100yard group?

[noahmercy]

Re: 100yard group?

Sorry if it came across like I was bashing on newer CZs, pard, because I surely wasn't. I was just speculating on why most replies on here (and on a couple other forums I visit) suggest accuracy with new 452s is not as good as what I experience from mine and groups are highly dependent on ammo. My CZ is outrageously accurate for the money and the least finicky rimfire I've handled. I was just wondering out loud (in print?) if maybe the later models have some differences that cause them to be more ammo dependent or less accurate. From your experience I'd say that's a negative, and I'm happy to hear it.

I actually suspect range conditions, bench technique, and the quality of optics plays a bigger part in what many folks are getting out of their CZs than the firearm or ammo (I put a scope on mine that cost twice what the rifle did, and I have never regretted it).

 

[gjantzer]

Re: 100yard group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Noah Mercy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I was just wondering out loud (in print?) if maybe the later models have some differences that cause them to be more ammo dependent or less accurate. From your experience I'd say that's a negative, and I'm happy to hear it.
</div></div>

This is a possible phenomenon......one i imagine will get worse now that the 452 is being replaced by the 455. The accuracy of new vs. old CZs that have both been dialed in seems to be equal.......from my years of experience. Most of the people that really share their experiences with their CZ have taken the time to find an ammo that it likes so we may never know for sure........

 

[OldmaninNeb]

Re: 100yard group?

I'll ditto that! gr8 post. Am just getting into .22 and .17 and these guys are impressive to say the least!

 

[gjantzer]

Re: 100yard group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: popgunz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll ditto that! gr8 post. Am just getting into .22 and .17 and these guys are impressive to say the least! </div></div>

yeah, most of the time you read about some of the shooters around here and get frustrated with yourself or your gun because you cannot match their results with the same gun.............and then one day you see a random guy at the range shooting groups twice your size with your same rifle and reality sets in: there are a lot of good shooters sharing info at snipers hide! Its nice that they take the time to help us get better......

 

[cab0154]

Re: 100yard group?

my worst cz was a 16" 452 american that shot between .2-.25 @ 25. i was never able to get that thing to shoot MOA @ 100y. it would hold about MOA @ 50y. it didnt seem to matter how much i spent on ammo. with good ammo (and sometimes federal 711b) my 452 varmint routinely shoots zeros to 1/8" @ 25y, low .3s @ 50y and sub MOA @ 100y. based on my data the equation is less than linear and some guns just shoot better that others.

 

[I Am Hero]

Re: 100yard group?

I just owned a factory Marlin 880SS and it shoots right around 1" at 100 yards with CCI ammo. I have been quite happy with the performance of this gun. It has over 1000 rounds through it now but still functions and looks like 50.

 

[RicosRevenge]

Re: 100yard group?

Hey Nesikabay... you still have that Cricket that held 1/2 MOA at 300? You know that one we shot "all day long" if "we did our part?"

Good lord... Camp Perry shooters suck compared to the studs in here!

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: 100yard group?

Well I sit here wanting to make a comment and I update the screen and low and behold Rico chimes in so now I have someone to blame if it goes south

Ever once in a while, like every 3 months to a year, this question is asked, or posed in some manner rather than a direct question. Every time, targets of all shapes and sizes pour forth in a flood of proof that any 22 can shoot consistent (what is consistent by the way?) sub MOA. Reading these pages the last few years, I don't know why any Rimfire BR shooter would ever buy an expensive custom built rifle. I have seen lots of sub MOA groups. I have seen twice as many plus MOA groups. I am a steel shooter but I also shoot groups, and am pretty good at measuring a group on steel, close enough for gubment work. I see a lot of sub MOA at 57yd not so much past 100 even on a calm day, and believe me we have dead calm days. I do not know what is to be gained by claiming a rifle shoots sub-moa. Declaring something does not magically make it so, no matter how much you want to believe. If your rifle cannot shoot sub MOA every time you pull the trigger with a reasonable sized sample, and AT LEAST 5 shot groups making up the sample, then I am sorry to tell you it is NOT a sub MOA rifle. Occasional fantastic groups are going to happen and there may be a few exceptional rifles out there in the mass produced market. As a rule a true MOA 22 rifle is a rare bird and rarer still is the true sub moa rifle. So unless everyone that has an exceptional rifle, has hunted down Sniper's HIde Rimfire Section as a place to hang out, then much of what you read here about "my gun does this and my gun does that, all day long" is patently....bullshit.
Now guys I am not knocking your gun or your shooting and I am not even saying your gun didn't shoot those groups. What I AM saying is this; those are some great groups, show me a couple hundred of them and we will have a decent sample. Some guys are just plain black liars, I have met some. They will fenagle and fix the test or simply shoot at 50 and call it 100. Not saying anyone here is doing that but it is the internet.
Come shoot our TSC course at Conover it will quickly weed out what is MOA and what is not all while using steel.

