178gr ELD-X Load Data FINAL TESTING W/ VARGET 6-29

[ChiefSillyHorse]

what he say's above post . My groups all looked like that .
using ( 11-24 twist / 24" barrel ) . the ELDx's grouped like your Pic's till I poured more juice to them an bumped over 33 grains of powder .
.

Prior to that set of groups, shots in the 42.0 range were .5 moa or less, which i was pretty happy with. My rifle has an extremely tight chamber, and was starting to get pressure signs in the 43.0 range. I think I'm going to load a few more in the 42.0 to the 42.4 range and see if it was just me shooting like crap or what.

 

[intohuntin]

Any updates Chief?

I got some data that might help you out with deciding to push the envelope.

My rifle is a .308 Remington Model 7 synthetic 20" 1:10" twist barrel, I bought 2 boxes of item number 80994 lot number 3173445 (Which is the Precision Hunter in .308 using the 178 gr. ELD-X bullet) on Sept 12th, 2018, and shot them on the 13th, temp was 70 degrees, humidity 86%, and elevation is 1,300 feet. Shots were conducted in 5 shots strings, barrel cleaned every 5th shot, and barrel allowed to cool before the next string. The high and low fps recorded using the V3 Magnetospeed chronograph was 2,534 and 2,482. There was no pressure signs as expected, and being how I almost hit the published 2,600 fps data mark using this rifle, tells me that it must be capable to go faster then expected safely.

I have not measured my chamber yet, and wish I knew what the charge was and what powder Hornady uses that got me to 2,534 fps on that one factory loaded unicorn cartridge. I'm gonna get the tools together to measure my chamber, and start reloading soon myself, sounds like Varget is the ticket so far...handles temp swings well, and gets good results on the chronograph. Hope to hear back with more results and updates from you, this is the first thread I've come across that covers this bullet in detail IMHO.

Thanks for all the contribution you've added so far, it got my wheels turning

 

[bfglowkey]

If your POI is similar with 42.0 and 42.2 then split the uprights and load 5 42.1's and verify POI and numbers....then call it a day. Then you can mess with seating depth if you want to squeeze any more accuracy....but I think your there chief

 

[bfglowkey]

If I read your targets correctly then 42.0&42.2 share similar POI.....so ya...my vote is definitely 42.1....5 shots....record and your golden.

 

[XLR308]

Your results look very similar to what I came away with using the 178AMAX in a 26" 1-12 twist using both Varget and AR-COMP, the accuracy nodes for both powders were right around 2650fps and 1/2 MOA but I shot quite a few 5 shot groups instead of 3 shot and a couple of 10 shot groups that hovered around the 5/8" mark to slightly over that.
The 178 has been my favorite bullet in 308 so far even though I couldnt match the accuracy Ive seen with the 168 at short range.

 

[Falar]

Has anyone tried RL17 with these?

I see the numbers posted here with 2000MR are insane, but my QL doesn't have that (last updated in '16) and predicts RL17 to be the fastest with the 178 ELD X.

 

[Retvet2009]

What is the barrel length of Hornady's test gun for this data? I ask because I noticed they have RL17 listed with their max charge only producing 2450 fps. My max charge for RL17 and a 178 gr ELD-M is 49 gr which is only 0.1 gr higher than Hornady's. I'm getting 2817 fps average from a 24 inch barrel with an SD in the 5's.

View attachment 6901962

 

[Falar]

What is the barrel length of Hornady's test gun for this data? I ask because I noticed they have RL17 listed with their max charge only producing 2450 fps. My max charge for RL17 and a 178 gr ELD-M is 49 gr which is only 0.1 gr higher than Hornady's. I'm getting 2817 fps average from a 24 inch barrel with an SD in the 5's.

I saw that and WTF'd too.

When I ran a powder report RL17 showed to be tops via QL's calculations, but it has been off on RL17 before. Also, the "PP" powders aren't in my powder files.

178 ELD-X
2.860" COAL
Virgin Win brass (56.1gr H20 Capacity)
2.00" case length
It predicts a top charge of 48.9gr before hitting 62k which is max for .308. 109.4% compressed.

