1st round flyer, what is going on?

[Coyote Kev]

I have an interesting and infururating phenomenon going on with my AR 10. More correctly it’s a DPMS style large frame AR. I have a JP upper and a DPMS lower. Anyway, I bought a Dracos barrel in 260 Rem to replace my JP 260 barrel. I had nothing but problems getting it to group. More specifically it would shoot the first shot high and group the next X number of shoots very nicely about 1 inch below. It shot very well except for that first shot. So well in fact that I went to great lengths to figure it out. The interesting thing is that it only happened when the barrel was cold. If I kept the barrel warm by shooting another group within a minute or two they all grouped very well. If I waited 5 min or so, then I was back to 1 high and the rest 1 inch lower. This was repeatable through powder charge increases when shooting a ladder test. This was with 130 ELDs and H4350. I also shot 123 ELDs and got the same result except closer to 2 inches between the first and the rest of the shots. Talked to Dracos many times and tried many things, they all yielded the same results. So Dracos sends me a new 260 barrel. Same thing. I even think that maybe my JP receiver is warped so I build a whole new rifle out of Aero parts and get the same result. I also tried unsupressed, but all it changed was the orientation of the first bullet to the rest. Finally Dracos takes back my second 260Rem barrel and sends me 6.5 Creedmoor. Same result. I’m handloading mostly, but have tried factory ammo with the same result. Been working on this for over a year. I keep my hair cut short or I would have pulled it all out by now. Any thoughts on this?

 

[CJS-6.5]

Have you chronoed it to see if the velocity is different?

 

[Coyote Kev]

 

[Coyote Kev]

Just a couple examples. You can see very acceptable groups when I don’t let it cool.

 

[Coyote Kev]

Have you chronoed it to see if the velocity is different?

There’s no difference. And how could that be it? It’s always the first shot on a cold barrel. If I have 10 of the same powder charge in the mag and shoot 4 then let it cool and shoot 4 more. That 1st shot of the second group does the the same thing. Even though it was auto loaded and was just sitting in the chamber.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

A higher POI often indicates more rearward rifle shift and muzzle flip during recoil than the norm.

This could be due to some subconscious shooting position readaptation once recoil is felt the first time into a string. Some folks define this as cold shooter syndrome.

Greg

 

[Coyote Kev]

To be fair to Dracos, they have had excellent customer service. They have sent me 2 new barrels without any coercing on my part. But..... I want to know what is wrong with the barrel I send back to them. I’ve gotten generic replies like “the rifleing was jacked”. They have provided no scientific answer. I appreciate them trying to keep me happy, but I’ve been through this with 3 barrels and 2 different rifles. I’d like a real explanation. You can say “cold shooter” and all sorts of shit like like that, but it was never a thing with my JP barrel. And it doesn’t matter how much I’ve shot that day. On a cold day it really only takes about 5 min of cooling to replicated these results.

 

[Coyote Kev]

A higher POI often indicates more rearward rifle shift and muzzle flip during recoil than the norm.

This could be due to some subconscious shooting position readaptation once recoil is felt the first time into a string. Some folks define this as cold shooter syndrome.

Greg

It is just so reproduceable. You can set your watch to it. Doesn’t occur with my JP barrel.

 

[Coyote Kev]

I’ve shot prone and off the bench. With a Caldwell tack driver front bag and rear bag. Guess I haven’t tried a lead sled. Or I need a different shooter.

 

[Threadcutter308]

Didnt read your whole post. Shooting with a can ? I have reproduceable “cold can” “first round fliers”. If you use a can, remove it and give it a try.

 

[Rocketvapor]

Sounds like different barrels, different loads, can and no can.
That eliminates quite a few things.
If 1st shot ALWAYS goes high, shoot 5, one at a time, 5 or more minutes apart.
Will they group high?
Or is it the first one out of the mag?

 

[SporterII]

Withdrawn

 

[Coyote Kev]

Ok, now to really get your heads scratching. I’ve since got out of Dracos barrels. I also had a 6mm creedmoor Dracos on a completely different upper-lower combo that had similar results. It also had the fun tendency of completely changing POI every time I took the suppressor off and put it back on. Meaning my suppressed zero would change. Anyway, I recently bought a Poof carbon fiber in 6mm creedmoor. This barrel does the same thing but opposite. Now the first round is low and the rest are about 1 inch high and 1/4 inch left. WTF? Again it’s very consistent even through escalating powder charges. I’m willing for my shooting form to take the blame on this one but it doesn’t make sense. I’m not new to large frame gas guns. Been shooting a 260 Rem JP for about 4 years. Never seen this with that rifle combo, or my AR15 or of course bolt guns. Can the problem really be just between my ears?

