Well after attending a introduction class to F-Class, F-T/R and Wind Reading put on by Denys at Bayou Rifle I caught the itch to start entering some of the local matches. Thanks Denys for a great day! Question is will I be able to possibly come up w/ a load that will stay supersonic at 1000 yards w/ a 20" barrel? (Howa 1500 w/ 20" Barrel 1:10 twist). I know it's not optimal and I know shooting that distance w/ a 20" barrel is doable but any powder/bullet combo that will stay supersonic? I am still getting the hang of some of the software programs (JBM / GSEVEN). I will be doing the 300 yard and 600 yard matches but would really like to be able to safely compete in the 1000 yards as well. Should i just settle w/ just cutting my teeth w/ the 300 & 600 yard matches and wait till time to rebarrel? Thanks for any help and/or advise.
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F T/R Competition 1000 yards w/ 20" barrel?
- Thread starter CGGunnersm8
- Start date
Berger 185 Juggernauts over Varget or Pro MR 2000 would probably be your best combo if you can find a load that works in your rifle.
H4895 around 44.0 grains at mag length with 155 Scenar will be around 2900fps and work fairly well at 1000 yards.
45.0 grains loaded to lands will get you 2950 or so. This load is too hot for mag length loads but at 2.92" in my 20" it does real well.
The 185s will be hard to get going fast enough in 20"
Start at 43 and load up.
45.0 grains loaded to lands will get you 2950 or so. This load is too hot for mag length loads but at 2.92" in my 20" it does real well.
The 185s will be hard to get going fast enough in 20"
Start at 43 and load up.
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You can do it,,,,just don't expect too much on the performance end as you will be shooting against others getting 200-300fps higher velocities from 30" or more length in their barrels. There have been those with exceptional wind reading talent that have surprised other shooters with longer barrels. Something to work towards. Show'em how to do it!!!
That rifle and barrel will do it. My buddy has won both 2nd and 1st place ribbons at the Palomino Valley Gun Club F/TR 1,000 yard shoots using that same rifle. All he did was drop it in a B&C stock, bed it, and add a ghetto cheek rest. He is shooting 175 SMK over IMR 4064.
The whole weekend is a blur now; there was a huge attendance for the one day class and we had a rather large 1000 yard match the next day.
I freely admit that I do not have the experience of the other people who have weighed in so far of your question, but let me just restate what I said during the afternoon session to the group who was coaching me. My goal is not just to be supersonic at the target, I want my bullets to be above Mach 1.25 at the coldest temperature I will likely ever shoot in. It is my belief that the transonic area is from Mach 0.95 to Mach 1.25, or that's what I remember from my interest in aeronautics. I don't know if you were there when I explained my reasoning but that's it in a nutshell. Currently, my bullets are above Mach 1.4 at the 1000 yard target at Bayou and faster than that in summer, with heat and humidity both at 100.
The club's rule is that your bullets must be supersonic at the target because we know that some bullets can tumble and become erratic when going subsonic. We do not want the experience in the pits to be one fraught with uncertainty and panic. When we do detect that bullets are coming in subsonically, if they are not keyholing on target, the MD may elect to let the competitor continue.
Shooting at 1000 yards with a 20 inch .308 rifle in a target area manned by fellow competitors may not be the best way to make friends. Also, at Bayou Rifles, the conditions are usually either very bad or difficult to read. This past weekend we had a couple of new shooters with 24 inch barrels come out and play and it was epic. Not only does it frazzle the puller who doesn't like to hunt all over the 36 square feet of target for your little bullet hole at every shot, but you are liable to get frustrated getting blown off the target or anger the guy next to you when your bullet drifts into his target. Calling for marks and asking for visuals on the impact of your bullets gets disruptive for the other shooters.
