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22 Creedmoor vs 224 Valkarie
- Thread starter D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷
- Start date
Man. They are so close to what I’m looking for. I would need a new boltface, I need to see how long I can load in an internal 700 rem magazine. I might just do an AI....
lol... yup on my truck gun! I even like the Hogue stock! It grips my window and doesn’t slide around!
My dad had the barrel chopped on the 22-250 I bought as a kid for his truck gun. It's setup very similar and is pretty tough to beat when you live in a state with good gun laws. I went to all mag fed just because of the state I live in and how much easier it is to throw a magazine in.
I really appreciate all the feedback. I think this post really brings things into perspective for my wants and needs. If I go with 22CM it will be more about velocity and wow factor and less about making good financial decisions. I think right now I'm in the "hot rod" part of my shooting life. Later on I'll settle down and get a reliable cartridge and sit on the porch of the shooting range shaking my fist at the velocity of these young kids. But for now I want to do hot rod things.
OP here. This won't be a comp gun. Just my personal desire to push a 22 cal far and fast. I have access to some great long range shooting here in AZ and me and some friends just like to get out and try to outdo each other. Also I want to use it for a coyote hunting tournament, no speed limits there.
So I'm looking at this from the perspective of a guy who likes to shoot matches (3200fps speed limit) and I'm not sure I fully "get" the 22 Creedmoor? I shoot a 6 Creed and have no problem getting 110 SMKs to 3100fps which ballistically is much better than an 88 or 90 at the same speed and recoil in a heavy gun with a brake is nothing. Is it that pushing 90s at the speed limit in a 22 Creed you get better ballistics and the same (or less) recoil as say a Dasher pushing 105s at 2800-2900? I'm assuming the barrel life is worse than a 6 Creed, being even more overbore...
The Valkyrie I do get and I want to build one up on an AR pattern rifle. Might even do a bolt gun as a trainer when I'm done with my current .223 trainer. Much better ballistics but still great barrel life, seems like a great compromise for training and local matches, etc.
Maybe someone can better enlighten me on the benefits of the 22 Creed though?
The Valkyrie I do get and I want to build one up on an AR pattern rifle. Might even do a bolt gun as a trainer when I'm done with my current .223 trainer. Much better ballistics but still great barrel life, seems like a great compromise for training and local matches, etc.
Maybe someone can better enlighten me on the benefits of the 22 Creed though?
The 6-8000 round barrel life with .224 Valkyrie, is it with a cut rifled barrel or will a button rifled barrel be able to do the same? Will there be an appreciable difference in barrel life between the two different styles of rifling in .224V ?
you won't see that big a difference in barrel life from one type to another
it's more about "who's barrel" vs Which barrel
it's more about "who's barrel" vs Which barrel
I've been searching for any real-world people that have been tracking barrel life. I see the 3k, 4K,5k+ round count barrel life expectancy memtioned frequently (including by me but anecdotaly)but haven't seen anyone actually post that they've had a barrel go south at any specific range.
I'm currently at 1500 rounds and going strong (.5-7moa consistently.) but that's a far cry from 4-5k+. My 223s have typically lost about .25-.4 moa around 3k rounds and stayed there through about 5k.
Has anyone here actually put 4000-5000 rounds through a Valkyrie with 80+GR projectiles? I'm legitimately asking because I am hoping we can find some proof positive for barrel life that is similar to 223s.
I hopefully a few owners that have gotten at least a few 2k+ round counts can share their insight.
I first built my Valkyrie when criterion finally started offering 6.5 twist and for the most part I've had good luck.
I had contacted Brian in the Snipershide youtube videos on some concerns I had with rifle, like why one box of factory ammo shoots great then I grab another and all hell breaks.... he was telling me that a person needs to shoot several to a box of ammo that one is going to use to get that coppers fouling and powder in the bore(sorta like seasoning it to that ammo) and that mine needs to break in more.....
