2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

[Little Yoshi]

Stumbled onto a website and saw this and, as a new shooter, just trying to grasp the concept because I have to adjust DOPE based on bullet weight:

"...<shooter 1> was shooting HSM 175gr .308 and <shooter 2> utilizing Federal Gold Match 168gr .308 in their sniper rifles. These shooters were using completely different brands and grains of ammunition, but both held the exact same DOPE out to 1375yds. The DOPE developed over the weeklong course of shooting, resulted without the use of a holdover, was 60 MOA dialed with a 20 inch barrel at 1200yds. Typically, a Remington 700 with a 24inch barrel develops DOPE averaging 75 MOA at this distance, and only if you have that extra elevation on the top end to dial without hitting mechanical limits of the scope.

The ability to shoot that distance without a use of a holdover and keep the center crosshair on target is an additional asset ... A technical facet and original design is a proprietary procedure in which the barrel and action are threaded and coupled with a huge amount of torque that would destroy a standard barreled action. This also eliminates the cold bore shots, making they a thing of the past. Most shooters would laugh at the prospect of identical rifles shooting the same DOPE with different ammunition... This can only be explained by the amazing quality and precision machining built into the hand-made rifles."

Thoughts?

 

[rrflyer]

Re: 2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

168GN FGMM at 1375 yards?

Using the same dope for any ammo?


Sounds like a magic rifle.

 

[former naval person]

Re: 2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

I think we've found a customer for that swamp land down in Florida.

 

[Swift]

Re: 2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

Yeah that's a big negative, ghostrider. Even if you took two identical rifles, same caliber, with consecutive serial numbers, and identical ammo from the same lot, the real world dope will still have slight variances. When manufacturing for mass production, you don't have the luxury of maintaining tight and strict tolerances. Every rifle is unique in this way so every rifle will shoot just a little bit different. This is why a ballistics computer should be your guide, not your Bible. Your dope card that you build to that specific rifle in the field is your Bible.

Almost reminds me of a scene from Full Metal Jacket..."This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine."

 

[CowboyBart]

Re: 2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

I would say shear coincidence ie: luck.
What are you saying about a huge amount of torque put on the barrels while assembling??

 

[Tangodown911]

Re: 2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CowboyBart</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would say shear coincidence ie: luck.
What are you saying about a huge amount of torque put on the barrels while assembling??

</div></div>

+1?????
what does the barrel torque have to do with the rest of the story?

 

[Danley]

Re: 2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

One word ... MYTHICAL !

 

[RTS]

Re: 2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

Gotta call BS on this one. Even if you somehow matched initial velocities to get similar short range dope (maybe there's a reason DOPE was capitalized... *grins*), the different BCs (ballistic coefficients) of the projectiles would mean one would slow faster over distance and affect the impact point - specifically, the 168gr probably has a lower BC that means it would bleed off velocity faster than the 175gr.

IIRC, the 168gr Federal Gold Medal Match uses the Sierra Match King, and I'm almost positive it'd be subsonic at that distance, making accurate shots even less likely.

As a new shooter, do yourself a favor and don't believe everything you read on some website. If something doesn't sound right, it probably isn't. As a new shooter myself, this site is one of the best I've found to gather good information and is full of people that will help answer your questions. Best of luck.

 

[JeffP40]

Re: 2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

I'm afraid to ask of the website.

 

[Little Yoshi]

Re: 2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RTS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As a new shooter, do yourself a favor and don't believe everything you read on some website. If something doesn't sound right, it probably isn't. As a new shooter myself, this site is one of the best I've found to gather good information and is full of people that will help answer your questions. Best of luck. </div></div>

That's why I posted, sounded a bit "too good to be true".

But, yeah, this website is great and I get top-notch info here.

 

[Little Yoshi]

Re: 2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tango__Down</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what does the barrel torque have to do with the rest of the story? </div></div>

Don't know. It was part of the write up, so I included it.

 

[TEAMSENDIT]

Re: 2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

complete crap i have actually seen the 168gr fgmm destabilize at 1000yds for one and hit the target sideways. nevermind the fact the rest of the garbage he spewed out of his mouth is complete shit also.

 

[MinorDamage]

Re: 2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Team-Send-It!!!</div><div class="ubbcode-body">complete crap i have actually seen the 168gr fgmm destabilize at 1000yds for one and hit the target sideways. nevermind the fact the rest of the garbage he spewed out of his mouth is complete shit also. </div></div>

I googled the passage and the guy who wrote it claims to be a former Scout Sniper. Any way to substantiate this? I just cannot believe that one would ever believe such nonsense.

Josh

 

[Chiller]

Re: 2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

awe.....Troll hunting is fun......give up the website......

