14th Navy CO relieved this year.. What the heck ?

#2
Re: 14th Navy CO relieved this year.. What the heck ?

I was told that about 2/3rds of the commanders/captains/etc getting the boot are due to inappropriate sexual contact. No big surprise as its institutionalized at the Navy. At least they're making some changes.
 
#3
Re: 14th Navy CO relieved this year.. What the heck ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mt Al</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No big surprise as its institutionalized at the Navy.</div></div>

I always love it when people spout off regarding things of which they know nothing.

Josh
 
#4
Re: 14th Navy CO relieved this year.. What the heck ?

We've had a couple of CO's relieved around here for sexual relations, job performance etc.

I think there's some political motivation in some of it, the others are just people being stupid.
 
#5
Re: 14th Navy CO relieved this year.. What the heck ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mt Al</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> No big surprise as its institutionalized at the Navy. </div></div>

2czagyb.jpg
 
#6
Re: 14th Navy CO relieved this year.. What the heck ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mt Al</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No big surprise as its institutionalized at the Navy.</div></div>
I always love it when people spout off regarding things of which they know nothing.

Josh </div></div>

Actually he is sorta correct.

There's a HUGE push here locally to get women on the Trident subs so there is an absoluite ZERO tolerance on this stuff.

They have removed many CO's and XO's around here in the past year or two. Many of them for comments, some for bad relations, and then job performance (That's the catch-all we don't want to go publi and embarrass ourselves).
 
#7
Re: 14th Navy CO relieved this year.. What the heck ?

ArcticLight,

What I took him to mean is that sexual misconduct is made to be the norm amongst officers and the Navy as a whole. That is patently false. Women want the same opportunities as men when it comes to the armed forces. While I do not make the rules on what jobs they get to fill, I can say that it is never an excuse for misconduct nor should it be assumed that the Navy ever turns a blind eye to that behavior.

If anything, the Navy is cracking down on commanders that commit your aforementioned offenses. Face it. Each service has its own problems with commanders. The people making the actual decisions to put them in those positions are making their choice off paper (Fitreps). If the prior COs and XOs did not notice anything amiss and instead saw a fine officer, then they have a good chance of getting promoted.

Lastly, I had an XO get relieved while on my first deployment. On paper he was great. He just made some bad decisions that led to his end. Am I glad they caught him? Yes. Were there any warning signs based on his past performance in the Navy? Apparently not.

As a note - women are already ok'd for Trident subs. They took their first females last year and should be through the pipeline soon.
 
#8
Re: 14th Navy CO relieved this year.. What the heck ?

Actually, a military branch with a "no exceptions" attitude toward misconduct or leadership failures is a healthier warfighting machine than a tolerant system rife with cronyism. Tom Ricks writes a regular column on ForeignPolicy.com that often laments how slow the military can be in removing ineffective leaders (linked from his column to NY Times op-ed): [url="http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/24/opinion/24ricks.html"]http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/24/opinion/24ricks.html[/url] . Frankly, when people's lives are at stake, there should not be any leniency for misconduct or incompetence. Members of the military deserve the very best from their commanders, since they are all willing to pay the highest price to serve our nation.

Failing to remove bad leaders has enormous consequences within a branch of service as well. When clemency is given to high level officers and enlisted leaders while denied to the rank-and-file, morale understandably plummets. I'd bet every veteran on this site, myself included, can give at least one example when they saw a leader receive a slap on the wrist when the same indiscretion would have brought on UCMJ action on a lower enlisted person.

Tim Kane wrote a superb article in The Atlantic earlier this year that highlights the problem of retaining excellent officers within a broken promotion system, especially one that supposedly merit-based. Here's a link to it [url="http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/01/why-our-best-officers-are-leaving/8346/"]http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/01/why-our-best-officers-are-leaving/8346/.[/url] , and it's a very good read.