I'm getting anywhere from .570 ctc 5 shot group to 1.235 ctc 8 shot group all at 100 yards with factory 88 eld-m's at an average of 2676fps in a 24" barrel, 43 es, 17sd with the weather at 72F, Station pressure at 29.01, DA at 2112 and humity at 35%.....I'm pretty excited for reloading for the first time and with this round. He also said some of his loads used varget and FGMM primers...not sure what recipe but he said I can call him and ask if/when I have issues.
I don't get how some people are have soooo much bad luck on this round like johnnys reloading and iraqverteran8888 on youtube and I think they are about the only ones on youtube that don't think much of the Valkyrie. I'm happy to say I've seen more good than bad, even on the forums, I've seen good especially this one.
See what you all think of iraqs video on the Valkyrie:
I'm not posting johnnys as I read some of the comments on a thread here.
I had contacted Brian in the Snipershide youtube videos on some concerns I had with rifle, like why one box of factory ammo shoots great then I grab another and all hell breaks.... he was telling me that a person needs to shoot several to a box of ammo that one is going to use to get that coppers fouling and powder in the bore(sorta like seasoning it to that ammo) and that mine needs to break in more.....
I'm getting anywhere from .570 ctc 5 shot group to 1.235 ctc 8 shot group all at 100 yards with factory 88 eld-m's at an average of 2676fps in a 24" barrel, 43 es, 17sd with the weather at 72F, Station pressure at 29.01, DA at 2112 and humity at 35%.....I'm pretty excited for reloading for the first time and with this round. He also said some of his loads used varget and FGMM primers...not sure what recipe but he said I can call him and ask if/when I have issues.
I don't get how some people are have soooo much bad luck on this round like johnnys reloading and iraqverteran8888 on youtube and I think they are about the only ones on youtube that don't think much of the Valkyrie. I'm happy to say I've seen more good than bad, even on the forums, I've seen good especially this one.
See what you all think of iraqs video on the Valkyrie:
I'm not posting johnnys as I read some of the comments on a thread here.
It directly conflicts with Franks video about being able to stabilize the new long bullets in a 1-7" twist. Frank shows video to 2112. As much as I could watch the video, this guys shows himself and short range goups. To make that 2112 yd. range, the bullets have to be VERY stable coming out of the muzzle. So, I'm not thinking the twist is the issue. At least with the 80-90 gr. bullets.
Jim Gilliland has put over 4000+ rounds through his. You could check his Instagram for more info. No degradation in accuracy
Yes, makes me think Frank knows what he’s doing and this guy don’t know what he’s doing or has bad luck with buying bad chambered barrels in this cartridge and is now trashing it.
I don’t know why/what he’s doing wrong but if people see that video, people are likely to get soured on the round right away which sucks.
I know of a couple on another forum that him and his wife has Valkyrie AR15s and this caliber is what they choose to do their very first 1000yrd shots and they did it with factory ammo, they were very happy and I’m going to do the same with this cartridge too!!!
Like I said you have people like veteran saying THE complete opposite of what Frank and Brian, Gavin from gavintoobe, west dessert shooter......the list goes on are saying, that has had great experience with this cartridge.
Honestly I haven’t seen too many negative forum posts or posts on the Facebook forums either that are bad, so that tells me, that like on the other thread here about YouTube Reloaders/shooters to take some YouTube channels with a grain of salt!
He did have a few interesting points, but disagree with a few things in the video, specifically on the stabilizing ability of a 7T and need for 6.5 twist. I think a lot of people are attributing poor groups or inconsistent groups with bullet instability. While it's possible to get bad groups with instability, you would be more likely to see good/okay groups at 100 that open WAY UP as you go out further and further. It's much more likely that poor grouos are a product of the load, chamber, throat, and gas port screwing up a bullet on its way out of the tube.
