Suppressors 2023 Silencer Summit Results

[Zak Smith]

There has already been some discussion of this. Here are the results.

https://thunderbeastarms.com/sound/summit2023/

It is fully documented and should be self explanatory.

 

[E. Bryant]

And this is how one creates a proper open standard. Nice job, guys

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Wow, thats incredible. Very nice guys.

 

[Supersubes]

Crazy! Thanks boys!

 

[E. Bryant]

A few post-coffee thoughts:

1) I'm really digging the new proposed microphone location. For civilians, it seems much more meaningful than going 90° off the bore axis (a location in which one is unlikely to stand at a typical shooting range). I think this is a Really Big Deal.

2) Haven't yet fully bought into the Leq metric, but it exists and can be duplicated. Ultimately, I'm feeling that impulse is the way to go even if the units are a bit too nerdy for most users.

3) There's been some noise (no pun intended) around your use of indoor testing, so thanks for quantifying those effects. I'm of the opinion that this may actually come closer to representing real-world conditions better than quasi free space, because dang near every range that I frequent has multiple reflective surfaces (stall walls, overhead canopies, etc.).

Might have more once I dig into the data, but once again, kudos for your transparency.

 

[Zak Smith]

re, #1, Just to be clear, the 2m@225 mic position is not our proposal, but we had an opportunity to get a big dataset to help that argument along either way.

 

[FuhQ]

So, what I’m seeing with the .30 cal cans, it’s consistent with the PEW Science results… Top 3 are Magnus, Nomad-LT, and Hydrogen-L.

 

[AMGtuned]

I'll say it, so no one else has to......

Is there a reason the OCL cans weren't tested? And @AndrewKing and co. not having attended?

 

[Zak Smith]

Control-F Otter

 

[AMGtuned]

Control-F Otter

Control of the competition? Seems your goal was an open standard; that would mean exposing all avaliable in the field. No?

 

[Zak Smith]

It was shorthand for "search the page for the word Otter"

 

[AMGtuned]

It was shorthand for "search the page for the word Otter"

Sorry dude. I read the sheet early am, catching up on the thread now.

 

[AndrewKing]

I'll say it, so no one else has to......

Is there a reason the OCL cans weren't tested? And @AndrewKing and co. not having attended?

They were tested. We were 1st at muzzle and ear on 308 bolt action.

I’m extremely afraid of airplanes to the point I need to medicated (I wish I was kidding, if the lord wanted me to fly he’d have given me wings) If I can’t drive I ain’t going. But our suppressors were there.

 

[Supersubes]

They were tested. We were 1st at muzzle and ear on 308 bolt action.

I’m extremely afraid of airplanes to the point I need to medicated (I wish I was kidding, if the lord wanted me to fly he’d have given me wings) If I can’t drive I ain’t going. But our suppressors were there.

They did awesome, congrats!

 

[AMGtuned]

They were tested. We were 1st at muzzle and ear on 308 bolt action.

I’m extremely afraid of airplanes to the point I need to medicated (I wish I was kidding, if the lord wanted me to fly he’d have given me wings) If I can’t drive I ain’t going. But our suppressors were there.

Nice dude. I re-read the results and saw your cans in there. I originally caught the paragraph about the attendees, and that's when I didn't see Otter.

Super pumped for you dude. You had a lot of hurdles all the way through QT days. Glad to see your diligence has paid off

 

[Dave]

Congrats to Otter Creek. Looks like all that noise about the Magnus being the quietest 308 can ever was just that - noise. Beat by a can .18" less in diameter, no less!

 

[AndrewKing]

Congrats to Otter Creek. Looks like all that noise about the Magnus being the quietest 308 can ever was just that - noise. Beat by a can .18" less in diameter, no less!

Magnus is a great can. Splitting hairs by fractions of a dB is meh at a certain point. Realistically I’d call the top spots even. If you reran this 100 times I’d say sometimes magnus would win by a fraction and sometimes hydro would win by a fraction. This specific day though luck was on our side lol

Hydrogen wasn’t our quietest design from development though, it was our second best. We deemed the first too hard to produce and meet the sub $1000 price point we wanted to be at.
We’ve got more in the tank if ever needed.

Thanks guys

 

[FuhQ]

Magnus is a great can. Splitting hairs by fractions of a dB is meh at a certain point. Realistically I’d call the top spots even.
Hydrogen wasn’t our quietest design from development though, it was our second best. We deemed the first too hard to produce and meet the sub $1000 price point we wanted to be at.
We’ve got more in the tank if ever needed.

