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Can anyone tell me an equivalent of a 22 mag at 100y.... as far as difficulty? For example-
22 mag @ 100y = 308 @ 800y
22 mag @ 100y = 308 @ 800y
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22 mag vs 308....
- Thread starter KOPFJÄGER13
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Not really concerned with energy, though interesting...... more like if the 22 at 100 is the same challenge as a 308 at 800 or a 338 at 1500....
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Calling the wind is what makes distance shooting difficult. Relative to calling wind to within a few mph at 800 yards, calling wind to within a few mph at 100 is pretty easy. Likewise, positional shooting is just easier at close range.
The club where I've been shooting matches hosts centerfire and 22lr matches. I don't think they are intentionally making the 22lr match substantially easier than the centerfire match, but my scores are WAY better with the 22. As much as PRS is about "the Indian not the arrow" I'm starting to think PRS style 22lr is a gear race. A precise rifle and consistent ammo can allow a middling marksman like myself to shoot high score.
To your specific question, I think a PRS barricade at 100 with a rimfire would be about equivalent to about 400 yards, with the same barricade and scaled targets...
The club where I've been shooting matches hosts centerfire and 22lr matches. I don't think they are intentionally making the 22lr match substantially easier than the centerfire match, but my scores are WAY better with the 22. As much as PRS is about "the Indian not the arrow" I'm starting to think PRS style 22lr is a gear race. A precise rifle and consistent ammo can allow a middling marksman like myself to shoot high score.
To your specific question, I think a PRS barricade at 100 with a rimfire would be about equivalent to about 400 yards, with the same barricade and scaled targets...
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Personally, I shoot 22lr for what it is, not as some direct analog of centerfire rifle. Every trigger press is a useful press. What is the wind doing? Was that off-target-impact due to a bad wind call? Ammo variation? Fundamental shooter error?
Can you call wind to within 1 mph at 100 yards? Can you do that at the firing point? The wind blows a rimfire bullet around a lot. It is easier to call wind to within 1 mph at the firing point because you can use a wind meter. You can KNOW what the wind is doing there, but can only infer anywhere else.
My dope chart says that a 10 mph wind will blow a 22lr bullet 1.4 mil off course at 100 yards. A 10 mph wind will blow a 6.5 creedmoor bullet about 0.1 mil off course at the same distance. A 1 mph wind will blow a 22lr bullet off course more than a 10 mph wind will move a 6.5mm. A 1 mph wind is essentially imperceptible.
Honestly, I think the best part of rimfire shooting is trigger time/cost. I can shoot a lot of 22lr for what I can shoot a modest amount of centerfire.
Can you call wind to within 1 mph at 100 yards? Can you do that at the firing point? The wind blows a rimfire bullet around a lot. It is easier to call wind to within 1 mph at the firing point because you can use a wind meter. You can KNOW what the wind is doing there, but can only infer anywhere else.
My dope chart says that a 10 mph wind will blow a 22lr bullet 1.4 mil off course at 100 yards. A 10 mph wind will blow a 6.5 creedmoor bullet about 0.1 mil off course at the same distance. A 1 mph wind will blow a 22lr bullet off course more than a 10 mph wind will move a 6.5mm. A 1 mph wind is essentially imperceptible.
Honestly, I think the best part of rimfire shooting is trigger time/cost. I can shoot a lot of 22lr for what I can shoot a modest amount of centerfire.
Makes no sense to compare. Even shooting a .308 on one day is not comparable to shooting the same combo in another condition. ie, wind.
You will never get a number that says if I can shoot my .22 Mag well at x yards I am as skilled as someone who shoots a .308 at 456 yards.
You will never get a number that says if I can shoot my .22 Mag well at x yards I am as skilled as someone who shoots a .308 at 456 yards.
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I actually think there can be a comparison.... a 223 at 500 is relative to a 308 at 900ish, there just is similarities that warrant a comparison between 22mag and others, anything can be compaired with relativity
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I am going to guess .
a ( .22 mag.) hitting @ 400 yard target X . Is equal to .308 win. lobbing smk's at 1000 yard target X .
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Yes, you are correct. Muzzle blast, recoil, wind, drop, rifle weight, eyesight, nerves all make zero difference.
I actually was told yesterday that the National Matches are now going to be shot in a guys basement in Peoria Il with BB guns and the scores translated to 1000 yards with a 300 magnum. Going to save a lot of trouble, target pulling etc.