Anyone who has loaded a 223 knows that even 55gr FMJs can shoot like crap out of a 1:8 or 1:9 twist, and they are VERY twist stabilized for their size.
The only powder I've had consistent success with sub-moa loads is CFE223 and even then it takes a LOT of tuning to produce best results. So much so that I found I needed to start a basic OCW with .2gr powder increments because the velocity changes so quickly (about 10-15fps/.1gr of powder). After finding a good SD Node with decent precision, I then went through seating depths at .010 increments. .010 made a big difference between groups. Here is a picture of of recent 88 ELD CFE223 development done specifically for suppressor:
Top row is seating depth test of same charge 25.4gr CFE223, middle row is confirmation of the 2.270" OAL shot the next day. Bottom row is gas tuning (first is adjustment up, and then shot on another target while getting bolt to cycle perfectly, then next two are with correct gas).
The middle row group at 1.05" is an unsuppressed group with the same load.
Also, gas block and spring tuning helped significantly. With +2 gas systems and long barrels, the dwell time is incredibly long on 22+ barrels so timing the extraction point is critical to ensure consistent extraction AFTER bullet has left the barrel rather than during bullet travel.
If shooting suppressed, my best loads for unsuppressed shooting are NOT the same as for suppressed. They are about .2-.4gr different from one another (generally lower) which speaks to the issue of tuning gas and pressure timing even more.
Essentially, I think this catridge can be picky: you need a solid barrel mfg, good reamer, gas/buffer tuning, and very good reloading testing techniques to achieve good results, all in addition to being a very good gas gun shooter (which is a perishable skill).
Additionally, there aren't a lot of good single base powders that have known performance that meet the pressure needs for this round (i.e. temp stable and slow burn rate). CFE223 and BLC2 are slow but they are ball Double base powders. XBR8208 & Varget are too fast to achieve good velocity and H4350 is too bulky/slow. It's almost like we need an H4350 Short cut powder to create a slow but less bulky powder that's temp stable.
Wrote way more than expected so I'm leaving it there. Lol
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You make a really good point. There are so many factors that go into tuning a super tight shooting load.
Added: Factory loads have to shoot across the spectrum. So far, most of the factory loads I've been seeing are doing an outstanding job of it.
Part of the issue I see is the semi Auto platform and most of these guys just don't drive the rifles well.
I do think it's something other than twist as I have shot, 90s, 88s, 75s and 62s out of mine, all those are factory ammo, and I had zero issues with accuracy. The 90s I waited on until I was told the problem with that initial load was fixed and the 90 stuff we shot was sub-MOA, which honestly was the last holdout to check. Everything else was sub 1/2 MOA for me.
Because we shoot both Semi Auto and bolt action variants, I think we had a good handle on what it capable of delivering.
Taking these round from 100 yards to 2112 yards, and also shooting it competition, I really like it and the only downside I saw was needing more time to understand the wind changes after 600-700 yards depending on the load.
The elevation is no issue, it shoots pretty darn flat, but after 600 the wind really starts to play with it and if you want accuracy you have to stay on top of the wind call.
Inside its money, and at 100 yards the groups were no issue at all. Why people are focused on two guys who had bad luck is beyond me.
A lot of this speculation stuff is the issue thing guys said about the 6.5CM too, it was a FAD right up until the Army said it worked better then everyone started shutting up about the 6.5CM.
I do think it's something other than twist as I have shot, 90s, 88s, 75s and 62s out of mine, all those are factory ammo, and I had zero issues with accuracy. The 90s I waited on until I was told the problem with that initial load was fixed and the 90 stuff we shot was sub-MOA, which honestly was the last holdout to check. Everything else was sub 1/2 MOA for me.
Because we shoot both Semi Auto and bolt action variants, I think we had a good handle on what it capable of delivering.
Taking these round from 100 yards to 2112 yards, and also shooting it competition, I really like it and the only downside I saw was needing more time to understand the wind changes after 600-700 yards depending on the load.