Finally, Tom Ricks posted a response sent to him by current officers in an effort to demonstrate the counterargument that the system is indeed working: [url="http://ricks.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/03/23/no_our_best_officers_are_not_running_off_4_officers_respond_to_that_atlantic_articl"]http://ricks.foreignpolicy.com/posts/201...atlantic_articl[/url] . The officers obviously have a vested interest in defending their own ranks, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't hear their side. Despite broken promotion systems, there are still incredibly smart, capable officers throughout the US military. I know because I work with a number of them every day.

While the issue is certainly complex, a military service's willingness to uphold standards of conduct, leadership, and intelligence is a sign of strength in the organization, despite the frailty of the people within the system. Having worked closely with all the branches, the Marines do the best job in retaining excellent officers, though their smaller numbers give them a distinct advantage in culling the officer herd to retain only the best leaders.
 
#10
Re: 14th Navy CO relieved this year.. What the heck ?

MinorDamage and Bubba - AGree with you...

Just saying it's happening and because women are going on subs soon, they are cracking down on it HARDER to make a point.

Tha'ts just speculation on my part but I live within 6 miles of 3 navy bases and have seen CO's flying out like a Jet Li tournament...

It should be like on Battlestar Galactica, women and men sharing the same showers, no problems....
 
#11
Re: 14th Navy CO relieved this year.. What the heck ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As a note - women are already ok'd for Trident subs. They took their first females last year and should be through the pipeline soon. </div></div>

I had a private conversation with a new Commander on one of Tridents out here, and all I can say is I'm still in disagreement with the decision. If they want equal rights then fine, let them hot bunk, share showers, etc. Renovating the subs to accommodate special quarters is BS and takes up valuable space. Equal rights does not mean special treatment.
 
#13
Re: 14th Navy CO relieved this year.. What the heck ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As a note - women are already ok'd for Trident subs. They took their first females last year and should be through the pipeline soon. </div></div>

If they want equal rights then fine, let them hot bunk, share showers, etc. Renovating the subs to accommodate special quarters is BS and takes up valuable space. Equal rights does not mean special treatment.
</div></div>

What is the Navy gaining by adding women to the Trident fleet?????? How much money is this costing to rehab a ship that has no known issues that are being rehabbed????

The "leaders" that made this decision are "poor" and need to be removed. Spending money to appease political pressure is part of waste, fraud, and abuse, but since I take this stance, I must be a sexist. I'm not, I just hate seeing money wasted on crap when there are plenty of other things that need money. BTW, when the Navy stops moving people on orders in May because there is no money in the budget, I have a problem with refitting a sub.

Why not just make the new sub that will be coming out later in a fashion that will support both sexes.
 
#14
Re: 14th Navy CO relieved this year.. What the heck ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As a note - women are already ok'd for Trident subs. They took their first females last year and should be through the pipeline soon. </div></div>

I had a private conversation with a new Commander on one of Tridents out here, and all I can say is I'm still in disagreement with the decision. If they want equal rights then fine, let them hot bunk, share showers, etc. Renovating the subs to accommodate special quarters is BS and takes up valuable space. Equal rights does not mean special treatment.


</div></div>

Four star admirals, members of cabinet, and congress make those decisions. Just like anything else, not everyone agrees with it, but everyone deals with it. That said, you will see very good and very bad service members of either sex.

The mods to the Tridents were not extensive. As I recall, they are putting two women a piece (officers) in one stateroom that was usually occupied by males. That takes up those two billets, so no one is actually displaced. Secondly, the heads were not modified. They just put a sign on the door that must be flipped to notify anyone that it is in use by females.

In full disclosure, I am a SWO and instruct at the Naval Academy. I have seen bad officers and good officers during sea and shore tours. While it sucks to lose anyone in a leadership position as far as the crews are concerned, the Navy is sticking to the letter of the law and making examples of people. You are held to a higher standard and not everyone steps up. I would rather they fire them when they do something egregious instead of letting it slide and hoping they become someone else's problem.

