• Having trouble using the site?

    Contact support

  • You Should Now Be Receiving Emails!

    The email issued mentioned earlier this week is now fixed! You may also have received previous emails that were meant to be sent over the last few days - apologies, this was a one time issue and shouldn't happen again!

223 A.I. vs 224 Valkyrie

stuff

stuff

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Jun 3, 2014
59
9
#1
Hi Everyone,

I'm interested in building 224 Valkyrie bolt gun. Watching Frank make hits at a mile and at 2112 yards really got me thinking about this neat little round.
I currently use a 223 A.I. with a 27" 1-7 twist barrel. I push the 80gr ELD-M at 3050 fps with 25.5gr of Varget. I've just started playing around with the 88gr ELD-M but don't have a consistent load worked up yet, velocity of 2850ish fps. This rifle does well on steel out to 1200 yards, the longest I've tried so far.
So my question is, will the 224 Valkyrie give me a perceivable performance improvement over my current 223 A.I.? My 224V build would sport a 28" 1-6.5 twist barrel set up to shoot the 88gr eld, and the 95gr Sierra,(.600 BC). Hodgdon's 224V max load for the 80s is 24.4gr of Varget, and 90s at 23.6gr Varget. These loads are probably handicapped to work with an ar-15, Frank was getting 2880 fps in the Mile High bolt gun.

Thanks
 
#2
you may get a little more. but you're also gonna be dealing with new brass, dies, mag issues potentially (length and capacity)

is that cost worth 20-50fps? have you run the numbers between the two?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 260284
#4
I’d develop a load for the 88’s in your 223AI which seem to be outperforming the 90’s.
From what I’ve read, your 223 will do pretty much everything the Valk does. But you will need to develop a load for it. Which I’m sure there are some great recipes available on this site.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bender and 260284
#5
I’m waiting on a reamer to have my impact Valkyrie barreled action completed.

Based on my research thus far, if your sole source of ammunition is loading (unless you hate fireforming), you won’t gain anything over a 223ai.

When talking bolt guns, the appeal of Valkyrie is factory ammo availability for heavy high BC .224 projectiles. There’s also barrel life, but 223ai isn’t awful there either.

You’ll need to get a new bolt, barrel, and mag kits.

Kinda like when people who have a gen 4 glock ask if the gen 5 glock is worth it. It’s worth it if you don’t own a glock already. But not a big enough change if you already have one.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mater2009, Strike_out, 260284 and 1 other person
#8
I have done a fair amount of looking into this very comparison, and from what I can tell, the main thing that the Valk buys you over the 223 AI is magazine feeding from AR 15 mags (or other mags with similar internal dimensions) when loaded with heavy projectiles. As others have mentioned, the other advantage to the Valk is the availability of factory ammo.

IMO, ammo availability is kind of a trade-off... since a gun chambered in .223 AI is capable of firing .223 Rem ammo, you have a LOT of options there... even if the rounds aren't "full-powered" to take advantage of the AI chamber.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 260284
#10
No body ever discusses 224V AI, that could be a potential answer. I bet the next node up with 88's is in the low to mid 2900's.

I'm trying to wait for Lapua to come out with 224V brass, but I might not be able to resist going ahead anyway. I know the Starline 223 brass that I use in my 223AI is lasting well, but my load is lower pressure. I'd like to read more reports on 224V Starline brass longevity before I make any decision. One thing I hate is brass wearing out quick, especially the AI'd brass.

OP, how's the brass lasting in your 223AI? It truly is a great chambering with those 88's at longer distances. The 88's aren't the most consistent bullet dimensionaly but those things sail well at longer distances.
 
#11
If you’re stuffing your bullets way back in the case of your 223AI... Maybe. If you’ve got plenty of room to seat them out then probably not. 95gr SMK in a 223AI would probably give you mag length issues from the 223AI if you’re seating them above the neck/shoulder junction to maximize capacity. In that scenario the Valkyrie could give you an advantage since it’s a shorter case to keep them seated out... assuming your rifle is throated for it.

One advantage to the Valkyrie is high BC factory match ammo. Sure you can shoot 223 match ammo in your AI if you don’t feel like loading, but it’s all going to be low BC 77gr stuff. Valkyrie currently has two high BC match loads from major companies and I think we’ll see more stuff released in the near future, hopefully at SHOT. I know you load since you’re running a 223AI, but good factory ammo availability is never a bad thing.

Valkyrie is an awesome round, but so is 223AI. If you’ve already got a 223AI and you’re satisfied with it then I wouldn’t consider a change until it’s time for a new barrel.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CarbonMTN
#12
steve123 said:
No body ever discusses 224V AI, that could be a potential answer. I bet the next node up with 88's is in the low to mid 2900's.