 

[TL Sr]

Re: 100yard group?

Armor I getting ready for March. Tim Jr is gettin married Saturday and I'll have my free time back. Been workin on my rifle,stock, scope, ammo setup and all I need now is some time on the range. I need to find my dope for 212 yards. Any chance we practice there?

 

[cab0154]

Re: 100yard group?

$12-15 a box match .22 ammo goes a long way to getting MOA at 100 if its a halfway decent rifle. cheap ammo usually wont get it done no matter how good the barrel. i know a lot of people who have good luck at 50+ yards with wolf MT, but i havent. my kidd barrel, my clark barrel or my best CZ i have to shoot lapua or high end eley to get the kind of consistency i need for decent groups at 100y. when it gets cold you can forget about consistent powder burn in most of these loads, and therefor accuracy. ive been trying to find some biathlon ammo to shoot now that its cold and havent had any luck thus far. IMO, if a rifle can shoot sub moa under normal circumstances with a known load, not just a specific lot number, thats good enough for me to consider it sub MOA.

 

[NYCEGUY01]

Re: 100yard group?

I have several good rimfires...
I have 1 Anschutz that I truly believe is a sub MOA gun.
I spent alot of time finding the ammo it likes and it is setup for just shooting groups on paper.

However....

The only way I would be able to provide a large amount of groups to show is if I locked it down in a vice and let the rifle shoot with no human contact etc....

While shooting it I have had a ton of amazing groups. Unfortunatly I have also had a ton I didnt take a pic of if you know what I mean...lol

Thats the reason I keep shooting week after week... It will always be a challenge, If it shot .5 groups at 100yds every time out why would I keep going out ?

If I could go buy an off the sheld CZ or Savage and shoot .5 groups all the time I would get very bored very fast...

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: 100yard group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: T L,Sr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Armor I getting ready for March. Tim Jr is gettin married Saturday and I'll have my free time back. Been workin on my rifle,stock, scope, ammo setup and all I need now is some time on the range. I need to find my dope for 212 yards. Any chance we practice there?

</div></div>

Hey Tim! We missed you guys last summer. Look forward to shooting with ya'll starting in March. We (Steve and I) may talk the club into an informal practice day before March, we will see. If all else fails I can host a few guys as guests any day I am off from work. There is no guarantee we will have the range to ourselves but the likelihood is high in late winter-early spring. I think you have my contact info, if not send me a pm. Just give me a holler after Christmas.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: 100yard group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cab0154</div><div class="ubbcode-body">$12-15 a box match .22 ammo goes a long way to getting MOA at 100 if its a halfway decent rifle. cheap ammo usually wont get it done no matter how good the barrel. i know a lot of people who have good luck at 50+ yards with wolf MT, but i havent. my kidd barrel, my clark barrel or my best CZ i have to shoot lapua or high end eley to get the kind of consistency i need for decent groups at 100y. when it gets cold you can forget about consistent powder burn in most of these loads, and therefor accuracy. ive been trying to find some biathlon ammo to shoot now that its cold and havent had any luck thus far. IMO, if a rifle can shoot sub moa under normal circumstances with a known load, not just a specific lot number, thats good enough for me to consider it sub MOA. </div></div>

Anyone looking for MOA in the cheap box is wasting their time, anyone claiming it is probably a liar. I agree about the ammo. I see your groups and that is impressive but what your gun does day in and day out in normal shooting is what defines your gun. A gun that shots a couple sessions of sub-MOA and then MOA+ for 5 or 6 sessions is not a sub-MOA gun. It is CAPABLE of sub-MOA but it cannot be defined by a couple groups as sub-MOA.
Another thing to note: 50yd results of sub MOA do not automatically make that gun sub-MOA at any range. I have witnessed the best ammo and lot number at 50yds be a dog at 100. I have also witnessed a consistent MOA+ ammo at 100 turn into sub-MOA at 210yds. I have seen this over and over and over with several brands of ammo and different manufacture of guns from Martinis to CZ to Anschutz. This is always a highly subjective arguement with everyone having their own axe to grind. I have owned a few rimfires in my time and lately I have owned and borrowed some really expensive rigs. I am still looking for that magical sub-MOA 22 rifle. If you have found it good for you but lets make sure we are talking about CONSISTENCY and not CAPABILITY.