The elevation is no issue, it shoots pretty darn flat, but after 600 the wind really starts to play with it and if you want accuracy you have to stay on top of the wind call.
Inside its money, and at 100 yards the groups were no issue at all. Why people are focused on two guys who had bad luck is beyond me.
A lot of this speculation stuff is the issue thing guys said about the 6.5CM too, it was a FAD right up until the Army said it worked better then everyone started shutting up about the 6.5CM.
Thanks lowlight for your experience, expertise and wisdom into explaining what your thoughts were on this video.....it kind of had me puzzled at how so many people have and have had such great success with the Valkyrie and these guys just can’t figure it out if it hit them. Hell even the Facebook forums are chocked full of success, people are taking deer out to 500yrds with this cartridge with NO issue! I have seen this video posted on the .224 Valkyrie Facebook forums as well as the few people that commented on that are having the same issue with brass but that seems to be it....have you and Brian had the same issues with brass?
Maybe they just didn’t talk to the right people and look in the right places for their information on this cartridge lol.
When I first seen the title on the YouTube video you and Brian did, I thought NO WAY, never thought anyone would ever test it like you all did.....made me feel like I had chosen wisely from the get go when I first seen this cartridge in January-February that I will have this cartridge and then I decided to redo a factory sps varmint .223 to the Valkyrie via remage! I may never be able to shoot the range you all did, but 1000 seems to be very capable with the Valkyrie.
This forum has been the best forum for just about everything gun related and nice to others and their ideas that I have ever been on, very much appreciate what you do here Frank!!
I am working on getting some barrel scope images, as I spoke to the guys today with over 6000 rounds through a Valkyrie.
I asked them to cut it, and they said No, it was still shooting, so I asked for borescope images at least.
But I am trying to get some extra data on barrel life right now
I asked them to cut it, and they said No, it was still shooting, so I asked for borescope images at least.
But I am trying to get some extra data on barrel life right now
This thread is about to cost me money! Everytime I read new posts, I want to buy/build a bolt Valkyrie even more. I see either an MPA 224V bolt or other custom action 224V in my future.
It's easy on wallet, shoulder and gives great practice reading wind but with similar drop to a 6.5CM 140 out to 700 or so and beyond that it's still in the ballpark. If a bolt can push 88/90gr at 2900+ accurately, like Mike and Frank did in bolt gun video, it's a good trainer. My gasser will push them 2800+ but at the expense of brass and moderate precision, so they've been backed down to 2680.
The 22 Creed has it's place if you really just want to toss a light bullet REALLY fast, but it seems like barrel life will be the killer. Could be nice for dedicated sub 900yard competition rifle when conditions for spotting misses allow. I'd just be concerned about less skilled spotters not recording hits with either cartridge.
It's easy on wallet, shoulder and gives great practice reading wind but with similar drop to a 6.5CM 140 out to 700 or so and beyond that it's still in the ballpark. If a bolt can push 88/90gr at 2900+ accurately, like Mike and Frank did in bolt gun video, it's a good trainer. My gasser will push them 2800+ but at the expense of brass and moderate precision, so they've been backed down to 2680.
The 22 Creed has it's place if you really just want to toss a light bullet REALLY fast, but it seems like barrel life will be the killer. Could be nice for dedicated sub 900yard competition rifle when conditions for spotting misses allow. I'd just be concerned about less skilled spotters not recording hits with either cartridge.
See, I don’t shoot competitions so I’m not that concerned about points. Where I go shoot prairie dogs it’s really dusty 90% of the time, and I can spot 55 grain splash at 1000 yards. Not that I’m accurate at 1000 yards with 55 grains, it’s just that they are really cheap to reload so you send five instead of one and see if the wind is smiling on you that day.
Here ya go.....
