1 MOA Out of the box

[long-shot]

Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bushmaster7</div><div class="ubbcode-body">those are some amazing groups for a 22LR at 100 yards. I have some of the good Eley stuff and will have to try it when I get a decent rig. </div></div>

Why thank you! I know you're not talking about my groups...

 

[pawprint]

Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dollar Bill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's true, but MOA is MOA at any distance. It's an angle. If it will lay 5 shots in .4 @50, given no other outside influences, it will shoot .8 @ 100.</div></div>
Yea, right on! I shoot my sub MOA 22 at a 1000 yards all the time, keeping all in the x ring with no problem, it is just a matter of angles.

 

[pawprint]

Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

Looking around the county's 22 Tac Match Scores, 1-1.25MOA are possible and are on the winning side, best group side in the winners circle, just because a rifle shoot very sub MOA at 50yds, does not mean it will do so at 100-in the real world. Many competative shooters will use two different types of rounds (or more) for different ranges. Your looking at over 7inches of drop, and big-time wind drift variations. The 17 rimfires, are a different animal, and should not be confused with 22lr, anymore than a 223Rem should be confused with a 17 Rem-two different animals.

 

[RicosRevenge]

Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

Wow, nice to see some honesty! LongShot, those are about the average with my 40X as well. Shooting a 5x5 at 100 I "may" have one group in the .5" range but there is no way I will have 5 of them. Chances are my groups will look pretty darn close to what LS posted and my average (like yours) seems to end up in the "just barely" under 1"

I love the idea that Carter uses as he obviously keeps track of all of his groups to keep track of the long-term. I need to do that but since I only compete against myself, I have never done that... I probably should. I do keep a log on the .308 why not on my "trainer?"

Dollar Bill, as for .5 MOA being the same regardless of distance "given no outside influences," I'm sorry, but you will never have the exact same MV and therefore even if everything else in the world is the same - it ain't happening. Besides, it is those differences and even the "outside influences" of wind, temp, humidity and heck even the hangover you still kinda have from the night before - that make it interesting.

Here is an example - my 10/22 will eat up a 50 yard target (examples below) - but opens up to 1.5-2" at 100. Why? Heck I don't know. Maybe it likes different ammo at 100 than at 50? But, bottomline this alone negates your theory. Keep posting though, this is as good natured as it comes, no disrespect intended!!

 

[exmr2sw]

Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

If cash is a concern, I would get a Remington 504-T with the eley "match" chamber in .22LR. They dont make them anymore but you can find them on various auction sites.. Second, a Rem. 40X from CMP would be good. The 504-T is light and compact with a detachable magazine and most 40X's are single shot.

 

[pawprint]

Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

There was a very comprehensive test done by AccurateReloading.com on this very subject, specifically 22lr ammo. Utilizing a Bleiker rifle, with a 2-stage trigger, and barrel tuner(Swiss made, one of the finest 22 rifles in the world) 55 different types of ammo were tested here are their 100 yard results.
0.455 Eley Match
0.510 Lapua Midas Plus
0.549 Lapua Midas M
0.611 Lapua Polar Biathlon
0.611 Eley Tenex Ultimate EPS
0.619 Eley Match EPS
0.622 Eley Club
0.630 Lapua Center X
0.631 RWS R50
0.679 Eley Tenex Semi Auto
0.694 Lapua Midas L
0.729 Eley Tenex
0.739 Lapua Master L
0.753 Lapua Super Club
0.785 Lapua Master M
0.831 Eley Sport
0.851 Eley Match Xtra
0.859 Lapua Standard Plus
0.867 Akah X-Zone
0.877 Eley Pistol Match
0.907 Norinco Target
0.924 Eley Silhouex
0.939 CCI Standard
0.952 Eley Subsonic HP
0.963 Magtech
0.970 Olin Ball
0.978 Kassnar Concorde
0.995 Eley Club Xtra
1.009 Western Value Pack
1.032 Federal Champion
1.087 Norinco Pistol Revolver
1.100 CCI Mini Mag
1.112 Lapua Crow HP
1.143 Winchester T22
1.142 Federal Gold Medal
1.144 federal American Eagle
1.156 Swartklip Hollo Point
1.165 Lapua Signum
1.170 Swartklip Match Trainer
1.175 Fed. Champion Value Pk
1.182 SK high Velocity
1.201 Totem
1.224 Winchester Super X
1.358 Eley Standard
1.367 Remington High Velocity
1.375 CCI Blazer
1.414 Eley High Velocity
1.450 Remington Target
1.504 LVE Logo
1.813 SK Standard
1.879 S&B Club
1.947 S&B Hollow Point
2.073 SK Standard HP
2.221 S&B Standard
2.266 Pobjeda Target
I'm glad to see most of the posters on this board have rifles equal or better than the Bleiker, and have the found the ammo to do so. It is amazing to me that people like Bleiker can even stay in business! What are the selling? Most of the guys on this board with an out of the box CZ, are whipping their butts! Consistent moa or better rifles, in my mind mean, consistent moa or better, not that one time behind aunt lisa's barn, but consistent, I'm sure that is what it means to most of you too. Great shooting! Thanks for the super posts.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paw print</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There was a very comprehensive test done by AccurateReloading.com on this very subject, specifically 22lr ammo. Utilizing a Bleiker rifle, with a 2-stage trigger, and barrel tuner(Swiss made, one of the finest 22 rifles in the world) 55 different types of ammo were tested here are their 100 yard results.
0.455 Eley Match
0.510 Lapua Midas Plus
0.549 Lapua Midas M
0.611 Lapua Polar Biathlon
0.611 Eley Tenex Ultimate EPS
0.619 Eley Match EPS
0.622 Eley Club
0.630 Lapua Center X
0.631 RWS R50
0.679 Eley Tenex Semi Auto
0.694 Lapua Midas L
0.729 Eley Tenex
0.739 Lapua Master L
0.753 Lapua Super Club
0.785 Lapua Master M
0.831 Eley Sport
0.851 Eley Match Xtra
0.859 Lapua Standard Plus
0.867 Akah X-Zone
0.877 Eley Pistol Match
0.907 Norinco Target
0.924 Eley Silhouex
0.939 CCI Standard
0.952 Eley Subsonic HP
0.963 Magtech
0.970 Olin Ball
0.978 Kassnar Concorde
0.995 Eley Club Xtra
1.009 Western Value Pack
1.032 Federal Champion
1.087 Norinco Pistol Revolver
1.100 CCI Mini Mag
1.112 Lapua Crow HP
1.143 Winchester T22
1.142 Federal Gold Medal
1.144 federal American Eagle
1.156 Swartklip Hollo Point
1.165 Lapua Signum
1.170 Swartklip Match Trainer
1.175 Fed. Champion Value Pk
1.182 SK high Velocity
1.201 Totem
1.224 Winchester Super X
1.358 Eley Standard
1.367 Remington High Velocity
1.375 CCI Blazer
1.414 Eley High Velocity
1.450 Remington Target
1.504 LVE Logo
1.813 SK Standard
1.879 S&B Club
1.947 S&B Hollow Point
2.073 SK Standard HP
2.221 S&B Standard
2.266 Pobjeda Target
I'm glad to see most of the posters on this board have rifles equal or better than the Bleiker, and have the found the ammo to do so. It is amazing to me that people like Bleiker can even stay in business! What are the selling? Most of the guys on this board with an out of the box CZ, are whipping their butts! Consistent moa or better rifles, in my mind mean, consistent moa or better, not that one time behind aunt lisa's barn, but consistent, I'm sure that is what it means to most of you too. Great shooting! Thanks for the super posts.

</div></div>

I admit some of my brethren(CZ owners) can be a bit shall we say enthusiastic about their rifle's performance. What bothers me most is the claims from the Savage owners....simply olympic competition crushing accuracy out of the box every time.

 

[long-shot]

Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: long-shot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I promised to shoot some groups with my MPR and post the results. The only ammo I shoot is Wolf Match (not Extra). The following is using a Anschutz 64 MPR. The first group is usually poor so I marked it. The rest are about what I expect from this rifle at 100 yards. Hope it helps.

5 shot group average including first group - 1.112"

5 shot group average w/o first group - .979"

</div></div>

While we're on the topic of what a rifle can do I shot mine again at 50 yards. I have to be honest I was freezing my ass off and the flyers are my fault and not the rifle/ammo. It's closer to a .3" gun @ 50, but you get the idea.

 

[Trental]

Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

If you want consistency you gotta put up the cash. Even then, weather variables are generally against you with .22lr.