I actually was told yesterday that the National Matches are now going to be shot in a guys basement in Peoria Il with BB guns and the scores translated to 1000 yards with a 300 magnum. Going to save a lot of trouble, target pulling etc.
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don't know what your end goal is ? . but if you hang an 8" or smaller 'round' steel @ 400 yrd. on hot windy day . And then shoot with a .22 mag. rimfire . You will gain/learn winds and mirage .
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I do not have a direct comparison for you, but I will add that for me it becomes an equipment limitation past 400 yards with the 22. For instance with a 100 yard zero, at 300 yards I have to dial and then hold to get to approx 11.4 mils. At 400 I'm at the bottom of the reticle. Perhaps you could test the limits of your .308 setup and then compare that to your 22 setup. Interesting question.
Look up Finn accuracy ( I think?) they have taken the time to make a spread sheet, word doc, to compare cartridge trajectory’s , 22lr @ I think 225 yds is very close to 308 @1000, come ups , wind drift etc , they may have information on 22mag . I think I get what your wanting to do as I want todo the same thing , also the trigger time really helps , good mike and keep us informed on your results .
You are going to have to first compare accuracy potential of both 308 and 22 mag. It's not apples to apples, 22 mag might be 2" at 100Y and 308 might be 3/4".
Then onto wind drift comparison of both on a ballistic app.
Choose your comprmise for size of target. 2 moa sized plate at 200Y for 22 mag will be a challenge due to the poor vertical and that's not including wind. 2 moa sized plate for a 308 at 400Y isn't much of a challenge in the vertical aspect but might be challenging depending on how much wind there is.
For yourself it'd be a fun experiment just to test the two out on steel or paper and take notes.
I know one thing! I have a nice 22lr and a nice 22mag, the 22lr with tested match ammo is nearly twice more accurate.
Then onto wind drift comparison of both on a ballistic app.
Choose your comprmise for size of target. 2 moa sized plate at 200Y for 22 mag will be a challenge due to the poor vertical and that's not including wind. 2 moa sized plate for a 308 at 400Y isn't much of a challenge in the vertical aspect but might be challenging depending on how much wind there is.
For yourself it'd be a fun experiment just to test the two out on steel or paper and take notes.
I know one thing! I have a nice 22lr and a nice 22mag, the 22lr with tested match ammo is nearly twice more accurate.
Dialing a scope to the correct elevation/windage for the yardage is not what makes long range shooting difficult. What makes long range shooting difficult is calling the wind- especially to within a few mph. It is exponentially easier to do this at close range. Shooting a rimfire at short range and expecting to mystically be a better shooter at long range is a fool's errand. (Hell, I've won the last 3 22lr matches at our local club- against the same shooters that are shooting top scores at the centerfire match- but haven't cracked the top 1/3 of shooters at the centerfire match.) Shoot the 22mag for what it is- good trigger time, fundamentals training, wind estimation practice. This will make you a better overall shooter, but only shooting at 1000y will make you better at 1000y.
^^^^^^THIS
If you want to know you shoot at 1000 yards only one way to do it. Shoot at 1000 yards.
Not sure idea that you can do it otherwise even got started??
If you like shooting your 22 Mag enjoy it. (I do)
I just don’t kid myself that it relates to 1000 yard shooting.
If you want to know you shoot at 1000 yards only one way to do it. Shoot at 1000 yards.
Not sure idea that you can do it otherwise even got started??
If you like shooting your 22 Mag enjoy it. (I do)
I just don’t kid myself that it relates to 1000 yard shooting.
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Dont misunderstand me, I dont beleive that i can shoot a 22mag at a certain distance and expect it to be the same as a 308 at 1,000. I realize only a 308 is like a 308 at 1,000.... i bought this 22 as a training aid and im just trying to see how it relates and can improve (if it can) my long range game...
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What is considered accurate from a 22mag? Im getting 15 round groups under an inch at 100y and was thinking that was good.......
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Just a factory ruger precision & hornady 30 gr vmax .... it will hit golf balls between 100-125 yards all day long ..... i am not bragging at all, i seriously just figured that was the norm
I think I know where the OP is going with this....and there are a few issues with his premise.
First off 22 mag is not thought of being that accurate....it is more thought of being a hunting cartridge, where as minute of squirrel is thought to be good enough, Where 22lr is more along the lines of where the people that want accurate tend to go. I can see where the OP thought more oomph would be what he would want however, this is not the best tool for the job.