My suggestion to you is to go and play at the 300 and then learn all you can at the 600. At Bayou the wind will be a major factor at the 600 yard line and you will come to decide to get a proper barrel and load before coming to the 1000 yards. If you insist on coming to the 1000 with your 20 inch barrel, please wait until you get an Expert card from the 600 yard matches or a Master from the 300 yard matches.
I think I did explain a few times that barrels are like tires on a car; they are consumables.
I freely admit that I do not have the experience of the other people who have weighed in so far of your question, but let me just restate what I said during the afternoon session to the group who was coaching me. My goal is not just to be supersonic at the target, I want my bullets to be above Mach 1.25 at the coldest temperature I will likely ever shoot in. It is my belief that the transonic area is from Mach 0.95 to Mach 1.25, or that's what I remember from my interest in aeronautics. I don't know if you were there when I explained my reasoning but that's it in a nutshell. Currently, my bullets are above Mach 1.4 at the 1000 yard target at Bayou and faster than that in summer, with heat and humidity both at 100.
The club's rule is that your bullets must be supersonic at the target because we know that some bullets can tumble and become erratic when going subsonic. We do not want the experience in the pits to be one fraught with uncertainty and panic. When we do detect that bullets are coming in subsonically, if they are not keyholing on target, the MD may elect to let the competitor continue.
Shooting at 1000 yards with a 20 inch .308 rifle in a target area manned by fellow competitors may not be the best way to make friends. Also, at Bayou Rifles, the conditions are usually either very bad or difficult to read. This past weekend we had a couple of new shooters with 24 inch barrels come out and play and it was epic. Not only does it frazzle the puller who doesn't like to hunt all over the 36 square feet of target for your little bullet hole at every shot, but you are liable to get frustrated getting blown off the target or anger the guy next to you when your bullet drifts into his target. Calling for marks and asking for visuals on the impact of your bullets gets disruptive for the other shooters.
My suggestion to you is to go and play at the 300 and then learn all you can at the 600. At Bayou the wind will be a major factor at the 600 yard line and you will come to decide to get a proper barrel and load before coming to the 1000 yards. If you insist on coming to the 1000 with your 20 inch barrel, please wait until you get an Expert card from the 600 yard matches or a Master from the 300 yard matches.
I think I did explain a few times that barrels are like tires on a car; they are consumables.
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I disagree, my partners 21" gun runs 185's a little over 2700 now with Varget, and most see a good 30fps faster with Pro MR2000. Even 2600 with a .560 BC that bullet will be supersonic until 1200.
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Thanks everyone for piping in. Denys, you stated exactly what I was leaning toward. As much as I would like to just jump in the deep end w/ the sharks. I will refrain from jumping in and slapping the sharks that might be willing to help me swim. Thanks again everyone. Valuable information as always around here.
Load some 175 and 185 gr bullets and chrono. That'll give you the real answer instead of faceless typers on the internet. As I said, I have a friend with the EXACT action/barrel you have and he is winning the 1,000 yd F/TR shoots shooting 175 SMK. No speculation or random extrapolation. Just fact.
I think the next Mid-Range match at Bayou is 600, bring what you have and get some trigger and wind time in...
-pd
-pd
I won't bite and I will even help you when you come play at the 1000 yard line. As you saw at the training day, the "sharks" as you may think of us, are happy to bring in fresh meat, I mean new shooters and help them become competitive.
What I love about this thread is that I am learning so much. For instance, my 32 inch barrel shoots my 180gr JLKs at about 2850FPS using a near max load of Varget. The Hodgdon website shows their 24 inch test barrels pushing out a 180gr bullet from 2400 to 2650. But I guess we all know that powder manufacturers' data is very pessimistic and everyone gets higher velocities that what is found in the book, especially with shorter barrels.
As I have said before, on the Internet everyone's rifles produce higher velocities and never show any signs of pressures. I'll just remain the faceless typer on the Internet who's class you attended this past weekend and can meet every first Sunday of the month at the Long Range match.
