208 Amax - Alternate Powder Thread

LawnMM

LawnMM

Harbinger of Sarcasm
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Minuteman
    • Jul 5, 2009
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    Colorado
    #1
    Some of you may have read my thread on the 208 Amax and RL17. I had decent results with that combo, you can read about it **HERE**

    Unfortunately, I won't be sticking with the RL17. It has frustrated me to the point of dropping it as my powder for these projectiles. I've been to the range numerous times with that combo and despite having some initial success and being able to tune the load down to single digit SD numbers, it doesn't hold.

    A temperature change as little as 20 degrees, say between 95 and 75 degrees, is enough to untune the load and push the SD numbers up into the teens and twenties and the ES into the 40-50fps range. Not surprisingly this affects the load's ability to group well, perform consistently, and has a drastic affect on its long range accuracy (600-1000 yards).

    I picked up a bottle of Varget and plan to post my results with that powder here as I did with the RL17. So everybody is on the same page I'm pushing the loads through my Remington 700 that has a trued action and a 24" Rock Creek 5R barrel with a 1:10 twist. Some people have commented that it's not worth trying to get such a heavy bullet to work in a .308 and its better suited to bigger calibers. I think modern barrels, modern bullets, and modern powder make it more than possible to extend the lifespan, and effective range, of the .308 caliber. 800 yards may have been the limit 20-30 years ago when we had inconsistent powders and 168 grain projectiles that couldn't stay supersonic beyond 800 yards.

    The 208 Amax is supersonic beyond 1200 yards, at sea level, when launched at a pretty modest 2400fps. This isn't a 155gr Lapua Scenar. It doesn't have to be pushed out of the barrel at 2900+ fps to be effective and accurate. The 208 is a big bullet, with a high BC, and its a very consistent shooter. Despite my issues with powder changing the velocities on me I still made hits with it at 800-1000 yards easier than with 175 and 178 grain projectiles. Its a wind cheater and I plan to keep using it. That said, here are the results of my first range session with Varget.

    I started at 38 grains using Winchester brass, CCI 200 primers, and the 208 Amax projectile. I don't have SD numbers on the first few because they were three shot groups. I did this because I was quite certain I wouldn't have pressure issues and I didn't want to burn up powder and projectiles on the low end.

    40.0gr
    SD - NA
    ES - 10
    AV - 2381

    **With an ES of 10 I'm certain the SD was low also, and an average speed of 2381fps. Thats enough for 1000 yards at sea level already. My goal is 2500-2550fps with a single digit SD.

    40.5gr
    SD - NA
    ES - 10.0
    AV - 2381

    41.0gr
    SD - NA
    ES - 71.0
    AV - 2380

    41.2gr
    SD - 20.5
    ES - 48.0
    AV - 2407

    41.4gr
    SD - 24.7
    ES - 72.0
    AV - 2409

    41.6gr
    SD - 13.6
    ES - 39.0
    AV - 2379

    41.8gr
    SD - 6.0
    ES - 20.0
    AV - 2427

    42.0gr
    SD - 16.7
    ES - 51.0
    AV - 2432

    42.2gr
    SD - 9.0
    ES - 24.0
    AV - 2462

    42.4gr
    SD - 31.4
    ES - 72.0
    AV - 2455

    42.6gr
    SD - 23.0
    ES - 60.0
    AV - 2480

    42.8gr
    SD - 22.0
    ES - 63.0
    AV - 2489

    There are two powder charges already that show some promise. The numbers are coming down right at the end on the last three strings. I believe I jumped out of the accuracy node and the numbers swelled accordingly and I'm below the low end of the next accuracy node. I have 43.0-44.0gr charges loaded in .2gr increments for next week. I'm sitting at just under my goal of 2500fps already and so far I have ZERO pressure issues. No sticky bolt, no flat primers, no ejector wipe. 2500fps should come in the next two to four tenths of a grain of powder.

    Ideally I would like to get up to around 2550fps because I'm planning on cutting my barrel back to 22" for a little weight reduction and increase in mobility. I'm also planning to add a suppressor in the future. I would like a muzzle brake when not using the suppressor so I'm pretty set on the Surefire combo brake/adaptor units since they get pretty excellent reviews. I'm planning to have the barrel threaded and brake added when I cut the barrel, hopefully in the next few weeks. I expect to lose 20-50fps when I drop two inches, so if I can get 2550 or so out of the 24 inches I have now, I should be able to maintain 2500fps after the mods. This is also enough speed, at altitude here in Colorado, to shoot beyond 1600 yards supersonic.

    I will update this as I go. Feel free to post your own results, questions, or observations.

    Here's today's target, jumped around a bit with the loads and I'm amazed how much rust my trigger finger develops in only a few weeks. I'm going to make a much more concerted effort to dry fire for a half hour or so minimum if I can't make a range trip each week.

    VargetTest1.jpg

    Rich
     
    #3
    Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

    I'm also interested in your results. I just started looking at running this in my DPMS LR 308. I only have a 16" brl tho, so I'm assuming I'll be lucky to get 2400 fps out of it, but if I can get them to shoot to 800yd @ SL I'll be happy.
     