Thanks guys

Ok, I think I’m gonna need to purchase this super secret prototype, now that I know you’ve been holding out…

 

[jzerfoss]

I find the huxwrx flow 556 overall results interesting considering how many people have been raving about it. Also, the factor that can't be measured. Tone.... Differences in tone was something I would notice ROing matches and something most people wouldn't notice unless they heard a large number of cans in one day. When you're dealing with the top ultra quiet cans I think tone is a personal preference determining factor but unfortunately can't be measured. It can only be experienced in person.

 

[Bacarrat]

I find the huxwrx flow 556 overall results interesting considering how many people have been raving about it. Also, the factor that can't be measured. Tone.... Differences in tone was something I would notice ROing matches and something most people wouldn't notice unless they heard a large number of cans in one day. When you're dealing with the top ultra quiet cans I think tone is a personal preference determining factor but unfortunately can't be measured. It can only be experienced in person.

Huxwrks cans or just in general the flow through cans are not that quiet given how they are designed. It's not for max noise suppression but to give out less back pressure and some noise suppression.

 

[Zak Smith]

Magnus is a great can. Splitting hairs by fractions of a dB is meh at a certain point. Realistically I’d call the top spots even

I'll just echo that the Hydrogen L is a great can. So is the Nomad LT and Jolene and the Magnus. Depending on the criteria selected to sort by in the 308 section, they swap top positions by fractions of a dB. They also have different design trade-offs which is great for the consumer. I will note that if you need a can for your SBR'd 300 PRC, the Magnus will take it.

 

[Dave]

Yeah, I'm going to need one of these prototypes too....

 

[jzerfoss]

Huxwrks cans or just in general the flow through cans are not that quiet given how they are designed. It's not for max noise suppression but to give out less back pressure and some noise suppression.

I'm aware but there are plenty of people who are saying they sound amazing at SE because of the reduced backpressure. Many are touting the 556k is very quiet in general also. Comparing it to the better baffled cans in sound reduction. Looking at the SE data again there was a lot of ties in DB so it actually did ok.

 

[AndrewKing]

I'll just echo that the Hydrogen L is a great can. So is the Nomad LT and Jolene and the Magnus. Depending on the criteria selected to sort by in the 308 section, they swap top positions by fractions of a dB. They also have different design trade-offs which is great for the consumer. I will note that if you need a can for your SBR'd 300 PRC, the Magnus will take it.

Haha yes that’s exactly what I would expect would happen as far as swapping spots. Hydrogen can’t take that SBR magnum heat I’ve tried, magnus can keep all that I don’t want no part of it
I kaboomed a hydrogen after an afternoon of shooting on my 12” barrel 300 win mag.

 

[jzerfoss]

There has already been some discussion of this. Here are the results.

https://thunderbeastarms.com/sound/summit2023/

It is fully documented and should be self explanatory.

This is great data! Thank you for the effort. How often you think this will be updated? Yearly I'm guessing...

 

[Bacarrat]

I'm aware but there are plenty of people who are saying they sound amazing at SE because of the reduced backpressure. Many are touting the 556k is very quiet in general also. Comparing it to the better baffled cans in sound reduction. Looking at the SE data again there was a lot of ties in DB so it actually did ok.

I dunno, I heard the old OSS, now Huxwrks, cans and thought it was really loud for the size. Even other people I know who have shot the newer flow through cans always say it's louder than a can of comparable size. But then again, I really don't buy cans based on DB ratings. I buy based on what my needs are for. DB levels are somewhat low on that priority list of cans. I would consider the Huxworks if I was to buy a large frame AR. Since I know most of them run like shit when suppressed.

 

[jzerfoss]

I dunno, I heard the old OSS, now Huxwrks, cans and thought it was really loud for the size. Even other people I know who have shot the newer flow through cans always say it's louder than a can of comparable size. But then again, I really don't buy cans based on DB ratings. I buy based on what my needs are for. DB levels are somewhat low on that priority list of cans. I would consider the Huxworks if I was to buy a large frame AR. Since I know most of them run like shit when suppressed.

Justifying loudness of high flow cans for their back pressure benefits seems to be defeating the main purpose of a SOUND SUPPRESSOR. Sounds like you need to rediscover flashhiders. Zero back pressure and great flash reduction.... I get the high flow trend with ARs but it shouldn't be at the detriment of the main purpose of a can.

 

[Zak Smith]

This is great data! Thank you for the effort. How often you think this will be updated? Yearly I'm guessing...

Probably yearly. The limiter isn't doing the testing itself, it's getting all the manufacturers in the same place at the same time.

 

[kthomas]

Justifying loudness of high flow cans for their back pressure benefits seems to be defeating the main purpose of a SOUND SUPPRESSOR. Sounds like you need to rediscover flashhiders. Zero back pressure and great flash reduction.... I get the high flow trend with ARs but it shouldn't be at the detriment of the main purpose of a can.