At the match this weekend, the conditions were pretty bad. I was watching the mirage going one way at 600 yards in spotting scope, and either not moving or going the other way in my riflescope. The flags, as usual, were of little help as they all said different things. I opted for one indicator and banged away. I was doing ok until my penultimate shot which turned out an 8 right at 3 o'clock. I never saw the increase (I check my spotting scope before and after each shot.) If my bullet had been going 300FPS less out of a non-magical 20 inch barrel, it would have been a 6 or 5, or worse. I took the next shot, the last one of the string, with the same hold and got a 10 for a 194-5X for the string. During the second string, I had a frain bart coupled with a senior moment and pulled the bolt open, dropping a full load of Varget in the action. The clean-up took a while. On the last string, my puller managed to yank the target out of the carrier and it was 5 minutes before I could shoot again (my scorer was laughing, the fiend.) By that time I had missed all the conditions and shot a 189-3X. It is what it is and that day was just nasty. I ended up with a 574-11X, which was a bit of a letdown, but thankfully nobody else was shooting a 20inch rifle so I ended up winning the match.
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I shot Hornady 178 HPBT over 44.2 gr of Varget in my 20 inch rifle by Accurate Ordnance. I think the FPS was around 2670ish. Worked well for me. I don't know if this was my dope or not, it's been a while since I shot that load.
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No disagreement. It will depend on lots of things.
My 20" has tight bore 1x11.25 5R Obermeyer and palma chamber. The 155s Scenars work best for me and 185s force too much bullet in case to get that velocity
Everyone's weapon is different.
Denny you ver wonder if maybe some guys chrono's are off.
Best I get from my 30" with 185s and great groups is 2800fps. This is what team ran for ideal velocity in last Worlds with 185 Bergers.
My 220s run hard are at 2600fps in 30" barrel.
These are with fresh tubes and long loaded. Raton at 75 air temp.
I didn't want to bring that up lest some people feel insulted that their chronos or technique are being questioned. When I measured my load, the barrel was new and the chrono's first screen was exactly 12 feet from the barrel. So with 5 grain lighter bullet and 2 inches longer on the barrel, our two velocities are similar, especially with two different chronos and at different locations. I have not chronoed my load in that barrel since.
Very true!! That's what I meant you just said it better then I did. Yeah, 155's with the tight bore can do some pretty amazing stuff. I'm currantly working on trued 700 with a 25" .300 bore Rock Creek. I'll be running 185's over the Pro Mr2000 and I'm really hoping to see 2800, but expecting to see 2750-2770.
I may give the 155's a go if I can't get the 185's to work, I hear the 155 Scenars are very easy to work with.
My partners load originally chrono'd 2660 but after about 100 rounds he saw a drastic increase and dope was way off, it's now doping above 2700 consistently, we learned a hard lesson at a comp this past weekend. Our regular chrono has been hit and miss sometimes but I borrowed a Magneto and its spot on. I actually had a major velocity problem with my gun not too long ago and the Magneto help me sort it out. My dope is now VERY accurate and is on with my dope.
Barrels can be very different and can change dramatically once broken in well from firing a few hundred rounds.
I've researched a lot too on the 185's and Pro MR2000, it seems to be the ticket for the heavies. I will definitely provide an update and results once my build is completed this month.
I won't dispute anyone's velocity numbers. I will say that running Quickload on some of the zippy hot short barrel velocities/loads listed above, I hope I'm not lying next to them on the line when something gives way. Shooting F-TR is not simply about "getting there". A .223 with factory ammo can get there. It's about having a safe and highly accurate/precise load...one that won't trash your brass after two or three firings...one that gives plus or minus half minute vertical...one that uses as high a BC bullet as possible for that rifle to minimize wind deflection...the list goes on and on. The .308 is far from the ideal caliber for shooting 20-shot strings precisely and accurately at 1000 yd. For that reason, people use 30" barrels and high bullets to get every possible advantage they can.