    #4
    Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: triceratops3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can't wait for your up dates. I'm considering using varget and 208's after I rebarrel. </div></div>

    What are you looking at barrel wise? A 1:12 will stabilize a 208 but if you want velocity I'd be leaning towards a fast 1:10 barrel. Rock Creek is supposed to be a fast barrel, I don't know if ordering tight barrels like .299's help with that or what. Mine is a .300

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bigwheels</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm also interested in your results. I just started looking at running this in my DPMS LR 308. I only have a 16" brl tho, so I'm assuming I'll be lucky to get 2400 fps out of it, but if I can get them to shoot to 800yd @ SL I'll be happy. </div></div>

    You can make 1000 yards at sea level with 2100fps. The question is whether the wind characteristics will be worth your trajectory tradeoff. Here are some sea level numbers...

    208 Amax - 2500fps
    375/85
    178 Amax - 2700fps
    373/108
    208 Amax - 2300fps
    455/95

    Thats inches of drop at 1000 yards and inches of wind drift. The drop on the Amax at 2500fps is within 2 inches of a 178 Amax doing 2700fps. The 178s are pretty near twins to the Sierra 175s. Despite a 200fps loss in velocity the trajectory is the same. The wind drift...thats another story. The 175/178s stray a full two feet farther off course in the same 10mph full value wind.

    I ran 2300 fps because I think 2500 with a 24" barrel is a cakewalk. That being the case, an 8 inch barrel loss at 25fps per inch yields you around 2300fps for muzzle velocity at 16". You will get to 800, you will get to 1000 supersonic. The question is do you value one foot less wind drift over 6.5ft more drop. Thats a rather large difference in trajectory. If on a numbered range or with a range finder, may not matter. If you do any UKD shooting, I doubt its going to be worth the tradeoff.

    Rich
     
    #5
    Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

    Primarily I'm looking to use up the 550+ 208's I have left after switching to the Hor 225 HPBT in my 300WM. If I can get them to work I'll be happy.
     
    #7
    Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

    Damn... another bullet to try. I have been having ok results at 1000yrd FTR pushing 178s @ 2680 but have been wanting to try faster.
    2' less wind drift sounds pretty darn inticing.. Was dialing 3moa wind and holding 2 at the last match.
    Anybody tried 208s with 2000mr ?
     
    #8
    Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WhiskyTangoFoxtrot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Damn... another bullet to try. I have been having ok results at 1000yrd FTR pushing 178s @ 2680 but have been wanting to try faster.
    2' less wind drift sounds pretty darn inticing.. Was dialing 3moa wind and holding 2 at the last match.
    Anybody tried 208s with 2000mr ? </div></div>

    Its the difference between like 7ft and 9ft of drift. Thats significant in my book. I'd give it a whirl, if you can get 2680 out of 178s you can probably get close to 2500 out of the 208s.

    Rich
     
    #12
    Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

    Keep us posted on the results.

    I posted on your other thread yesterday on my results with the same combo.

    Accuracy is great and the Varget is giving velocities that'll get the job done past 1K easily. According to my Shooter App, she'll make it to 1225 yards and retain a MV of 1145.6 fps at 1000' ASL. That's off a Rock 1-10 twist at 22" with an average MV of 2435 fps.

    I'm running 42.0gr of Varget, 208 seated to 2.200" @ the ogive (COAL of 2.95"), Fed 210's and R-P brass. ES and SD's were single digits and UNREAL accuracy. I initially ran up to 42.8gr during ladder testing but hit my peak accuracy node right at 42.0gr. Never saw a point in running over that node as the accuracy was a "bughole" load with only an ever so slight amount of primer flattening. Accuracy was the key on my load and didn't see the point in hot-rodding my rig.

    Final work-up on my load......

    20842.jpg



    Keep us posted on your next batch of loads and the results! Best of luck and happy shooting!!
     
    #13
    Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes plse. I tried the 208 with Varget and CCI primers...link below and you can see the pressure signs I had at 42gr were pretty severe.

    http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2358816 </div></div>

    I see you have a 1:12 twist barrel, who makes the barrel? What length is it? What type of brass are you using?

    Rich

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Da-Law-Dawg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Keep us posted on the results.

    I posted on your other thread yesterday on my results with the same combo.

    Accuracy is great and the Varget is giving velocities that'll get the job done past 1K easily. According to my Shooter App, she'll make it to 1225 yards and retain a MV of 1145.6 fps at 1000' ASL. That's off a Rock 1-10 twist at 22" with an average MV of 2435 fps.

    I'm running 42.0gr of Varget, 208 seated to 2.200" @ the ogive (COAL of 2.95"), Fed 210's and R-P brass. ES and SD's were single digits and UNREAL accuracy. I initially ran up to 42.8gr during ladder testing but hit my peak accuracy node right at 42.0gr. Never saw a point in running over that node as the accuracy was a "bughole" load with only an ever so slight amount of primer flattening. Accuracy was the key on my load and didn't see the point in hot-rodding my rig.

    Final work-up on my load......

    20842.jpg



    Keep us posted on your next batch of loads and the results! Best of luck and happy shooting!! </div></div>

    Just went and read it, that's somebody else's thread but its a good read. The Remington brass may cut down on case capacity. You have yours loaded a little shorter too. You mag feed? DBM or what?
     