I would suggest a small bore silhouette type game.....you do know the distances, and flinging a 22lr out to 100m off hand at a target about the size of your hand does take some skill all the way around....you do have to read the wind, the bullet is smaller, lighter, slower...bla bla bla. And the drop from say 25m (where the targets start) is pretty drastic, you you learn to read across different distances, dial in your scope for those distances. ... Then it is just fun, inexpensive.
You will learn/sharpen the same skills that it takes to shoot more powerful rifles at greater distances, plus going out to 100 means the places you can play the game are in more clubs and such....you just do not need as much space.
A 22mag hitting golf balls at that distance is pretty darn good....real good.
First off 22 mag is not thought of being that accurate....it is more thought of being a hunting cartridge, where as minute of squirrel is thought to be good enough, Where 22lr is more along the lines of where the people that want accurate tend to go. I can see where the OP thought more oomph would be what he would want however, this is not the best tool for the job.
I would suggest a small bore silhouette type game.....you do know the distances, and flinging a 22lr out to 100m off hand at a target about the size of your hand does take some skill all the way around....you do have to read the wind, the bullet is smaller, lighter, slower...bla bla bla. And the drop from say 25m (where the targets start) is pretty drastic, you you learn to read across different distances, dial in your scope for those distances. ... Then it is just fun, inexpensive.
You will learn/sharpen the same skills that it takes to shoot more powerful rifles at greater distances, plus going out to 100 means the places you can play the game are in more clubs and such....you just do not need as much space.
A 22mag hitting golf balls at that distance is pretty darn good....real good.
22wmr...produced by CCI and then labeled FiocchiUSA, Federal, Remington, Hornady, Norma.
Also produced by Winchester, then labeled Browning.
Also produced by Sellier and Bellot, Armscor, Aguila and RWS.
Only one I haven't tried is the RWS.
All the rest, 2.5 inch spread, or worse, for 50 shots at 100 yards from a barrel block rig.
At 200 yards the cartridge defects cause some outlandish strays.
Winchester throws some so far out they won't stay on the backer.
Also produced by Winchester, then labeled Browning.
Also produced by Sellier and Bellot, Armscor, Aguila and RWS.
Only one I haven't tried is the RWS.
All the rest, 2.5 inch spread, or worse, for 50 shots at 100 yards from a barrel block rig.
At 200 yards the cartridge defects cause some outlandish strays.
Winchester throws some so far out they won't stay on the backer.
I want to say winchester has some 22mag that is subsonic for cans and such. I know you are thinking well what is the point, might as well shoot LR and it would be cheaper....lots cheaper.
I have a feeling at the ranges you are talking about is where the bullet is dropping to subsonic and we all know what happens after that...things go wonky.
But I really think that past the basics of breathing, finger control, position.....bla bla bla a rimfire is not going to give you too much.
I also shoot air rifles, and that is a good way to keep all those "skills that you use no matter the gun" sharp....plus when it is -10 outside with the wind blowing at 100mph you stay nice and warm in the garage.
Supersonic transition, eh?
Do you have any research studies that supports that concept.
I can't find one.
The only study that turns up is one done with the SMK bthp.
A long slender needle nosed tail heavy projectile.
Not a short stubby round nosed bullet.
Studies done with the round nose show increased wind drift.
No reports of problems with transition.
I've been sending rimfire at 200 yards for almost a year.
I'm not seeing anything related to the transition.
Only problems caused by cartridge defects.
If you can link a study showing the round nose projectile and the transition
I'd appreciate it. I can't find one.
Here's two targets shot at 200 yards with similar projectiles, 42 grain Eley 22lr.
Eley Contact rated 1090 fps
www.rimfirecentral.com
Eley Force rated 1250 fps
www.rimfirecentral.com
Under worse conditions the hi v 22lr did better, even with the supposed "transition".
Do you have any research studies that supports that concept.
I can't find one.
The only study that turns up is one done with the SMK bthp.
A long slender needle nosed tail heavy projectile.
Not a short stubby round nosed bullet.
Studies done with the round nose show increased wind drift.
No reports of problems with transition.
I've been sending rimfire at 200 yards for almost a year.
I'm not seeing anything related to the transition.
Only problems caused by cartridge defects.
If you can link a study showing the round nose projectile and the transition
I'd appreciate it. I can't find one.
Here's two targets shot at 200 yards with similar projectiles, 42 grain Eley 22lr.
