175smk & Varget, plus need some input on pressures

EricF517

EricF517

Online Training Member
Full Member
Minuteman
Jan 5, 2009
659
0
Howell, Michigan
#1
Well I took out the rifle to see what the Varget would do with the 175smk. I started my loads at the 42g and worked up to 45g. I tried to get the chrono up and running but the little bit of rain would not allow it to work properly. I also did some pressure testing and want to see if anyone can see any signs of pressure, as I do not nor did I have any stickyness of the bolt or hard lifting of it.

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I am thinking that the range from 44.4 down to 43.8 are very interesting to do more testing on. Seems like that was a very good accuracy node to play with. I will do some more loads in that range and take it to 200yds and see how they do. I hope that next time I can get the chrono working. Going to do some work ups of the brass from the pressure tests to see if I can find another node.
 
#2
Re: 175smk & Varget, plus need some input on pressures

I can not really see the primer edges...they look flat...but do you still see curve (rounded) appearance where the primer cup goes down into the brass...I would assume the answer is yes! since there is still a gap visible..usually the primer will go flat/flsuh with a hot load... The primer cratering is from the primer cup oozing around the firing pin when it stikes the primer and the round is fired... This is where guys get their firing pins bushed...to close the gap... the range you are shooting is what most guys are shooting.. I shoot 44gr varget in Hornady brass with a Wolf primer
 
#4
Re: 175smk & Varget, plus need some input on pressures

Hmm.... In my opinion all of your primers look kinda flat, I would take some calipers and measure the webs of the cases and make sure there are no pressure signs there.

As far as accuracy nodes with the 175 and varget, It is very common to find a good load or node in the 44.4 - 44.8 or even 45 gr range. The varget seems to offer greater consistency and lower ES's when ran at near max pressures. I run 44.8 grains of varget with Wolf primers in Lapua brass to push the 175's at 2725 through my 24" Krieger tube. No pressure signs and they make hits out past a grand. ES is plus or minus 10 fps.

I would get your chrono up and running for your next batch and grab those calipers to measure web diameters. When you get a good node that offers good ES's, and good accuracy, play with your seating depth. If your not getting hard bolt lift, severely flattened primers, or overly expanded webs, I would play around with charges in the 44.2-44.8 range in .2 gr increments. As always, be very careful and stop at any signs of pressure. I seat em at .020 off the lands, I've had em from touching to .080 off and found this to be the best but each rifle will be different.

Good luck, you are on the right track!
 
#5
Re: 175smk & Varget, plus need some input on pressures

the fed brass you are using is a bit thicker than Lapua or win, try the same "hot" loads in som winchester brass and see if your primers are still flatening and bolt lift is hard,
i run 44 gr varget in Win brass with wolf or CCI BR primers with no sign of pressures or bolt sticking.
 
#6
Re: 175smk & Varget, plus need some input on pressures

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: attherange</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the fed brass you are using is a bit thicker than Lapua or win, try the same "hot" loads in som winchester brass and see if your primers are still flatening and bolt lift is hard,
i run 44 gr varget in Win brass with wolf or CCI BR primers with no sign of pressures or bolt sticking. </div></div>

Federal brass is thicker than Lapua? You might want to get your calipers out. Federal brass is some of the thinnest brass out there.
 
#7
Re: 175smk & Varget, plus need some input on pressures

That brass is nato mil spec less case capacity than commercial with different date head stamps 07/08. I suggest you test with at minimum same date and weigh them in lots, better yet use commercial brass it will have more case capacity.
 
#8
Re: 175smk & Varget, plus need some input on pressures

Nice groups! I'm curious what rifle you're shooting.

I shoot the same combination in my Savage 10FP-LE2B and run 44.2gr Varget with bullets seated about .010" off the lands and get respectible groups. My 26" tube gets them to about 2750 says the chrony.....

My primers look about the same as yours...not as rounded as they went in, but still have the gap at the edges and slight curve. I don't have a bushed firing pin, so I get the mush around the pin indentation....not quite as drastic as yours, though.

My thoughts are, why bush it if I'm just going to punch the primer out later...unless you're getting a tear if the gap was so wide.

Good luck! Keep us posted with chrony results!
 