    #14
    Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LawnMM</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: triceratops3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can't wait for your up dates. I'm considering using varget and 208's after I rebarrel. </div></div>

    What are you looking at barrel wise? A 1:12 will stabilize a 208 but if you want velocity I'd be leaning towards a fast 1:10 barrel. Rock Creek is supposed to be a fast barrel, I don't know if ordering tight barrels like .299's help with that or what. Mine is a .300 </div></div>

    I was looking for a 1:10 twist about 26" long. I was looking at shilen, and others that offer Savage prefits.
     
    #15
    Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: triceratops3</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LawnMM</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: triceratops3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can't wait for your up dates. I'm considering using varget and 208's after I rebarrel. </div></div>

    What are you looking at barrel wise? A 1:12 will stabilize a 208 but if you want velocity I'd be leaning towards a fast 1:10 barrel. Rock Creek is supposed to be a fast barrel, I don't know if ordering tight barrels like .299's help with that or what. Mine is a .300 </div></div>

    I was looking for a 1:10 twist about 26" long. I was looking at shilen, and others that offer Savage prefits. </div></div>

    I don't think you need the extra two inches. Doesn't hurt anything but adds weight for not a lot of extra benefit. I will keep this updated as to results with the current 24" length I have and what effect going to 22" has.

    Rich
     
    #16
    Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LawnMM</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes plse. I tried the 208 with Varget and CCI primers...link below and you can see the pressure signs I had at 42gr were pretty severe.

    http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2358816 </div></div>

    I see you have a 1:12 twist barrel, who makes the barrel? What length is it? What type of brass are you using?

    Rich

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Da-Law-Dawg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Keep us posted on the results.

    I posted on your other thread yesterday on my results with the same combo.

    Accuracy is great and the Varget is giving velocities that'll get the job done past 1K easily. According to my Shooter App, she'll make it to 1225 yards and retain a MV of 1145.6 fps at 1000' ASL. That's off a Rock 1-10 twist at 22" with an average MV of 2435 fps.

    I'm running 42.0gr of Varget, 208 seated to 2.200" @ the ogive (COAL of 2.95"), Fed 210's and R-P brass. ES and SD's were single digits and UNREAL accuracy. I initially ran up to 42.8gr during ladder testing but hit my peak accuracy node right at 42.0gr. Never saw a point in running over that node as the accuracy was a "bughole" load with only an ever so slight amount of primer flattening. Accuracy was the key on my load and didn't see the point in hot-rodding my rig.

    Final work-up on my load......

    20842.jpg



    Keep us posted on your next batch of loads and the results! Best of luck and happy shooting!! </div></div>

    Just went and read it, that's somebody else's thread but its a good read. The Remington brass may cut down on case capacity. You have yours loaded a little shorter too. You mag feed? DBM or what? </div></div>

    Lawn,

    Sorry 'bout that, thought that was your thread.

    No issues with the R-P brass, barely the slightest hint of compression during seating. Had some Win and Lapua on hand but over 700 pieces of R-P in my stash.

    I initially set mine up off my chambering aid that was supplied by my 'smith when he installed the Rock tube. Initially, I was at 2.221" @ the ogive (.01" in the lands) during ladder testing. After I completed the ladder tests, I backed my loads off to 2.200" @ the ogive (.01" off the lands) for shooting groups for initial seating depth and hit the nail on the head!

    I'm mag feeding the 208's in the FN thru a CDI bottom metal with Alpha Type II mags. Feeds great from the Alpha's and the load shoots lights out!
     
    #17
    Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

    yeah, Like it will just be used for range shooting and the occasional match at T.V.P. hopefully. I was looking at 6.5 calibers like .260 but since I already have everything I need I figure I don't need a 260 because I won't be pushing it past 1k that often.
     
    #18
    Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Da-Law-Dawg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lawn,

    Sorry 'bout that, thought that was your thread.

    No issues with the R-P brass, barely the slightest hint of compression during seating. Had some Win and Lapua on hand but over 700 pieces of R-P in my stash.

    I initially set mine up off my chambering aid that was supplied by my 'smith when he installed the Rock tube. Initially, I was at 2.221" @ the ogive (.01" in the lands) during ladder testing. After I completed the ladder tests, I backed my loads off to 2.200" @ the ogive (.01" off the lands) for shooting groups for initial seating depth and hit the nail on the head!

    I'm mag feeding the 208's in the FN thru a CDI bottom metal with Alpha Type II mags. Feeds great from the Alpha's and the load shoots lights out! </div></div>

    I had a nice accurate load at 41.8gr and pretty identical loading length. Though I'm not that close to the lands. I think I'm looking at about a .016 jump right now if memory serves. I'm going to see if I can get the velocity higher. I have another 5 rounds loaded at 41.8gr to confirm the numbers if I run into pressure before finding another accuracy node.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: triceratops3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yeah, Like it will just be used for range shooting and the occasional match at T.V.P. hopefully. I was looking at 6.5 calibers like .260 but since I already have everything I need I figure I don't need a 260 because I won't be pushing it past 1k that often. </div></div>

    Even if you did the 208 has same/better BC than the popular .260 projectiles anyway. They do it with a bit less recoil and less drop, but their wind cheating ability is no better or worse.

    Rich
     
    #19
    Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

    I hit a good load at 41.8 as well but the 42.0 load squinched in a tad better. My ladder testing was in the dead of summer (90+ degree weather) and saw some pressure signs above 42.2 but nothing severe. Had a bit of sticky bolt from 42.4 up but no primer blanking.