I'm trying to wait for Lapua to come out with 224V brass, but I might not be able to resist going ahead anyway. I know the Starline 223 brass that I use in my 223AI is lasting well, but my load is lower pressure. I'd like to read more reports on 224V Starline brass longevity before I make any decision. One thing I hate is brass wearing out quick, especially the AI'd brass.

OP, how's the brass lasting in your 223AI? It truly is a great chambering with those 88's at longer distances. The 88's aren't the most consistent bullet dimensionaly but those things sail well at longer distances.
Click to expand...
If you're going to go down that road, I think that 22 Nosler loaded long with some heavies is also worth considering. It wouldn't surprise me to see an AI version of the Valk with essentially the same case capacity as the Nosler.
 
#13
BurnOut said:
If you're going to go down that road, I think that 22 Nosler loaded long with some heavies is also worth considering. It wouldn't surprise me to see an AI version of the Valk with essentially the same case capacity as the Nosler.
Click to expand...

With it's rebated rim, 22N is reported to have weak brass, might not feed well and by that I mean the bolt might skip over the rim causing jams, and it might be a long enough COL that it won't work well in a mag with heavies. Those have been my concerns but can't say for sure.
 
#15
Kickin45 said:
I’d develop a load for the 88’s in your 223AI which seem to be outperforming the 90’s.
From what I’ve read, your 223 will do pretty much everything the Valk does. But you will need to develop a load for it. Which I’m sure there are some great recipes available on this site.
Click to expand...

Does that hold true at magazine length restrictions though? I was learning towards the 223ai due to the buckets of once fired brass I have, but ended up getting concerned about the ability to fit the heavies in an AICS .223 pattern mag.
 
#16
I have a .223 Tikka Varmint that will get a 223 AI barrel when the factory barrel is toast. It is a 1-8 and it shoots the 75 ELDM at 3050 with H4895 and cheap Nammo brass. I am loading them at 2.49" and have more room in the magazine. My next barrel will be a 1-7 so I can play with the 80 and 88 ELDMs.

I have a 1-7 Bartlein barrel on order for a 22BR. The 88 ELDM at 2950-3050 with Lapua brass should be a decent match rifle. If you are going to take advantage of a Valkyrie, you will have to handload to get the most out of it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Triggerf16
#19
personally i'd look at different powders and get off the normal stuff. i run 80's at 3050 in a regular 223 and 88's at 2950. the 80's are nowhere near pressure and the 88's are slightly into pressure. there's lots of powders out there that apparently very few know about. do some research, buy a pound of powder and experiment some
 
  • Like
Reactions: Seandradamus
#20
_shawn_ said:
personally i'd look at different powders and get off the normal stuff. i run 80's at 3050 in a regular 223 and 88's at 2950. the 80's are nowhere near pressure and the 88's are slightly into pressure. there's lots of powders out there that apparently very few know about. do some research, buy a pound of powder and experiment some
Click to expand...

I'm assuming you are running a bolt gun and have a pretty long barrel?
 
#21
yes it's a bolt gun. my first barrel was 20" and was a little higher into pressure with both loads then i wanted and my second barrel is 26" so i could drop 1 grain of powder and run the same speeds
 
#22
_shawn_ said:
personally i'd look at different powders and get off the normal stuff. i run 80's at 3050 in a regular 223 and 88's at 2950. the 80's are nowhere near pressure and the 88's are slightly into pressure. there's lots of powders out there that apparently very few know about. do some research, buy a pound of powder and experiment some
Click to expand...

And what are these secretive powders that very few know about?
 
#23
look at alliant and specifically their newer powders that came out within the last 4 or 5 years and realize that they may or may not have published loads for what you're trying to run. also know that i load it all on my 650 so it won't have kernels like varget and the same load runs consistently from 28 degrees all the way to 102 degrees with very little velocity change. so little that i don't even adjust my kestrel
 
#25
na i went through the time and effort of figuring it out and y'all can to. the couple times i've told people they wouldn't believe me until they watched me load the ammo and take it out and shoot it
 
#28
_shawn_ said:
na i went through the time and effort of figuring it out and y'all can to. the couple times i've told people they wouldn't believe me until they watched me load the ammo and take it out and shoot it
Click to expand...

Why even say anything in the first place then? Giving all kinds of hints but won't just come out and tell people what powder it is like it's some sort of big secret that you have to play a guessing game.