Eley Contact rated 1090 fps
50 at 200
That explains a bunch about why we have so much trouble with the 200yd. (properly scaled) rams at my friend Duke's Thorn Hollow Range. They sit at the end of a valley up between two rugged bluffs, the swirls,uneven heating and shadows are pretty challenging (six flags can all be going different...
www.rimfirecentral.com
Eley Force rated 1250 fps
50 at 200
That explains a bunch about why we have so much trouble with the 200yd. (properly scaled) rams at my friend Duke's Thorn Hollow Range. They sit at the end of a valley up between two rugged bluffs, the swirls,uneven heating and shadows are pretty challenging (six flags can all be going different...
www.rimfirecentral.com
Under worse conditions the hi v 22lr did better, even with the supposed "transition".
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Supersonic transition, eh?
Do you have any research studies that supports that concept.
I can't find one.
The only study that turns up is one done with the SMK bthp.
A long slender needle nosed tail heavy projectile.
Not a short stubby round nosed bullet.
Studies done with the round nose show increased wind drift.
No reports of problems with transition.
I've been sending rimfire at 200 yards for almost a year.
I'm not seeing anything related to the transition.
Only problems caused by cartridge defects.
If you can link a study showing the round nose projectile and the transition
I'd appreciate it. I can't find one.
Here's two targets shot at 200 yards with similar projectiles, 42 grain Eley 22lr.
Eley Contact rated 1090 fps
50 at 200
That explains a bunch about why we have so much trouble with the 200yd. (properly scaled) rams at my friend Duke's Thorn Hollow Range. They sit at the end of a valley up between two rugged bluffs, the swirls,uneven heating and shadows are pretty challenging (six flags can all be going different...
Eley Force rated 1250 fps
50 at 200
That explains a bunch about why we have so much trouble with the 200yd. (properly scaled) rams at my friend Duke's Thorn Hollow Range. They sit at the end of a valley up between two rugged bluffs, the swirls,uneven heating and shadows are pretty challenging (six flags can all be going different...
Under worse conditions the hi v 22lr did better, even with the supposed "transition".
Nope not at all.
I also shoot air rifles, some pretty powerful....and I do know without any shadow of a doubt that if you have a rifle that shoots super sonic, you want that pellet to stay supersonic till it hits the target....as the pellet will really do strange things when it goes subsonic....accuracy will to to hell. So usually when you see a gun that says it shoots this really light pellet at 1400fps, to hit anything you shoot a heavy pellet to get it down in the 900-ish range.
Now I know bullets and pellets look different, have very...as in VERY different BC, but I THINK the same rules would apply.
I am pretty new here, I have been shooting a long time, but a friend suggested I come here as there is a ton of good info here.....if I am wrong I am here to learn.
On a side note I had two chrono's for a while and I was doing tests with rimfire....seeing what the speed was close to the gun, and again close to the target....target being 100 yards away. Problem is with rimfire ammo they.....well I am going to blame a soft loaded round for killing the down range chrono....it did sound and feel different. But before the death of the down range chrono the speed drop at 100 was pretty drastic.
I might buy another one, they are getting pretty cheap and this time I will start with "better" 22 ammo and work my way down, I will not start with thunderbolt.
I've had problems with my 17 cal pellets.
Odd strays that don't fit the mv's recorded.
Not sure if it was transition or pellet defects.
Soft metal projectiles in a metal tin rattling around does bad things to the skirt.
As the pellet exits the muzzle tipping occurs due to uneven pressure release.
See if you can find any studies done on supersonic transition.
Maybe you can find one...my attempts to find any done on round nose bullets came up empty.
The studies done on the SMK bthp show the change in center of pressure causes a wobble.
The problem is that particular bullet shape/weight.
Later studies done with other versions of the bthp didn't show the same extreme effects.
Trying to apply the results from one shape to another doesn't work.
Aerodynamics have different effects as a result of projectile surface profiles.
Odd strays that don't fit the mv's recorded.
Not sure if it was transition or pellet defects.
Soft metal projectiles in a metal tin rattling around does bad things to the skirt.
As the pellet exits the muzzle tipping occurs due to uneven pressure release.
See if you can find any studies done on supersonic transition.
Maybe you can find one...my attempts to find any done on round nose bullets came up empty.
The studies done on the SMK bthp show the change in center of pressure causes a wobble.
The problem is that particular bullet shape/weight.