 

[Cserv]

Re: 100yard group?

Armour, you are so right about some shooters calling 50yds 100. I've been at public ranges and heard guys shooting centerfirs call 50yds 100 to the other guys in there group, and brag about 3" groups..

 

[cab0154]

Re: 100yard group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cab0154</div><div class="ubbcode-body">$12-15 a box match .22 ammo goes a long way to getting MOA at 100 if its a halfway decent rifle. cheap ammo usually wont get it done no matter how good the barrel. i know a lot of people who have good luck at 50+ yards with wolf MT, but i havent. my kidd barrel, my clark barrel or my best CZ i have to shoot lapua or high end eley to get the kind of consistency i need for decent groups at 100y. when it gets cold you can forget about consistent powder burn in most of these loads, and therefor accuracy. ive been trying to find some biathlon ammo to shoot now that its cold and havent had any luck thus far. IMO, if a rifle can shoot sub moa under normal circumstances with a known load, not just a specific lot number, thats good enough for me to consider it sub MOA. </div></div>

Anyone looking for MOA in the cheap box is wasting their time, anyone claiming it is probably a liar. I agree about the ammo. I see your groups and that is impressive but what your gun does day in and day out in normal shooting is what defines your gun. A gun that shots a couple sessions of sub-MOA and then MOA+ for 5 or 6 sessions is not a sub-MOA gun. It is CAPABLE of sub-MOA but it cannot be defined by a couple groups as sub-MOA.
Another thing to note: 50yd results of sub MOA do not automatically make that gun sub-MOA at any range. I have witnessed the best ammo and lot number at 50yds be a dog at 100. I have also witnessed a consistent MOA+ ammo at 100 turn into sub-MOA at 210yds. I have seen this over and over and over with several brands of ammo and different manufacture of guns from Martinis to CZ to Anschutz. This is always a highly subjective arguement with everyone having their own axe to grind. I have owned a few rimfires in my time and lately I have owned and borrowed some really expensive rigs. I am still looking for that magical sub-MOA 22 rifle. If you have found it good for you but lets make sure we are talking about CONSISTENCY and not CAPABILITY. </div></div>

i normally shoot 25-50y with wolf. but when i put eley tenex or lapua through my cz at 100y in weather over 50* it sits a little under MOA in the wind. and will do it over and over with different lot numbers. its been doing it since i took it out of the box in '07. the 452 american i bought on the other hand wouldnt do it at 100y no matter what i did. both my 10/22s do it regularly with quality ammo, but they have kidd and clark barrels. clark actually guarantees MOA at 100y with wolf. the 10/22s actually do better than my 452 varmint. i know what you mean about MOA at 50 not automatically being MOA at 100. my cz shoots low .3s @ 50 with the same lapua it shoots mid .8s with at 100y. next time you are in the dallas area shoot me a PM or email and we can hit the range.

 

[gjantzer]

Re: 100yard group?



the 10/22s actually do better than my 452 varmint. my cz shoots low .3s @ 50 with the same lapua it shoots mid .8s with at 100y. [/quote]

Your 10/22s are consistently shooting sub .8s at 100 yards?

 

[cab0154]

Re: 100yard group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gjantzer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

the 10/22s actually do better than my 452 varmint. my cz shoots low .3s @ 50 with the same lapua it shoots mid .8s with at 100y. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your 10/22s are consistently shooting sub .8s at 100 yards? </div></div>

they usually average between .03-.05" better center to center than the cz. so the average of the 10/22s squeaks by the cz the couple of times ive put them all head to head with lapua on the same day at 100y. i like to shoot a string of four 5 round groups with each rifle.

since i built both 10/22s this summer and ive had the cz 5 years, i have a lot more trigger time behind the cz. it took me a good couple years to figure out the cz and get it to shoot like this consistently. with the 10/22s i pretty much assembled them and they shot well from round 1. one has a clark custom barrel and the other has a kidd barrel. both lothar walther blanks. clark actually guarantees MOA @ 100y with wolf MT/SK std+ on the rifles they assemble with their barrels.

http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/1022con.htm#guaranty

http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/7722con.htm#accguar

the cz is easier to shoot, but the lothar blank barrelled 10/22s are more consistent from group to group, and shoot cheaper ammo more consistently tight than my 452.