Is it possible to develop a load out of a 20" barrel that will shoot (possibly even staying supersonic) at 1000 yd? Sure it is. Is it possible to do that without being way overpressure? Maybe with the right chamber/powder. Is it possible to match the performance of a rifle with a 30" (or more) barrel and heavy high BC bullets? Not a chance. If you want to go down that road and you want to be competitive, you'll need to have really, really solid wind reading skills. It can definitely be done, but it's a much more uphill battle for a new shooter.
Is it possible to develop a load out of a 20" barrel that will shoot (possibly even staying supersonic) at 1000 yd? Sure it is. Is it possible to do that without being way overpressure? Maybe with the right chamber/powder. Is it possible to match the performance of a rifle with a 30" (or more) barrel and heavy high BC bullets? Not a chance. If you want to go down that road and you want to be competitive, you'll need to have really, really solid wind reading skills. It can definitely be done, but it's a much more uphill battle for a new shooter.
No, not really to the last part. The fact is that against a shooter with equal wind reading skill you will bleed points to his better performing equipment. Winners have to agg over 3 or more matches. There are times when you'll actually see an F-TR rifle out shoot the F-open guns for 15 or even 20 shots from time to time, but at the end of the day the better performing rounds make it up.
That is not to say that you shouldn't come out and shoot what you have, you will learn a lot, but you will be participating. To compete will require a commitment in time and equipment.
I completely agree but most here run loads that way because most are tactical rifles that are shorter because suppressors are being used or are short to help mobility. OP asking about a 20" rifle in FTR, I feel he will have to run hot loads to be sone what competitive.
Running between 43.5-44.5 grains of Varget or 46.5-47.5 of Pro Power should still net the OP great velocity considering the handicap of a 20" barrel and he should still be able to get 4-5 reloads from brass, maybe more, every rifles different as stated by another poster.
Since this is the F-class competition forum, I question the need for mobility and we know suppressors are not allowed in F-class. Of course, this takes us to the issue of why use a tactical rifle in F-class LR in the first place. You can bring whatever legal-for-competition rifle you want to the line, but if you expect to be competitive in F-class, it's best to have an F-class rifle. For LR F-class, a 20 inch barrel is contra-indicated regardless of what all the tactical shooters say. There is a reason virtually all the rifles on the line at FCNC and FCWC, as well as Palma events all have barrels 30+ inches long. If there was any benefit to a shorter barrel, the folks would be all over it.
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I agree completely with Wade here. In F-TR wind reading is that more critical compared to F-Open. So when the shooters have equivalent understanding of the conditions, the F-Open shooter will usually score higher. It can be pretty even in trigger-pulling situations, but when the wind blows, stuff happens.
I especially like the oft-repeated comment to the effect "sure you can beat a better (with proper barrel and ammo to match) rifle, all you have to do is read the wind better than he does."
Cheez, why didn't I think of that? (Insert loud sound of forehead getting slapped.) I could have saved a bunch of money in equipment and components, in competition fees and travel costs, if only I had learned to read the wind before starting. Talk about bad planning on my part.
Great stuff. Appreciate it all. I will definitely be out there w/ my Howa 1500 in a B&C stock w/ 20" barrel starting this month or next to the 300 and 600 yard matches. I would like to "Participate" in the 1000 yards, but as I want to be completely safe about it; i'll hold off for a while. Still not comfortable w/ getting near the max loads. I'll have to say I enjoy being the guy w/ the lesser equipment hold his own. Now if the NRA would hurry w/ my Member #.
I've got the same howa .308 20" barrel, I shoot 175 bergers with 4064 and have taken it out to 1260 with no problems other than the wind. I believe I'm right at 2560 through my chronograph so it has been subsonic for several 100 yards by the time it hits 1260. Mines in a bc stock with a rifle basix trigger a fte brake and a SB 5x 25. It's my go to hog gun when I want to make hits on the next hill.