Later studies done with other versions of the bthp didn't show the same extreme effects.
Trying to apply the results from one shape to another doesn't work.
Aerodynamics have different effects as a result of projectile surface profiles.
While they are not inexpensive, you might want to look at a LabRadar instead. The LabRadar will report velocity every .002 seconds which will give you values (slightly more often than) every yard using 22LR standard velocity. If you do get the LabRadar be sure to pickup the optional mic kit for 22.
I have seen the labradar, but never really looked into it as it was pretty spendy for a weekend hobby guy like myself. If it will tell you fps all the way down that is something that really has my interest.
Wonder if it works for pellets, the speed drop there is really amazing...we are talking hundreds of fps at those ranges.
Thanks for the heads up....I will start doing some research.....if nothing else it will stop me from having to haul two of the silly things around.
I think you are over complicating this. put both into JBM and compare the elevation and wind at different ranges. You won't get anything to line up directly but you will get close... If you really want to know this but honestly it just not that important.
Remember there are still many things you cannot simulate, recoil, mirage. It will never be a direct comparison. I shoot 22lr out to 300 yards for practice and actually some 22lr PRS type matches. More trigger time will be helpful so long as you focus on fundamentals, keep track of your progress and enjoy yourself. Focus on that and train with the 308 too.
I use the LabRadar and JBM ballistics website to calculate BC for different ammo per rifle:
Yes, the LabRadar was spendy for a 22LR hobby guy like me. But I've found it useful and a lot of shooters want to borrow it for getting data for their rifles and pistols.
Remember that the smaller the projectile, the harder it is for the LabRadar to pick it up. With 22LR I have a failure rate averaging about 10%. Of the 90% it does pickup, you have a small percentage where it doesn't get numbers out to 100 yards or the SNR (signal to noise ratio) makes the values iffy. I normally just shoot extra rounds and remove any questionable values from consideration within the spreadsheet.
While it should work on 17 caliber, I suspect that the error rate will be a bit higher.
If anyone is in my area, you're more than welcome to meet me at the local range (Eagle Eye Shooting Complex in Mt Pleasant TN) and use the LabRadar.
I am not sure but I think you guys are trying to get me sleeping on the couch
Hum, your talking 22 LR correct?
Standard ammo is subsonic, subsonic ammo the same generally the better lines. You’re way messed up because they never travel distance then have to deal with coming below 1.2 down below 1.
Hypersonic 22LR is generally to get the power for very short range hunting not for accuracy.
There are tons of studies including a very good illustration of the effects produced in the 50’s by Shell Oil. All objects going thru this space are subject to the physics.. The 168 out of stow twist, slow barrels was marginally stable with a very susceptible angle on the boatail, it was also in transonic space for sometime before the bad groups showed up on 1ooo yard targets; a bad example to use.
There IS plenty of Data and a reason even Olympic Air and small bore are all subsonic.
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The ballistic studies done with 22lr that are available on line
do not show problems with supersonic transition.
Conclusions drawn indicate increased wind drift with the supersonic 22lr compared with subsonic.
That is why subsonic is preferred for competition according to the articles I've read.
That plus the majority of supersonic 22lr is cheap bulk ammunition.
The Eley hi-v compared to it's similar weight 22lr subsonic produced same size groups at 200 yards.
If the transition is such a big deal, then where is the transition caused difference?
I only see wind and cartridge defect caused spread.
Mach at my locale is about 1128 fps (sea level and 70° F)
Do you have links to the studies you commented on, it'd be appreciated.
I'm questioning supposed claims of transition caused spread as it's not showing up in my 50 shot groups at 200 yards.
These bullets are producing 1214 fps mv down to 900 fps at the target.
Explanations would be helpful as I used to think the transition was a big deal.
But almost a year of 50 shot groups at 200 yards is showing otherwise.
do not show problems with supersonic transition.
Conclusions drawn indicate increased wind drift with the supersonic 22lr compared with subsonic.
That is why subsonic is preferred for competition according to the articles I've read.
That plus the majority of supersonic 22lr is cheap bulk ammunition.
The Eley hi-v compared to it's similar weight 22lr subsonic produced same size groups at 200 yards.
If the transition is such a big deal, then where is the transition caused difference?
I only see wind and cartridge defect caused spread.
Mach at my locale is about 1128 fps (sea level and 70° F)
Do you have links to the studies you commented on, it'd be appreciated.