 

[RicosRevenge]

Re: 100yard group?

cab... we are fortunate to have a good resource for rimfire near us in Fort Worth. Check out ISS Shooting Supplies (www.iss-internationalshootersservice.com)

Neal Stepp is the owner. They have RWS R-50 on sale at about $11 a box ($120 after tax for a brick).

This is the only thing I shoot out of my 40X

 

[PanaDP]

Re: 100yard group?

I have a stock ruger 77/22 that will do around an inch at 100 yards without wind. It really goes to shit with even light wind though.

 

[cab0154]

Re: 100yard group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
cab... we are fortunate to have a good resource for rimfire near us in Fort Worth. Check out ISS Shooting Supplies (www.iss-internationalshootersservice.com)

Neal Stepp is the owner. They have RWS R-50 on sale at about $11 a box ($120 after tax for a brick).

This is the only thing I shoot out of my 40X
</div></div>

I know Neal and usually buy eley from him once or twice a year. ive been wanting to test some eley and rws through my 10/22s, i need to give him a call and see what he has in stock. When i first started buying from him i told him my CZ didnt normally shoot eley well. i told him how i keep the bore dirty and shoot 10-20 foulers before i start shooting for groups. his response: thats a lot of wasted ammo.

he told me to clean the bore and the eley would shoot as well as wolf/sk/lapua. he was right.this is a 100y group of some TEAM i got from him probably two years ago after doing what he suggested....

the group on the right was 100y of aguila match rifle that i was testing.

 

[Orlando]

Re: 100yard group?

100 yds
Front Rest, rear bag
Outside
Kimber 82 ,
Iron Sights
10rds Wolf Match Extra
1" group

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: 100yard group?

these guys walk the walk, some of the best groups i've ever seen, anywhere.

keep in mind, these are 25 round groups........

carter mayfield's, sept of 2011

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">NAME: Carter Mayfield
Class: (S)
RIFLE: 40 Xcalibur
CALIBER: .22LR
AMMO: RWS R50
MATCH: 100YP-TQ4
SCORE: 250 - 24X

</div></div>

and the supreme group by Nesikabay (indoors) also done in sept 2011

CLASS: scope MARCH 10x60
GUN: Custom 40x
CALIBER; 22
AMMO: ELEY
100 YARDS (indoors)
SCORE 250x25


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is Nesikabay's target for those who want to know what a 100 yard 25X looks like.

As his signature says, "You will lose."</div></div>

 

[Trevor300wsm]

Re: 100yard group?

Damn, that is some amazing shooting for a rimfire.

Reading in this section has got my rimfire itch going. After looking at alot of these groups, I took my .17HMR out and shot it at 100yds. Had a bipod and a rear bag. Shooting the Hornady Vmax it was ~ 1"-1.5" at 100yds. Then I got out my .22 mag and it was about the same. I have several other .22's that I havent played with in a while. I also looked at the Savage TR models, but that's alot for a rimfire.

I'm sure I'll be spending more money now......

 

[towert7]

Re: 100yard group?

Hey guys. Glad to see this thread is still doing good!

Changed scopes on my little 22LR target rifle. I cheaped out and downgraded to a little Bushnell 10x fixed tactical elite scope. Optically it's not as nice as the nightforce, leupold, or nikon I had, but it's still perfectly acceptable and very good for target shooting. It's a heck of a lot better than the cheap SS scopes I tried (10x, 16x). For 217$us I love it.

Went to the range today and zeroed it in. Low 50's today, in MA in January. Love this warm weather.

Once I got it zeroed, and started to bare down on it using the bipod off the bench supporting the rear I got 100yard 4shot avg group sizes of about 1.262, 1.119, and 0.5955 inches using federal bulk 22LR ammo.

I was thrilled with the 0.5955 inch 4 shot group!! That works out to approx 0.569 MOA.

Next time I get to the range I hope I can reproduce the 1MOA consistently.

On each target I actually did a 5 shot group, but one of the shots on each target is WAY off! I don't know if I pulled it or if something else was to blame (wind, ammo ?). I just don't know! I'll be watching for this next time.

 

[towert7]

Re: 100yard group?

went to the range again today. wind gusts were stronger than yesterday, but I tried my best to shoot when it was calm. I don't think I had much luck.
Today I couldn't even come close to matching my results from yesterday. Tried 5 targets with 5 shots each. group sizes came in at 2.9, 1.9, 1.5, 2.8, and 3.5 inches.

I'm going to have to go back on a calm day and try.

