223 limits

[Deltagunner00]

I understand that I am going to be somewhat limited in this caliber. I have the 308 setup for that. I bought this mainly as a trainer rifle. A lot of my practicing is done in my 100 yard range in the back yard. There are some other local fields that I can get up to 6-800. The 308 is good to go at my 1000 yard F Class matches.

Had a fuy at an F Class match shoot out to 800 with me with his 223.

Where do I start reaching my limits with the 223? I ordered 69 SMK's to try. It is a 16.5" Remmy Varmint barrel.

Thanks for your help.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

With 69gr and 77gr SMK you're probably looking at 700-800. If you can stabilize them the 75gr Amax will typically get a 223 to 1K.

If you need more umph ream it out to 223AI.

 

[81STFACP]

With the right combo, punching paper or making noise on metal at 1000 yards, 223 will be just fine. Take a 7 twist and launch the 90 VLD at 2850+, the .551 BC of the 90 VLDs will hang in there.

Years ago before the 77s came along, the 69s did quite well at 600 in the rattle battle from service rifles with 20 inch barrel. Just paper punching or making noise, there is no reason why your 16.5 can't do the same. The 69s at 600 will force you to become a better wind reader though. Some Scots I know even ran the 70 VLDs to 1200 yards punching paper in Blair Atholl, of course the rifles are 30+ inch TR configuration.

 

[Ultraman550]

I just shot to 600 with 69smk, 23.5 grains of H335, 16" 1:7 twist Stag barrel off a bipod. I have some 75 (or is it 77 grain) Noslers on their way to test those out but I think I could have easily gotten to 700. I was also using an AAC QD SDN-6 suppressor, Vortex PST 4-16 SFP. my goal is to hit at least 750 or 800 with my AR but then I'll be using my .308 for 800 plus.

 

[Deltagunner00]

Its a 9 twist so whats the thoughts on using these:
Sierra:
SMK - 69, 75 or 79

Hornady:
75 HPBT
80 A-Max

Will those heavys work in my 9 twist?

 

[triceratops3]

I've got a .223 shooting the 69gr SMK's and for practical purposes it's max range is about 700. After that hits (12" steel plate) become more difficult. But I've gotten hits on 12" plates to 1k yards.

the 7x grain bullets might stabilize but in my experience @1000ft above sealevel anything more than the 69grainers will not. A 1-8 or 7" twist is needed for the heavies.

 

[MSArmament]

I shoot a HCS MK12 mod 1 at 1,000 yards on a IPSC steel plate. I shoot 77 gr. Nosler CC hand loads. Def not my ideal rifle for shooting that far but it can be done. I sho0t 80gr. AMAX out of my .223 bolt rifle I had built at 1k no problem. I would say with right ammo and rifle you have a very accurate rifle to 650-750 depending where in the country you are.

 

[AKONA]

I understand that I am going to be somewhat limited in this caliber. I have the 308 setup for that. I bought this mainly as a trainer rifle. A lot of my practicing is done in my 100 yard range in the back yard. There are some other local fields that I can get up to 6-800. The 308 is good to go at my 1000 yard F Class matches.

Had a fuy at an F Class match shoot out to 800 with me with his 223.

Where do I start reaching my limits with the 223? I ordered 69 SMK's to try. It is a 16.5" Remmy Varmint barrel.

Thanks for your help.

It really depends a lot if you reload for it and how you reload for it.
The 80gr bullets at VLD length will not give you the same trajectory but close for training.
But then only for training or you settle for the open class that is not the best or most tipical caliber to shoot.
What I do for tactical training I have the 6x45 feeding from VLD mags that duplicates the same ballistics of a 308w MK316/M118LR from a 26" barrel.
For this a 8 twist and 22" barrel is needed with 105gr VLDs. The value packs on the 6mm + savings in propellant are a good way to save.
I also have 4 AR uppers setup for this caliber including 2 VLD setups that feed at 2.45 COAL. (10 rounds maximum).
The savings are nice and can match ballistic paths very close to the big brother. All is needed to start is a new barrel and dies. Everything is the same
to up one caliber.
..just something to think about..

 

[eldiablo]

With a 9 twist your 223 is seriously underpowered for the 1000 yard game. I run a 6.5 twist 223 wylde chamber. With 2000mr I can get the 90's to 2890 f/s. That beats the shit out of a 308. Cheaper, less recoil, and did I mention cheaper!