Josh
 
#15
Re: 14th Navy CO relieved this year.. What the heck ?

What's to be gained by rehabbing the nukes is continued revenue stream to contractors. Last I heard any new subs are going to have quite a fight for approval and if approved will not be built in large numbers.

Those 4 destroyer/cruiser/littoral command ships being 'built' in Maine and Miss over the last decade- they ever get finished?

Thinning the Officer herd isn't a bad idea. The Services are top heavy. The excuse is the need for more commanders if the Service has to be rapidly expanded, but the inability to rapidly expand has already put lie to the utility of keeping those officers on active duty.

So those O types go to study committees or desk commands that give rise to the stories of how many officers it takes to approve adding another patrol dog to duty in Afganistan.

In an age where computers are reducing the size of the enlisted crews aboard ships the shore side staffs are growing to record size.

Now back to women on boats and a separate bunk/shower facility for them- seems to me without the separation some squids would spend the entire tour in the shower!

Admirals don't mingle with the average taxpayer, they mingle with the average tax spender who is now on hard times. Since the demise of the Cold War times have been tough on naval ship builders. They have done just about all the other conversions they could on subs. Some of the older Los Angles attack subs have been converted to SEAL support missions, others to launch cruise missles in support of land operations but there is only so much flex in a submarines designed to attack soviet subs.

The new Virginia subs are going to be produced at one a year for no other reason than to keep sub builders in business. Cost per sub range from 1.8 to 2 billion per copy. That may keep Newport News and Electric Boat in business but for hundreds of other smaller companies there maynot be enough work to go around.

Get them on subs gluing Women signs on head doors and installing matchbox sized showers or they will have to compete in the private sector for jobs that are overwatched like an Alabama chain gang!
 
#16
Re: 14th Navy CO relieved this year.. What the heck ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: notquiteright</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The new Virginia subs are going to be produced at one a year for no other reason than to keep sub builders in business.</div></div>

One of the things my masters professors always talked about was the knowledge base that the military tries to maintain. If you stop building completely you lose the expertise and efficiencies and run into massive cost overruns when attempting to restart production. You also see this with the new LCS and DDG-1000. It is the best argument for continuing to build Arleigh Burke Destroyers. The original A. Burke cost around 1.2 billion whereas my first ship was the 48th in the series and cost 980 million.

Josh
 
#17
Re: 14th Navy CO relieved this year.. What the heck ?

And the Burkes were selected for continuation over a wide variety of far more expensive ships. One reason you didn't mention for continuing the Burkes is the fleet is getting old. The Reagan build-up is getting old and many ships rushed into production were found to be very expensive, costly to maintain and limited versatility. Spruance class comes to mind.

The damn the cost mentality hurt overseas sales and spurred other nation's to develop efficient ships.

The decision to 'fight' the cold war as spending war left us with a massive short term fleet that depressed the domestic shipbuilding base and only strong 'friends' in Congress kept any spending alive.

Maintaining a knowledge base has been used before, like the F15.

My thought is until China has 10 ultra modern Boomers we have more than enough navy to defend freedom. Maybe there will be a day when we need to replace carriers to project our power, but the cold war is over and we are still focussed on the past threat rather than the new one.

Personally as international as most corporations are, the knowledge base is global and can be transplanted, not unlike the German interwar years inwhich they explored tanks, dive bombers, and mobile warfare in other countries.

But thats not super macho and to think the US might have to take a chest pounding breather is enough to send some into a tizzle.
 
#18
Re: 14th Navy CO relieved this year.. What the heck ?

Won't matter when next's years budget comes out, you can bet we're going to see a clinton-era downgrade - not being political just stating facts that they are already putting some of these projects on the chopping block.

I have no real problem with women on s ubs SO LONG AS they hold them to the same standard for acquiring their dolphins, NO SLEEP for an entire patrol while they study and do nothing else but their job.