 

[isaaccarlson]

Re: 100yard group?

have you tried subsonic ammo? I would give Federal 711b a try. You might be surprised. Your bulk pack ammo is going transonic.

 

[Aquatic_Robotic]

Re: 100yard group?

Tower,

Please take this as constructive criticism. I have done the same thing you are doing now, lots of times. If you want to improve your skill set, you need to see it for what it is.

Again, ths is IMHO, other may or may not agree.

You doing some good shooting, but you need to include that 5th shot in your group sizes or your just fooling yourself. If the "ODD 5th shot" was a cold bore shoot that occured everytime, I understand that and that would give you excellent information. If you are firing a 5 shot string with no cold bore shot, then include all 5 shots, whether you like the results or not.

You are getting some good information here, you just need to use it properly. Is it the same shot that "flies" out of the group each time?

ie. shot # 1 or # 3?

Is it totally random in the string, ie. the flyer occurs on any of the 5 shots in the string?

First I suggest finding the ammo your specific rifle likes best at that 100 yard distance.

Second, once the ammo/rifle combo is determined, I would make sure you have repeatable target acquisition. In other words be sure your rifle fits you and the sight picture alignment is correct and very importantly, you can repeat it each and every time you get behind the rifle. If not, change what needs to be changed. Raise/lower cheek pad, raise/lower scope mount, adjust length of pull, adjust trigger pull, adjust bipod, etc. What ever is adjustable on your rig, make it "FIT YOU".

Third practice, practice, practice!!

I have been in your position and was very glad that people with much more experience, skill, and knowledge took time to help me advance my skill set at a faster pace. I still have a long way to go but I am getting there at a quicker pace with the help I got here.

Good Shooting

AR

 

[BBsteel]

Re: 100yard group?

I know I've posted this before. Here's an honest 20 round group at 100 yards with Wolf Match out of my Savage MKII TR.

I have shot .75" 5 shot groups but prefer to shoot more with this gun as I see this typical variation from 5 shot to 5 shot group.

 

[ivanthesane]

Re: 100yard group?

So I was out today, and did well at 50 ... so I tried at 100. After getting my elevation in (30 clicks up) I worked on a group... and got (what I feel) very lucky.

Savage Mk II BTV 22lr
Remington Sub Sonic HP (38grn @ ~1050)
Simmons ProHunter 4-12x50 w/ AO scope
Bag up front
Shoulder and left hand/fist in back

According to some software,

100 yd w/o flier -
CTC .231 MOA
CTC .242 "
Width .230
Height .076

w/ flier -
CTC moa .506
CTC .530"
width .378"
height .448"

 

[bulzeye]

Re: 100yard group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: trevor300wsm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Damn, that is some amazing shooting for a rimfire.

Reading in this section has got my rimfire itch going. After looking at alot of these groups, I took my .17HMR out and shot it at 100yds. Had a bipod and a rear bag. Shooting the Hornady Vmax it was ~ 1"-1.5" at 100yds. Then I got out my .22 mag and it was about the same. I have several other .22's that I havent played with in a while. I also looked at the Savage TR models, but that's alot for a rimfire.

I'm sure I'll be spending more money now...... </div></div>

Dick's runs specials on a Mark II with heavy barrel and shitty stock quite often. then just pick up a tacticool stock for $89. i think the only thing you lose from the TR is the shallow fluting and tactical bolt knob. and save a decent amount of money

 

[cmh2007]

Re: 100yard group?

using my 10/22 with aguilla gold eagle match on a windy day this is what i got wind was 15mph from 10o'clock group was shot off a bypod with a rear bag

 

[towert7]

Re: 100yard group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aquatic_Robotic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tower,

Please take this as constructive criticism. I have done the same thing you are doing now, lots of times. If you want to improve your skill set, you need to see it for what it is.

Again, ths is IMHO, other may or may not agree.

You doing some good shooting, but you need to include that 5th shot in your group sizes or your just fooling yourself. If the "ODD 5th shot" was a cold bore shoot that occured everytime, I understand that and that would give you excellent information. If you are firing a 5 shot string with no cold bore shot, then include all 5 shots, whether you like the results or not.

You are getting some good information here, you just need to use it properly. Is it the same shot that "flies" out of the group each time?

ie. shot # 1 or # 3?

Is it totally random in the string, ie. the flyer occurs on any of the 5 shots in the string?

First I suggest finding the ammo your specific rifle likes best at that 100 yard distance.