Denys,
Are there plans to hold another wind reading clinic? The timing was awful for us sling + iron shooters as we were at Panola for the regional match.
On a side note, I love all the tactical shooters on this forum shooting 20" "long range guns" through internet chronos that give high velocities...i wish one or two of them would come out to our matches and put all of us to shame.
I shoot 20" and 22" service rifles at 1,000yards in the sling + irons class...yeah the bullet get's there, but it's hard to keep it all in the X or 10ring when the wind picks up at all... every 1mph increase in wind is about 0.8 to 1 MOA change in POI horizontally at 1,000yards...assuming the conditions are readable. 600yards is more doable, but you will still be at a disadvantage to guys with 30-32" barrels shooting the same pills 200-300ft/s faster.
Are there plans to hold another wind reading clinic? The timing was awful for us sling + iron shooters as we were at Panola for the regional match.
On a side note, I love all the tactical shooters on this forum shooting 20" "long range guns" through internet chronos that give high velocities...i wish one or two of them would come out to our matches and put all of us to shame.
I shoot 20" and 22" service rifles at 1,000yards in the sling + irons class...yeah the bullet get's there, but it's hard to keep it all in the X or 10ring when the wind picks up at all... every 1mph increase in wind is about 0.8 to 1 MOA change in POI horizontally at 1,000yards...assuming the conditions are readable. 600yards is more doable, but you will still be at a disadvantage to guys with 30-32" barrels shooting the same pills 200-300ft/s faster.
Tx_Flyboy. As you know at BRI we have 3 match directors for Highpower; Long Range, yours truly; Mid-range 300/600 and XTC. I'm an F-class guy and the other 2 directors are slingers. This past weekend's event was billed as a Long Range Weekend, with competition exposure and training on Saturday morning and a wind reading class in the afternoon at my second home, AKA the 1000 yard line. When I chose the date, nobody informed me that there was a regional that weekend in our neck of the woods. And even if I had known, the only thing I would have done is simply not have it. We shoot LR the first Sunday of every month and it was a few weeks before TSRA LR that I decided we would have it before summer and after TSRA. That left May 3rd since we had no match in April and could not have gotten ready by then anyway. Come June and it's too hot. I had already scheduled May to be a full registered match, so it was perfect. Well, except for the Iron Sighted guys.
This was a lot of work and I was dead come Sunday afternoon after the match. I don't want to do this again any time soon; it was a great success and I'm very happy we did it. Take it up with next year's LR match director or you could talk the Mid-range MD or the XTC MD into organizing one.
This was a lot of work and I was dead come Sunday afternoon after the match. I don't want to do this again any time soon; it was a great success and I'm very happy we did it. Take it up with next year's LR match director or you could talk the Mid-range MD or the XTC MD into organizing one.
All this reminds me of something my Dad who was a professional Boxer in his youth told me about boxing.
A good little make will beat a big man but if a good little man fights a good big man the good little man will get his clock cleaned.
Seems to apply here.
You can never go by the occasional win with a short barrel and think it will keep up with the best. I encourage you to use up that 20" barrel getting better at wind reading and then change to longer barrel.
I read someone say they could hit steel at 1200 plus yards so it must be a good combo. I once hit a coyote at 400 yards with a 22LR but that was luck and not best tool for job. A 5" circle at 1000 yards is a small target and it does not take much wind to blow you out to an 8 or less so the advantage of a longer barrel adds up at the end of the day
A good little make will beat a big man but if a good little man fights a good big man the good little man will get his clock cleaned.
Seems to apply here.
You can never go by the occasional win with a short barrel and think it will keep up with the best. I encourage you to use up that 20" barrel getting better at wind reading and then change to longer barrel.
I read someone say they could hit steel at 1200 plus yards so it must be a good combo. I once hit a coyote at 400 yards with a 22LR but that was luck and not best tool for job. A 5" circle at 1000 yards is a small target and it does not take much wind to blow you out to an 8 or less so the advantage of a longer barrel adds up at the end of the day
Enjoyable thread for sure.