 

[BoilerUP]

The "best" bullet for a 1:9 is a Berger 75gr VLD...if it gives you accuracy. Its shorter than a 75gr A-Max and therefore has a higher stability.

In reality: your 1:9 will stabilize a 75gr HPBT or 77gr SMK/CC just fine, even at sea level and 0°F. 23.2-24.0gr 8208XBR and a small rifle magnum or BR primer is your honeysuckle, probably giving 2650fps +/-.

But 69s might shoot better in your barrel. Only one way to find out...

 

[Deltagunner00]

The "best" bullet for a 1:9 is a Berger 75gr VLD...if it gives you accuracy. Its shorter than a 75gr A-Max and therefore has a higher stability.

In reality: your 1:9 will stabilize a 75gr HPBT or 77gr SMK/CC just fine, even at sea level and 0°F. 23.2-24.0gr 8208XBR and a small rifle magnum or BR primer is your honeysuckle, probably giving 2650fps +/-.

But 69s might shoot better in your barrel. Only one way to find out...

That's the key to it all...only one way to find out and looking forward to it.

 

[flounderv2]

I run a 1/7.7t in a 20" Kreiger (Melonited) in an AR platform. I push the 77SMK right at 2700fps with around 24.1g of A2520. Its a hammer and I have no problem ringing 10-12" plates at 1K with it depending on wind.
Mine is SAC built platform.

Im getting 2" to 2.5" groups at 400 with mine. I havent shot groups with it past that yet though. Only steel.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I shoot a Stag Model 6 Super Varminter (AR) 5.56 barrel with a 24" 1:8" twist. It shoots HDY 75gr HPBT Match with excellent accuracy. I only shoot to 250yd, so I have no real idea where the limits actually are, but I do believe the longer barrel is going to improve the LR performance. I am surprised to see myself typing that my AR is up there near the top in accuracy among my rifles, but there it is. Even El Cheapo TulAmmo 55gr steelcase FMJ is 'palm of the hand accurate' at 250yd.

Greg

 

[Papagallos]

I shoot a Stag Model 6 Super Varminter (AR) 5.56 barrel with a 24" 1:8" twist. It shoots HDY 75gr HPBT Match with excellent accuracy. I only shoot to 250yd, so I have no real idea where the limits actually are, but I do believe the longer barrel is going to improve the LR performance. I am surprised to see myself typing that my AR is up there near the top in accuracy among my rifles, but there it is. Even El Cheapo TulAmmo 55gr steelcase FMJ is 'palm of the hand accurate' at 250yd.

Greg

You aren't the first to state that Stag's Super Varminter is stellar in the accuracy department.

 

[SporterII]

Gunner, 16.5" bbl with 9 twist. Sierra 69 is going to be your best bet. Not going far either. Sure in a calm you might have a good day. I shoot the 69 and 75 amax in two 23 - 24" rifles. Good trainers.
I personally think the 16" rifle will work best inside 500, with hot 69's if a 9 twist. Most Remington Varmints are 12.

 

[Deltagunner00]

I should have the 69s in a few days so I will hopefully try them out soon. I have a lot of Varget so thats what I will use and see if I can find the right loan for my rifle.

It is definitely a 9 twist. Seems like I dont see many with a 9 twist as most are 12 like you say Sporter.

 

[Clark]

The 308 is SAAMI registered at 62,000 psi max average, but can be pushed to 67,000 psi with long brass life.
The 223 is SAAMI registered at 55,000 psi max average, but can be pushed to 75,000 psi with long brass life.

Book loads are within 8% of the real limit for 308.
Book loads are within 36% of the real limit for 223.

 

[Mod Adahy]

With the right combo, punching paper or making noise on metal at 1000 yards, 223 will be just fine. Take a 7 twist and launch the 90 VLD at 2850+, the .551 BC of the 90 VLDs will hang in there.

Years ago before the 77s came along, the 69s did quite well at 600 in the rattle battle from service rifles with 20 inch barrel. Just paper punching or making noise, there is no reason why your 16.5 can't do the same. The 69s at 600 will force you to become a better wind reader though. Some Scots I know even ran the 70 VLDs to 1200 yards punching paper in Blair Atholl, of course the rifles are 30+ inch TR configuration.