 

[762frmafr]

Re: 2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

http://www.lennybolton.com/an-encounter-with-a-cottonmouth-venom-tactical-2011-05

https://www.venomtactical.com/category/venom-tactical-reviews

 

[MinorDamage]

Re: 2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

This is the link off lennybolton.com, but the review is about Venom Tactical. Author is listed at the bottom.

Link

Josh

 

[762frmafr]

Re: 2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I googled the passage and the guy who wrote it claims to be a former Scout Sniper. Any way to substantiate this? I just cannot believe that one would ever believe such nonsense.

Josh </div></div>

I think Frank has ways of checking this kind of stuff out.

 

[MinorDamage]

Re: 2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 762frmafr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I googled the passage and the guy who wrote it claims to be a former Scout Sniper. Any way to substantiate this? I just cannot believe that one would ever believe such nonsense.

Josh </div></div>

I think Frank has ways of checking this kind of stuff out. </div></div>

That's what I figure. Someone out there has the info.

Josh

 

[Swift]

Re: 2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

Even on the interwebs......no one is safe.

 

[Wild_Bill]

Re: 2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

This is crap if you read what the actions are they are trued Remington actions how could they destroy a standard action but not his trued action by him working on them does he change tyhe material?

Just dont believe all the crap you see around.

 

[Jcas2012]

Re: 2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

The answer is simple....wizards.

 

[Pettorsson]

Re: 2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

Hey Gang,

Was just forwarded this from a buddy of mine, Just hear to answer any questions that you fellas may have about me or the information in the article I wrote, which I gathered at an actual range with targets and stuff.

 

[MinorDamage]

Re: 2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

Let me first off state that I assume you are trolling, but it would be nice if you would enlighten us on the circumstances and how you defied the laws of physics.

Josh

 

[joegoeken_33]

Re: 2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

bro your probably in your moms basement writing this crap while me and rob were in iraq and th phillippines doing the work that keeps guys like you cutting on people on the internet

 

[joegoeken_33]

Re: 2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

Rob is an expert in everything he puts forth and has the credentials to back it up whil most of you guys reading this have only your on little reaserch you did in your moms basement rob has been there and done that. We served together with 2/6 in both OIF and OEF respectivly Rob has always been a student of the trade and as a teacher i can only imagine he would be the one man all you guys might actually be able to learn something from. read the artical again if you really have so little knowledge of shooting that you cant process the information then maybe you should get out and enlist in probably the army cause form what i have read most of you boys probably could'nt make the cut in the Marines. Get a little trigger time in then you can appericate when an expert tries to impart some knowledge on you. Joe Goeken P.S. Hey rob I'm looking forward to the next time we can get on teh range or better yet on some bucks up here is Nor Cal.

 

[Austan]

Re: 2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

Can one of you experts tell me how fast a 168 has to go to get to 1375 stabilized?

 

[joegoeken_33]

Re: 2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

Each man had his dope....... each man had his Ammo...... niether had to use a hold over at 1375..... what is the issue here guys? im pretty surre he didnt say they were swaping ammo and keeping everything the same read the artical and use critical thinking...... really this is killing me.

 

[KNIGHT11B4]

Re: 2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Austan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can one of you experts tell me how fast a 168 has to go to get to 1375 stabilized?
</div></div>

Warp speed.

OP- You are lost in the sauce... and the sauce is deep.

 

[dieselglock]

Re: 2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wild_Bill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is crap if you read what the actions are they are trued Remington actions how could they destroy a standard action but not his trued action by him working on them does he change tyhe material?

Just dont believe all the crap you see around.

</div></div>

Not all threads are created equal. The Spiralock threading system used, allows for a much larger torque value to be used in the receiver to barrel union. The standard Remington receiver threads are of the standard 60 degree variety.

Lenny Bolton

 

[sinister]

Re: 2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally Posted By: Austan
Can one of you experts tell me how fast a 168 has to go to get to 1375 stabilized?</div></div>

About 3150 fps to stay supersonic if you believe JBM (even at 4200 feet at 59F).

You'd have to push it from some type of 300 Magnum.

Ain't gonna happen with FGMM unless the barrel's three or four feet long.

 

[rossaz]

Re: 2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

I wonder how many of you actually get out and shoot on actual ranges with actual ammunition and have actual data on your actual rifle, not some theoretical bullshit you read in some thread in some forum in your mothers basement on your computer that your parents bought... Mr. Pettorsson is absolutely legit and has put his money where his mouth is both operationally as a Scout Sniper in the USMC and as an instructor and industry professional following his service.

 

[Dustin Morris]

Re: 2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

What twist barrel are you using?

Dustin

 

[dieselglock]

Re: 2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SevenBat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What twist barrel are you using?