    Your correct on the barrel length, my Rock 22" tube is netting 2435 fps (10 shot average) and the same load in a 24" Tikka was netting 2450 fps. I don't think the 26" tube will gain a lot over a 22" 0r a 24" tube in this load.
     
    #20
    Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LawnMM</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Da-Law-Dawg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lawn,

    Sorry 'bout that, thought that was your thread.

    No issues with the R-P brass, barely the slightest hint of compression during seating. Had some Win and Lapua on hand but over 700 pieces of R-P in my stash.

    I initially set mine up off my chambering aid that was supplied by my 'smith when he installed the Rock tube. Initially, I was at 2.221" @ the ogive (.01" in the lands) during ladder testing. After I completed the ladder tests, I backed my loads off to 2.200" @ the ogive (.01" off the lands) for shooting groups for initial seating depth and hit the nail on the head!

    I'm mag feeding the 208's in the FN thru a CDI bottom metal with Alpha Type II mags. Feeds great from the Alpha's and the load shoots lights out! </div></div>

    I had a nice accurate load at 41.8gr and pretty identical loading length. Though I'm not that close to the lands. I think I'm looking at about a .016 jump right now if memory serves. I'm going to see if I can get the velocity higher. I have another 5 rounds loaded at 41.8gr to confirm the numbers if I run into pressure before finding another accuracy node.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: triceratops3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yeah, Like it will just be used for range shooting and the occasional match at T.V.P. hopefully. I was looking at 6.5 calibers like .260 but since I already have everything I need I figure I don't need a 260 because I won't be pushing it past 1k that often. </div></div>

    Even if you did the 208 has same/better BC than the popular .260 projectiles anyway. They do it with a bit less recoil and less drop, but their wind cheating ability is no better or worse.

    Rich</div></div>

    I think you are down playing the 6.5 advantage by quite a bit.

    Compare either a 260 Rem or 6.5 Creedmoor with a 140 Berger VLD going 2850 to a 208 A-max going 2500 and here is what it looks like at 700 Yards (the furthest I have shot in tactical competition), and at 1000 yards.

    Caliber range drop 10MPH wind
    6.5 700 106" 23"
    7.62 700 141" 27"
    6.5 1000 262" 51.5"
    7.62 1000 346" 59"

    True, wind in this scenario is about 15% better with the 6.5, but the drop is around 35% better.

    I too am going to the 208 A-max because I am tired of missing on marginal wind calls to the 6.5 and 6mm's, but the advantage is more than just a little. A slight miscalculation on distance will bite you in the ass just as much as a wind call.

    Just saying...
     
    #21
    Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

    I had to give this combination a try. In all fairness, I did try it once in my AR10 and a Berger 210. I wasn't impressed with the speed nor accuracy. I (think) I used either 40.0 or 41.0 grains and that got me around 2400 fps.

    Fast forward a few years and a new bolt gun brings me back to a retest, although this time a little more thoroughly. I used some tired old WIN brass and CCI BR2s. I started at 41.0 grains and jumped in 1/2 grain increments. I know that it's not ideal but it's what I do.

    The first group is a load I wanted to try with RL17. I think it's just starting to get outside a node. Distance was 100, and all targets had the same common POA. The last group was the 155 Berger VLD and 46.0 g.r Varget. Not bad for never having shot that load before in this rifle! Either way, I think the 208 load with Varget is do able, albeit much slower than that of RL17. I might go up another 1/2 gr. or so as there was no pressure signs or hard extraction. Then again, I'll probably just test the H4350 with this load, too.

    Side note, the first Varget group only has 2 shots as the third round wouldn't chamber. The rifle has a fairly tight neck, and won't tolerate much out of spec stuff.
    100_6317.jpg

    100_6316.jpg

    This is a post I made on Dan Newberry's site. I don't mean to hijack. I have about 7 lbs of Varget and a bunch of the 208s and 210 Bergers now too. I will try both bullets, all three powders (including RL17 and H4350)
     
    #23
    Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes plse. I tried the 208 with Varget and CCI primers...link below and you can see the pressure signs I had at 42gr were pretty severe.

    http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2358816 </div></div>

    COAL for me is 2.953, chamber length I believe is 2.960 so I'm .007 off the lands.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fireguyty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    I think you are down playing the 6.5 advantage by quite a bit.

    Compare either a 260 Rem or 6.5 Creedmoor with a 140 Berger VLD going 2850 to a 208 A-max going 2500 and here is what it looks like at 700 Yards (the furthest I have shot in tactical competition), and at 1000 yards.

    Caliber range drop 10MPH wind
    6.5 700 106" 23"
    7.62 700 141" 27"
    6.5 1000 262" 51.5"
    7.62 1000 346" 59"

    True, wind in this scenario is about 15% better with the 6.5, but the drop is around 35% better.

    I too am going to the 208 A-max because I am tired of missing on marginal wind calls to the 6.5 and 6mm's, but the advantage is more than just a little. A slight miscalculation on distance will bite you in the ass just as much as a wind call.

    Just saying... </div></div>

    Not downplaying it at all. I said, quite accurately, that the .260/6.5s accomplish the same with less drop and recoil but their ability to fight the wind was no better or worse. I personally don't consider 4 inches at 700 yards or 7 inches at 1000 enough of a difference to justify switching calibers.

