some into Appleseed loaners and now I need to switch the factory barrels back out for the good stuff. It is easy enough to ring the rifle gongs at 100 with them but no one is going to mistake those factory barrels for match grade.

To get back on topic,
I will be using a loctite industrial stud and bearing mount product to secure the match grade barrel in any 10-22 or CZ when building for precision shooting. Possibly 638 for the latest technology but I have used 620 and 603 in the past. What is the CZ receiver made of? The mix of metals and the working time you need determine which product to use.
Here is good information on loctite:

Murphy stuff is gtg

 

[JaoeyP]

JaoeyP, certain angle winds will give you plenty vertical too. If you recognize where poi should go, you can hold for it. If not, you are down to only shooting in a perfectly steady condition, or picking a condition and only shooting when it recurs. Many games do not allow time to wait it out, and those perfect conditions are seldom seen. Likely preaching to the choir here. Agree with everything you said, and +10 on lot to lot variation. Seymour

Not preaching to the choir at all! I've never thought about wind's effect on vertical groups at 100. Certainly have noticed it at 300!!!

And this is why I am love rimfire! It's challenging and there is ton to learn and it can be played cheaper than centerfire.

 

[Seymour Fish]

Not preaching to the choir at all! I've never thought about wind's effect on vertical groups at 100. Certainly have noticed it at 300!!!

And this is why I am love rimfire! It's challenging and there is ton to learn and it can be played cheaper than centerfire.

JaoeyP, I love it too. There is an art to it beyond shooting centerfire in which the vertical from aerodynamic jump gets progressively lost in the noise beyond 200. The best reference regarding vertical displacement with wind direction is in Tony Boyers book, and shows it’s relevant in short range cf br. it holds up in RF. Another interesting wrinkle is, given a system that has positive compensation, the “tune” for 50&100 will vary, thus a different speed of the ammo your system likes may work better at a given distance. Every day, “ trying to find something” in new conditions, is supremely interesting. What a ride !

 

[Seymour Fish]

Have you shot any Eley ammo yet? You can’t buy it at most stores, but can oreder it form sites like MidwayUSA. It makes a big difference. At a minimum try a few lots of CCI Standard Velocity. The rimfire ammo you get at Walmart is t worth your time.

Shawn, have found Federal Automatch from said box store I don’t care for, that shot Lights Out. Only certain lott #’s, like most rf stuff no matter the name on the box. The ammo chase is wherever you find it. A gamble

 

[justin amateur]

I can compensate for a steady breeze holding from a single direction.
It's really not a problem. What kicks my adze is turbulence, totally unpredictable swirls.
Up/down/left/right rotating air masses traveling across/along the flight path of the bullet.
I can see that little pill dancing through the scope for the last 50 yards when shooting at 200.
It is most definitely not a smooth arcing trajectory.

Looks like this...

 

[tatman3715]

I had very similar issues, mine ended up being the action screws. Get a good torque driver, start at 20inch pounds shoot a couple of 10 shot groups of what ammo you think shoots the best so far, then move up 5 inch pounds, shoot a few groups and so on. Mine ended up loving 35 inch pounds and now shoots like a dream.

 

[1911Operator]

I had very similar issues, mine ended up being the action screws. Get a good torque driver, start at 20inch pounds shoot a couple of 10 shot groups of what ammo you think shoots the best so far, then move up 5 inch pounds, shoot a few groups and so on. Mine ended up loving 35 inch pounds and now shoots like a dream.

I believe 35 inch pounds is the factory recommended torque.. I've never tried another setting.. My PV shot great right out of the box.. It now resides in a MPA chassis and the torque spec there is 65 inch pounds.. shoots lights out with SK Standard Plus

 

[Sgt47]

I guess I got lucky. I picked up a new 457 PV today, ran a patch down the barrel, mounted optics, zeroed at 50 yds and was able to get some sub moa groups at 50 with CCI SV. I'll report back after shooting at 100 yds.

 

[KAIFS]

good advise above. From personal experience:
NOT all rifles are created equal, some will NEVER shoot cloverleaf - been there, however, before giving up:
a) is action tight or 'walking'?
b) barrel free floating or your dollar bill does not slip all the way to the receiver ring?
c) trigger... well, if you new to it, it will take practice to get it same way every time.
d) have you try to hand feed each round vs magazine feed, if not, try it. At times feeding ramp might just slightly deform your bullet entering the chamber and it will make a difference.
e) when I was breaking in my 455 Ultra LUX - it honestly did not settle for nearly 400rds - so give it little ammo, patience and time.