Second, once the ammo/rifle combo is determined, I would make sure you have repeatable target acquisition. In other words be sure your rifle fits you and the sight picture alignment is correct and very importantly, you can repeat it each and every time you get behind the rifle. If not, change what needs to be changed. Raise/lower cheek pad, raise/lower scope mount, adjust length of pull, adjust trigger pull, adjust bipod, etc. What ever is adjustable on your rig, make it "FIT YOU".

Third practice, practice, practice!!

I have been in your position and was very glad that people with much more experience, skill, and knowledge took time to help me advance my skill set at a faster pace. I still have a long way to go but I am getting there at a quicker pace with the help I got here.

Good Shooting

AR</div></div>

Thanks AR. Very helpful info, I really appreciate it.
I'm going to have to keep a little log book of my gun settings / hit locations.

Thankfully my rifle and scope are setup so that I get pretty consistent sight pictures. When I put my face where it feels comfortable on the stock and open my eyes, I'm looking right through the scope at the proper eye relief.

I think I'm going to wait for a calm day and try the bulk federal again before purchasing any more ammo.

 

[kheuertz]

Re: 100yard group?

With a stock Savage Mark II TR on Harris bi-pod shooting Remington Sub-Sonic bulk....about .5

even surprised me!

 

[clayne_b]

Re: 100yard group?

6 shots 100 yards, fed bulk from walmart probably only 200 rounds threw this gun.

 

[Rthur]

Re: 100yard group?

This group was shot with a savage 17hmr @ 100 yards. The ammo was 17gr ballistic tip fed. Bipod with rear bag prone. The picture sucks but it was a 22x 250. Dumped 2 on breathing and one on the trigger.

 

[Hammer47]

Re: 100yard group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RicosRevenge</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey Nesikabay... you still have that Cricket that held 1/2 MOA at 300? You know that one we shot "all day long" if "we did our part?"

Good lord... Camp Perry shooters suck compared to the studs in here! </div></div>

I really like the Camp Perry reference.

Don't know what the big deal at 100 yards is all about. I shoot 10 shots and get 10 one hole groups..........

 

[clayne_b]

Re: 100yard group?

where did the other 9 go?

 

[towert7]

Re: 100yard group?

Picked up a few different types of 22LR ammo and am going to compare it to the federal bulk:
RWS target 40gr, CCI 32gr stinger, Federal premium HV match 40gr, american eagle 38gr, and cci mini mag 36gr HP and 40gr round nose.

Now I'm just waiting for a warmer day with calm winds.

 

[kheuertz]

Re: 100yard group?

With my stock Savage Mark II TR off bipod & rear bag, winds NW 13-15 mph at the 100 yard range...still seeing what it likes but this is Wolf Target Match...JaxOps

 

[towert7]

Re: 100yard group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TOP PREDATOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

doing those two should bring you into a 1.5"ish area out of the gate. the CZ452 is a pretty darn good rifle, but may be as good as it's going to get with that sporter barrel, on average.

although it's nice to strive for, i wouldn't expect under or at 1" at 100 yards with average equipment <span style="font-weight: bold">consistantly</span>, as you'll probably frustrate the heck out of yourself. in reality 1.25" to 2" would probably be viewed as good group using average / stock equipment, whereas the 40x / anschutz thoroughbreds should be at least 1.25" and under, <span style="font-weight: bold">consistantly</span>.
</div></div>

I've done some work to the rifle since I originally posed the question. Changed out the trigger spring and did some other work to remove creep. Now the trigger breaks around 1/2 lbs with no creep. I also made the cheek piece adjustable to put my eye in line with the scope.

I went to the range this morning, shooting at 91m (100yrd). It was off the bipod with a DIY rear sand bag on the ground. Target 1 was shot with almost no wind. Around Target 2 the winds started to gust a little.

Target 1:

Target 2:

Using Federal Gold Medal HV Match (#719) I got some nice 5 shot groupings (one group is 4 shots).
4 out of 12 were sub MOA. I shot:
1.5", 0.94", 2.17", 0.73", 1.12", 0.748", 2.13", 1.28", 0.67", 1.06", 1.46", and 1.57".

I'm glad to find out I can average almost MOA, with 33% being sub MOA with the CZ452 thin barrel at 100yards.

Now I have a setup where I can focus on improving my consistency. It is going to be a fun summer!
Thank you very much for all the help!

 

[rebelsniper]

Re: 100yard group?

my stock ruger 10/22 is shooting 1 mocp(min of clay pidgen) at 100 yards. which is awesome for me since i am shooting the cheap remington brick ammo. but that is about to change as i have a houge stock and a tatical solution barrel coming in. next thing im adding is a new trigger

 

[Larry in SD]

Re: 100yard group?