#9
Re: 175smk & Varget, plus need some input on pressures

I have found that 43 - 44.0 grs of Varget give very accurate results in custom .308's (tighter chambers) and velocities in the 2,740 - 2,805 fps range (24" barrel) using Fed 210m primers and Winchester brass. OCL 2.795"

Note 44.0 is definitely on the "warm" side and flattened primers and loosened the primer pockets when I used Federal brass.

FWIW, I have since toned it down to 42.5 - 43.5gr of Varget.

Good luck ...
 
#10
Re: 175smk & Varget, plus need some input on pressures

I use 43 grains in lc brass, 175 smk 2.795 and get 2500fps exactly at 70degress out of an 18" dpms barrel. I would imagine that translates into about 2650 out of a 24" and 2700 out of a 26" give or take.

edit: primers can lie too, and some loads of varget make pressure sooner than others. My previous varget batch I could put 44.5 in LC brass and not see serious signs, this current one shows pretty good sings at 43.5.
 
#11
Re: 175smk & Varget, plus need some input on pressures

Eric for a more concise set of results, look up the "ladder test" and perform that test rather than printing groups of the same charge weight.

The ladder test will easily help you reveal a true long range load that will yield the least amount of vertical spread.

Best performed at ranges 200 yards or more
wink.gif
 
#12
Re: 175smk & Varget, plus need some input on pressures

175 SMK's, 43 gr Varget, BR2 primers, Hornady Match and WW brass, jumped 10 thous is right on for accuracy out to 1K in my F-T/R rifle. Chrono'ed about 2750 out of my 26" barrel. 44 grs was too hot and I got flat primers and ejector marks.

I know all rifles are different, but I'm amazed that some people go to 45 grains w/o issues.
 
#13
Re: 175smk & Varget, plus need some input on pressures

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Longtrain</div><div class="ubbcode-body">175 SMK's, 43 gr Varget, BR2 primers, Hornady Match and WW brass, jumped 10 thous is right on for accuracy out to 1K in my F-T/R rifle. Chrono'ed about 2750 out of my 26" barrel. 44 grs was too hot and I got flat primers and ejector marks.

I know all rifles are different, but I'm amazed that some people go to 45 grains w/o issues. </div></div>

Right on!! Almost my EXACT load as I mentioned earlier. Good to know someone else found success with it as well! I start getting pressure signs well under the max load in my reloading manual. Nothing dangerous, but not something I want to put my brass through at the very least.
 
#14
Re: 175smk & Varget, plus need some input on pressures

Erik and Longtrain,
My thoughts exactly. My 175s like 43.2 - 43.7 grains Varget in a 22" Gap Crusader. 43.5 seems to be consistantly at 2700 FPS.

I can tell you for a fact that anything at 45 in my rifle shows pressure signs (If you call primers falling out of the pockets pressure signs and oh yeah, flattening and ejector marks), so I also find it surprising when I see alot of loads 45gr+ listed in other threads. When I see them I really hope people reading know to work up to these loads if they attempt them.

madd0c
 
#15
Re: 175smk & Varget, plus need some input on pressures

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Eric for a more concise set of results, look up the "ladder test" and perform that test rather than printing groups of the same charge weight.

The ladder test will easily help you reveal a true long range load that will yield the least amount of vertical spread.

Best performed at ranges 200 yards or more
wink.gif
</div></div>

2nd that.

and those seem like some slight pressure signes not too bad but your seeing some signs of pressure.
Also like the post above ladder testing is a huge plus in reloading I didnt get it at first but now that I understand how it works and use it its a major help in finding those perfect loads...
 
#16
Re: 175smk & Varget, plus need some input on pressures

Interesting to see how many people run close to the same load and results with Varget. Varget doesn't seem to develope as much pressure at higher velocitys as some powders under same conditions.

I ran Varget with 44.5 and fed 210m neck sized in both 700p and 700 ltr using 175smk with no change in die setup. Both grouped half inch at 100yrds using fed brass. The 26" was 2680fps and the 20" was 2580fps. Slight pressure sign on edge of primer with 700p. Ltr had no pressure signs on edge but had slight ejector mark. I was able to run about 12 reloads on both sets of brass before there was a slight notice of the primers not seating firm. Same results in 30F to about 80F temps.
 