With all things constant I can <span style="text-decoration: underline">generally</span>shoot sub MOA at 100yds with my Weatherby XXII (Anschutz 64 Match). That is with RWS Target Rifle ($7 per 50rds) and a 24x Leupold BR scope. You are looking at $1300 for scope and gun. Just like with centerfire... if you want consistency (accuracy) you gotta put up the cash.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

This is the best 5X5 I have ever shot at 110 yards. Not typical... the best I have ever shot

Yeah, it would be easy to post the .54, .55, and .65 MOA groups and say, "I typically get a little over half MOA."

But you can see in 25 shots, I was over MOA on one group and near MOA on another... and this is a great set of groups, by the way (the best I have ever agged). The aggregate is a little under .75 MOA. My overall agg is between .85 MOA and .9 MOA. When you aggregate 25 shots, it is tough to get very far under your long term average. I can show a few groups that are under half MOA. Those are the exception, not the rule.

Oh, and that long term aggregate isn't even right because I know I have trashed targets that were so bad, I didn't feel like measuring them.

Again, by my definition, this gun and ammo are just sub-MOA at 110 yards. Others might define it differently and call this a .5 or .6 MOA gun.

 

[RicosRevenge]

Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

Carter, I agree... it is a sub-MOA shooter at 110.

Just because Kobe scored 81 in a game doesn't mean he is an 80 point per game scorer.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

Carter thank you for your honesty. It doesn't help people who are here to learn, telling them half of a story. I have imagined some of the scenarios that may have played out here from reading some threads at face value. Hapless neophyte buys the latest thing and hammers incessantly at targets wondering what is wrong because he cannot recreate all the amazing things he has seen on the internet. Thanks to all who are shining the spotlight.
"The truth rings clear as a bell, but it isn't always tolled."

 

[pawprint]

Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

I have looked at a lot of scores from 100yard record shoots,The kind with witnesses and scoring, many of these events are found on this very board! I wish those that aren't really that good a shot would quit going to these events, it just packs it so full the really good 22lr-100yrd shooters don't even bother to go. I'd like to see an event where you had to qualify to participate, like maybe demonstate a consistent moa at 100, maybe three 10 shot strings with all being under one moa, that would be consistent, then the events would only have great shooters, it looks like many of these shoots don't even attrack one consistent moa shooter! Maybe some prize money would get these guys to show up.....I'm just saying.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paw print</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have looked at a lot of scores from 100yard record shoots,The kind with witnesses and scoring, many of these events are found on this very board! I wish those that aren't really that good a shot would quit going to these events, it just packs it so full the really good 22lr-100yrd shooters don't even bother to go. I'd like to see an event where you had to qualify to participate, like maybe demonstate a consistent moa at 100, maybe three 10 shot strings with all being under one moa, that would be consistent, then the events would only have great shooters, it looks like many of these shoots don't even attrack one consistent moa shooter! Maybe some prize money would get these guys to show up.....I'm just saying.</div></div>

I don't really know what you are saying at this point... yes, group size is largely dependent on the number of shots in a group as well. The comps on this board were 30 shots and then went down to 25 shots. Sub-MOA at 5 shots is different from sub-MOA at 10 shots is very different from sub-MOA at 25 shots.

I have shot the SH comps a lot and the closest I've gotten to MOA for 25 shots is here:

That is probably an honest 1.25 MOA group... but 25 shots is not a common measure. The more common measures used in benchrest are 5 and 10 shot groups with the standard used here on the Hide being 5 5-shot groups.

Further, the OP was asking about 1 MOA, which probably means it is acceptable to be up to 1.1 MOA to 1.2 MOA. This is achievable without a really expensive setup (I think... I don't know how to do anything gun-related on the cheap).

 

[SmallBoreSnipers]

Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

^ Ohhhh I remember that match *hangs head in shame* lol

 

[pawprint]

Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paw print</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have looked at a lot of scores from 100yard record shoots,The kind with witnesses and scoring, many of these events are found on this very board! I wish those that aren't really that good a shot would quit going to these events, it just packs it so full the really good 22lr-100yrd shooters don't even bother to go. I'd like to see an event where you had to qualify to participate, like maybe demonstate a consistent moa at 100, maybe three 10 shot strings with all being under one moa, that would be consistent, then the events would only have great shooters, it looks like many of these shoots don't even attrack one consistent moa shooter! Maybe some prize money would get these guys to show up.....I'm just saying.</div></div>

I don't really know what you are saying at this point... yes, group size is largely dependent on the number of shots in a group as well. The comps on this board were 30 shots and then went down to 25 shots. Sub-MOA at 5 shots is different from sub-MOA at 10 shots is very different from sub-MOA at 25 shots.