    Is there a difference in drop, absolutely. The Amax is a heaver bullet and its moving slower, it has to be lobbed more to get it to the same distance. For most folks that's not a huge issue though. Most guys are recreational shooters and do so on square ranges with known distances. Laser range finders are also common and offset the problem of unknown distances in hunting and even LE/MIL scenarios. I remember a discussion about milling targets and Lowlight brought up excellent points regarding the subject. Most guys, even MIL who deal with more random distances than any of us use laser range finders. If they do mil a target its quick and dirty and at less than maximum capable distances.

    My point, is that the flatter trajectory is really only a big advantage when dealing with targets of uncertain range, AND you can't/aren't allowed to lase them, such as in certain competitions. If you botch a mil estimation of target distance a flatter trajectory minimizes the error, no argument and if I was in that scenario and had my choice of weapons I'd opt for a flat trajectory caliber. For the rest of us that don't have the money for a second rig, or don't want to rebarrel to a new caliber, I think the 208 makes a huge amount of sense. Even if you do compete, unless you are doing a LOT of that kind of shooting, I'm not sure a new caliber makes sense. Don't forget that trajectory comes with a price, shorter barrel life. Much shorter than a .308.

    Hope that clarifies, I'm not trying to knock the .260, I just don't think its the end all/be all caliber its made out to be. It has its shortcomings like any other caliber and for those that don't shoot in a manner that allows them to maximize the trajectory difference I think it makes more sense to upgrade their .308 loads and exploit the longevity that caliber offers. Hope that makes sense and doesn't come off argumentative.

    FFL...I'm glad you jumped in here. I'm interested to see what comes of the H4350. Feel free to post that info in here to and I can always retitle the thread and we can compile this into a big heavy 308 powder resource thread.

    Rich
     
    #24
    Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

    The charge weights for IMR 4350 and 200 weight bullets is somewhere between 42.0 and almost 50.0. It'll be compressed for sure, same as the RL17. If the H4350 can give some fps between Varget and RL17 and the temp stability and low ES/SD...we'll have a winner! The IMR/H charge weight for 4350 should be similar.
     
    #25
    Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

    I will be interested to see how that turns out. If it offers a speed advantage over Varget with the same temp stability it will for sure be worth checking out. I'm interested to see what you come up with. I may give that a try next if I don't get a satisfactory performing load with Varget.
     
    #27
    Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

    I used to run RL15 with 175/178 grain projectiles with good accuracy. Unfortunately I'm looking to use very temp stable powders. I live in Colorado and the temps here, especially in fall and winter, can literally be in the teens and twenties in the morning and up to 50-60 by mid afternoon.

    I don't want wildly shifting velocities that untune the load and degrade accuracy. Dealt with enough of that already with RL17.

    Rich
     
    #28
    Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LawnMM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    208 Amax - 2500fps
    375/85
    178 Amax - 2700fps
    373/108
    208 Amax - 2300fps
    455/95 </div></div>

    155 Scenar - 2950fps
    302/83

    {Just a data point, no complaint or comment.}
     
    #29
    Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

    I swore I'd never look at anything other than a temp stable powder. I had bad experience (tail chase with a load) with RL25 in a 300 RUM. Speed was awesome, and accuracy was decent, but temp stability was POOR! I too live in Colorado, and the temp swings can be almost violent from one day to the next, not to mention hour to hour. I was beguiled by the possibility (reality) of speed using the RL series powder and heavies in the .308. The H4350 will be compressed. I have never used it in that case or manner. I know it shoot incredible in my .243, and assume I'll have to use the drop tube for it in the .308 as well. At one point, I had some quick load info for this exact thing. Let me see if I can dig it up.
     
    #30
    Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MitchAlsup</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LawnMM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    208 Amax - 2500fps
    375/85
    178 Amax - 2700fps
    373/108
    208 Amax - 2300fps
    455/95 </div></div>

    155 Scenar - 2950fps
    302/83

    {Just a data point, no complaint or comment.} </div></div>

    Sure thing, lets add a few more.
    grin.gif


    The Amax will best the Scenar at 1100 yards and beyond for wind drift (At sea level anyway according to JBM, Alt is another story). The Scenar will be better on drop, but thats to be expected, its launched almost 500fps faster, and it weighs 53gr less. Here's the most important data point for my consideration since the Scenar is a very good bullet...

    I can't find Lapua Scenar's anywhere for less than about 44.00 dollars per box. I can find 208 Amax for 25.00 per box. I can shoot just shy of twice as often with the Amax and since I'm currently doing ZERO UKD shooting, the flatter trajectory is moot. If I could buy Scenar's for 25 bucks a box I wouldn't be working on a load for 208s, believe me.

    The Sierra 155 Palma is attractive for less money. One of my issues with those is muzzle velocity. I plan to chop my barrel to 22 inches. I don't know what that's going to do to muzzle velocity on the lighter bullets that by all accounts, need to be pushed fast to be effective. If you can find some people to chime in with 22" or shorter barrels that get fast velocities with the lighter rounds so they maintain their ballistic performance...I will make that my next project.