Wished I had more time to play in F-Class.
Denys, thank you for taking the time to get others started.
I shot my first F-class match last August in Raton, and had a great time and met a lot of great people.
Plan to make the Nationals in October this year.
To the OP: Just get in there and start shooting. The guys are very helpful. We have all been there at one time or another. I had never run pits, scored, shot F-Class or competed with a rifle before until this past August at the Nat/World. I learned a lot! Experience and good mentors are your two best teachers.
Wished I had more time to play in F-Class.
Denys, thank you for taking the time to get others started.
I shot my first F-class match last August in Raton, and had a great time and met a lot of great people.
Plan to make the Nationals in October this year.
To the OP: Just get in there and start shooting. The guys are very helpful. We have all been there at one time or another. I had never run pits, scored, shot F-Class or competed with a rifle before until this past August at the Nat/World. I learned a lot! Experience and good mentors are your two best teachers.
My buddy new to FTR has been doing it with a howa 1500 at palomino, we went out an did load development for both guns
His 20" howa and my 30" savage
I've blown primers where he is flattening them
We are both useing the same load
Lapua brass, fed primers
Sierra 175's an a good doze of 4064.
An since he got way into it I gave him my spare barrel blank 30" Brux
No he can't wait for it to come back from the smith,
Anything is possible if you do your part
His 20" howa and my 30" savage
I've blown primers where he is flattening them
We are both useing the same load
Lapua brass, fed primers
Sierra 175's an a good doze of 4064.
An since he got way into it I gave him my spare barrel blank 30" Brux
No he can't wait for it to come back from the smith,
Anything is possible if you do your part
I too used to ring steel 24"x24" consistently out to 1200 yards with my Tiki a Varmint, then I shot F/TR! Bring that 20" tube down to range 117 at Camp Pendleton and see how often you keep it in.the 10 ring! I dare you! , Lol.
Diego
Diego
My howa 20" just loves 4064 and berger 175 otm's. It will with regular monotony shoot around a 1" at 300 yds. It is the humbler of many who have come out here to shoot. The farthest I've taken it is 1160 yds. and although it's not by any means a perfect round for these distances it is still more than adequate.
And earlier you wrote:
It's difficult to keep track, so which is it, 1160 or 1260? :big_grin:
And I did like the caveat about not having any problems other than the wind. That's my problem also and this is where faster is better.
I will add my 2 bits. Mike (Tactical) is right that the 155 grainers will get you closer to where you need to be velocity wise. It is just easier to get sufficiently supersonic at 1,000 with some of the 155 grainers that are out there (the Lapua Scenar and Berger 155 BTHP are both great choices). I could not get either of those choices to shoot for me, so I went to Berger 185 Hybrids in my 22 in barrel.
Using JBM ballistics, I was getting to Mach 1.18 at 1,000 yards. Sounds good enough, right? I could not hit a 6' X 6' target consistently. Finally, I saw a sideways bullet impact and realized I was not going fast enough. With a much stronger charge, I was able to get there. I needed to be going 2690 fps, which, according to JBM, gets me to about mach 1.22 at 1,000 yards where I shoot. For me, this is about 45.0 grains of Varget, which turned out to be an accurate load.
As Denys said, you are going to be at a disadvantage with a shorter barrel, but it is possible to get to 1,000 consistently with a shorty.
Using JBM ballistics, I was getting to Mach 1.18 at 1,000 yards. Sounds good enough, right? I could not hit a 6' X 6' target consistently. Finally, I saw a sideways bullet impact and realized I was not going fast enough. With a much stronger charge, I was able to get there. I needed to be going 2690 fps, which, according to JBM, gets me to about mach 1.22 at 1,000 yards where I shoot. For me, this is about 45.0 grains of Varget, which turned out to be an accurate load.