I have shot the SH comps a lot and the closest I've gotten to MOA for 25 shots is here:

That is probably an honest 1.25 MOA group... but 25 shots is not a common measure. The more common measures used in benchrest are 5 and 10 shot groups with the standard used here on the Hide being 5 5-shot groups.

Further, the OP was asking about 1 MOA, which probably means it is acceptable to be up to 1.1 MOA to 1.2 MOA. This is achievable without a really expensive setup (I think... I don't know how to do anything gun-related on the cheap).
</div></div>
How very right your are, in fact to carry your though regarding groups and numbers out a little further: a one shot group is almost always really good, but not usually as good as a 2shot group, and usually not as good as a three shot group........etc,etc I hope you get my drift, I know I got yours.When you say that for you one moa includes 1.1moa and 1.2moa, how about 1.4moa? For me, and only me, one moa, means one moa, I'm not criticizing your belief that "1" can mean 1 to 1.2 (or more), as many scope, gun and ammo makers count on that. Thankfully some do not. My point is, in tactical matches (not postal matches), real life matches at 100 yards, one moa is usually found on the top scorer's targets, it is far from common. When dealing with NRA 22 prone matches, it is far more common, the type and cost of the equipment is far different, and really should not be compared, but I've beaten this horse to death, we can believe what we want, we can go to matches and look for ourselves, if someone wants to believe something, you can't confuse them with facts, they're right regardless. btw, rimfire is a type of priming, 22lr is a rimfire round, but a 17 is not a 22lr, seems to be a little confusion as to what we are talking about, I am talking about a 22lr, not all rimfires.

 

[Trental]

Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paw print</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have looked at a lot of scores from 100yard record shoots,The kind with witnesses and scoring, many of these events are found on this very board! I wish those that aren't really that good a shot would quit going to these events, it just packs it so full the really good 22lr-100yrd shooters don't even bother to go. I'd like to see an event where you had to qualify to participate, like maybe demonstate a consistent moa at 100, maybe three 10 shot strings with all being under one moa, that would be consistent, then the events would only have great shooters, it looks like many of these shoots don't even attrack one consistent moa shooter! Maybe some prize money would get these guys to show up.....I'm just saying. </div></div>

Most shooting sports are having a hard enough time attracting regular numbers of competitors. Putting a restriction like that on any type of competition is sure to get you the same 5 guys showing up at every competition.

 

[RicosRevenge]

Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

Starting my list of guys I want to blow a Saturday shooting with...

Carter Mayfield
SmallBoreSniper
armorpl8chikn
parprint
Trental
LongShot

Always room for more!

 

[clmayfield]

Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

Send me a PM if you are ever passing through San Antonio. I have a lot of offers out there, but not many people have made it down here. A-train is the only board member I have met in person, though I know that there are folks who go to Bullet Hole Range, and so I must have run into someone there at some point because I live there.

 

[pawprint]

Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trental</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paw print</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have looked at a lot of scores from 100yard record shoots,The kind with witnesses and scoring, many of these events are found on this very board! I wish those that aren't really that good a shot would quit going to these events, it just packs it so full the really good 22lr-100yrd shooters don't even bother to go. I'd like to see an event where you had to qualify to participate, like maybe demonstate a consistent moa at 100, maybe three 10 shot strings with all being under one moa, that would be consistent, then the events would only have great shooters, it looks like many of these shoots don't even attrack one consistent moa shooter! Maybe some prize money would get these guys to show up.....I'm just saying. </div></div>

Most shooting sports are having a hard enough time attracting regular numbers of competitors. Putting a restriction like that on any type of competition is sure to get you the same 5 guys showing up at every competition. </div></div>Wow, didn't expect that type of comment, it just seems to me that with a MOA being common place, this would just be a easy filter, in fact as a MOA at 100 yards with a tactical 22 is common as dirt, this would only keep a very small number from even showing up. I don't know how many people show up for events where you live, but here in the Memphis TN area, we have large numbers for almost any event. Some clubs have small numbers of members, some have large numbers, but I wouldn't think that the number of members a club has would have any bearing on the fact that one moa at 100 with a 22lr tactical style rifle is common, as a percentage of the total number.

 

[Glock45]

Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

I have a Remington 504(essentially a rimfire 700) that the best I can squeeze outta it is 1.5" @ 100yds. I shoot a Winchester 42gr LRN. What gives? A combo of me, need for lighter trigger, and perhaps the breeze to go away. I have a Nikon 3-9x on it, usually set at 6.