I personally think the concussion reducing effects of a suppressor provide more comfort to the shooter than dB mitigation.

Shooting untuned ar-15's with high back pressure cans is not a fun experience. I personally would be willing to lose a few dB if it meant less gas in my face.

 

[kthomas]

And to bring this back on topic - great job @Zak Smith and team for doing this!

 

[Zak Smith]

I posted this to the arfcom thread, it might be of interest here too:

The port pop dB's can vary a large degree from AR to AR, even in the same barrel length, by just changing the gas port size. If you take an "overgassed" AR, it doesn't take much suppressing to get the muzzle down below the port noise. On the other hand, if you have an upper than as a longer gas system, a smaller port, and maybe tuned reciprocating parts, you can get away with a much more muzzle-suppressing can, and the maximum of (muzzle noise, port noise) can be a lot less than the overgassed upper, if you do things right. This is not, and was not meant to be, demonstrated in the Summit dataset, but it's easy to demonstrate through metering a few different config uppers with mics at ML and SE.

 

[jzerfoss]

I personally think the concussion reducing effects of a suppressor provide more comfort to the shooter than dB mitigation.

Shooting untuned ar-15's with high back pressure cans is not a fun experience. I personally would be willing to lose a few dB if it meant less gas in my face.

I can agree with this in the context of a few db loss.

 

[Todc]

Congrats to Otter Creek. Looks like all that noise about the Magnus being the quietest 308 can ever was just that - noise. Beat by a can .18" less in diameter, no less!

You obviously haven't shot a Magnus.

 

[jzerfoss]

You obviously haven't shot a Magnus.

Right.... OCL got the ML by less than a DB, TBAC got the 225 by less than a DB, OCL got the SE by 1.5DB which is supposed to imperceivable to the ear. Sound like damn near a tie. I'd be interested to hear a OCL Hydro L next to a TBAC Magnus to hear if there's a tone difference.

 

[AndrewKing]

Right.... OCL got the ML by less than a DB, TBAC got the 225 by less than a DB, OCL got the SE by 1.5DB which is supposed to imperceivable to the ear. Sound like damn near a tie. I'd be interested to hear a OCL Hydro L next to a TBAC Magnus to hear if there's a tone difference.

I doubt there would be to like 99.99% of people unless you have super hearing. I’ve heard them both and once you get so quiet they all sound the same to be honest.
Hydrogen isn’t made to compete with magnus, it’s $600 cheaper made to compete at a more budget oriented price point.

People think that I think OCL compares and competes with people like tbac and surefire but that was never the intent. We are going after the yhm, Rex budget market. If you’ve got the extra $600 laying around buy the magnus. For a guy working a regular blue collar job a $1600 (magnus) suppressor might not be practical, but a $950 (hydrogen L) might be.
That’s where I came from and that’s why I’m here

 

[SkyScrapin]

I'll just echo that the Hydrogen L is a great can. So is the Nomad LT and Jolene and the Magnus. Depending on the criteria selected to sort by in the 308 section, they swap top positions by fractions of a dB. They also have different design trade-offs which is great for the consumer. I will note that if you need a can for your SBR'd 300 PRC, the Magnus will take it.

Don't tempt.

 

[jzerfoss]

I doubt there would be to like 99.99% of people unless you have super hearing. I’ve heard them both and once you get so quiet they all sound the same to be honest.
Hydrogen isn’t made to compete with magnus, it’s $600 cheaper made to compete at a more budget oriented price point.

People think that I think OCL compares and competes with people like tbac and surefire but that was never the intent. We are going after the yhm, Rex budget market. If you’ve got the extra $600 laying around buy the magnus. For a guy working a regular blue collar job a $1600 (magnus) suppressor might not be practical, but a $950 (hydrogen L) might be.
That’s where I came from and that’s why I’m here

Well sound performance wise you are competing with TBAC which is amazing at your price point. If I'm being honest I got the Magnus because of a 50% off cert and their reputation is top tier in there QA/QC and customer service. I also have one of your OCM5s that should be out of jail soon and have been patiently waiting for your OCM30. OCM5 for a 16" 223 bolt gun and the OCM30 will be for a 16" 308 bolt gun which the mount/threads machined in the barrel. So I appreciate your budget mindedness and willingness to do odd ball stuff.

 

[carbonbased]

So, first off, hats off for testing your stuff along side your competitor’s cans. Secondly, I can’t compare cans because I’m a dumbass.

For the shooter’s ear, what metric do you suggest sorting by? Seems like maybe you are suggesting the “SE Leq dBA” column?