At that charge:

24" 2804fps
20" 2702
16" 2566

I'm interested in the 16" and 20" numbers but again, in real life I've usually seen 75fps change from 16-20 and again from 20-24. If I want to try something new usually I mock it up in QL and then see if I can verify that combo with any real life users before plunking down the $$$ on the resources. I may have to suck it up and buy a labradar and become the guinea pig.

 

[Falar]

I have a Chrony Gamma Master I just dug out after 6 years of not using it. I don't even know if it works still but I think I'd rather just upgrade though.

I haven't loaded .308 since at least '10/11, when RL17 was new. On a side note I was able to push the 208 A-max to 2700 from a 24" barrel with 51gr, albeit at a COAL of 3.00". They still fit in the Savage magazine too. It really is hard to go too hot with RL17 in .308 because it is so slow burning relative to the case size generally you'll not be able to get enough powder in the case to do so.

With the A-max being old news and these new ELDs being so much better than the old 175/178 class bullets I'm getting interested enough to try even though I'm sitting on a few thousand rounds of 762FGMM. .80 more BC and maybe another 100fps? My range only goes to 550 but I am still intrigued.

 

[Falar]

I also tried that stuff back then. Didn't prove too useful to me and I sold the whole setup. When I search back here it is weird what comes up from the pre-Scout days and what doesn't.

 

[308Gunner]

A drop tube is your friend, I have a 18” Broughton that is a 1-10 it shoots 44.2gr of Varget into one big hole that will measure 5/8 outside to outside. That is with a 175SMK or a 178. Speed is 2650 running suppressed. The primers are still good and I have 7 loads on windy brass

 

[scoobyshoot]

I'm happy to read all this reload data for eld-x 178. I tried them with 41,5 VV140 and 43 and 44 Ramshot BigGame. you can read all in my data below.
https://sites.google.com/view/reload-cheap-subsonic/homepage

 

[918v]

Prior to that set of groups, shots in the 42.0 range were .5 moa or less, which i was pretty happy with. My rifle has an extremely tight chamber, and was starting to get pressure signs in the 43.0 range. I think I'm going to load a few more in the 42.0 to the 42.4 range and see if it was just me shooting like crap or what.

If your rifle has a tight chamber, step down to Win commercial brass and up the charge to 43.5- 44grs of Varget.

 

[ubettcha]

I have a .298 bore so I cannot get much more than 42grains of varget without cratering the primers every other shot with 175/78's. However at 42 in FGMM brass once fired 210m 2.845 I get 2880 with 12es. I run 41.6 for 2845 ES 11 and sd of 4 per 10 shots. Coldbore is good dirty but out when clean.
CFE223 runs faster by 50+fps have not done much yet with 175's
42.2 Varget 118LR brass #34 168 Berger hunting vld sub 1/2moa as far as I can call the wind. ES 13 sd 6 2865fps
150 Lehigh still under construction shoots good slow with 4064 sub 1" at 300yds but only 2715fps Lapua brass 210m 2.850 coal. I plan to try 8208 to and get some speed. Hoping for 2950+ and should get there with that 4895 or rl15

 

[ChiefSillyHorse]

Great to see this thread started back up. I've been extremely busy these last few months, but I will be finishing up loading for the 178's and finishing my data collection soon. I will be sure to finalize all results and share them with everyone. Next research will be 6.5CM with the 143 and 147's in Hornady's bullets. I did load 2 sets of 5 shots at 42.5 and had good results and accuracy. I will have to dig that info up and share soon.

 

[color_me_gone]

Has anyone worked up an accurate load for the 308 Winchester using the IMR-4064 with Hornady 178 GR ELD-X out of a Remington R5 20" bbl. I run IMR-4064 in this rifle shooting the 168 GR HPBTMK and all works well at 43.5 GR of powder. From what I can tell it appears 43.5 GR of IMR 4064 will be fine with the 178 GR bullet based on what I see coming from IMR web sight where they are using 180 GR SP and still be under their max load. Any ideas on this before I get busy loading. Please send your input to [email protected] too since I don't visit here often. Thanks in advance.

