Gunsmithing 1 of a kind.... just had a rifle "tan" nitrided..

[-=boone=-]

Re: 1 of a kind.... just had a rifle "tan" nitrided..

I can vouch for Brandon and tell you everything he has said and will say is 100% fact. Like all smart engineers Brandon saved all in the information and directions that were sent to H&M.

I saw his rifle before it left his house with the permanent marker coloring on it. Read his instructions sent to H&M, which were unbelievably sound.

Watched him screw his thread protector, RAD brake and TBAC 30P-1 on before it left for this treatment. All spun up perfect.

To get his treated brake off I held the action while Brandon spun the brake off. I had to stop him and get a towel to wrap the action in because the rail was cutting threw my hands.

I hope H&M does step up and make this right. So far I haven't been impressed.

 

[Ring]

Re: 1 of a kind.... just had a rifle "tan" nitrided..

the only thing i can think of happening, is the barrel was done with the brake on, then after wen blasted, the bast materal got into the thread from the slot in the brake.. then when removed it made a mess...

to me that is the only thing that makes sense

 

[turbo54]

Re: 1 of a kind.... just had a rifle "tan" nitrided..

I'm sorry to hear about the trouble!

I come from an engineering and manufacturing background and have had lots of experience sending stuff out for heat treat. I've never dealt with a shop that guarantees their work. They have good reputations, and usually the part comes out right, but not always. The only compensation I've ever gotten is they'll try again for free... Very, very different from the firearms industry, where so many businesses bend over backwards to make things RIGHT. Because H&M is involved (somewhat) with the firearms industry, maybe/I hope they will do something good to remedy the problem.

I had a piece of 17-4 stainless 22" in diameter and 48" long we had spent $8000 on for metal alone. Then we spent three weeks machining it. We wanted an H900 heat treatment, but the shop (not H&M) did an H800 instead. The part was therefore scrap. What did they do for us? They said "sorry".

I've come to "accept" there's no better example than heat treat for the saying "you pay your money and you take your chances".

I just sent H&M $5000 worth of stuff to mess up...hope it works out!

ETA: I just reread H&Ms terms of service on their "contact us" page... Looks to be the typical heat treat shop disclaimer that basically says (paraphrasing) "We'll do our best, but we don't promise anything, and we sure don't guarantee anything"...

I'm not hating on H&M or the fella whose part got hurt!! Just relaying my experience with heat treat!

 

[Wolfish365]

Re: 1 of a kind.... just had a rifle "tan" nitrided..

Hmm, interesting. Are they able to do TiCN?

 

[turbo54]

Re: 1 of a kind.... just had a rifle "tan" nitrided..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: G_Wolf_29</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hmm, interesting. Are they able to do TiCN? </div></div>

No. TiCN is a PVD process, not a heat treatment.

 

[Brandon05_88]

Re: 1 of a kind.... just had a rifle "tan" nitrided..

I agree Ring. What is most aggravating is that it was preventable. Just the fact directions were ignored and a corner was cut or laziness.

Turbo, yeah I guess firearms companies spoil you. I always felt that a reputable company that makes a mistake views it as an opportunity to make it right. Turns it into a great reference for customer service. I'm also in the engineering field. Could you imagine if a PE stamp had a disclaimer "We'll do our best, but we don't promise anything, and we sure don't guarantee anything"?

 

[turbo54]

Re: 1 of a kind.... just had a rifle "tan" nitrided..

Brandon, as a PE myself - your sarcastic humor is NOT lost on me.

Thanks for a nice, solid, hearty laugh!

 

[Brandon05_88]

Re: 1 of a kind.... just had a rifle "tan" nitrided..

You're welcome man. 2 more years and I can sit for the Personality Erasement exam. Lol

 

[Brandon05_88]

Re: 1 of a kind.... just had a rifle "tan" nitrided..

Double post.

 

[ddavis]

Re: 1 of a kind.... just had a rifle "tan" nitrided..

Hope everything works out for you. The treatment DOES add material. My thread protector fit perfectly before being sent in. I sent it in NOT on the rifle, for fear of what happened to you. I wanted to eliminate any chance of problems that I could. When I screwed it on the first time, it would only go on about halfway by hand. I had to put the thread protector in a vice and lube it up with grease to get it to thread the rest of the way. It did not require a great deal of strength to thread on once in a vice, but it was still not possible to thread on by hand. After that first time, it is snug, but I can thread it on and off by hand. I hope I don't have the same problem with a brake or suppressor. Overall, I'm still happy I had it done. Look forward to hearing what H&M has to say. Definitely call and ask to speak with Shade.
-Dan

 

[Brandon05_88]

Re: 1 of a kind.... just had a rifle "tan" nitrided..

ddavis, that is what is confusing me. I had a Surgeon 591 and Bartlein treated that were fitted together...tight. They went together great afterwards. Very smooth screwing the barrel in. The brake is cut allowing it to index but could also let it expand if need be.

I even assumed maybe the thickness of treatment on both materials decreased the clearance just as you are. I too tried the grease but with the same result.

Let me know how speaking with Shade goes. I spoke with him Monday morning, and he mentioned he would have to call a few people.

 

[eracer]

Re: 1 of a kind.... just had a rifle "tan" nitrided..

I'm waiting on a Bartlein barrel and a Defiant action for my first F-class gun. I plan to have the gunsmith cut the chamber, join barrel to action, fire 5 rounds through it, then disassemble and send it off for nitriding.

My understanding is that nitriding adds at most .003" to the surface of SS. Surely this is well within the tolerance of any machined gun part (including screw threads.) Right?

 

[Ring]

Re: 1 of a kind.... just had a rifle "tan" nitrided..