 

[Coyote Kev]

Sounds like different barrels, different loads, can and no can.
That eliminates quite a few things.
If 1st shot ALWAYS goes high, shoot 5, one at a time, 5 or more minutes apart.
Will they group high?
Or is it the first one out of the mag?

Can be any numbered shot out of the mag. Just has to be after cooling. I’ve tried this in warmer temps, I just have to wait longer to get the same results.

 

[Coyote Kev]

Didnt read your whole post. Shooting with a can ? I have reproduceable “cold can” “first round fliers”. If you use a can, remove it and give it a try.

Read the whole post. It’s long but it is for a reason. Wanted for everyone to have the most info to cut down on suggestions I already tried.

 

[hlee]

Buy a JP barrel...

 

[oldfatguy]

A higher POI often indicates more rearward rifle shift and muzzle flip during recoil than the norm.

This could be due to some subconscious shooting position readaptation once recoil is felt the first time into a string. Some folks define this as cold shooter syndrome.

Greg

Changed loads, bullets, and barrels with same result. So what is constant? I think Greg nailed it.

OFG

 

[Coyote Kev]

Changed loads, bullets, and barrels with same result. So what is constant? I think Greg nailed it.

OFG

If so.... what do I do about it.

 

[hlee]

Dry fire a bunch before you take that first shot.

Also, get up off the rifle and move around a bit. Then get back on it and rebuild your position for the next shot. Rinse and repeat. If you are subconsciously readjusting your position after the first shot, this could show that.

With a carbon fiber wrapped barrel, your rifle may recoil subtly differently than with the all steel JP barrel. You may be combating this and not realize it.

 

[Coyote Kev]

Dry fire a bunch before you take that first shot.

Also, get up off the rifle and move around a bit. Then get back on it and rebuild your position for the next shot. Rinse and repeat. If you are subconsciously readjusting your position after the first shot, this could show that.

With a carbon fiber wrapped barrel, your rifle may recoil subtly differently than with the all steel JP barrel. You may be combating this and not realize it.

I usually break cheek weld and reposition every shot. I shoot, look at my chrony, write it down in my book and go back to shooting. Every time.

 

[Tim_WNC]

I'm a newer precision shooter, so forgive my ignorance. I was under the impression that a POI shift on cold bore is to be expected. Is that not correct?

And certainly some suppressors are prone to POI shift. I know my Omega causes zero POI/POA shift, but the AAC 762-SD is pretty significant.


Also...OP....are you swabbing or brushing the barrel between strings?

 

[Snuby642]

Are the gas systems different? Effecting the can or the muzzle threads different "length, shoulder?" On one brand?
This happens with skinny light weight factory barrels not normally with upgraded barrels.

One quick internet fix is shoot groups of six and lay your calipers on the flier.lol

Seriously I have a 1 shot per group problem with a bolt gun but it always the last shot.
Maybe it is me, anxious to complete a "nice group"?
Heat not much of a factor in subs slow fired.

How have you allowed another competant shooter have a go at it?

 

[Subwrx300]

I have an interesting and infururating phenomenon going on with my AR 10. More correctly it’s a DPMS style large frame AR. I have a JP upper and a DPMS lower. Anyway, I bought a Dracos barrel in 260 Rem to replace my JP 260 barrel. I had nothing but problems getting it to group. More specifically it would shoot the first shot high and group the next X number of shoots very nicely about 1 inch below. It shot very well except for that first shot. So well in fact that I went to great lengths to figure it out. The interesting thing is that it only happened when the barrel was cold. If I kept the barrel warm by shooting another group within a minute or two they all grouped very well. If I waited 5 min or so, then I was back to 1 high and the rest 1 inch lower. This was repeatable through powder charge increases when shooting a ladder test. This was with 130 ELDs and H4350. I also shot 123 ELDs and got the same result except closer to 2 inches between the first and the rest of the shots. Talked to Dracos many times and tried many things, they all yielded the same results. So Dracos sends me a new 260 barrel. Same thing. I even think that maybe my JP receiver is warped so I build a whole new rifle out of Aero parts and get the same result. I also tried unsupressed, but all it changed was the orientation of the first bullet to the rest. Finally Dracos takes back my second 260Rem barrel and sends me 6.5 Creedmoor. Same result. I’m handloading mostly, but have tried factory ammo with the same result. Been working on this for over a year. I keep my hair cut short or I would have pulled it all out by now. Any thoughts on this?