 

[fdkay]

Has anyone worked up an accurate load for the 308 Winchester using the IMR-4064 with Hornady 178 GR ELD-X out of a Remington R5 20" bbl. I run IMR-4064 in this rifle shooting the 168 GR HPBTMK and all works well at 43.5 GR of powder. From what I can tell it appears 43.5 GR of IMR 4064 will be fine with the 178 GR bullet based on what I see coming from IMR web sight where they are using 180 GR SP and still be under their max load. Any ideas on this before I get busy loading.

 

[color_me_gone]

So I guessing 41.75 GR of IMR 4064 pushing 179 GR ELD-X will have slightly higher pressure but will not exceed max pressure the R5 will hold. From what I'm seeing here 41.57 GR of IMR 4064 would be at the low end of the scale even when launching a 180 GR bullet and should be safe and may even produce a velocity of ~ 2,500 FPS. I believe Hornady 178 GR ELD-X from the factory is 2,600 FPS

There is just so much information out there like this that make me wonder what's true and what is not. ( 42.5 grains averaged 2,730 fps and flat primers. Between ( 41.0 and 41.5 grains is likely to duplicate factory velocity. ) It does appear that 41.57 GR of 4064 is a good place to start and may be spot-on where was my wanting to start at 43.5 GR would have been a problem base on what IMR suggested as seen here. Thanks for the information and the starting point. If all is well this 178 GR ELD-X should be very accurate and more effective on the ( mark ) than the 175 GR HPBTMK unless Hornady G7 BC is a lie in order to sell their product.

 

[fdkay]

So I guessing 41.75 GR of IMR 4064 pushing 179 GR ELD-X will have slightly higher pressure but will not exceed max pressure the R5 will hold. From what I'm seeing here 41.57 GR of IMR 4064 would be at the low end of the scale even when launching a 180 GR bullet and should be safe and may even produce a velocity of ~ 2,500 FPS. I believe Hornady 178 GR ELD-X from the factory is 2,600 FPS

There is just so much information out there like this that make me wonder what's true and what is not. ( 42.5 grains averaged 2,730 fps and flat primers. Between ( 41.0 and 41.5 grains is likely to duplicate factory velocity. ) It does appear that 41.57 GR of 4064 is a good place to start and may be spot-on where was my wanting to start at 43.5 GR would have been a problem base on what IMR suggested as seen here. Thanks for the information and the starting point. If all is well this 178 GR ELD-X should be very accurate and more effective on the ( mark ) than the 175 GR HPBTMK unless Hornady G7 BC is a lie in order to sell their product.

Hornady BC's tend to be pretty accurate.
I have used the M118LR load data in my rifle with the 178 ELD without issue.
It is a fairly middle of the road load.
One thing, be VERY careful with brass.
federal brass is rather thick and you will hit pressures well before you would with remington or winchester brass.
If you can, buy yourself some starline brass, you can order straight from them. It is excellent brass.

 

[color_me_gone]

Hornady BC's tend to be pretty accurate.
I have used the M118LR load data in my rifle with the 178 ELD without issue.
It is a fairly middle of the road load.
One thing, be VERY careful with brass.
federal brass is rather thick and you will hit pressures well before you would with remington or winchester brass.
If you can, buy yourself some starline brass, you can order straight from them. It is excellent brass.

Unfortunately I'l stuck with ~ 2000 rds of federal brass for now. I did notice one thing I did not like. After ~ 4 reloads of 43.5 GR of IMR 4064 pushing the Sierra 168 GR BTHPMK the brass was showing stretch marks and some even cracked down by the base. I stopped full length sizing and went to neck sizing only hoping this will allow me to get more reloads per piece of brass.

 

[fdkay]

Unfortunately I'l stuck with ~ 2000 rds of federal brass for now. I did notice one thing I did not like. After ~ 4 reloads of 43.5 GR of IMR 4064 pushing the Sierra 168 GR BTHPMK the brass was showing stretch marks and some even cracked down by the base. I stopped full length sizing and went to neck sizing only hoping this will allow me to get more reloads per piece of brass.

sort the brass by weight.
That will help you track what's going on.

