Just saw this round on GAPs FB page
Does anyone know how it compares to the .260 or 6.5 Creedmoor
Does anyone know how it compares to the .260 or 6.5 Creedmoor
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22 Creedmoor
- Thread starter The salmon
- Start date
I built a 22x47 Lapua as soon as the brass was available and it shot great, the case capacity isjust under the 22-250. Now that Lapua is making 22-250 I think I would go with the 22-250 instead of the 22x47L or a 22 Creedmore, but then I am very partial to Lapua brass.
I am not trying to toot my own horn here but I asked them to develop a caliber that would let me run a 223 bullet fast and accurately with reliable feeding. The answer came in the way of a joke between George and Josh @ Copper Creek.
We decided to try and neck down 6mm Creedmoor brass and see what happened. Parts were ordered, reamer came in and it just happened to work out perfectly. The barrel I run is a gain twist Bartlein. We are pushing a moderate load of Hodgdon Hybrid under a 75gr AMAX. With the suppressor I hit 3415 with the suppressor and 3400 without it.
I am keeping an accurate count on barrel life by storing all the fired brass in a container and not reloading it as I go. I will shoot new brass until the barrel is burnt out. So far I am approaching 1300 and the barrel looks fine. Our best guess is 2500-3000 rounds and it will take a dive.
The rifle is EXTREMELY accurate. Its easy to shoot due to the weight of the rig and the low recoil. I have taken out several good sized coyote with head shots. A glancing blow at 200 yards removed half of ones skull.
Josh @ Copper Creek shot a group at 700 yards that was EASILY under 1.75" in high winds. I have recorded similar sized groups at 700 and 800 yards. This is a very promising caliber. I think eventually it will take off as a varmint hunting caliber or overall fun caliber at the range. This is not a match rifle caliber at all, it just gets to hot.
We have not played around with other bullet weights yet, but I have another barreled action coming in which I will test 55, 62, 68, 70, and 80gr projectiles. I think a 55 will hit 3600 pretty easily.
We decided to try and neck down 6mm Creedmoor brass and see what happened. Parts were ordered, reamer came in and it just happened to work out perfectly. The barrel I run is a gain twist Bartlein. We are pushing a moderate load of Hodgdon Hybrid under a 75gr AMAX. With the suppressor I hit 3415 with the suppressor and 3400 without it.
I am keeping an accurate count on barrel life by storing all the fired brass in a container and not reloading it as I go. I will shoot new brass until the barrel is burnt out. So far I am approaching 1300 and the barrel looks fine. Our best guess is 2500-3000 rounds and it will take a dive.
The rifle is EXTREMELY accurate. Its easy to shoot due to the weight of the rig and the low recoil. I have taken out several good sized coyote with head shots. A glancing blow at 200 yards removed half of ones skull.
Josh @ Copper Creek shot a group at 700 yards that was EASILY under 1.75" in high winds. I have recorded similar sized groups at 700 and 800 yards. This is a very promising caliber. I think eventually it will take off as a varmint hunting caliber or overall fun caliber at the range. This is not a match rifle caliber at all, it just gets to hot.
We have not played around with other bullet weights yet, but I have another barreled action coming in which I will test 55, 62, 68, 70, and 80gr projectiles. I think a 55 will hit 3600 pretty easily.
Here is a side by side comparison:
22CM on the left vs. 6mm Creedmoor on the right (Berger 105gr Hybrid)
22CM on the left vs. 6mm Creedmoor on the right (Berger 105gr Hybrid)
You're seeing double then.... It's looking great after 1200 rounds. It will be comparable to a 243 barrel life.
Looks like the same thing can be done with a 22-250,223 ai,243 etc just uses different parent case.
22-250
22-250AI
223AI
All have a hard time feeding from a factory magazine and require magazine modifications most of the time. This one does not require any changes..... user friendly.
243 can achieve those speeds... with a lot of powder! Not as efficient.
22-250AI
223AI
All have a hard time feeding from a factory magazine and require magazine modifications most of the time. This one does not require any changes..... user friendly.
243 can achieve those speeds... with a lot of powder! Not as efficient.
Lower PSI, We are achieving the speeds with less powder charge and a completely different powder then a 243. The burn is cleaner. As I have stated multiple times, we are still testing. But as of now, the barrel is looking good.
3400 fps is a mild load for this, I could run it upwards of 3550 that showed no pressure signs.
You guys can hate and doubt all you want but this is factual. Myself and a couple others have the rifles and are shooting it. This is not a 22-6 Creed. It is THE 22 Creedmoor.
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Ask George his opinion...... because that came straight from him.