A few years back I built a Custom Ruger 77/22, Clark Custom Guns 20" Bull Barrel, VOlquartsen Laminated Stock, Trigger work etc. I set it up with a Weaver V-16 4x16x42mm AO with a Fine Crosshair / Dot Reticle. In preperation for our annual Egg Shoot at 100 yards I went to the range a few days ahead of time to sight in at 100 yards and check ammo.

I was shooting Wolf Match Target and SK Jagd Standard Plus. I shot 5 5 shot groups with each ammo that day with the smallest being right at .7" center to center and the largest being 1.32" center to center with the Wolf Match Target turning in slightly better groups than the SK Jagd Standard Plus. The overall average was 1.09" for that day. Will that rifle do that every day, I highly doubt it as that was a rare day here in South Dakota with NO WIND. A week later at our Egg Shoot I couldn't seem to hit a Chicken Egg at 100 yards to save my soul.

More recently I built a Custom Ruger Charger Handgun. It has a Tactical Innovations Rebel Laminated Stock, Kidd 10" Bull Barrel, Trigger rework by TT Shooter and all the Bolt Work done to it. This Charger wears a Burris 3x12x LER Handgun Scope with Target Turrets and a Fine Plex Reticle. I went to the range one day just to see what it would do at 100 yards. I was shooting Wolf Match Target and SK Jagd Standard velocity Hollow Points. In shooting 4 5 shot groups at 100 yards with each type of ammo the smallest group of the day was right at 1.35" and the largest group of the day was right at 2". Funny thing was it shot the best groups with SK Jagd Standard Velocity Hollow Points.

Larry

 

[persistant7500]

Re: 100yard group?

if you really want a good idea of what you and your equipment can do, try 60 shots at 50 meters. prone with sling and coat, then stack your six targets on top of each other and see what your really doing.

 

[FAL1123]

Re: 100yard group?

Shot these at 120 yards in heavy wind. Was using wolf mt and the factory stock on my savage fv. Got a tacticool stock and some ammo in the mail this week. Hopefully will be sub MOA next time out.

 

[bobtodrick]

Re: 100yard group?

I find threads like this so difficult to asses by the newbie.
Tower starts off saying it's off a bi-pod, bulk ammo and a stock sporter. I'd say it's relatively safe to assume that he's not an old hand at 100yd bench shooting.
2.6" ain't great...but it doesn't suck considering the stated parameters.
I just wish that all those who jump in with the 'hey somethings wrong if it don't shoot .5MOA...all day long' would:
-list their experience (how long have they been shooting)
-show some photos proving their claims...not just one photo but a string, all on the same sheet of 5 or so groupings...just to prove they can do it...all day long.
-a photo of their shooting rig.
I had the experience recently of a hotshot telling everyone at a bull session how he could shoot 1/2 min groups all the live long day, and how any decent shooter should be able to.
A week or so later I saw him at the range with a customized CZ Varminter in a lead-sled, shooting just under an inch.
"Oh, I'm just having a bad day", he says.
Yeah...right!!

 

[justin amateur]

Re: 100yard group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">-list their experience (how long have they been shooting)
-show some photos proving their claims...not just one photo but a string, all on the same sheet of 5 or so groupings...just to prove they can do it...all day long.
-a photo of their shooting rig.</div></div>

I like them rules and am willing to play along.

30 plus years chasing tree rats with a Marlin 60
Messing with a CZ 455 American since August 2011
Lilja starts selling the match grade 22lr barrel for the 455 in February
Purchased and installed a Lilja in March, testing through April.

Pillared, shimmed receiver and barrel, factory trigger, Mueller 8-32x44, Harris bipod.

From a bench, heavy rear bag, holding the left leg of the bipod to stabilize.
Results...

You don't want to see the results when there's any kind of breeze.
I can't judge windage to save my life...

 

[bobtodrick]

Re: 100yard group?

Excellent shooting jaia.
And in my opinion this kind of post is helpful to a newbie, or someone who's having problems.
You've shown that with skill, a good setup and lots of practice 1MOA or better is achievable.
I just have issues with people who respond to a request like Towers and make it sound like any old dufus with a Cooey should be shooting 1/2MOA in a sandstorm

 

[TonyAngel]

Re: 100yard group?

Towert, I first want to commend you on your post because you actually told us what your real typical experience was. It was a while back, but there was a time that I was in the same place that you are, scratching my head wondering what was wrong. I mean, shooting .308 at 100 meant 1/2MOA groups or better, but with .22, I was tearing my hair out.

