2 lug vs 3 lug action bolt lift

[LC 6.5 Shooter]

I see people running their bolts on videos and it looks like they are barely lifting on the bolt knob to run the bolt. Like barely flipping their fingers up. Is it because they are 2 lug actions or just designed better? My Curtis Axiom 3 lug action is not hard to lift but definitely doesnt look as easy as some videos.

 

[021411]

I have an Axiom as well and did some training that incorporated PRS stuff over the weekend. I watched the videos of my drills and it seemed effortless. I mean it’s not hard at all to lift the bolt as you know but seemed even lighter on video.

 

[hlee]

My understanding is that in a cock-on-open action, 3-lug bolts will have somewhat heavier throws than 2-lug bolts due to the reduced angle of rotation of the bolt. That said, it's probably a combination of shooters that are intimately familiar with their rifles and actions tuned beyond what many of us are shooting.

I've seen some guys running rifles at the local match where the bolts appear to effortlessly open and close. Like, spooky smooth.

 

[morganlamprecht]

more technique than bolt lift...AIs have a heavier bolt lift than most people like...mine is for sure heavier than my impact, but its still effortless and the rifle stays on target with the right technique

 

[hlee]

I have an Axiom as well and did some training that incorporated PRS stuff over the weekend. I watched the videos of my drills and it seemed effortless. I mean it’s not hard at all to lift the bolt as you know but seemed even lighter on video.

That's a really interesting perspective. When on the gun and under the clock, everything seems more difficult. Maybe it's mostly perspective (and not reality) that makes these actions look so spooky smooth. Then again, I'm shooting an RPR so I know most are smoother by comparison.

 

[XLR308]

I don't have an abundance of experience with custom actions but have cycled the bolt on several types including a Defiance deviant that was well broken in on an F-Open rifle I had the pleasure of shooting.
I currently own two Kelbly Atlas Tac actions one of them has only been cycled a couple hundred times and it almost feels effortless to me like it has allready been cocked.
They are the smoothest I have felt or owned and I'm sure will get better with use but there are many more out there I've never laid a finger on.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

What @morganlamprecht said. I'm running a Tempest, and unless I get lazy or sloppy you can't see my rifle twitch one bit on video when I run the bolt. Technique is a big part of it, and my action is coming up on 8,000 rounds of live fire on it (close to 7k on the standard bolt, 1k on the SAUM bolt) with far more than that in dry fire cycles, so it's smooth as hell to run.

 

[generalzip]

I've run both a Curtis Axiom and Vector and Impacts. I prefer the lighter 90 degree bolt lift for 2 reasons:

1. The gun moves a bit less with the lighter bolt lift.
2. I can cycle both just as fast. Really just a matter of practicing with it. I actually find the slower I run the action the less I rush the shot. I think it's just a subconscious thing where if I move slowly I think slowly and take my time and focus on each shot. The 90 degree throws are a bit easier to run really slow because of the lighter lift.

My advice is to pick one and just practice with it. You will get very fast with either. Each action has a different feel. I'd advise against buying a bunch of different types of actions. I have 2 comp guns and 1 223 trainer and they are all Impact Actions for consistency.

This is total personal preference and I think specific to your shooting style and how you like to run the bolt. They both will work great for competition. That said I use 60 degree throw on my night hunting rigs to give more clearance for the bulky thermal/NV scopes.

Morgan is spot on that either will work equally well ultimately with the proper technique.

 

[samb300]

That's a really interesting perspective. When on the gun and under the clock, everything seems more difficult. Maybe it's mostly perspective (and not reality) that makes these actions look so spooky smooth. Then again, I'm shooting an RPR so I know most are smoother by comparison.

I actually find it to be the opposite. When I'm on the clock, I'm so focused on my strategy, reticle, fundamentals, follow-through, etc, that I don't really even notice that I'm cycling the bolt, let alone how stiff it is. It's only when I'm farting around at home and paying direct attention to the bolt lift that I can tell. (This is with a factory AX, so like mentioned above it's likely stiffer than most, though I would argue it's also smoother as well).

 

[Fig]

I shoot an Axiom. It's the only 60 deg I own, and I now prefer it. It was slick new, but it's aging to perfection. I pretty much slap it open handed and can jack a cartridge almost as fast as an auto without thinking about it or moving the rifle. I'm THAT good! LOL.

Shooting a string trying to catch a condition is more F-Class than tactical steel. I don't see a ton of advantage in trying to make your action technique faster. It's more like a draw where smooth is fast, so just make sure it's smooth and don't worry about speed. What do you think you'll gain? A full second? Two? While a heavy/rough action would be a hindrance, I doubt 2 lug vs 3 lug, 60 vs 90 makes or breaks any stage.

The dominance of Glocks in IDPA with their shit, DA, Striker triggers is pretty much proof that what's most important is that you are comfortable with your equipment to the point it feels right. If your throw feels wrong then there is something you need to address. Familiarity with your equipment is the key.