    Rich

     
    #31
    Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

    I'm sure glad I kept a lot of notes about this stuff. I've forgotten more than I care to remember! Anyways, the quickload data is a no go. It is NOT an accurate predictor of what I'm trying to accomplish here. I have SEVERAL older reloading manuals that specifically designate IMR 4350 for 200 class bullets. I'm willing to bet that the H4350 WILL work, however I'm pretty sure it will not be near the speed of the RL17, and in fact may not be that much more than VARGET. It's obvious that a loss of 150 fps will not change the world, but that extra energy is nice, especially at the distances I hunt. I would be VERY happy with right at 2600 fps and LOW ES/SDs, AND temp insensitivity. I do ask a lot at times...
     
    #32
    Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ffl medic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm sure glad I kept a lot of notes about this stuff. I've forgotten more than I care to remember! Anyways, the quickload data is a no go. It is NOT an accurate predictor of what I'm trying to accomplish here. I have SEVERAL older reloading manuals that specifically designate IMR 4350 for 200 class bullets. I'm willing to bet that the H4350 WILL work, however I'm pretty sure it will not be near the speed of the RL17, and in fact may not be that much more than VARGET. It's obvious that a loss of 150 fps will not change the world, but that extra energy is nice, especially at the distances I hunt. I would be VERY happy with right at 2600 fps and LOW ES/SDs, AND temp insensitivity. I do ask a lot at times... </div></div>

    Looking forward to seeing how it turns out. We will have to compare the performance I get from Varget to what you come up with using H4350. If the H4350 gets another 100fps its worth exploring. I don't know if 50fps would be worth it, we will have to see. I'm probably going to the range Monday and should have the last of the Varget results. I'll either hit another node with higher velocity or I won't and I'll confirm the lower node around 41.8gr or 42.2.

    Compression is an issue worth discussing also. I don't mind that its compressed, except that it makes uniform seating depth a pain in the ass. The more compression, the less consistent seating. Using Varget there is less powder in the case and I can seat them all very uniformly without readjusting the die for each round because of varying degrees of compression.

    Rich
     
    #33
    Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

    I'm with you on the 50 fps. 100 fps, most probably. I don't think i've hit the upper VARGET node. I think it is just a hair higher than 42.5. 2500 fps is not really all that bad, it's just that I've seen 2700. That speed was with the 210 Berger, though. I have also shot the 47.8 VARGET load with the 155 Berger, and it is indeed accurate and fast, but it was hard on the WIN brass. For those I settled on the load of 46.0 (subject to alteration) and got 2850.
     
    #34
    Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

    I think it will be over 43 grains. I went to 42.8 and the numbers were loose. I think it will tighten up again between 42.8 and the mid 43s. Will find out in a few days.

    Rich
     
    #36
    Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

    I will be following this carefully. I have tons of varget and 208s. My rifle is away on a business trip but I plan to work on this some when she is back. I also wanted to try the 208 with some trail boss for a subsonic load.
     
    #37
    Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bamawrx</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will be following this carefully. I have tons of varget and 208s. My rifle is away on a business trip but I plan to work on this some when she is back. I also wanted to try the 208 with some trail boss for a subsonic load. </div></div>

    I think its going to be an excellent load for .308s with shorter barrels. The 155gr projectiles are good stuff but from what reading I've done they need to be cooking pretty good to achieve it. Threads I've gone over here say the 155s tend to yield to the 175s and other common loads when they are moving slower.

    Two days more for work and then I'm off. I'm planning to hit the range with my chronograph on Monday. Based off of that trip I will finalize something the following week. Picking up a brick of BR2s after work today.

    Rich
     
    #38
    Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

    Update 10/10

    Went out again today with a slew of stuff loaded up. Here is what I came up with...

    43.0gr
    AV - 2521
    SD - 9.0
    ES - 27.0

    43.2gr
    AV - 2524
    SD - 13.8
    ES - 33.0

    41.8gr
    AV - 2473
    SD - 9.0
    ES - 27.0

    42.8gr
    AV - 2477
    SD - 23.2
    ES - 67.0

    So I ran into pressure on the way up early on. The first string was solid with a single digit ES and an AV speed of 2521. The next string at 43.2gr I had a sticky bolt on the whole string of five rounds. Stopped there even though I had loaded in .2gr increments all the way to 44gr. I'll have to pull those later. The upper node seems to be right around 43gr. I am going out again on Wednesday to finalize this. I have five strings loaded from 42.7gr to 43.1gr in .1gr increments. I will chronograph those and that should give me all the info I need to nail this down.

    I suspect the upper accuracy node is going to be right around 42.8-42.9 area. I think those numbers were skewed by heat the last go around. I will space the strings out more on Weds to make sure I'm getting accurate measurements. I'd be happy with the 43gr charge for now but if I can drop a tenth or two of a grain and get a lower SD, maybe around 6 like a prior load, and right at the 2500fps line I will stick with it. 43gr wasn't giving me trouble today but it was a cool 65F and 43gr may be too hot in 95F next summer.

    Targets from today are below. The 43gr group showed the most promise despite being the largest group. The stringing was all vertical because I have been paying less attention to my breathing than I should be. What interests me about the first group is the horizontal dispersion is less than 0.360" wide. Had I been shooting more and as refined as I usually am I'd have made that one ragged sub 1/2MOA hole. I will focus on that Wednesday and see if I can produce better groupings and finalize the right powder charge for this bullet and powder combo.