So I have a Dracos 6.5CM barrel. I've read a few others have had an issue similar to yours though. My sample of two barrels doesn't do what you described. However, it does start to double group after 8-10 consecutive shots.

I think it's one of two issues (possibly both):

1. Before you shoot your first group, forcibly flex the barrel up and down by hand inside handguard. Make your last movement a downward push. Shoot your group. If this solves or changes first round POI, check your gastube isn't binding in the upper passthrough or barrel nut. This happened to me (result of another stupid idea to bed the barrel to the action).
2. If above doesn't change POI, issue is likely with construction of barrel: the barrel, sleeve and end cap are three separate pieces pressed together. If the inner barrel is aligned top/bottom after it cools, it will likely "kick" during shot and throw high/low left right. Subsequent shots do not exhibit this because the barrel has been "relieved" of stress for a moment and can center or "free-float" inside the shroud and end cap. Unfortunately, I don't see a way to fix this easily; it's an artifact of the design and tolerances.

I'm going to shoot you a PM. Give me a call and I can chat with you about what I've tried and experienced to resolve similar issue.

Good luck!

 

[Coyote Kev]

I'm a newer precision shooter, so forgive my ignorance. I was under the impression that a POI shift on cold bore is to be expected. Is that not correct?

And certainly some suppressors are prone to POI shift. I know my Omega causes zero POI/POA shift, but the AAC 762-SD is pretty significant.


Also...OP....are you swabbing or brushing the barrel between strings?

No not swabbing. Just wait a few minutes and shoot again. Cold bore poi shift is not acceptable to me. At least not 1-2 MOA. Especially with a Dracos barrel. Their whole premise is “cold bore shot every time”. This also occurs without the suppressor. The orientation of the first to the rest is all that changes.
The fact that I’m now witnessing this in an entirely different barrel except opposite orientation make me wonder if the problem does lie between my ears.

 

[oldfatguy]

You might want to have someone video your shooting. Watching yourself in slo-mo could tell you what is going on.

OFG

 

[Subwrx300]

No not swabbing. Just wait a few minutes and shoot again. Cold bore poi shift is not acceptable to me. At least not 1-2 MOA. Especially with a Dracos barrel. Their whole premise is “cold bore shot every time”. This also occurs without the suppressor. The orientation of the first to the rest is all that changes.
The fact that I’m now witnessing this in an entirely different barrel except opposite orientation make me wonder if the problem does lie between my ears.

Ironically, I've had two of these and both are easily, handsdown the most consistent cold bore shooting barrels I've owned, eclipsing my bolt gun even.

Both barrels have put .2 and .3" cold bore groups together more often than not. They did open up to .6 or so after warm but stayed sub minute consistently.

Just goes to show that two people can get same product and get very different ends of the experience spectrum.

 

[CaptNemo]

Has anyone else shot the rifle with similar results - the first round flier?
Are you letting the bolt run forward on the first round of the string with bolt stop vs. riding the charging handle during the loading cycle ?
Have you tried FGMM to eliminate the ammo as a variable?

 

[Rocketvapor]

Someone mentioned last round flier. I get that.
On the odd chance I have a really great 4 shot group, number 5 will open it up.
OR 9 great shots knowing I'm taking 10.
That IS between the ears.

 

[Diver160651]

Sorry if this has been mentioned before...

But dry fire a bunch before you touch a live round. Once all your breathing feels good, your cross hairs stay perfectly on target try repeating with live rounds.

 

[bfoosh006]

Is the barrel glued / Loctite'd into the upper ?

Has the upper receiver face been lapped or trued.

Your cool down sounds an awful lot like a oven cooling down, and the "tink" sound from metal on metal contact shifting while cooling.