But we all know if you don't read it on the interwebs, it can't be true!!!!
Some people may have success but with the 22-250AI you have a really steep shoulder and that can give you fits on a feeding ramp. I run a 223AI with 90gr Bergers, loaded long. I cannot single feed them and have to modify my mags to fit them. I only get about 2750 out of it but its a blast to shoot. When I want speed and low recoil, I grab the 22CM.
Let me post up a pic of what a glancing shot did to a coyote.
This was a 200 yard shot. Heavy winds and snow fall. First round impact hit at the left eye and exited behind his ear. It took the ear off and a good piece of his skull with it.
A glancing shot with a 75gr AMAX did this...... I need a picture of a full on face shot though. Will work on that one.
A glancing shot with a 75gr AMAX did this...... I need a picture of a full on face shot though. Will work on that one.
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wasn't doubting it just was wondering what the final barrel life is. Also nice shot . How long of a barrel you running with the 223 AI to shoot 90gr? 6.5 twist? Can you show pics of both?
. How long of a barrel you running with the 223 AI to shoot 90gr? 6.5 twist? Can you show pics of both?Lower PSI, We are achieving the speeds with less powder charge and a completely different powder then a 243. The burn is cleaner. As I have stated multiple times, we are still testing. But as of now, the barrel is looking good.
3400 fps is a mild load for this, I could run it upwards of 3550 that showed no pressure signs.
You guys can hate and doubt all you want but this is factual. Myself and a couple others have the rifles and are shooting it. This is not a 22-6 Creed. It is THE 22 Creedmoor.
Gotcha. Less powder, less pressure, more velocity, longer lived barrel.
so its basically the 6.5 saum of of 22s. If it gets over 2k I'm getting me one of these , might melonite it for extra life too.
, might melonite it for extra life too.
Ask George his opinion...... because that came straight from him.
But we all know if you don't read it on the interwebs, it can't be true!!!!
I'll certainly take George at his word, I was just saying I hadn't read that before and I've been considering & researching a fast twist 22-250/AI for a while.
Also figured (perhaps falsely) if the 6-250/6XC didn't have issues in AICS mags the 22-250 wouldn't either.
Don't wanna hijack a 22 Creed thread but I'm curious the specs of your 223AI rifle and 90gr VLD load...thx!
The feed issue could be easily mitigated on the 22-250AI by going to a 30 degree shoulder instead of the 40, you're going to custom order the reamer anyway and you're going to fireform anyway, so it's pretty much a wash.
Additionally, you now have 22-6.5CM equivalent with the option of just fire forming Winchester brass into your new wildcat anyway.
I looked REALLY hard at going to a 6-250 "modified" before the 6mm x 47 Lapua, but not 40 degree improved, just basically taking the nose of a 6mm BR and sticking a 22-250 case onto it. That's pretty much what you have from the 6 SLR but held about 0.14" short.
Ultimately I chose the 6x47 over the 6 Creed, 6XC, 6X, 6 SLR, etc etc for a couple of logistics reasons, not the least of which being that I acquired 600 pieces of brand new "Gold Box" Lapua brass at a screaming deal from a friend who is no longer in need of it.
This is not a new concept, it's been around the block a dozen times in various forms. High Power guys have been settting records and winning matches with the 6/250 and 6/250 modified now for at least 20 years. I ran across an old PS article from 2002 discussing how to make a 6/250 upper run reliably for space guns in the AR-10 because it had been so successful for the previous DECADE in bolt actions.
Additionally, you now have 22-6.5CM equivalent with the option of just fire forming Winchester brass into your new wildcat anyway.
I looked REALLY hard at going to a 6-250 "modified" before the 6mm x 47 Lapua, but not 40 degree improved, just basically taking the nose of a 6mm BR and sticking a 22-250 case onto it. That's pretty much what you have from the 6 SLR but held about 0.14" short.
Ultimately I chose the 6x47 over the 6 Creed, 6XC, 6X, 6 SLR, etc etc for a couple of logistics reasons, not the least of which being that I acquired 600 pieces of brand new "Gold Box" Lapua brass at a screaming deal from a friend who is no longer in need of it.
This is not a new concept, it's been around the block a dozen times in various forms. High Power guys have been settting records and winning matches with the 6/250 and 6/250 modified now for at least 20 years. I ran across an old PS article from 2002 discussing how to make a 6/250 upper run reliably for space guns in the AR-10 because it had been so successful for the previous DECADE in bolt actions.