The guys that have dolphins have my respect, THEY EARNED THEM.


If women do that, great.
 
#19
Re: 14th Navy CO relieved this year.. What the heck ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As a note - women are already ok'd for Trident subs. They took their first females last year and should be through the pipeline soon. </div></div>

I had a private conversation with a new Commander on one of Tridents out here, and all I can say is I'm still in disagreement with the decision. If they want equal rights then fine, let them hot bunk, share showers, etc. Renovating the subs to accommodate special quarters is BS and takes up valuable space. Equal rights does not mean special treatment.


</div></div>

Four star admirals, members of cabinet, and congress make those decisions. Just like anything else, not everyone agrees with it, but everyone deals with it. That said, you will see very good and very bad service members of either sex.

The mods to the Tridents were not extensive. As I recall, they are putting two women a piece (officers) in one stateroom that was usually occupied by males. That takes up those two billets, so no one is actually displaced. Secondly, the heads were not modified. They just put a sign on the door that must be flipped to notify anyone that it is in use by females.

In full disclosure, I am a SWO and instruct at the Naval Academy. I have seen bad officers and good officers during sea and shore tours. While it sucks to lose anyone in a leadership position as far as the crews are concerned, the Navy is sticking to the letter of the law and making examples of people. You are held to a higher standard and not everyone steps up. I would rather they fire them when they do something egregious instead of letting it slide and hoping they become someone else's problem.

Josh </div></div>

I don't know first hand the extent of modifications and was simply going on what I heard from the Commander.

For the record to everyone I am not questioning the ability or quality of females aboard subs, but I am questioning a push for equality that ends up equating to special rights.
 
#20
Re: 14th Navy CO relieved this year.. What the heck ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For the record to everyone I am not questioning the ability or quality of females aboard subs, but I am questioning a push for equality that ends up equating to special rights. </div></div>

We're on the same page.

Josh
 
#21
Re: 14th Navy CO relieved this year.. What the heck ?

Not to side track everything, but the military as a whole is incredibly top heavy right now. I hardly see fellow AMN or A1C's anymore. Hell, even in my shop, there is 5 MSGT's per airman...
 
#23
Re: 14th Navy CO relieved this year.. What the heck ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Doug.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well that is the quickest way to give money back to the taxpayer. Cut 30k enlisted members... put them out. </div></div>

The moment I read a speech from SECDEF Gates about the greatest armies in history having less generals per enlisted then I knew the liquid shits were coming down the hill, mudslide fast.

It might as well be a corporation from the way they're handling the job cuts(No other way I can call it).

It was almost dog eat dog when I left.
 
#24
Re: 14th Navy CO relieved this year.. What the heck ?

It is about to get really bad in the Army and the Marines just changed the way they did re-enlistments to start cutting as well. I understand that we are winding down from 10 years of combat ops...

The military is about to be cut to the bone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmaHeavy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Doug.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well that is the quickest way to give money back to the taxpayer. Cut 30k enlisted members... put them out. </div></div>

The moment I read a speech from SECDEF Gates about the greatest armies in history having less generals per enlisted then I knew the liquid shits were coming down the hill, mudslide fast.

It might as well be a corporation from the way they're handling the job cuts(No other way I can call it).

It was almost dog eat dog when I left. </div></div>
 
#25
Re: 14th Navy CO relieved this year.. What the heck ?

Artic-
The cries of President Clinton's military cuts were silly back then and have not gained sweetness with age. It was BushI who spoke of a peace dividend and started the RIF ball rolling. IF BushI had been re-elected his proposed military cuts would have been deeper.

Those who feel the military is going to be 'cut to the bone' need to see just how little bone there is in our current outlay. You should look up just how many bases we keep around the world and the personnel tied up manning them. Think about all the contractors supporting these bases.

The military is very top heavy but in this aftermath of free market binging I don't see cutting those who serve as a good plan. Seems like a unwarranted slap in the face for those who decided service to country is more than a lifestyle choice.