Not the best group but it’ll improve with time and ammo down the barrel, think I have only 120 rounds down the tube ....not sure if I have what they call the “bad” reamer chamber or not, will find out when I start reloading for it, but this was probably close to the first criterion 6.5 twist barrels done so I don’t know at this time.
I called to ask what reamer they used and all I got was saami spec, don’t know who’s either maybe jgs or ptg. It shoots a damn sight better than the factory rem it was!
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Yes. I hadn’t made it to three. That’s one more braincell than I have.
I get both of those with regards to killing critters, I meant more for matches and whatnot
My thought process was low recoil, laser, short barrel (18.5"), critter killing truck gun for night thumping -- .22 Creed fit that glove the best.
Barrel swapping to .224V (24") for when it's range time -- pound some rounds with factory ammo availability and good barrel life.
Barrel swapping to .224V (24") for when it's range time -- pound some rounds with factory ammo availability and good barrel life.
In my opinion, it’s not too great for matches do to the velocity cap. No point in putting a governor on your Lamborghini so you can play with go carts.
Get the 22 creed for blowing up critters, and take the Valkyrie or .223ai out for matches.
In my opinion the great thing about a 22cm is speed. You can easily get a heavy 22 bullet to 3150 (speed for match guns) out of much shorter barrels. Or if you want extreme speeds you can do that as well in a 24-26 inch barrels(3500)
An 88 gr bullet at 3200 is an amazing killer on all typical southern game. Pigs deer coyotes etc.....
Looking at the numbers my 18inch and my 22 inch 22cm’s hang with my 26 inch 6xc with dtacs out to about 1100 yds because of speed.
A Valkyrie just doesn’t have the ass/speed to be a viable long range cartridge in my opinion. You just can’t get those bullets to do what they are designed to do at the slow speeds that the Valkyrie produces.
An 88 gr bullet at 3200 is an amazing killer on all typical southern game. Pigs deer coyotes etc.....
Looking at the numbers my 18inch and my 22 inch 22cm’s hang with my 26 inch 6xc with dtacs out to about 1100 yds because of speed.
A Valkyrie just doesn’t have the ass/speed to be a viable long range cartridge in my opinion. You just can’t get those bullets to do what they are designed to do at the slow speeds that the Valkyrie produces.
https://www.primalrights.com/library/cartridge-guides/22-creedmoor
Better get a barrel nutI'll stick with the 22-250.
Interesting article, but kinda dumb. "Northern yotes are tough and can take 52gr rds from 22-250 & 22-243", the solution is heavy bullets from a similar case? Why not just run heavy bullets in those calibers. Barrel life on a 22-250 isnt going to be much better than the 22 creed/22-250ai. Sure, maybe 150rds, but then you have that 22-250 case that is funky shaped. Stretches like it is it's job and feeds like crap from an ai mag. If factory ammo isn't a requirement, and feeding from an ai mag is, 22creed/22-250ai is better choice. I think there will be alot of factory ammo for 22creed, enough that it eclipses 22-250.
You didn’t read the rest of the thread then, did you?
Here’s just a couple of the many posts in this thread that point out you don’t have the knowledge/experience to back up that opinion:
The .22 Creedmoor has its place in the shooting world too, so it doesn’t have to be an either/or situation.
Thanks for pointing out that I lack in knowledge and experience. I was unaware of my deficiencies. I hate being so stupid.
For whatever its worth, i never even heard of a 22cm until i read this thead . found it informative. ive always been under the assumption that smaller bullets make up for lack of mass with speed. Terminal energy performance has priority, i would think over barrel life and cost when hunting., but for target and competition, trajectory, barrel life are priority. A guy buys a dragster to beat the quarter mile, spars no expense. His buddy tells him "You should of bought a Subaru! its a better all around car then a dragster." i understand the comparison is far closer here. but define if we're hunting here or shooting when comparing.
My Valkyrie is about 5% faster than my 223s, 10% would be pushing it, i think he is just about right. The Valkyrie and 223AI have almost the same capacity.