#17
Re: 175smk & Varget, plus need some input on pressures

Yea I've noticed around 43g and 44g loads seem to be the sweet spots for this combo. Then you find some randome guys getting 47g loads. lol

But a lot of people seem to get the same result out of 700's which is that 43 to 44g money spot.
 
#18
Re: 175smk & Varget, plus need some input on pressures

Longtrain, eric.s and madd0c...

Im gathering you gentlemen have custom barrels/chambers and actions?

I would love to know the actuall pressures your rifles exert in comparison to those of us with "factory" barrels/chambers that tend to run a higher dose of varget.

The fact that you guys are getting 2700-2750 FPS with the 175smk and varget combo whilst sitting at 43-43.5gr varget, makes me think you must have match spec chambers to be getting those sorts of figures.

I look forward to the day I get to rebarrel my rifle
smile.gif
 
#19
Re: 175smk & Varget, plus need some input on pressures

Idk V.. I see a lot of people hitting that 43 to 45g mark for this combo.. Usually its around 44.4g's.. But then when I see those guys pushing 42g's thats when I suspect some custom work going on..

But I talked to this kid who had 2 sps T's and a 700P and he said one of his tacticals saw pressure around 44.0g's and the other was at 47.0 to see pressure signs.. I dont remember what the 700P was at but he said they just seem to have a mind of their own on pressures.

But if you guys are using custom rifle please let us know lol
Very interested on those replies.
 
#20
Re: 175smk & Varget, plus need some input on pressures

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Longtrain, eric.s and madd0c...

Im gathering you gentlemen have custom barrels/chambers and actions?

I would love to know the actuall pressures your rifles exert in comparison to those of us with "factory" barrels/chambers that tend to run a higher dose of varget.

The fact that you guys are getting 2700-2750 FPS with the 175smk and varget combo whilst sitting at 43-43.5gr varget, makes me think you must have match spec chambers to be getting those sorts of figures.

I look forward to the day I get to rebarrel my rifle
smile.gif
</div></div>

Box stock Savage 10FP-LE2B with McMillan A3 stock and 26" button rifled HBar. I too was suprised at the velocity I was getting from a factory barrel but ran MANY rounds through a trusted high quality chrono, not the $99 special. Haven't done the nitty gritty of actual pressures, but know that I show signs at 45gr as explained in my previous post (flattened primers and "oozing" around the firing pin dimple). I can't remember what the "never exceed" grains were from my manual, but I never got there because of pressure signs. I want to say it was 47grns or something.

Could have gotten lucky with this rifle holding tight chamber tolerances but I have had NO issues with it at all. Only complaint is that the ejector doesn't throw the shells out far enough for my liking. Has been known to lay them in the chamber on occasion which can present issues for competitions when "semi" rapid fire is a requirement.
 
#21
Re: 175smk & Varget, plus need some input on pressures

Can't find any information on the Crusader's chamber specs on the GAP website, and I am not going to cast it
smile.gif


I am sure it is a tighter chamber, but I am not neck turning (at least not because of the chamber).

madd0c
 
#22
Re: 175smk & Varget, plus need some input on pressures

Just for fun (and for test purposes) I shot my GAP Crusader at last month's 600 yard match at Butner NC. It's barrel measures 19" from the front of the recoil lug to the muzzle.

One of the test loads was 43.5gr Varget, LC Match brass, WLR primers with 175gr SMK. Even though F-class is a single load game, these rounds were loaded for use in standard AICS mags. My two match scores shot that Saturday with this load were 197 and 195. I'm not sure of their velocity, but it was about 65 dergees and I had to come up 13 min up from a 200 yard zero.

Funny thing is that the next morning, I shot the same load except a 168 SMK, and shot a 199 and 197. Guess the load almost doesn't matter when you're shooting a GAP.
grin.gif
 
#24
Re: 175smk & Varget, plus need some input on pressures

I found that my 168gr SMKs weren't doing well at 1k through my 1/10 twist barrel, so I stuck with the 175s. Because of Sierra's consistency and shooting at the node, I was able to work up a solid load. I'm pretty sure you can work up a solid load with alot of different bullets, you just have to find the node and see what works best at the distance you're shooting at. The 178gr A-max worked pretty well for me also but had some inconsistencies in the OAL of the bullets. I use a comparator for true measurements, but the SMKs are soooo consistent.
 
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