 

[Junco Grande]

Excellent information, great job, guys

 

[FuhQ]

You obviously haven't shot a Magnus.

I own a Magnus, Nomad-LT, and Hydrogen-L… They’re all 3 pretty comparable.

 

[TBACRAY]

The Magnus, Nomad-LT and Hydrogen L are all well below the sonic crack so the thing you hear is the crack.
We learned a lot during this testing. I look forward to seeing what you guys can come up with

 

[E. Bryant]

Also, the factor that can't be measured. Tone....

It's pretty easy to measure - just run an FFT analysis on the pressure data. The bigger issue is that different people have different opinions on what frequencies are most pleasing, and that has much to do with pre-existing damage (the ear/brain tend to find frequencies which previously caused damage to be more unpleasing, which is a perfectly understandable response).

 

[blue_ridge]

What’s the difference between dB and dBa ratings? They don’t seem to be in direct proportion to each other.

 

[E. Bryant]

So, first off, hats off for testing your stuff along side your competitor’s cans. Secondly, I can’t compare cans because I’m a dumbass.

For the shooter’s ear, what metric do you suggest sorting by? Seems like maybe you are suggesting the “SE Leq dBA” column?

My personal preference would be the Impulse in Pa-ms (the dB-ms units tend to "flatten" the results too much for my liking due to the logrithmic nature of the decibel unit, but the ranking will remain the same). This represents the potential to transfer momentum to the inner ear, so it tends to do a pretty good job of quantifying hearing damage risk.

I know everyone jumps straight to the .308 data, but dang look at those numbers on the Ultra 338 on the .338LM. Pretty frickin' impressive.

Other random observations:

1) @TBACRAY @Zak Smith I like how you guys just kinda snuck that "Magnus 375" into the results

2) The testing of .223 and .308 through pistol-caliper cans was interesting.

3) Full-house .45-70 is a bitch to suppress.

4) Certain categories (ex.: 5.56 thru .30-cal cans) show some very tight grouping of results to the point where ranking the top 10-20 is almost meaningless.

5) 5.56 SBRs remain a real bastard to effectively suppress; the best-performing .223 can on the MK18 is potentially more damaging than the 5th-worse .30-cal can on the .308 bolt gun according to SE impulse. (Impulse numbers at the muzzle aren't quite so drastically worse, so there's some significant impact of weapon system performance on these results.)

6) Swapping out just the ammo on your 9mm host from Blazer 124gr to STELTH 165gr cuts the SE impulse by 45%, which nicely illustrates the influence of this one parameter on evaluation of a pistol suppressor.

 

[Fig]

3dBA is the measure of double the sound energy. HOWEVER:
PerceptionSound studies tell us time and again that a 3dBA increase in sound level is barely noticeable to the human ear. In fact, you have to raise a sound level by 5dBA before most listeners report a noticeable or significant change. Further, it takes a 10dBA increase before the average listener hears “double the sound.” That’s a far cry from 3dB, and as you approach the danger level of sound these perceptual differences only decrease. By the time you get to a suppressed rifle impulse and frequency is probably more important to perceived sound than the actual amount of energy.

I’m not trying to shit on what looks like a very scientific study, only to say that those claiming this proves that this or that suppressor is “the best”, are not able to tell from the data, because perception isn’t part of any scientific test, just like the perceptual hearing tests don’t offer definitive data sets for what people perceive. If you like (I.e. think it’s quiet) one of the products that looked like it did “poorly“, the data sets may simply be wrong when applied to perception. Put more simply, a can that registers more energy than another can may actually sound quieter to a given person, especially when we are usually talking less than a 5dBA difference.

Like everything else in shooting there is some witchcraft involved.

 

[spife7980]

What’s the difference between dB and dBa ratings? They don’t seem to be in direct proportion to each other.

"d. dB vs dBA – In this document, dB is used to refer to unweighted dB. dBA is used to refer to A-weighted dB."
I was struggling to find what the A-weighted actually is too.

This is at the bottom

but its nerd speak for something I dont understand.

 

[Fig]

dB is raw energy.
dBA is weighted to those frequencies the majority of healthy, human ears are more attuned to hear. We don’t have a flat hearing range.

 

[spife7980]

dB is raw energy.
dBA is weighted to those frequencies the majority of healthy, human ears are more attuned to hear. We don’t have a flat hearing range.

 

[E. Bryant]

Neither dB nor dBA is going to accurately represent the perception of loudness or the hearing risk potential of impulse noise.

 

[AznTactical]

Excellent write up. Brain is still fried trying to read and understand the data but is there a way to sort by DB reduction per OZ then again by price? aka "bang for the buck"?