    So far so good! The third string was a confirmation from last time. Good numbers and it was a group in the .6s but the numbers on the 4th group were off from last go around and that's why I suspect a heat issue cooking the rounds off a little faster. Barrel was too hot by the third string because the same load last time yielded a single digit SD. Wednesday I think I am going to shoot a string, wait five minutes, shoot a string, repeat. Should avoid heat buildup in the barrel affecting the velocity. The accuracy is me and I'm slowly getting that back. Also worth noting, this was with CCI200s. On previous outings I had better accuracy with the BR2s. I have since switched to those, these were the last of my 200s so that may help tighten up the numbers, and the groups, on Weds. Weds will be more precise charges using all BR2 primers. Stay tuned.

    VargetTest2.jpg
     
    #39
    Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LawnMM</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WhiskyTangoFoxtrot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Damn... another bullet to try. I have been having ok results at 1000yrd FTR pushing 178s @ 2680 but have been wanting to try faster.
    2' less wind drift sounds pretty darn inticing.. Was dialing 3moa wind and holding 2 at the last match.
    Anybody tried 208s with 2000mr ? </div></div>

    Its the difference between like 7ft and 9ft of drift. Thats significant in my book. I'd give it a whirl, if you can get 2680 out of 178s you can probably get close to 2500 out of the 208s.

    Rich </div></div>
    I was able to get em up around2750 but 2680 looked best at the time. 208s inbound.. I reckon I will be the guinea pig and try this with 2000mr and Varget also since I have both around.
    I only thought i was done with load testing...
    .648 BC.
     
    #40
    Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

    Post your 2000mr results in here. I can reticle the thread and we can make it a single data point for 208s and a variety of powders and loads. FFL is going to test H4350. That would be three powders and a variety of charge weights in one thread.

    Rich
     
    #42
    Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LawnMM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One of my issues with those is muzzle velocity. I plan to chop my barrel to 22 inches. I don't know what that's going to do to muzzle velocity on the lighter bullets that by all accounts, need to be pushed fast to be effective. </div></div>

    Cutting a 24" tube down to a 20" tube will reduce the range of a properly loaded 308 from 1200 yards to 1100 yards--that is the 4" of barrel lenght account for the last 100 yards of solidly supersonic distance.

    I don't know if anyone who has cut a barrel down has done the heavies versus lighties versus the KotH 175 SMKs to see if there is a useful difference in absolute range that is dependent on projectile weights.
     
    #43
    Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MitchAlsup</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LawnMM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One of my issues with those is muzzle velocity. I plan to chop my barrel to 22 inches. I don't know what that's going to do to muzzle velocity on the lighter bullets that by all accounts, need to be pushed fast to be effective. </div></div>

    Cutting a 24" tube down to a 20" tube will reduce the range of a properly loaded 308 from 1200 yards to 1100 yards--that is the 4" of barrel lenght account for the last 100 yards of solidly supersonic distance.

    I don't know if anyone who has cut a barrel down has done the heavies versus lighties versus the KotH 175 SMKs to see if there is a useful difference in absolute range that is dependent on projectile weights. </div></div>

    I am not referring to range. From what I have read here the 155gr projectiles perform very well with high bc's and flat trajectories. I have also read their performance suffers with muzzle velocity loss. I don't know if I could get them moving fast enough to outperform a 175/178gr projectile with a shorter barrel. Let alone have it produce comparable wind fighting drift numbers to the 208. As I said, if you get some 155 people to chime in on how they managed good velocity with a shorter barrel using 155s I will add it to my list of rounds to test and report on.

    Rich
     
    #44
    Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

    Had the opportunity to run the 208's out to 1100 yards this weekend.

    I can assure you that a 208 over 42.0gr of Varget has absolutely no problem ringing steel at 1100 running 2435fps at the muzzle.

    Attended the RSCS Shoot this weekend and gained a lot of good dope on the load. The wind was switching up quite a bit and the 208's were a plus. My shooting partner was running 168 Amax's and he said the wind was giving him fits on a few in comparison.

    That said, think I'm gonna hang with the combo for keeps. After taking her out to 1100 with the 208's, satisfied that I have found my load!
     
    #45
    Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Da-Law-Dawg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Had the opportunity to run the 208's out to 1100 yards this weekend.

    I can assure you that a 208 over 42.0gr of Varget has absolutely no problem ringing steel at 1100 running 2435fps at the muzzle.

    Attended the RSCS Shoot this weekend and gained a lot of good dope on the load. The wind was switching up quite a bit and the 208's were a plus. My shooting partner was running 168 Amax's and he said the wind was giving him fits on a few in comparison.

    That said, think I'm gonna hang with the combo for keeps. After taking her out to 1100 with the 208's, satisfied that I have found my load! </div></div>

    Good deal. Great example of how these perform, even in the 2400+ fps velocities. I ran some numbers again last night for shits and giggles and the 208 at 2500fps will outperform the 175 hpbt in both windage and drop, even with the 175s launched 250fps faster.

    Here are my results from today...