 

[color_me_gone]

sort the brass by weight.
That will help you track what's going on.

Will do. It sound like you are telling me factory new Federal brass is not very uniform in thickness in all areas and their quality control leaves a lot to be desired. I can't understand how this could be since these 2000 rds of live ammo are match grade 308 Winchester 168 GR BT HP MK ammo. If they sell stuff like this to the military who're expected to hit their target 1000 plus yards out you think precision on all components would be an absolute must. Regardless, we will start weighing the brass and projectiles too.

 

[ChiefSillyHorse]

Thanks for reviving this thread. Life has gotten in the way of shooting and testing. I am moving in a month or so and once things smooth out I hope to start shooting and loading more! Keep posting any info you have about the 178gr ELD-X as you come across it!

 

[Darkside-Six]

I could never get the 178’s to shoot as good as I had hoped in my old 308 with varget. Sold the gun and got a 308 barrel for my AX. Had about 100 left so used them to break in the barrel and then switched to the Berger 168 hybrids but I had also switched back to IMR4064 cause I could never get the results I wanted with varget. Loaded up 43 grains and shot them. Towards the end of the 178’s I had I put the chrono on them and they were right around 2700 with single digit SD’s. They grouped really nice at 100 and that’s as far as I’ve taken them as I switched bullets. That was with a 24” Bartlein and Lapua brass. Fed 210 primers. I think somewhere between 42.7-43.5 you’ll find I nice node.

 

[color_me_gone]

I will soon be shooting the Hornady 178 gr ELD-X in my AR-10 but have been told there may be issues with this bullet in a semi-auto magazine fed rifle. They are saying the plastic tip can be deformed as it is pushed up into the feed ramp or even possibly break off affecting the bullet performance or serious malfunction of the rifle. Has anyone had this experience or can tell us any information. Sure would be nice to know if Hornady has done such testing. I've already written Hornady's tech support department but have gotten no feedback so I can only assume they never thought about this possibility or have not tested it since the bullet seems to be geared towards hunters not marksmen, snipers or for home defense.

 

[GIXXER2000]

I did shoot some Nosler 180gr Hunting Tipped bullets in my Sig 716 without issue. They were very consistent out to 800 nothing weird so i think the tip worked ok. To me the only reason I wouldn't shoot the 178 ELD-X in my AR-10 would be how far you would need to seat them in to get the mag length of 2.8ish

 

[color_me_gone]

I did shoot some Nosler 180gr Hunting Tipped bullets in my Sig 716 without issue. They were very consistent out to 800 nothing weird so i think the tip worked ok. To me the only reason I wouldn't shoot the 178 ELD-X in my AR-10 would be how far you would need to seat them in to get the mag length of 2.8ish

Yes I will be seating the 178 gr ELD-X to where the OAL is 2.810" as I do for all my bolt action rifles too. So far five in a penny at 100 yards had been pretty consistent but I'd really like to get a tighter group. Working on that five in a dime as I use to with my 7 mm REM Mag. If you don't mind me asking what type of groups are you getting at 800 yards just so I don't go off thinking I should be doing better. Thanks for the information.

 

[GIXXER2000]

They were not bad for hunting bullets from what i remember 2 moa groups were the norm from 500 to 800 yards after that they didn't do well. Now I shoot Nosler 175 Custom Comps and am able to hit a 18in gong at 1024 yards at least 5 out of 10 and the ones i miss are just off the edge.
In my AI-AE .308 the OALis 2.88 and the shoot 1/2 MOA or better and have shot them out to 1600 with very good accuracy.

 

[intohuntin]

Finally got my tools!

So the SAMMI std .308 Win free bore is .090".