Dustin </div></div>

11.31

Lenny Bolton

 

[Austan]

Re: 2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

How does changing the action threads increase the velocity of factory ammo?

 

[Dustin Morris]

Re: 2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

Thanks

Dustin

 

[MinorDamage]

Re: 2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: joegoeken</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Each man had his dope....... each man had his Ammo...... niether had to use a hold over at 1375..... what is the issue here guys? im pretty surre he didnt say they were swaping ammo and keeping everything the same read the artical and use critical thinking...... really this is killing me. </div></div>

Joe,

What the article reads as to me is this:

1. You have two different rifles
2. You have two types of ammo
3. You are using the EXACT same dope for both 168 and 175 grain loads.

To me (and everyone else in this thread) this means that you found that the 168s out of Rifle 1 dropped and drifted EXACTLY the same as the 175s out of Rifle 2 out to 1375.

Now, if you meant that you shot the 168s out of rifle 1 and found that they matched the dope for the 168s out of rifle 2 then it makes sense, although I do find it suspect that you are getting the 168 SMK stable out to 1375. That would mean excessively high altitudes as men that are WAY smarter than you and I have analyzed the bullet (on the range) and found it to be extremely unstable transonically.

If the above is the case then the article is poorly written because, as the article is written, it says that you shot 168s exclusively out of rifle 1 and 175s exclusively out of rifle 2 and were using the same dope card for both rifles. There is no possible way this is true as it is written in the article.

Now, as a non-scout sniper I guess you will just have to take my questioning with a grain of salt. I am just trying to clarify. There are plenty of actual scout snipers on here to throw any other BS flags.

Josh

 

[bachelorjack]

Re: 2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

What stickers do you have on it?

I've heard the right stickers impart special attributes.

Like +50 Velocity, +100 Cool, +30 Stealth.....

Can't be the only one who's heard of this. Boltripper?....

 

[ArmaHeavy]

Re: 2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

It's the exact same for cars!

 

[dieselglock]

Re: 2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rossaz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wonder how many of you actually get out and shoot on actual ranges with actual ammunition and have actual data on your actual rifle, not some theoretical bullshit you read in some thread in some forum in your mothers basement on your computer that your parents bought... Mr. Pettorsson is absolutely legit and has put his money where his mouth is both operationally as a Scout Sniper in the USMC and as an instructor and industry professional following his service. </div></div>

Well said. Everybody needs to get data on there own equipment and test any theories they may have themselves. If you hear something that you are not sure of, test it yourself. You may be surprised with what you will find.

As for Mr. Pettorsson. I can say he is one of the most knowledgeable sniper instructors in the industry. I am also very thankful for his service to our country.

Lenny Bolton

 

[dieselglock]

Re: 2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Austan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How does changing the action threads increase the velocity of factory ammo? </div></div>

Who said it does. The barrel to action union is important for shot to shot consistency IMO.

Lenny Bolton

 

[Tyler Kemp]

Re: 2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

This is gay.

 

[MinorDamage]

Re: 2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

Lenny,

Can you read my post above and clarify my questions? I want to make sure I am not misreading the article.

Josh

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: 2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The ability to shoot that distance without a use of a holdover and keep the center crosshair on target is an additional asset the Cottonmouth brings to the table. A technical facet and original design built into the Cottonmouth is a proprietary procedure in which the barrel and action are threaded and coupled with a huge amount of torque that would destroy a standard barreled action. This also eliminates the cold bore shots, making they a thing of the past. Most shooters would laugh at the prospect of identical rifles shooting the same DOPE with different ammunition, but this is indeed the case with these Venom Tactical custom sniper rifles. This can only be explained by the amazing quality and precision machining built into the hand-made rifles from Venom Tactical, thanks to the skills of Lenny Bolton.
</div></div>

snake oil.

AS to the newly registered schills trolling for this outfit-I do get out and shoot, and know my DOPE for my rifles.
I also know that anyone saying they are hitting 1375 with 168 FGMM accurately is full of shit. I respect men's service, but do not grant it a pass to use it as a tool to separate a fool from his money, as is obviously being attempted here.

I know plenty of shooters in Venom Tactical's AO, but have never heard of them. Perhaps their whole yarn is spun to sway some brass to buy their rifles, but that shit don't float with anyone that has shot a 308 at distance.

Screwing the tube on tighter in a proprietary manner to gain an edge over the physics of internal and external ballistics if an utter crock of shit.

 

[Mike]

Re: 2 rifles (same make), 2 bullet weights, 1 DOPE

Reading this is like a 'tard circus. It's all of his personalities giving each other a circle jerk telling themselves how great he is.

What an idiot.