Are you doing 2850 at mag length in an AR 15 with the 90's?

 

[81STFACP]

Of course not

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

 

[Mod Adahy]

Of course not

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Thanks, thought I missed something.

 

[81STFACP]

Stick the 90 jumping about 0.030 in a long throated chamber and launch it through 28-30 inch match rifle space gun, then the fun begins....

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

 

[FALex]

I'd shoot my Savage 10 at 800 with 75 AMAX's. I'd like to look into a Tikka with their 1:8" tw barrels. Might be able to sling a bit heavier of a bullet out there...great little round cheap to load for too!

 

[mattmaxus]

My t3 with a 1-8 shoots the 69's with varget well out to 600 don't have anywhere to try any further

 

[Ultraman550]

I saw a thread, can't remember if it was on SH or another site, where somebody was using AR mags that were made for longer seated bullets like 2.280. I don't think he was shooting VLD's but I remember him saying that the bullets were seated over regular mag length. Does anybody have any idea what I'm talking about? I'm serious, I really did see this somewhere unless I was drunker than I thought I was.

 

[Niles Coyote]

That's the key to it all...only one way to find out and looking forward to it.

Delta,

You may find this thread I posted about my 20” 1-9 twist Remington Tactical of interest.
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-reloading/108348-223-remington-tactical-owners.html

BoilerUP is spot on. 1: you won’t know until you try and 2: if you can find some 75 berger vld’s they will be your best bet at Longrangin’ your 223. You will or “should” find that rifle to handle 69g fine as well as 77’s, unfortunately both 75 & 80 A-max’s wont. They are just too long for 1-9 twist Remington factory barrels at our air density. The 75 will come close to stabilizing out of my tactical on a hot low pressure day but even still the groups are 2-3 times as large as they should be for what is the norm out of that rifle. The 80’s when I tried them were shotgunning... about of 5 shots I think I hit my 2’ target 2 or 3 times and there was evidence they were yawing from the impacts that did hit.

I have used varget and imr8208 and the top velocity without messing up my brass with 77 BTHP’s (both sierra and nosler) has been in the mid 2600’s and the 69 (again in both) has been in the mid 2800’s. 500 yards with either should be relatively easy for you to achieve. It will just depend on how switchy the wind is.

70 grain berger vld’s are also worth a look. They have the same BC as the 77’s but can run near 69 grain velocity. I tried them but could never locate a good jump depth and moved on. I have another R700 that has a much shorter throat and need to revisit them for that rifle... If your wanting a short range bullet I have found 55 and 60 grain v-max to shoot well with H335.

Another powder to look for is H4895, I finely found some and use that in my 7 twist custom bolt and it give me another 40ish feet per second over what I get with varget. I have yet to get around to using it in the tactical, but it has a faster burn rate than varget so it should do well.

Good luck, any Q’s just ask.

Just to add, a 223 can be competitive. Glock24, his brother and I (GO TEAM POODLE!) shot our first tactical match a couple months back and did pretty well with poodle shooters... well, except for when I was a full turn off my zero for about a stage and a half... anyway... we were shooting out to 650 with custom barrels launching (IIRC) 80 bthp in one, 82 grain bergers in another and me running 80g Amax.

 

[MoBoost]

I shoot 80 Amax in 600yard F-Class - 24.5gn Var in Lapua brass gets me right at 2650fps.

Excellent training for wind reading - every 1mph = .5MOA = 1 scoring ring = minus 1 point ... perfect school of hard knocks.

 

[Niles Coyote]

I should have the 69s in a few days so I will hopefully try them out soon. I have a lot of Varget so thats what I will use and see if I can find the right loan for my rifle.

It is definitely a 9 twist. Seems like I dont see many with a 9 twist as most are 12 like you say Sporter.

Try 25.3 grains varget with the 69 set at 2.26" and load five for study, that is the node in my 20" tactical with Winchester and LC brass. It works in my custom as well.

 

[AKONA]

The 308 is SAAMI registered at 62,000 psi max average, but can be pushed to 67,000 psi with long brass life.
The 223 is SAAMI registered at 55,000 psi max average, but can be pushed to 75,000 psi with long brass life.

Book loads are within 8% of the real limit for 308.
Book loads are within 36% of the real limit for 223.