Using a 178 gr. ELD-X bullet pulled from a live cartridge and the .308 modified case to measure my free bore.
The 20" barreled Model 7 I own has a chamber measurement of 2.947" touching the L&Gs.
The factory loaded ELD-X 178gr ammo OAL is coming in at 2.803" consistently on 6 different boxes purchased from Academy in Dec. 2018.
If I reload the cartridge to 2.857" that pulls .054" out of this rifles free bore and puts the chamber at the SAMMI recommended free bore length for .308 Win.

I can tell you this rifle might as well be a shotgun shooting slugs using the factory loads, the groups are 6" at 100 yds. using a 4-18 SIG BDX scope and I'm pretty sure a slug gun is more accurate then this POS using the bead.

Hope to get some free time this month to start at the new cartridge length, my plan will be to weigh the powder charges out as I go and run the with the heaviest charge found as the starting point.

I appreciate Falar's contribution, it helps me with some data points to consider, just wish I knew how far out, is to far for this bullet.

 

[color_me_gone]

Finally got my tools!

So the SAMMI std .308 Win free bore is .090".

Using a 178 gr. ELD-X bullet pulled from a live cartridge and the .308 modified case to measure my free bore.
The 20" barreled Model 7 I own has a chamber measurement of 2.947" touching the L&Gs.
The factory loaded ELD-X 178gr ammo OAL is coming in at 2.803" consistently on 6 different boxes purchased from Academy in Dec. 2018.
If I reload the cartridge to 2.857" that pulls .054" out of this rifles free bore and puts the chamber at the SAMMI recommended free bore length for .308 Win.

I can tell you this rifle might as well be a shotgun shooting slugs using the factory loads, the groups are 6" at 100 yds. using a 4-18 SIG BDX scope and I'm pretty sure a slug gun is more accurate then this POS using the bead.

Hope to get some free time this month to start at the new cartridge length, my plan will be to weigh the powder charges out as I go and run the with the heaviest charge found as the starting point.

I appreciate Falar's contribution, it helps me with some data points to consider, just wish I knew how far out, is to far for this bullet.

I will be loading this Hornady 178 GR ELD-X in 2021 if I get my components by then and hope to have a lot better results. If not I'll be going back to my 168GR HPBT MK. Hornady is making much better claims as you can see by the information in this attached file

 

[Deleted member 113831]

178 BTHP in an AI at 300yds. Top group is M118LR pulled down brass with the gunny necks and all. The bottom group is after prepping the brass and loaded with a Win LR primer. Both loaded on a 650XL dropping bullets and powder. 45.3gr BL-C2.

That is a pretty hot load for LC brass. Ever have trouble with it in the summer?

Watch those WLR primers closely, they are the smallest diameter LR primers on the market that I'm aware of. If your pockets open up at all they will leak gas and cut or pockmark your bolt face.

 

[color_me_gone]

That is a pretty hot load for LC brass. Ever have trouble with it in the summer?

Watch those WLR primers closely, they are the smallest diameter LR primers on the market that I'm aware of. If your pockets open up at all they will leeak gas and cut or pockmark your bolt face.

I'll be using 41.5 GR of IMR4064 with FED brass at 2.800" OAL and M210 primer. This was the suggested load given to me by someone who reversed engineered the factory 308 WIN 178GR ELD-X

 

[Deleted member 113831]

I'll be using 41.5 GR of IMR4064 with FED brass at 2.800" OAL and M210 primer. This was the suggested load given to me by someone who reversed engineered the factory 308 WIN 178GR ELD-X

The burn rate of IMR4064 is right between H4895 and Varget. With a 178 or 175 in Federal brass, most end up somewhere between 41.5 and 42.5 grains. You are in good territory. Federal brass doesn't take much pressure before the pockets start expanding.

 

[color_me_gone]

The burn rate of IMR4064 is right between H4895 and Varget. With a 178 or 175 in Federal brass, most end up somewhere between 41.5 and 42.5 grains. You are in good territory. Federal brass doesn't take much pressure before the pockets start expanding.

That would be shooting a Hornady 178 GR ELD-X. BTW: Is anyone else having trouble getting components, scopes, red-dot, live ammo, etc from their preferred dealers. I have an order in from July 17th and they still have no idea of when they'll get the goods so they can get them to me. You can IM on this one if you'd like.