I've seen MANY threads such as this one wherein people make claims of their Marlin 60, or Savage bolt action or whatever, shooting sub MOA at 100 yards with bulk ammunition, "all day long."

I am not the greatest shooter, but I do pretty well. I'm shooting two .22s right now. The first is a Kidded out 10/22 and the other is a Remington 40X, with Shilen barrel, Jewell trigger, some flavor of tuner (I don't remember which) and a McMillan stock. The guys that I shoot my weekly match with shoot the likes of Anschutz 54s, Time Precision, Hall, Turbo and such. Some even shoot other 10/22s and Savages. We all run Wolf MT for the match (it's a rule of the match).

My experience tells me that all of the guys claiming that their rifle will shoot sub MOA at 100 yards on average, much less "all day long," using Wolf or some other bulk ammo, are full of crap.

I'm not saying that they won't do it once in a while, or even quite often with a good rifle, but I really doubt that it can be done with any consistency. Now, if you're going to do it indoors, it might be possible, but I highly doubt that it will happen in the outdoors. If you consider that a steady 10mph wind will drift a .22 1" at fifty yards, I'm still trying to figure out what to do with a gust that is impossible to read and takes as much luck as skill to compensate for. If you stretch the distance to 100 yards, troubles don't just double, they increase exponentially. I mean, with a 50 yard zero, I have to dial in 8 minutes of elevation to get to 100 yards, so the distance the bullet has to travel is more than twice the distance and it's slowing down as it travels, so the BC is dropping and the wind has even more of an effect on the bullet.

Again, this is just my experience, but if you have some flavor of run of the mill bolt gun, say a Savage, Marlin or CZ and you can average say 2" or less at 100 yards with affordable ammunition, in a real world environment, I'd say that you are doing really well. If you are shooting something on the higher end, like maybe a 40X or Anschutz 54, and you can get to an inch or inch and a half on average, you're doing really well.

Just to give you an idea of what is considered to be good, I also shoot a 100 yard F Class rimfire match, which is shot prone, and the "X" ring on the targets we use is 2" in diameter. The point is that it ain't that easy to do. During the last match that we shot, the wind was gusting between 10 and 15 mph. It was killing me. I only managed 15X's out of a possible 30 for the last stage.

My point is, don't get discouraged. You have to take a lot of what's on the internet with a grain of salt. Besides, the only one that you really need to worry about beating is yourself. If you shoot and improve, you're ahead of the game.

On a final note, a friend of mine, who was at one time, a world class long distance centerfire shooter, once told me that shooting rimfire with any measure of accuracy AND consistency was the hardest thing he's ever done. Rimfire is also one of those few fields of shooting where a very good shooter can often be beat by a mediocre shooter for no reason other than equipment.

Just keep having fun and don't worry about it. If you get to a point where the accuracy you are getting is pretty consistent and has reached a plateau, you can try two things. The first is try better ammunition, although I haven't found anything better than Wolf MT for the price or less, there is better if you spend more. You can look to the upper line Eley and Lapua products. This may or may not get you better results. The second thing that you could do is get a better rifle. If you want to keep things reasonable, you could do a lot worse than a 54 action Anschutz.

 

[TonyAngel]

Re: 100yard group?

jaia, that was some good shootin. Lilja, huh? I may have to give them another look.

 

[bobtodrick]

Re: 100yard group?

tonyangle...this should be required reading for all newbies.
I too fell prey to the internet top shots for quite a while...always wondering why my gun wasn't shooting, why I couldn't find the right ammo, etc.
Then I started really being aware of what others were doing at the range and realizing that not than many sub 1moa groups were happening, and that a lot of people who seemed to be quite knowledgeable were happy with groups that seemingly would be laughed at by a lot of internet posters.
And then one day I was at the range when our local police dept had it booked for sniper practice. One of these guys turned out to be the Canadian who held the longest sniper shot in Afghanistan for the last 10 years or so (Rob Furlong).
Darned if he wasn't consistently shooting 1" groups...some even...horrors...an inch and a quarter.
Nope...not 1/2", or 3/8" or what ever all these people claim to do all day long...but an inch. (okay, he had a couple that were smaller, but no more than 1/2).
For the life of me I can't figure out why these claims are made. We want the sport to grow...but convincing a newcomer that he either sucks or has crappy equipment is just counterproductive to the growth of the sport.
The 'net has so many pluses...but a couple of huge negative.