Now when I shoot a 90 deg throw if feels huge, but if I started shooting it I'm sure it would start to feel right in short order. There are going to be lots of opinions, but no "right" ones.

 

[021411]

Don’t critique my technique. I’m not a pro. Here’s a vid of me over the weekend. In reality I was running the bolt slow but looked a little faster on video.

 

[RyanM]

If you look at @morganlamprecht video he also "levers" the bolt open (or at least looks like it so please correct me if I am wrong Morgan). By lever I mean he puts his thumb hear the tang area and flips the bolt open with is index/middle finger. In my mind these offsetting forces, up on the bolt but down on the tang area, cancel each other out and do not unsettle the rifle.

I ran an AI for awhile and now run Defiance actions. The AI does have a heavier bolt lift, and I even had a Cadex 4 Lug for a review, but I don't really think you can tell when you are actually shooting. Maybe if you are hanging out in your mom's basement slowly cycling each action you can tell the difference.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

If you look at @morganlamprecht video he also "levers" the bolt open (or at least looks like it so please correct me if I am wrong Morgan). By lever I mean he puts his thumb hear the tang area and flips the bolt open with is index/middle finger. In my mind these offsetting forces, up on the bolt but down on the tang area, cancel each other out and do not unsettle the rifle.

I ran an AI for awhile and now run Defiance actions. The AI does have a heavier bolt lift, and I even had a Cadex 4 Lug for a review, but I don't really think you can tell when you are actually shooting. Maybe if you are hanging out in your mom's basement slowly cycling each action you can tell the difference.

That's what I do with my 22LR, 2lug 223 trainer, and my Tempest. In the case of the Tempest and 223, I have an adjustable thumb rest on the side of my chassis that makes it even easier to do it, as my thumb is already in place on the rest.

 

[morganlamprecht]

yea, thats how i run every action...90* is a little "different" for me because my hand has to rotate up a little further...its easier for me with a 60

 

[RyanM]

yea, thats how i run every action...90* is a little "different" for me because my hand has to rotate up a little further

Funny what you get used to.

When I had the cadex 4 lug it felt very alien to me.

 

[luv2hunt6]

I just got into PRS competitions and I'm running a Tempest. I also have the same basic setup with a 90 degree Templar action that my wife shoots. When shooting one right after the other I can't really tell a difference in the cycling time when watching the videos. Like what has been stated above I think it's best to pick the action you like the best and cycle it, a lot! The more you run it the slicker the action will become and the more efficient your movements will become.

 

[Kmarsh1966]

Don’t critique my technique. I’m not a pro. Here’s a vid of me over the weekend. In reality I was running the bolt slow but looked a little faster on video.

Sean Little is a great instructor

 

[M338]

That's what I do with my 22LR, 2lug 223 trainer, and my Tempest. In the case of the Tempest and 223, I have an adjustable thumb rest on the side of my chassis that makes it even easier to do it, as my thumb is already in place on the rest.

Same way I run mine!
My tempest is actually way lighter on open than my Defiance.

 

[Jcarpenter223]

Sorry for the newbie question, trying to learn things about bolt actions.

Is the only real percieved advantage of a 3 lug is the short throw?

 

[spife7980]

Sorry for the newbie question, trying to learn things about bolt actions.

Is the only real percieved advantage of a 3 lug is the short throw?

Yep, 60 degrees of rotation vs 90 degrees. 60 can keep the handle down lower to keep your fingers away from hitting your scope, and it’s less travel distance. 90 does the same amount of work over a wider distance so it will spread the force necessary out thinner so bolt lift will feel easier. Give a pinch here, take a pinch there. Ends up as personal preference.

 

[Jcarpenter223]

Yep, 60 degrees of rotation vs 90 degrees. 60 can keep the handle down lower to keep your fingers away from hitting your scope, and it’s less travel distance. 90 does the same amount of work over a wider distance so it will spread the force necessary out thinner so bolt lift will feel easier. Give a pinch here, take a pinch there. Ends up as personal preference.

Thats kind if what i figured. Not really going to be able to tell one vs the other on the clock during a match.

 

[fastfwd]

Is the only real percieved advantage of a 3 lug is the short throw?

A three-lug doesn't have to require less bolt rotation than a two-lug. Tikka's two-lug T3x action, for example, has a shorter throw (70 degrees) than ARC's three-lug Nucleus action (72 degrees).

 

[021411]

Thats kind if what i figured. Not really going to be able to tell one vs the other on the clock during a match.

This is just me but I can tell. This afternoon was working bolts on two actions under time drying firing as if I was shooting a barricade stage.. One 60 and one 90 degree. Switching back and forth I was holy shit. I'm spoiled by my Axiom. Once I got the 90 degree down I got a little quicker. I just had to pay more attention when I grabbed the 90 deg bolt to avoid smacking by hand. The 60 is obviously move forgiving on how you grab the bolt handle.

 

[FUNCTIONAL]

The 60degree ones like the tempest and badger run AW mags much more reliably too.