However that doesn't mean a very high standard can't be used to cull the herd.

One HUGE reason Presidents catch hell in any reduction is the pet projects Congressmen have in their districts. Doesn't matter if the Military wants the new system, doesn't matter if the program can actually work... its jobs in his/her district and money in the re-election coffer from grateful lobbyists.

Couple that with reducing the global military fiefdoms, redundant bases here and abroad, and alot of powerful folks are enraged at any thought of reducing the military budget.

Our budget, even in the lean years is outragious, equal to the next 14 nation's combined.

It is not that we have that much more risk in the world, we don't. It is a lack of any real critical look at what we have vs what we need. Those charged with this task, in and out of the service, have strong vested interests to avoid just that.

So while railing against it as a severe blow to our security, they cut troop strength.

Makes me wonder
 
#27
Re: 14th Navy CO relieved this year.. What the heck ?

So Navy Officers who get drunk and stupid get relieved and shitcanned, but the Army officers who denied fire support, for hours, to that Marine detachment with the S/S who is gonna get the MOH only get letters of reprimand. They were responsible for a pile of bodies and guys carryig that experience for the rest of their lives.
These squids are lucky that Subic is closed, because if this is how they behave now they sure couldn't have handled Olongapo.
So much unprofessional behavior by Officers is covered up it's disgraceful. They don't want to "embarress" the Corps of Officers, but will crucify enlisted for minor infractions.
 
#28
Re: 14th Navy CO relieved this year.. What the heck ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArcticLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mt Al</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No big surprise as its institutionalized at the Navy.</div></div>
I always love it when people spout off regarding things of which they know nothing.

Josh </div></div>

Actually he is sorta correct.

There's a HUGE push here locally to get women on the Trident subs so there is an absoluite ZERO tolerance on this stuff.

They have removed many CO's and XO's around here in the past year or two. Many of them for comments, some for bad relations, and then job performance (That's the catch-all we don't want to go publi and embarrass ourselves).

</div></div>

Thanks for the backup.

Also, I completely deserve the hide lashing/bitch slap from my post. I meant to write something along the lines of "No surprise as there's is a perception that it's institutionalized in the Navy"..."perception" being the key word and that perception is from congress and definitely from those Services outside the Navy. The carrier video had and has a lot to do with this.

I was at NAVSEA three weeks ago and Dahlgren/PAX river a few weeks prior to that and they were dealing with perception vs. reality on this issue. They were on the 12th or 13th from the year and several are due to perceived or real sexual harassment.

Very sorry for my comment.
 
#29
Re: 14th Navy CO relieved this year.. What the heck ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Donttrytorun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So Navy Officers who get drunk and stupid get relieved and shitcanned, but the Army officers who denied fire support, for hours, to that Marine detachment with the S/S who is gonna get the MOH only get letters of reprimand. They were responsible for a pile of bodies and guys carryig that experience for the rest of their lives.
These squids are lucky that Subic is closed, because if this is how they behave now they sure couldn't have handled Olongapo.
So much unprofessional behavior by Officers is covered up it's disgraceful. They don't want to "embarress" the Corps of Officers, but will crucify enlisted for minor infractions. </div></div>

Damn I normally disagree with you on almost everything but this is one point where you are pretty much on the money.


While in Alaska my platoon sergeant and my company commadner took 4 or 5 Jerry cans of gas and SEVERAL quarts of 2 stroke motor oil from the motor pool.

A disgruntled private in my platoon called CID and got an investigation going.

It was hell there until I got out, they were passing out Article 15's like candy to discredit anyone that knew anything about it.

I wrote my statement and when my time came to get out, I got out...it had a LOT to do with my decision too.

It happens, and sometimes when the mortar platoon sergeant takes an arty simulator home with him and blows out his basement windows he gets PROMOTED and sent to BN HQ...

I'm glad I got out, but I support the troops...(Not necessarily the command).
 
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