I am not sure how anyone can categorically assert such evaluation, including precise overpressure values.
There are clear differences on brass type, capacities, bullets and chambers even under the same generic denominations.
Accurate powder company clearly differentiates the loads between .223 and 5.56. They assume you know the brass and what to do
and what no to do. I am sure we have very experienced reloaders on this forum but if a novice was to read that the book loads of the 223 are
36% off then he/she could be either very confused or ride with a very dangerous assumption.
We know some hard brass can be very strong and very good like WCC and Lake City, Norma and LApua. With the exception of lapua, the king in
strength and consistency the largest hindering factor can be the base and flash holes.
So one thing is to talk about the strength and virtues of the casings and how forgiving they can be and the other is making assumptions
around dangerous 75K PSI pressures that nobody can really measure anyway. Or maybe one is in a laboratory and can show us how is done
and it is safe.

 

[TheShooter]

Try several bullets and find out what it likes. My 223 PSS (1-9" twist) tolerated 69 grain SMKs, liked 77 grain SMKs and absolutely loves 80 grain SMKs. I was always told the 9" twist would not stabilize over a 69 grain bullet. One day my reloading partner was testing loads for his service rifle and I said what the heck and found out my rifle liked the heavies. I would never have known had I not tried. I have a 22" barrel which may give me enough velocity increase to offset the twist, but you will only know if you try.

The best thing about shooting 223 at longer ranges as it is unforgiving on wind calls. Those little bullets get pushed around.

 

[Clark]

I am not sure how anyone can categorically assert such evaluation, including precise overpressure values.

I have overloaded until I find the threshold of long brass life and then back off a safety margin based on the tolerances of my processes and components and the temperature coefficient of the powder.

While I have designed instrumentation amplifiers and have lots of CEA-O6-250UW-350 strain gauges, I do not try to measure the pressure. I simply match the Quickload prediction of velocity with chrono data and use the QL pressure prediction. Max pressure is very consistent from cartridge to cartridge with the same case head. Powders do not always match the library data, so some corrections for a jug must be made.

I have a friend who can calculate the max pressure of the brass using Von Misses equations.
von Mises yield criterion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
His 223 case head strength calculations match my empirical data that matches my Quickload predictions.

 

[AKONA]

Hi. Of course powders do not match library data. I agree. Powders do not even match the same powder from batch to bath or year to year.
I didn't comment on the previous post to be argumentative I am just curious why then ammunition makers purchase test barrels and take actual measures.
Because those are the ones who always argue about the validity of calculations and run into problems with their batches so they need the actual measures and facts to make corrections.
So nobody is going to argue how forgiving some brass can be but from there to 75K psi consisten max is quite a jump.
I use quick load and my own math too but looking at manufacture lab tests don't see how one could reach that w/o trouble and.
Sorry, other than flat primers and stretched brass I don't see it. In the end what we see from the test barrels with empirical evidence is ultimately what we can believe on.
Maybe I am missing something. In the end one only stops learning the day one dies.

 

[Clark]

The max Hodgdon load with 223 55 gr is 25.3 gr H335.
The extractor groove starts to grow between 29 and 30 gr.
That is between 14% and 19% extra powder.

The max Hodgdon load with 308 168 gr is 42 gr. H335.
The extractor groove starts to expand between 49 and 50 gr.
That is between 17% and 19% extra powder.

But powder is not pressure.

 

[Niles Coyote]

I've OEM 1-9's in both Remmie and Kimber,that will stabilize the 75 A-Max in SAAMI 223.

At what altitude are you shooting? or if you know your air density altitude that would be even better...

 

[elfster1234]

I run my ar rock river varmint out to 600yards with 60grn vmax with really impressive results... Best group so far is about 2.5inch 5shot group at 600yards with 60grn flat based vmax

 

[Niles Coyote]

Sealevel upwards.

You are fortunate. I have a OEM Remington 1:9 20" tactical and the 75 A-max is a no go. By that I mean the rifle will consistently hold close to the half moa range at 100y with 69 & 77 grain BTHP’s and the berger 75 vld but when I tried the 75 A-max the best it would group was around 1.5 moa. I guess I need to revisit that bullet in my R700 24" 5r. Unfortunately Remington chose to cut its chamber with a shorter throat than the tactical, but maybe to negatives (less room for powder and 1:9 twist) will equal a positive.