    42.7gr
    AV - 2464
    SD - 8.0
    ES - 26.0

    42.8gr
    AV - 2467
    SD - 7.0
    ES - 22.0

    42.9gr
    AV - 2470
    SD - 7.0
    ES - 17.0

    43.0gr
    AV - 2479
    SD - 6.0
    ES - 18.0

    43.1gr
    AV - 2490
    SD - 8.0
    ES - 22.0

    VargetTest3.jpg


    The 42.8gr group measures in the .6s, the 43.0gr group does as well, minus the flyer at 9 o' clock. Personally I don't think there's any such thing as a 'flyer'...I'm just out of practice. I think the targets illustrate the potential of this combo though. There was also about a 6-12mph gusting wind I had to contend with today. It had very little value so I wasn't adjusting for it but it wasn't exactly "optimum load capability" conditions.

    Next week I will verify a drop chart and see how it does at 300+ and the following week I will see how it goes in competition.

    The 43.0gr load showed the most potential with an SD of 6fps and an ES of only 18fps. I'm going to stick with that load for now and I will keep my eye on it when the weather turns warm again next year. What I did find interesting today was by switching to the CCI BR2 primers the numbers tightened up across the board. If you compare identical loads from today to my earlier tests early this week and last week, the numbers are tighter all around. The SDs drop another fps or two but the biggest difference is seen in the extreme spreads. The numbers come WAY down with the BR2 primers.

    Also of interest, I think there was only maybe a 5 degree temperature difference between Monday's range trip and today. The velocities on the upper end are lower. Being that the BR2s are the only change I can only surmise the primer difference somehow changes the powder ignition in a manner that yields more consistent ignition, but at lower pressures and therefore lower velocity.

    I could load up more and see if I can squeeze some extra speed out of it but going by the numbers today the middle of the node is 43.0gr. If I start going up again the SD and ES numbers are already starting to swell at 43.1gr. I imagine that trend would continue and I would run into pressure issues again. So for me at least, 43.0gr is the sweet spot, with an average speed of 2480fps. Only a smidge shy of what I was after but still plenty to get beyond 1200 yards at sea level and quite a bit farther here at altitude. The load has a super low SD, and from my reading on Varget before this experiment, there is only a single digit speed variance with temperature extremes with this powder.

    I think this is a keeper. Though I'm still interested to see FFL's results with H4350 since the burn rate chart puts it just ahead of RL17. If it manages similar speeds with good temperature stability it may be an option worth exploring.

    Rich
     
    #46
    Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

    Rich

    I started to breakin my new 308 barrel yesterday and was using H4350 because you were using Varget and didn't see any reason to copy the results. I have a 29.5" barrel and the chamber throated to load a 210 Berger out to 3.040" at the lands. I am getting the mid 2550 range and still haven't reached a max pressure as defined by measuring the case head for expansion. I anticipate reaching 2600 fps at least. The accuracy for 2 shot groups appears to be excellent however haven't done any more.

    IMR 6969 is giving me over 2600 fps and again I am low on pressure so I anticipate almost 2700 fps.

    I wil be testing again this morning and will forward the results.

    Steve
     
    #47
    Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

    Please post them, we can always do a little math and approximate velocities with a shorter barrel. I'm pretty excited to see how the Varget load holds up over the next 6-8 months. Its pretty mild in the 60s and 70s right now but its going to get colder, then warmer again so it will be a good test of the temp stability of the powder.

    If people get good results with H4350 I may work a load up using that also but there are a few of you doing some testing with it now so I will wait on your results. With an SD of 6 I'm not going to complain about the Varget.

    Rich
     
    #48
    Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

    Topic title changed to 208 Amax - Alternate Powder Thread

    Lets try and converge any loads and results people work up for the 208 Amax in 308 here. Montana's RL17 topic very accurately covers the bases on the powder. Post your results for Varget, H4350, anything else you try as a propellant in 308 for the 208 Amax in here.
     
    #49
    Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

    Hi Rich

    Back from range. H4350 proved to be the best between the two powders. I was testing at 300 meters (330 yards). The mirage was heavy today and I know I can do better.

    48.0 grains H4350 gave 2560 fps from my 29.5" barrel and 5 shots into 1.25". 4 shots went into 3/4" with 1 called flier. ES was 17 fps. Caution for those wanting to try this load. I have throated my rifle to take these bullets seated way out to seat the bullets boattail break .050" past the case shoulder neck junction because I have a single shot rifle.

    Since this is also an extreme powder like Varget I will probably stay with this because I am using the same bullet, powder and primer in my 300 SAUM.

    I find H4350 to be very easy to tune and keep tuned. ES are very low and temperatures don't bother the stuff. I shoot from minus 20 to plus 100 so this is very important to me.

    Anyway I will try the 208's against the 210's and see how that goes next.

    Good luck,

    Steve
     
    #50
    Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

    Thanks for the info. Also sort of answers the 'would it be effective with a 24ish inch barrel' question. Probably not. If you do the standard 25fps/inch of barrel length we'd be looking at about 2410fps. I'm getting better speed from the Varget.

    I also may have diagnosed one issue with my groups. I realized I had mixed up batches of brass when loading and I wound up getting some of my processing done out of order. I had the bolt a little tight on closing with a few cases and when I checked the batches I realized I had managed to trim a batch, then grabbed the wrong container and neck sized the trimmed cases. Resulted in a varying neck length on that group and potentially differing neck tension.

    I'm going to verify a drop chart on Monday or Tuesday and I will shoot another group or two to see if there's an effect. I suspect it will tighten up some.

    Rich
     
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