 

[AZgeek]

That is a pretty hot load for LC brass. Ever have trouble with it in the summer?

Watch those WLR primers closely, they are the smallest diameter LR primers on the market that I'm aware of. If your pockets open up at all they will leeak gas and cut or pockmark your bolt face.

That's what I love about this site and being a member here. Learn something new all the time. The question I have, has anyone beat Chief's .092 four-shot group?

 

[ChiefSillyHorse]

That's what I love about this site and being a member here. Learn something new all the time. The question I have, has anyone beat Chief's .092 four-shot group?

Great to see some new faces and posts on here. I recently moved, so all of my reloading stuff is packed up until further notice. I moved to Ohio, and my back yard gives me the possibility to shoot out to 240, which is better than the 15 yard range I had when I was in TN. I'm really looking forward to getting all my reloading stuff set back up and re-verifying previous loads in my rifles as well as advancing testing on this load. I think it has the ability to have great performance in specific rifles. With reloading components getting harder to find, I'm glad that I stocked up on them through the years so I can have a reliable source of match ammunition and ammunition to hunt with as well. I think that this bullet will fill both roles admirably. I've not been shooting nearly as much as I want to, so I would be lucky to shoot 1.092 right now! If anyone has any new information about this bullet and loading for it, I'm all ears!

 

[color_me_gone]

Great to see some new faces and posts on here. I recently moved, so all of my reloading stuff is packed up until further notice. I moved to Ohio, and my back yard gives me the possibility to shoot out to 240, which is better than the 15 yard range I had when I was in TN. I'm really looking forward to getting all my reloading stuff set back up and re-verifying previous loads in my rifles as well as advancing testing on this load. I think it has the ability to have great performance in specific rifles. With reloading components getting harder to find, I'm glad that I stocked up on them through the years so I can have a reliable source of match ammunition and ammunition to hunt with as well. I think that this bullet will fill both roles admirably. I've not been shooting nearly as much as I want to, so I would be lucky to shoot 1.092 right now! If anyone has any new information about this bullet and loading for it, I'm all ears!

That's what I love about this site and being a member here. Learn something new all the time. The question I have, has anyone beat Chief's .092 four-shot group?

I keep hearing about LC brass being good and then I hear it bad. So what is it? Is this military brass the LC you're all talking about

 

[Multi-Tool]

LC brass is military brass. It is stout and tends to be thicker than many commercial choices. You might want to sort them by weight.

 

[color_me_gone]

LC brass is military brass. It is stout and tends to be thicker than many commercial choices. You might want to sort them by weight.

Are you saying the volume of the LC's brass used by the military are not consistent. So I'm guessing these LC cases are not what is used to build military precession sniper ammo. If not, do you know what brass they use to get consistent volumes

 

[Multi-Tool]

I not familiar with the consistency of the brass used in military ammo designed for long range use, such as M118LR. I would expect that it would be more consistent than garden-variety LC brass. The military can procure most any ammo they like from vendors to the specs that they develop. There are others on this forum who are more informed than I am about military processes.

 

[color_me_gone]

View attachment 6901962

Gone

 

[color_me_gone]

I am having trouble finding established load data for the 178gr ELD-X bullet for my .308

Anyone have a min and max load from Hornady in the 10th edition or elsewhere? I’m using 9th and nothing. I generally use Varget but I wouldn’t mind seeing 4064 as well even though i should get a higher FPS with the Varget.

In addition I wouldn’t mind seeing the minimum and maximum FPS if it’s not too much trouble.

Anyone else running Varget on the ELD-X’s? 43gr for me in that bullet range has generally shot 1/2 MOA for me in my McMillan Tac-308.

I normally shoot 175 SMK’s but I got a good deal on 600 projectiles from SH ToddMonty and I’ve heard good things.

Thanks in advance,

M. Wright

Gone

 

[Evintos]

How come IMR-4064 is not listed in their manual and yet it comes up as the powder used in their military contract build sheet I have seen out here on this forum

1. When it comes to published manuals, there's a reason why it's a good idea to have multiple sources to cross reference load data. The books are cheap, buy multiple different ones.