As Denys said, you are going to be at a disadvantage with a shorter barrel, but it is possible to get to 1,000 consistently with a shorty.
I know nothing about reloading (yet) as I am just getting into this. The only thing I can add to this thread is my limited experience thus far. I am able to get my stock (still in the Hogue overmold) .308 R700 AAC/SD (20" threaded barrel) with a Surefire SOCOM brake consistently on steel out to 1040 yds with factory FGMM 175's. Last time there was a 12-15mph wind from 3-4 and I had to hold 3 mils right but I kept bringing them in on target. Tight grouping? F-Class competitive? Can't tell you..spotter called all hits low center, so they were consistent. My best 600yd, 6 shot group on paper is 4 2/3".
There were guys with $3-4k rifles in 6.5 Creed and .338 Lapua with much longer barrels and hand loads who were having a harder time getting on from 800-1040 than I was. So I think it is more the trigger puller than the rifle, no matter the range, load, or conditions.
There were guys with $3-4k rifles in 6.5 Creed and .338 Lapua with much longer barrels and hand loads who were having a harder time getting on from 800-1040 than I was. So I think it is more the trigger puller than the rifle, no matter the range, load, or conditions.
Some pics of conditions from my last 1k yard practice shoot....intermittent View attachment 38526View attachment 38527View attachment 38528heavy rain/tstorms, gusty winds rolling through the valley, cows--yep, Moo...the 800, 900, 1040 & 1100 yard steel start at the base of the hill to the right of the Silo and continue up into the "notch" in the tree line at the base of the mountain. My 20" factory barrel performed admirably...
Sorry for the crappy Blackberry camera quality..
Sorry for the crappy Blackberry camera quality..
If your bullets were coming in sideways, you were nowhere near supersonic at 1000 yards, let alone Mach 1.18. Your bullets were probably going transonic at 800 yards or so to have time to get sideways by 1000 yards. I think your velocities are optimistic and Hodgdon shows an MV of 2660 with 180gr bullets, 45gr of Varget and a 24 inch barrel. My guess is that you are in the high 2500s with a 5gr heavier bullet and a shorter barrel. Always try to be very conservative in your calculations.
My 300 win mag has a 20" barrel. My GAP 10 has an 18 in barrel.... Both do 1000 all day
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Many miss the point. Hitting steal at 1000 yards is not the same as hitting a 5" circle at 1000 yards in the middle. No one has won a major F TR Match with barrel shorter than 26" in a very long time.
I agree... But mine are militaryish weapons that replicate those platforms I use in the military. Hot rocks in a person is better than none... so hitting steel will work.
My GAP 10 is consistanly a .3 MOA gun as is my 300wm... Ill tell you I can hit a 5 inch circle... Maybe not in the middle though
My GAP 10 is consistanly a .3 MOA gun as is my 300wm... Ill tell you I can hit a 5 inch circle... Maybe not in the middle though
I agree... But mine are militaryish weapons that replicate those platforms I use in the military. Hot rocks in a person is better than none... so hitting steel will work.
My GAP 10 is consistanly a .3 MOA gun as is my 300wm... Ill tell you I can hit a 5 inch circle... Maybe not in the middle though
This is the F-class forum, which is why we talk about hitting a 5 inch circle at 1000 yards, repeatedly, rather than hitting steel at any distance.
Since you shoot .3 MOA all day long at any distance, you should be able to win every F-class match you attend and earn a High Master card after the first two matches.
I agree... But mine are militaryish weapons that replicate those platforms I use in the military. Hot rocks in a person is better than none... so hitting steel will work.
My GAP 10 is consistanly a .3 MOA gun as is my 300wm... Ill tell you I can hit a 5 inch circle... Maybe not in the middle though
This is a sub-forum for F class shooting, no mulligans, and just like golf I've found that when the scores are kept they go up.
Can you do it 20 times in a row at 1000 yards?
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