 

[Subwrx300]

Sorry if this has been mentioned before...

But dry fire a bunch before you touch a live round. Once all your breathing feels good, your cross hairs stay perfectly on target try repeating with live rounds.

I owned a Dracos (two actually) and I don't think it's the Ops fault. The way their barrels are built, it's basically barrel inside two sleeves: one for the first half, gas block and a second sleeve from block to muzzle. The muzzle of the barrel is shouldered such that it just fits through a small opening in an aluminum end cap, pinning all the sleeves together.

Because of this tight tolerance and fill material inside the sleeve, it can put a *slight* shift in the muzzle as the barrel sits cold. Once fired, it snaps into a stress free position (like shocking a rusted bolt free with a hammer blow) and subsequent rounds hit normal POI.

But as the barrel cools, it will relax back to it's initial state with slight pressure on the barrel.

Mine did something similar but would produce repeatable double groups after warming up 5-10 rounds. Not just occasionally either, I fired 8 double groups (2touching and 3 touching all at 12 and 6 o'clock) measuring -+1". Put factory barrel on and split groups disappeared.

 

[blcouch]

I’m far less of an expert than most here but I had an idea. It may be garbage or it may be very insightful.

Make every group a ‘first round’ group.

What I mean is fire a fouling shot at the beginning of your session ( or have the rifle in whatever condition it is usually in when you arrive at your shooting position) and let it cool. Then, on different targets or the same targets, using the same aiming point, fire one round. Let the rifle sit how ever long to “cool”. Fire another round. Let sit. Repeat. If it’s a first round issue, every round should go high the same corresponding amount. That would be the most scientific way I could think of to see if it’s truly a first round issue with the gun or with me, i.e. make every group a first round group.

I’ve read about most people having a warm barrel zero and discounting every first round of the day and other people having a cold bore zero by letting the rifle cool completely between shots. I guess it depends on your intended use/doctrine.

Maybe Rule #3 applies: Accept it (and document the shift) and move on.

 

[Diver160651]

I’m far less of an expert than most here but I had an idea. It may be garbage or it may be very insightful.

Make every group a ‘first round’ group.

What I mean is fire a fouling shot at the beginning of your session ( or have the rifle in whatever condition it is usually in when you arrive at your shooting position) and let it cool. Then, on different targets or the same targets, using the same aiming point, fire one round. Let the rifle sit how ever long to “cool”. Fire another round. Let sit. Repeat. If it’s a first round issue, every round should go high the same corresponding amount. That would be the most scientific way I could think of to see if it’s truly a first round issue with the gun or with me, i.e. make every group a first round group.

I’ve read about most people having a warm barrel zero and discounting every first round of the day and other people having a cold bore zero by letting the rifle cool completely between shots. I guess it depends on your intended use/doctrine.

Maybe Rule #3 applies: Accept it (and document the shift) and move on.

The barrel thing seems to make sence till you see that all of his groups have different POI. Maybe there a bit of both. Even shooting a ladder I don’t get huge offsets like that.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Think back. Did you have problems with the JP260 barrel? Is the same person installing all these replacement barrels? I'm having a hard time thinking it is the barrels. Easy check head space problem rather than replicate the problem with live fire. It will show up with a set of go, no go, and field gauge. Closing on the go and no go but not closing on the field gauge. Look carefully at the spent brass on the cold shots and compare to the rest of the group's brass. The problem cold shot brass may be showing an increase in pressure.

 

[SupressYourself]

Let me shoot that sumbich.
Or better yet, switch me rifles for a few weeks. That would be the best way to see if the problem follows the shooter.

 

[Coyote Kev]

Ok so those targets weren’t perfect examples of a scientific process. There were more of a few things going on on those targets to check different things like use of an expander ball or not. They were not nessicarily for diagnosis, just for a visual. They were all I had pics of right now as I am away from my loading data books.

I think that Subwrx300 has an excellent point about the sleeves and stress points. Additional to that, there is no shoulder on the end of the barrel core to mate a muzzle device to. So when you screw on a suppressor you are pinning 4 different things together. The barrel core, aluminum sleeve end cap, barrel wrap media, and suppressor. Hard to believe heating these components wouldn’t change stresses on the barrel and thus harmonics. I think Dracos is really close to something great, but not quite there. The “hot” mode of all the barrels I’ve shot were unreal accurate. I just can’t live with the first shot.