2. I think you're new to handloading, so just keep in mind that for liability reasons, most max charge listings in manuals are conservative. In those cases, it's easy to exceed the ratings the book max. When working up loads, do so CAREFULLY.

3. Military loads tend to be loaded "hotter" in many cases. The highest velocity load is not necessarily the most precise. You as a handloader have control over that. The military also does not reuse brass.

4. Using load data posted on any forum as a reference should be taken as a rough guideline of where you may or may not see good results. Your equipment (rifle, press, dies, components) and your practice (handloading steps) will ultimately dictate what results you get.

 

[color_me_gone]

1. When it comes to published manuals, there's a reason why it's a good idea to have multiple sources to cross reference load data. The books are cheap, buy multiple different ones.

2. I think you're new to handloading, so just keep in mind that for liability reasons, most max charge listings in manuals are conservative. In those cases, it's easy to exceed the ratings the book max. When working up loads, do so CAREFULLY.

3. Military loads tend to be loaded "hotter" in many cases. The highest velocity load is not necessarily the most precise. You as a handloader have control over that. The military also does not reuse brass.

4. Using load data posted on any forum as a reference should be taken as a rough guideline of where you may or may not see good results. Your equipment (rifle, press, dies, components) and your practice (handloading steps) will ultimately dictate what results you get.

View attachment 7596047

Gone

 

[Evintos]

Velocity - purchase a chronograph.

The listed velocities in manuals are based off the test rifles listed in their manual. Bolt action vs gas operated semi-auto will have different velocities even with the same barrel lengths. Bolt actions will exhibit higher velocities than semi-autos (generally speaking) Different semi-autos depending on how efficient their operating system is will have different velocities. Gas trap vs Direct Impingement (Stoner gas design) vs Short Stroke Gas Piston vs Long stroke gas piston. They all have varying velocities. The most accurate velocity data is one you obtain yourself using a quality chronograph.

You have to get out of the mindset that you have to follow any published data "to a T" and that if you follow it to a 'T' you will get the same results. You might, you might not. No rifle is the same, no environmental factor is the same. No component is the same (powder quality can vary by lot number). No equipment is the same; your dies, press, powder measurer, all play a factor.

Finding the "magic combination" is one of the purposes of handloading and working up a load for EACH individual firearm is the only way to do it. Hope plays no factor in it. It's the experiments, tests, and evaluations that gets you the best results.

Use load data as a starting point, a reference, a guideline. Look up the directions for a Ladder test or OCW test. Work up a load for your rifle. Believe in the results of your work up. Yes it takes a lot of time. No, it doesn't necessarily take a lot of money.

If you're not willing to do the work up, I suggest sticking with factory ammo.

Edited to add: No need to obsessed over velocity if all you're looking for is a generic sub-MOA load.

 

[color_me_gone]

Velocity - purchase a chronograph.

The listed velocities in manuals are based off the test rifles listed in their manual. Bolt action vs gas operated semi-auto will have different velocities even with the same barrel lengths. Bolt actions will exhibit higher velocities than semi-autos (generally speaking) Different semi-autos depending on how efficient their operating system is will have different velocities. Gas trap vs Direct Impingement (Stoner gas design) vs Short Stroke Gas Piston vs Long stroke gas piston. They all have varying velocities. The most accurate velocity data is one you obtain yourself using a quality chronograph.

You have to get out of the mindset that you have to follow any published data "to a T" and that if you follow it to a 'T' you will get the same results. You might, you might not. No rifle is the same, no environmental factor is the same. No component is the same (powder quality can vary by lot number). No equipment is the same; your dies, press, powder measurer, all play a factor.

Finding the "magic combination" is one of the purposes of handloading and working up a load for EACH individual firearm is the only way to do it. Hope plays no factor in it. It's the experiments, tests, and evaluations that gets you the best results.