I suggested this round on another forum, posing it to gunwriters if Hornady might do a 22 and 6 CM. Personally, it's hard for me to justify a build of a barrel eater due to costs. If I want 2k bore life, I will buy a 243 or 22-250 factory, if I build I want a 6BR for bore life, but if a hunting only rifle, would consider a XC. A 22BR would have been a great round had Rem pushed their own BR line, esp in 22 and 6, WITH Appropriate 8 twist bores. Given choice I would probably choose a 22-250 or AI w/8 twist for a build, if only to have a plethora of brass and ammo options. Now IF the industry makes ready made rifles in 8 twist, AND offers AFFORDABLE brass/ammo, then I might bite. I see this as a niche round, although a good one. I would venture a factory 22-250 or even 243 will do in alot of varmints. My last few yotes were dumped w/a 6BR lobbing an amax at 2850, one a head shot at near 200 yds, taking about half its face off, it was facing me. It was a Ruger #1, that shot a sub half inch group at 330 yds, but no doubt, not a rifle for doubles It did dump my furthest deer kill at 400 yds. Speed is nice, but not always essential to success if you know where to hold or click. I would rather see the factories adopt a 6CM if only to give a fast twist option for heavy bullet shooters. Confident if Saami'd it would be set up in 8 twist rifles.
It did dump my furthest deer kill at 400 yds. Speed is nice, but not always essential to success if you know where to hold or click. I would rather see the factories adopt a 6CM if only to give a fast twist option for heavy bullet shooters. Confident if Saami'd it would be set up in 8 twist rifles.
Nice thing about this 22CM.... it takes no fire forming. Just neck down, trim, load and fire! All the other rounds are ok, but I wanted something different and effective. This is what we came up with. Most of the credit goes to George and Josh Lapin, but I gave my requirements and this was the brain child.
wasn't doubting it just was wondering what the final barrel life is. Also nice shot
I might throw up a comparison sometime soon. They are nearly identical in looks minus the actions. I am using the same barrel from the 22CM. Its a gain twist 7.5-6.5 if I can recall. Been shooting this for about a year now.
I run a 24" barrel on the 223AI and 26" on the 22CM.
I suggested this round on another forum, posing it to gunwriters if Hornady might do a 22 and 6 CM. Personally, it's hard for me to justify a build of a barrel eater due to costs. If I want 2k bore life, I will buy a 243 or 22-250 factory, if I build I want a 6BR for bore life, but if a hunting only rifle, would consider a XC. A 22BR would have been a great round had Rem pushed their own BR line, esp in 22 and 6, WITH Appropriate 8 twist bores. Given choice I would probably choose a 22-250 or AI w/8 twist for a build, if only to have a plethora of brass and ammo options. Now IF the industry makes ready made rifles in 8 twist, AND offers AFFORDABLE brass/ammo, then I might bite. I see this as a niche round, although a good one. I would venture a factory 22-250 or even 243 will do in alot of varmints. My last few yotes were dumped w/a 6BR lobbing an amax at 2850, one a head shot at near 200 yds, taking about half its face off, it was facing me. It was a Ruger #1, that shot a sub half inch group at 330 yds, but no doubt, not a rifle for doubles
That's all fine and dandy but not relevant to the point of this cartridge. We are talking a caliber loaded from brass thats easily attainable thru GAP and a very common bullet. It's not rocket science to load this stuff up and requires no fire forming.
Speed is essential if you want to keep the pelt. Running a smaller projo at high speeds kills humanely and does minor damage on soft tissues.
You can kill shit with about any caliber, I have killed animals with a 22 lr all the way up to my 338 Lapua and Norma Mag. Shot placement has a lot to do with it but so does picking the right TOOL FOR THE JOB. This is just another tool in the work shed.
It's nice to have options
22-250ai and 22 cm should be about the same animal...... or no
I have a fast twist 22-250 several years now and I ran a modest load at 3200fps w an 80amax from a 24" barrel but I chopped it to 22" and I'm down the 3125fps, and yes it most definitely has feeding issues but only from a 10rn AICS mag. I can run 7 w/o issue, but put 10 in and the system becomes a cluster F**k. From a 5rnd AICS mag no problems
This round seems like a winner, hell when my 250 runs out I may go Creedmoor
I have a fast twist 22-250 several years now and I ran a modest load at 3200fps w an 80amax from a 24" barrel but I chopped it to 22" and I'm down the 3125fps, and yes it most definitely has feeding issues but only from a 10rn AICS mag. I can run 7 w/o issue, but put 10 in and the system becomes a cluster F**k. From a 5rnd AICS mag no problems
This round seems like a winner, hell when my 250 runs out I may go Creedmoor
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Nice thing about this 22CM.... it takes no fire forming. Just neck down, trim, load and fire! All the other rounds are ok, but I wanted something different and effective. This is what we came up with. Most of the credit goes to George and Josh Lapin, but I gave my requirements and this was the brain child.