 

[Coyote Kev]

Think back. Did you have problems with the JP260 barrel? Is the same person installing all these replacement barrels? I'm having a hard time thinking it is the barrels. Easy check head space problem rather than replicate the problem with live fire. It will show up with a set of go, no go, and field gauge. Closing on the go and no go but not closing on the field gauge. Look carefully at the spent brass on the cold shots and compare to the rest of the group's brass. The problem cold shot brass may be showing an increase in pressure.

I installed all the barrels. I admit I have used no headspace gauges. Thanks for the advice.

 

[Coyote Kev]

The “make a first shot cold bore group” actually works. Like I said you can set your watch to it. I can’t live with shooting a fouler “heater” cause this rifle ain’t no range queen. This is a coyote killing machine. I have high expectations of my coyote rifle and 1-2 MOA between first on second shot is not acceptable. I’ve killed 50+ coyotes a year for 6 years straight and I take my equipment very seriously. May sound dumb but I don’t want to have to think about wether my barrel is warm or not and how that affects my dialing when I have warm target at longer range. And these situations do come up more often than you think. 1-2 MOA off on a coyote at 400 yards is a flat out miss. I can live with misses due to operator error but not equipment error.

 

[Coyote Kev]

Has anyone else shot the rifle with similar results - the first round flier?
Are you letting the bolt run forward on the first round of the string with bolt stop vs. riding the charging handle during the loading cycle ?
Have you tried FGMM to eliminate the ammo as a variable?

I’ve tried loading a round every way possible. I have used factory ammo. What the hell is FGMM?

 

[The DFC]

Federal Gold Medal Match

 

[Coyote Kev]

 

[Coyote Kev]

Tear in the lower right is from dipshits leaving the board full of staples.

 

[CJS-6.5]

View attachment 6991928

That is totally unacceptable. Different barrel time...sucks man.

 

[ballistic1]

So asumming you pulled the JP solely for weight cutting..

How does the JP bbl perform? Does it group well?

 

[Coyote Kev]

Nope. Bought the JP used and have put a lot of rounds through it. No idea the round count. Over 3k. It's just on it's way out. Shoots well at times. Seems to do better when clean. It was a consistent 0.5 MOA barrel. This whole project was to be the barrel of my future. Weight doesn't mean much to me. My rifle is heavy as hell and I like it. Accuracy is my main concern.

 

[Coyote Kev]

Curious when did you sell your Dracos? I ask because this thread started Monday, so if you no longer have the barrel, maybe a good time to post that you no longer have it so that guys don't keep posting about fixes for a barrel you don't own.

Just my two cents.

Maybe true. However the idea is I now have a Proof barrel doing the same thing but opposite orientation. Also, I wanted to hear others experiences with the same barrel or different barrels that do the same thing. Rest assured, all of our Snipers Hide friends that are sharing their wisdom are not doing so in vain.

 

[ballistic1]

So if weight is of no concern, why not buy another JP bbl and your First round flyer problem
goes away..

 

[SupressYourself]

I had trouble with 1 round fliers with my Dracos as well, but it was not always the first shot and not always in the same direction. Here's a prime example during a seating depth test:

I got one of those accu-wedge things to take the play out of the receivers, used a shim to take the play out of the adjustable butt stock, and worked on my form.
While it's still not perfect, here's a later target, same rifle, bullet, and powder:

 

[Subwrx300]

Maybe true. However the idea is I now have a Proof barrel doing the same thing but opposite orientation. Also, I wanted to hear others experiences with the same barrel or different barrels that do the same thing. Rest assured, all of our Snipers Hide friends that are sharing their wisdom are not doing so in vain.

I somehow missed that bit of info... Thank you for clarifying. I'll remove my other post so we can carry on!

 

[Coyote Kev]

So if weight is of no concern, why not buy another JP bbl and your First round flyer problem
goes away..

Cause I wanted to try the newest latest and greatest. At least according to Dracos. The promise of extraordinary barrel life and accuracy got me. The JP is/Was accurate but was one squirrelly bitch to load for. Also, you ever price a JP barrel? Damn near as much as a Dracos or a Proof and doesn't have any cool tech. Just plain old stainless steel.