Use load data as a starting point, a reference, a guideline. Look up the directions for a Ladder test or OCW test. Work up a load for your rifle. Believe in the results of your work up. Yes it takes a lot of time. No, it doesn't necessarily take a lot of money.

If you're not willing to do the work up, I suggest sticking with factory ammo.

Edited to add: No need to obsessed over velocity if all you're looking for is a generic sub-MOA load.

Gone

 

[Howland]

@nvrpc1, you are looking at Service Rifle data. It is for M14/M1A that are limited due to the operating rod system. Try the non Service Rifle data a few pages before.

Hodgdon also has data for IMR-4064.

Reloading Data Center

www.hodgdonreloading.com

 

[DJL2]

I bounced around a lot of different reloading data and eventually grabbed a copy of QuickLoad just to have another reference. Ultimately, between how varied the data can be and how conservative the data can be, I wanted some idea of what pressures I might be running. QL isn't perfect, of course, but it's worthwhile, I think.

For example, QL tells me that in a SAAMI chamber at 2.8" COL, you should get roughly 2600 fps out of 42 grains of IMR-4064 @62 ksi. That 39 grain charge is, in QL theory, 49 ksi (waaaay light) for 2425 fps (or near enough).

The other thing to remember is that bullet shape matters...maybe a lot. An old school 180 grain design like the Partition, for example, is 1.260 inches long. That 178 ELD-X is 1.401 inches long. That means if you seat both of them at 2.8 inches you get (again, QL theory) a usable capacity of 47.35 grains for the Partition and 44.78 for the ELD-X. Now, the obvious issue is that different brass has different internal volume. That being said, that internal volume difference is significant and it impacts your pressure curve/build. For example, if I run that same 42 grain charge of 4064, I get 2525 fps @ 55.25 ksi for the Partition. That's one nice thing about Hodgdon on-line is it breaks things down by bullet.

 

[ubettcha]

I bounced around a lot of different reloading data and eventually grabbed a copy of QuickLoad just to have another reference. Ultimately, between how varied the data can be and how conservative the data can be, I wanted some idea of what pressures I might be running. QL isn't perfect, of course, but it's worthwhile, I think.

For example, QL tells me that in a SAAMI chamber at 2.8" COL, you should get roughly 2600 fps out of 42 grains of IMR-4064 @62 ksi. That 39 grain charge is, in QL theory, 49 ksi (waaaay light) for 2425 fps (or near enough).

The other thing to remember is that bullet shape matters...maybe a lot. An old school 180 grain design like the Partition, for example, is 1.260 inches long. That 178 ELD-X is 1.401 inches long. That means if you seat both of them at 2.8 inches you get (again, QL theory) a usable capacity of 47.35 grains for the Partition and 44.78 for the ELD-X. Now, the obvious issue is that different brass has different internal volume. That being said, that internal volume difference is significant and it impacts your pressure curve/build. For example, if I run that same 42 grain charge of 4064, I get 2525 fps @ 55.25 ksi for the Partition. That's one nice thing about Hodgdon on-line is it breaks things down by bullet.

Overall bullet length has less to do about pressure than bearing surface. Take the 215 berger hybrid and the old standard 190 smk. The Berger is far longer but has a bearing surface of .463. This is why the 215 can be pushed to the same speeds even with 25 grains more weight. Run cfe223 or lever revolution in the 308 and you will get more velocity with the 215 vs the 178 load you have in this post with 4064. Change the coal to 2.940 to fit in the longer acis mags and you open up ballistics that the 308 never had before. Run the 178 with these powders and add in MR2000 and you will see a major uptick in velocity without undue pressure. Think 2800 in a good 26" But like all rifles some will work out and others ust will not shoot the combo well

 

[DJL2]

Bearing length certainly matters, but it’s not an input variable in QL so far as I can tell. I’m not sure what needs to be tweaked in QL to model that, but it’s something to play with anyway.

Seating depth/COL is an input with easily identified secondary effects though, even shooting the same bullet.

My point was that @nvrpc1 cannot expect different bullets with different effective seating depths (or bearing surfaces) to use the same powder charge.