True, there's no fireforming however having seen the 6/250 "Modified" in action, the fireforming rounds were cutting well inside 3/4" at 200yd. I'm not always against fireforming cases if a little thought is put into how the cases are loaded first.
An interesting bit of history:
The 30 TC case that the 6.5CM comes from is made from the 300 Savage case with some minor shoulder/neck geometry options..
300 Savage became the 250-300 Savage, which became the 22-250 Rem... which we are arguing the validity of against the 22 Creedmoor. The 22 Creedmoor could be called the 22-6mm-6.5mm-30-22/250-300 Savage Modified.. though I'd fully admit, 22Creedmoor is easier to say.
The 22CM is effective and the results you're getting are impressive, and it's another tool in the shed and it's something different. For guys that like wildcats (and I'm admittedly one of them with a 240 Tomahawk coming) it's neat. I look forward to hearing what your final barrel numbers end up being.
Can you post some groups when you hit 1500, 2000, 2500?
Yes I can post groups as the round count hits those numbers. Let me see if I can find the groups from initial testing and once I hit 500 rounds.
I had thought that a 22 CM would be cool. We machined a 1-8" twist 22" 22-250 barrel for my DTA. I'm getting as fast as 3300 out of an 80 grain SMK at about 1/4 MOA at 100. It is crazy fun out to 1000 yards. However, I am not expecting much in the way of barrel life.
Having said all of that, I wish you would have come up with this 6 months earlier. Mine would definitely be a 22 CM. I will be looking back here for updates, and really appreciate you sharing this.
Ty
Having said all of that, I wish you would have come up with this 6 months earlier. Mine would definitely be a 22 CM. I will be looking back here for updates, and really appreciate you sharing this.
Ty
The name, and it creates confusion with other readers when its being called two things. Just as 6 Creedmoor became a derivative of 6.5 Creedmoor, this is the same thing.
These cartridges are the next frontier of case design, and we all get to be a part of it. Designs that include: neck length, capacity relative to bore diameter, shape of powder column, efficiency of powder burn within the column, focal point of heat and pressure during combustion, burn rate and heat of desired propellants, bearing surface of projectiles, magazine/action length, ease of loading including components, cost, desired end-usage and so on. Thanks for pushing the envelope guys - the results speak for themselves whether a guy can understand the science, applied and theoretical, or not. The least intellectual among us can understand 3000 > 1500.
Can't wait until the propellant industry produces powder with these principles in mind.
Can't wait until the propellant industry produces powder with these principles in mind.
No doubt speed and little bullets are great on yotes, alot of folks go to the 17s and 20s with great results. Never gone that route myself, but not a hardcore varmint hunter who keeps pelts. Hear the 75 amax is known to do a number on deer. I do see a niche for an 8 twist 22 and 6mm Short action round and would love to see the industry get behind it. I do prefer ready made stamped brass, ammo, as well as rifles myself. I assume 6CM brass is cheaper than 47 brass for a parent round. That helps.
When you want to stop stirring the pot, let us know. You want to go in on the 500,000 piece order to get it made?
Glad I went with the 6.5 Creedmoor. Lots of potential.
Wildcat whore.....I like that. Would someone create me a morale badge for that?
Here's what I'm thinking:
3" round....Silhouette of sexy female with no shirt and wearing tight jeans...She has a tramp stamp that reads "Wildcat Whore".
Create matching tabs that you can place around the badge that indicate your calibers.
Maybe Lowlight will sell it in the store and maybe I get a royalty?
Wildcat whore.....I like that. Would someone create me a morale badge for that?
Here's what I'm thinking:
3" round....Silhouette of sexy female with no shirt and wearing tight jeans...She has a tramp stamp that reads "Wildcat Whore".
Create matching tabs that you can place around the badge that indicate your calibers.
Maybe Lowlight will sell it in the store and maybe I get a royalty?
Is there something about the 6 Creedmoor's case design that makes it better for a .224 application than, say, 6.5x47?
Case capacity is a given...but is there also a brass prep component the Lapua requires the Creed does not?
Case capacity is a given...but is there also a brass prep component the Lapua requires the Creed does not?
Probably not. The only thing that might swing the needle either direction would be if an ideal powder (cool-burning and accurate) seemed to really prefer one case/bullet combo over the other. Sometimes all these factors find a moment of balance, like the 6.5 SAUM, and you catch lightning in a bottle. And then there is the primer size if that matters to you.