"My understanding is that nitriding adds at most .003" to the surface of SS"

where did u get that from?... its a heat treat, it dont add anthing, other then residue that needs cleaned off... i head spaced my gun to zero before sending it in, sent it compleat, in the action... head space didnt change when i got it back...

 

[Lofty]

Re: 1 of a kind.... just had a rifle "tan" nitrided..

Hmmmm.....I was on the fence over this.

I think Im going to get off the fence for right now.....maybe wait until some more feedback about this process comes to light.

 

[turbo54]

Re: 1 of a kind.... just had a rifle "tan" nitrided..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hmmmm.....I was on the fence over this.

I think Im going to get off the fence for right now.....maybe wait until some more feedback about this process comes to light.

</div></div>

I understand your perspective.

When you dunk a precision piece of metal into a tank of viciously boiling molten salt and cook it for 30-40 minutes, sometimes you'll have trouble.

From the reports I've seen, the track record is exactly what I'd expect: It's good to go MOST of the time.

If you're waiting for a spotless track record, you'll wait a long time.

 

[ddavis]

Re: 1 of a kind.... just had a rifle "tan" nitrided..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ring</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"My understanding is that nitriding adds at most .003" to the surface of SS"

where did u get that from?... its a heat treat, it dont add anthing, other then residue that needs cleaned off... i head spaced my gun to zero before sending it in, sent it compleat, in the action... head space didnt change when i got it back... </div></div>

I don't believe that it does not add anything. Like I said, before being nitrided, my thread protector fit very snug but could be taken on and off by hand. After nitriding I had to thread it on using a vise. I think it adds a very slight amount, and if I remember reading correctly before I had it done, it does in fact add an almost insignificant amount. When you have 2 pieces done with that 'insignificant' amount, and they fit tight to begin with, it may become significant.

I have no reason to call Shade, as mine turned out exactly as I expected, but I recommended that you do if you are having problems. He seems like a good guy and hopefully you guys can work something out.
-Dan

 

[Lofty]

Re: 1 of a kind.... just had a rifle "tan" nitrided..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hmmmm.....I was on the fence over this.

I think Im going to get off the fence for right now.....maybe wait until some more feedback about this process comes to light.

</div></div>

I understand your perspective.

When you dunk a precision piece of metal into a tank of viciously boiling molten salt and cook it for 30-40 minutes, sometimes you'll have trouble.

From the reports I've seen, the track record is exactly what I'd expect: It's good to go MOST of the time.

If you're waiting for a spotless track record, you'll wait a long time. </div></div>

Absolutely.....Im not expecting perfect results.

Im just waiting until a little more light is shed on whether or not the risk is worth the reward. I havent seen enough evidence that shows me theres a significant benefit yet.

 

[Ring]

Re: 1 of a kind.... just had a rifle "tan" nitrided..

i can say this.. i have personaly done 10 barrels, out of those 4 were barreled actions... ive done 4 or 5 brakes... and 1 308 silencer...

out of those the only bad thing i had happen was doing a chrome lined barrel... it distroid the chrome... and made it a 4moa barrel...

 

[turbo54]

Re: 1 of a kind.... just had a rifle "tan" nitrided..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Absolutely.....Im not expecting perfect results.

Im just waiting until a little more light is shed on whether or not the risk is worth the reward. I havent seen enough evidence that shows me theres a significant benefit yet. </div></div>

Good point. Other than scratch and corrosion resistance, I don't think melonite has been "proven" to be a benefit.

There's lots of claims about barrel life - they vary so wildly from one person to the next, my opinion is no one really knows yet.

I'll take donations to go towards conducting a test: I'll get 4 "identical" 6.5mm barrels, chamber them all in 6.5-284 or 220Swift, melonite 2 of them, then run all 4 into the ground, documenting round count.

 

[Ring]

Re: 1 of a kind.... just had a rifle "tan" nitrided..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Good point. Other than scratch and corrosion resistance, I don't think melonite has been "proven" to be a benefit.

There's lots of claims about barrel life - they vary so wildly from one person to the next, my opinion is no one really knows yet.
</div></div>

...

SPR Barrel Bore Scope Examination at 1000 Rounds with Hard Blue.
http://www.superiorbarrels.com/Barrel%20Testing/Bore%20Scope%20examination%20at%201000%20rounds.htm

Barrel #22 Professional Bore Scope Evaluation at 2191 and 5000 rounds, & shooting/cleaning schedule to 5000 rounds.
http://www.superiorbarrels.com/Barrel%20Testing/Barrel%2022.htm

Full auto 1000-round Comparison Test: Professional bore scope evaluation.
http://www.superiorbarrels.com/Barrel%20Testing/Full%20Auto%20test/SBs.htm

 

[turbo54]

Re: 1 of a kind.... just had a rifle "tan" nitrided..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ring</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Good point. Other than scratch and corrosion resistance, I don't think melonite has been "proven" to be a benefit.

There's lots of claims about barrel life - they vary so wildly from one person to the next, my opinion is no one really knows yet.
</div></div>

...

SPR Barrel Bore Scope Examination at 1000 Rounds with Hard Blue.
http://www.superiorbarrels.com/Barrel%20Testing/Bore%20Scope%20examination%20at%201000%20rounds.htm

Barrel #22 Professional Bore Scope Evaluation at 2191 and 5000 rounds, & shooting/cleaning schedule to 5000 rounds.
http://www.superiorbarrels.com/Barrel%20Testing/Barrel%2022.htm

Full auto 1000-round Comparison Test: Professional bore scope evaluation.
http://www.superiorbarrels.com/Barrel%20Testing/Full%20Auto%20test/SBs.htm </div></div>

Thanks for posting that - interesting read for sure.

 

[Hntelk]

Re: 1 of a kind.... just had a rifle "tan" nitrided..

Ring...sent you a PM...rifle is here and ready to go