Way to be a fucking clown.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BLEE, Greymatter762, Mechdesigner and 12 others
#33
steve123 said:
OP, how's the brass lasting in your 223AI? It truly is a great chambering with those 88's at longer distances. The 88's aren't the most consistent bullet dimensionaly but those things sail well at longer distances.
Click to expand...


I cant really say, I have so much brass that I haven't even made it through them all 3 times yet. So far so good.
Big buckets of brass is probably the main advantage the A.I. has over the Valkyrie.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Geno C.
#35
stuff said:
I cant really say, I have so much brass that I haven't even made it through them all 3 times yet. So far so good.
Big buckets of brass is probably the main advantage the A.I. has over the Valkyrie.
Click to expand...

That's a ton of fireforming!

I bought a hundred 223 virgin Starline brass, fireformed it, worked up the load, and am on my 4th firing. I'm curious how many cycles I'll get.
 
#36
redneckbmxer24 said:
If you’re stuffing your bullets way back in the case of your 223AI... Maybe. If you’ve got plenty of room to seat them out then probably not. 95gr SMK in a 223AI would probably give you mag length issues from the 223AI if you’re seating them above the neck/shoulder junction to maximize capacity. In that scenario the Valkyrie could give you an advantage since it’s a shorter case to keep them seated out... assuming your rifle is throated for it.
Click to expand...

tsu45 said:
Does that hold true at magazine length restrictions though? I was learning towards the 223ai due to the buckets of once fired brass I have, but ended up getting concerned about the ability to fit the heavies in an AICS .223 pattern mag.
Click to expand...

I'm using a 5 round 308 Win. aics magazine that I modified. Bent the feed lips in and put a little epoxy putty on the mag walls to make it slimmer so it single stacks the rounds. It runs 7 rounds of 223rem and 223AI 80gr eld-m at a COAL of 2.625" smoothly. I still have about 1/4" left in the mag to play around with the 88s and 95s. I would obviously need a 1-6.5 twist and throat longer for the 95gr Sierra.

Mag length issues aside, does the 224 Valkyrie have the ass to push a 88gr-95gr pill harder than 223A.I.? Looks like the answer is: If I want a noticeable increase in performance I should go with a 22br, 22-250, or 22creed.





 
  • Like
Reactions: Geno C.
#37
steve123 said:
That's a ton of fireforming!

I bought a hundred 223 virgin Starline brass, fireformed it, worked up the load, and am on my 4th firing. I'm curious how many cycles I'll get.
Click to expand...

I ran 10 pieces of their 243 brass 20 firings before I called it quits and said good enough. Still held primers and despite not annealing the entire time no split necks. Not sure what the case head strength is like on 223 vs the 243 but regardless it's good strong brass.

I'm lazy though, I always bought factory ammo to fireform my 223AI's. The winchester white box 40 round 45gr varmint packs was my go to. It always shot well in everything and yielded good strong brass to load on.
 
  • Like
Reactions: steve123 and supercorndogs
#38
stuff said:
I'm using a 5 round 308 Win. aics magazine that I modified. Bent the feed lips in and put a little epoxy putty on the mag walls to make it slimmer so it single stacks the rounds. It runs 7 rounds of 223rem and 223AI 80gr eld-m at a COAL of 2.625" smoothly. I still have about 1/4" left in the mag to play around with the 88s and 95s. I would obviously need a 1-6.5 twist and throat longer for the 95gr Sierra.

Mag length issues aside, does the 224 Valkyrie have the ass to push a 88gr-95gr pill harder than 223A.I.? Looks like the answer is: If I want a noticeable increase in performance I should go with a 22br, 22-250, or 22creed.




Click to expand...


You've got plenty of room for the 95's then. If you've got a 7 twist give them a shot, I've got them shooting great in a 7 twist 224 Valkyrie at a very slow 2450fps.

If you can load them that long you probably aren't going to see any performance difference.
 
#40
redneckbmxer24 said:
You've got plenty of room for the 95's then. If you've got a 7 twist give them a shot, I've got them shooting great in a 7 twist 224 Valkyrie at a very slow 2450fps.

If you can load them that long you probably aren't going to see any performance difference.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info, I'll have to give it a shot. I"m at 800ft, what elevation are you at?
 
#41
_shawn_ said:
look at alliant and specifically their newer powders that came out within the last 4 or 5 years and realize that they may or may not have published loads for what you're trying to run. also know that i load it all on my 650 so it won't have kernels like varget and the same load runs consistently from 28 degrees all the way to 102 degrees with very little velocity change. so little that i don't even adjust my kestrel
Click to expand...