They aren't an easy rifle to find in the stores, but gunbroker usually has a few.

I also have a CZ 452 Trainer(iron sights) I have fun with. Haven't quite had the courage to iron sight @ 100yds, but I plink 12ga shotgun shells(alrady fired/shot) @ 25 yds all day. That's just fun to have a race to knock 'em off the target board with a friend or two.

I do not own, but had the opportunity to fire a Winchester 52. . . . WOW!! Talk about a sweeeeeet rifle. But, *IF* you can find one, it's a minimum of $700 from what I've seen.

Also realize that .22's are VERY ammo finicky!!!

Best of luck!

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RicosRevenge</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Starting my list of guys I want to blow a Saturday shooting with...

Carter Mayfield
SmallBoreSniper
armorpl8chikn
parprint
Trental
LongShot

Always room for more! </div></div>
RR if you ever come to NC let me know. We will be shooting our 22TSC match all summer starting in March and you can dang sure spend an entire Saturday shooting trainers beyond the intended purpose. Here is the match info:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2041255#Post2041255

 

[RicosRevenge]

Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

Thanks guys... same thing goes if you are in Dallas.

 

[long-shot]

Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RicosRevenge</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Starting my list of guys I want to blow a Saturday shooting with...

Carter Mayfield
SmallBoreSniper
armorpl8chikn
parprint
Trental
LongShot

Always room for more! </div></div>

I am grateful for any chance to embarrass myself and get my ass kicked.

Thanks!

 

[astro3006]

Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

They shoot 22 lr f-class in Ms. Here are some of the targets they've shot in the competition 100 yrd 10 shot score. http://www.msgunowners.com/t15327-who-s-who-shooting-a-100

 

[jeffm]

Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

Anyone who says consistent 1 MOA at 100 with a .22 rim fire is easy is either very lucky, has a very expensive rifle shooting very expensive ammo with no wind, or doesn’t know what they are talking about. I just finished shooting my 8th 500 round brick of .22 this summer, along with a large verity of cheap and expensive ammo. I am playing with 4 rifles, a CZ 452, 2 custom 10/22’s, and a Savage MK II. The only thing I have found consistent about .22 rim fire is that the ammo is inconsistent. I have shot 1 moa groups with each rifle, but nothing consistent. There is a lot of vertical stringing, which tells me the velocity of the ammo is inconsistent enough that, the up and down is rarely good enough for 1 MOA, and a little wind will kill your left to right. My guess is that a good .22 with good ammo is more likely to shoot 1.5 to 2 moa at 100, with an occasional 1MOA group.
I recently read that the world bench rest record for .22 rim fire was and average of .6 for 10 10 round groups. They way people talk around hear, half the 10/22s at Wal-Mart will shoot that well.

 

[steve123]

Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jeffm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone who says consistent 1 MOA at 100 with a .22 rim fire is easy is either very lucky, has a very expensive rifle shooting very expensive ammo with no wind, or doesn’t know what they are talking about. I just finished shooting my 8th 500 round brick of .22 this summer, along with a large verity of cheap and expensive ammo. I am playing with 4 rifles, a CZ 452, 2 custom 10/22’s, and a Savage MK II. The only thing I have found consistent about .22 rim fire is that the ammo is inconsistent. I have shot 1 moa groups with each rifle, but nothing consistent. There is a lot of vertical stringing, which tells me the velocity of the ammo is inconsistent enough that, the up and down is rarely good enough for 1 MOA, and a little wind will kill your left to right. My guess is that a good .22 with good ammo is more likely to shoot 1.5 to 2 moa at 100, with an occasional 1MOA group.
I recently read that the world bench rest record for .22 rim fire was and average of .6 for 10 10 round groups. They way people talk around hear, half the 10/22s at Wal-Mart will shoot that well.
</div></div>

I agree totally!!!

Don't know too much about BR.Were the .6 groups shot at 50Y or 100Y ? .6" or .6 MOA ?

 

[jeffm]

Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

What I read was that the 100 yard record for .22 rim fire was an average of .6 MOA for 10, 10 shot groups.

 

[steve123]

Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

Looks like group size correlated with the Bleiker.I think the Bleiker was shot indoors though.

Heck,if I get a 1 moa 5 shot group at 100Y I'm happy.It's mostly reading the wind wrong or the vertical issues that get me.I don't go to any rimfire comps so I stay with Wolf MT which throws some flyers here and there.