I'm questioning supposed claims of transition caused spread as it's not showing up in my 50 shot groups at 200 yards.
These bullets are producing 1214 fps mv down to 900 fps at the target.
Explanations would be helpful as I used to think the transition was a big deal.
But almost a year of 50 shot groups at 200 yards is showing otherwise.
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As we are way off in the weeds.....
I am wondering if when the bullet comes down from supersonic to subsonic....is that where things start to go wonky.
Example....say (just for the sake of argument) if the bullet goes subsonic at 100 yards.....by the time it hits 200 yards will things have calmed down enough that you would not notice things going really south.
So would you see a big difference in where things hit at 90 yards, and again at 120?
I really do not know.
I do know one thing however, I have a few air rifles where you can "dial down" the power, ranging from 17 up to 25. And I do know that a pellet (very different from a bullet) just does some crazy things if you push it too fast at any kind of range. Pellets do really loose speed very quickly (this I have tested) my notes are not here but I want to say a 25 pellet going 900 at the muzzle will be doing 700 ish at 50...again depending on the pellet....and again this was before my second chrono deserved to be executed. But I still have the notes. If I keep the entire flight path under the speed of sound they still will fly true, you just have to start to lob them in like a mortar. But with things really get to that point so much more has a bigger effect on where that hole will go.....even with the 25 I will not take a shot past about 90 yards....this is where I run out of skill with that specific air rifle.
It is a fun discussion....I am learning.
I am wondering if when the bullet comes down from supersonic to subsonic....is that where things start to go wonky.
Example....say (just for the sake of argument) if the bullet goes subsonic at 100 yards.....by the time it hits 200 yards will things have calmed down enough that you would not notice things going really south.
So would you see a big difference in where things hit at 90 yards, and again at 120?
I really do not know.
I do know one thing however, I have a few air rifles where you can "dial down" the power, ranging from 17 up to 25. And I do know that a pellet (very different from a bullet) just does some crazy things if you push it too fast at any kind of range. Pellets do really loose speed very quickly (this I have tested) my notes are not here but I want to say a 25 pellet going 900 at the muzzle will be doing 700 ish at 50...again depending on the pellet....and again this was before my second chrono deserved to be executed. But I still have the notes. If I keep the entire flight path under the speed of sound they still will fly true, you just have to start to lob them in like a mortar. But with things really get to that point so much more has a bigger effect on where that hole will go.....even with the 25 I will not take a shot past about 90 yards....this is where I run out of skill with that specific air rifle.
It is a fun discussion....I am learning.
The study which most folks refer to was run on the SMK bthp.
The center of pressure at supersonic speeds is at the rear of the projectile.
As it slows the center of pressure shifts forward and as it nears the nose of the bullet
instability is caused due to the tail heavy needle nosed profile.
The instability can cause wobble/yaw/pitch and along with the axial spin
causes the bullet to stray off the original trajectory.
This only relates to the bthp, the round nose shape is quite stable according to other articles.
Eley has a couple of blurbs out that state the flat tip 22lr is even more stable...I don't know.
Again, another article on the bthp...not a round nose...different shape means different results.
Note the comment regarding tumbling and keyholing.
I'm not seeing either with the 22lr, clean holes being produced in the backer.
200 yards and through the transition zone.
Explanations? Anyone?
The center of pressure at supersonic speeds is at the rear of the projectile.
As it slows the center of pressure shifts forward and as it nears the nose of the bullet
instability is caused due to the tail heavy needle nosed profile.
The instability can cause wobble/yaw/pitch and along with the axial spin
causes the bullet to stray off the original trajectory.
This only relates to the bthp, the round nose shape is quite stable according to other articles.
Eley has a couple of blurbs out that state the flat tip 22lr is even more stable...I don't know.
Again, another article on the bthp...not a round nose...different shape means different results.
Note the comment regarding tumbling and keyholing.
I'm not seeing either with the 22lr, clean holes being produced in the backer.
200 yards and through the transition zone.
Explanations? Anyone?
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Ya know, its these kinda answers that give this forum a bad name..... rather than keeping dumbass comments to yourself, you run your mouth and confirm your a douchebag.... you aint shit & never will be in the shooting world...... now tell me how awesomely qualified you are to voice any and all your stupid comments based on your opinion of yourself.... this is a good forum where people should be able to ask questions and pick up tips from the 10% of actual proven shooters, and you certainly aint one of any level of top tier shooter.....