I thought 2000mr was pretty temp sensitive? Just like 4000mr. I never used 2000mr, but went away from 4000MR for that reason. Are the kernels different in 2000MR? 4000MR was a ball powder that meters and looks like an extruded powder.
 
#43
supercorndogs said:
I thought 2000mr was pretty temp sensitive? Just like 4000mr. I never used 2000mr, but went away from 4000MR for that reason. Are the kernels different in 2000MR? 4000MR was a ball powder that meters and looks like an extruded powder.
Click to expand...

It is temp sensitive, it’s also the dirtiest nastiest powder I’ve ever fired through a rifle. Also one of the hardest I’ve used to get great accuracy out of.

Gives high velocities in the right bullet and chamber combinations but IMO absolutely not worth the trade offs. In my Valkyrie with 95’s I settled on Varget which is over 200fps slower than I got with PP2000MR if that tells you anything.
 
#44
I bought a 223AI reamer from PTG several years ago - didn't specify freebore, just took what they had in stock. As luck would have it, Berger or JLK 90VLDs seated to max mag length (AI poly 10rd mags) were at the sweet spot for accuracy, and gave me 1/2 MOA groups at 1000, as well as hits on steel at 1300 & 1400yds (I'd bet no one was any more surprised than I was to find those hits when we went downrange to score & paint steel). Which brings up another point - I was wearing electronic muffs with a fairly light wind in the face when those 90s hit steel, and never had a clue they'd hit the targets - no sound, and not nearly enough splash to see the hits. So, while a 223 or 223AI is a great little cartridge to play & practice with, it sucks as a competition round in a steel match format where you don't go score & paint after each shooter's run.

I'm into re-barreling Howa Mini actions right now - did one of their 6.5 Grendels in 6RAT and a 222 Rem in 20 Tactical - and with DIP aluminum DBM, modified HACT trigger, and 20 MOA scope rails in McM Game Scout & Boyds ProVarmint stocks, I really like these little rifles. I like them enough to have ordered a 22 Grendel reamer for a Krieger 1-7tw #4 sporter to replace another 6.5 Gren bbl. I'm hoping to be able to drive the 88gr ELDMs to 2880-2900fps out of the Krieger after I finish it at 24" -only time will tell whether I've gained much over the 223AI. Probably won't see the bbl blank until next spring, so don't look for a report from me until then. Might be tempted to try a Valkyrie if Howa would bring that boltface to their Mini action line, but honestly, like the concept of wildcatting the Grendel case better.
 
#45
stuff said:
Mag length issues aside, does the 224 Valkyrie have the ass to push a 88gr-95gr pill harder than 223A.I.? Looks like the answer is: If I want a noticeable increase in performance I should go with a 22br, 22-250, or 22creed.




Click to expand...

"If" the Valkyrie can push above the 223AI's velocity in a bolt rifle, it will be from a custom chamber designed like the long throated 223AI. With a SAAMI Valkyrie chamber your into the lands with 88's and 95's before reaching 2.35" so there is an easy .15" for it to exploit in a 2.5" AI poly mag... The only conversions I have seen posted yet have been AICS metal mags with a 6mmbr spacer kit. I am not sure if those mags would add to that OAL. If they do, that would be good to find out before having a custom reamer made.
20180216_114643-1.jpg

I took this pic before getting 95's and 88 Eld's. Both are longer than the 90smk and the loaded cartridge measures 2.248"
Top to bottom
69tmk
77tmk
90smk
80 amax
75 amax
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: dinc
#49
Stuff,

Would you please go into some more detail on your 223AI please.

This is something I've been thinking about doing to my 223AI M700 set up as a single shot currently.

Action -
DBM make -
Reliability of feeding and ejection with your mods compared to the normal 2.5" mags/223AI -
Maybe address any hassles you encountered along the way -

Thanks
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

I
223 Rem and other 224 Cal Variations
Replies
48
Views
1K
IndianCent
I
ReconFister
SOLD 224 Valkyrie Complete Upper, JP Match Barrel, Geissele Arca Rail
Replies
2
Views
543
ReconFister
ReconFister
steve101610
223 vs 224 Valkyrie 18” barrel
Replies
11
Views
2K
redneckbmxer24
R
browning442
Firearms 224 Valkyrie, Faxon, Aero, Larue
Replies
3
Views
543
browning442
browning442
J
Firearms AR-15 224 Valkyrie 24" Custom Barrel - Used
Replies
10
Views
739
Valkyrie1776
Valkyrie1776
Top Bottom
Back
Home
Forums
Merch
Alerts