223 rem long range and twist rates

[USNavy06]

So I have a factory Remington 700 5r with a 24” barrel and 1-9 twist. The thing is a hammer with Hornady 75 ELD-M’s. It will shoot 5 round groups into one hole.

My question is can the bullet that is “stable” at 100-600 yards become unstable at longer distances because of this 1-9 twist?

I had it out to 900 yards a few weeks ago and it was hit or miss with almost no consistency. Wind was only about 3-4 mph so I don’t think that was my issue.

 

[Supersubes]

What were the conditions like the day you shot 900 vs other times? I dont know the length of the 75 eld, but almost certainly youre in marginal stability.

Edit: Those 75’s have an sg of .98 at sea level, and 1.2 at 5500 feet. At sea level youre righ at or nearing transition at 900 yds as well. So on the edge for sure.

 

[USNavy06]

The 75 eld is a long bullet that measures at 1.115 inches. And I’m pushing them at 2905 fps.

As far as the conditions I’ll have to double check my log but there was minimal wind and the temp was around 45 degrees.

Trying to figure out if i should just remage this and put a 1-7 twist barrel on it.

 

[Supersubes]

I used 1.2” for my calculation based on an internet search. Air density is the important number, temp isn't enough.

A 7 or 7.5 would work for sure.

 

[Rob01]

A 7 twist would work very well with the 75 elds. I run them in a 27” 7 twist and they do very well. I don’t run them super hard at only 2930fps.

 

[phantomskittles]

I used to shoot a 9 twist 223 with 75 amax. ELD are a bit different but still fairly comparable. They shot great to about 700 but seems to fall apart just past 800. Went from solidly moa at 700 to 3-4 moa at 900-1k. A faster twist should help and would also allow you to jump up to heavier bullets.

 

[USNavy06]

Thats what I was wondering. They do great 600-700 in. Looks like I’ll be swapping over to a 1-7. Thanks for the help guys.

 

[308pirate]

Thats what I was wondering. They do great 600-700 in. Looks like I’ll be swapping over to a 1-7. Thanks for the help guys.

A faster twist isn't going to help any 75 grain bullet do better beyond 700 yards or so.

Additional gyroscopic stability is not going to help you much when the bullet is going through a transonic transition.

 

[USNavy06]

Ah ok well maybe I was hoping this 223 would be consistent at 900.

 

[308pirate]

Ah ok well maybe I was hoping this 223 would be consistent at 900.

It is but not with the bullet you've chosen.

If that's what you want, rebarrel and make sure you use a smith with experience chambering 223s for 80 - 90 grain match bullets.

Palma/F-TR guys are a lot more knowledgeable about that subject that almost everyone else.

 

[lash]

A faster twist isn't going to help any 75 grain bullet do better beyond 700 yards or so.

Additional gyroscopic stability is not going to help you much when the bullet is going through a transonic transition.

Well golly. That’s news to a few people I know who do just fine out to 1000 yards and beyond using 75g .223 bullets. I’m sure that you’ve heard that some bullet designs transition better than others, right? A good friend shot field and PRS style matches for many years, about three barrels worth, with a .223 and 75s. I guess that it’s a good thing that nobody told him that those were not really impacts we were seeing on the 6” target at 1000 yards.

 

[Rob01]

Ah ok well maybe I was hoping this 223 would be consistent at 900.

The 75 ELD can do well past that. A lot of people including myself use them in Tac and shoot them past 1000 accurately. With the 7 twist you can try heavier if you aren’t tied to rules like Tac class but shouldn’t need to if you have 75s on hand.

 

[308pirate]

Well golly. That’s news to a few people I know who do just fine out to 1000 yards and beyond using 75g .223 bullets. I’m sure that you’ve heard that some bullet designs transition better than others, right? A good friend shot field and PRS style matches for many years, about three barrels worth, with a .223 and 75s. I guess that it’s a good thing that nobody told him that those were not really impacts we were seeing on the 6” target at 1000 yards.

No one who uses a 223 successfully in NRA prone or F-TR uses a 75 grain bullet for long range (800 - 1000 yd) matches. Mid range (300 - 600) yes.

PRS has a distinctly lower accuracy requirement.

 

[Rob01]

Of course as they want a higher BC bullet and they are not ties to any weight. Like no one uses 80grn 6mm bullets in PRS but it comes down to what he has and what he wants to use and why. The 75 ELD can be accurate to 1000+ when set up correctly but it's also a .223 round and pushed very easily by wind. It doesn't take much and what the OP might be seeing is that at the 900 yard area also. It might not seem like much wind but it also doesn't take much to move the little bullet at those ranges.

 

[lash]

A faster twist isn't going to help any 75 grain bullet do better beyond 700 yards or so.

Additional gyroscopic stability is not going to help you much when the bullet is going through a transonic transition.

There’s a difference between what is an optimal bullet weight for long distance versus your blanket statement above. Yes, there are ways to make the .223 platform handle longer ranges better, but that’s not what the OP is asking.

If you don’t want anyone to disagree with you, then don’t make unconditional statements that aren’t true.

 

[Dumptruck01]

1 have tried them in a 9 twist and they wouldn't stabilize but,, I have run the 75 eldm in both 7 and 7.5 twist out to 1000 and they do just fine. But any distance past 850 the wind really pushes the bullet around.

 

[260284]

I have shot a few thousand of the 75gr ELDM out of my 8 twist Tikka varmint. Have made hits out to 1400 and 800 is pretty easy with them. That said, my next barrel will be a 7 twist as I have a lot of the 80 and 88gr ELDM and will probably go 223 AI.

 

[Jabot]

I shoot 75 grain hornaday bthp to 900 all the time. It's a cheap little bullet not near as good as the eld. I do run it in a 7 twist though.
Before using this barrel I shot Berger 80.5 full bore out of an twist at 1000 yards no problem.
If I was OP I would shot this barrel out then switch to a new one. Unless all your doing is shooting at 900 plus all the time and just not having any luck.

 

[Jabot]

I'm going to add to last statement order your barrel now because it's going to take 4 months to get it. Maybe by then u will have your problem solved or not. U could put new barrel on or put it in safe till you need it

 

[Moose]

I have shot a few thousand of the 75gr ELDM out of my 8 twist Tikka varmint. Have made hits out to 1400 and 800 is pretty easy with them. That said, my next barrel will be a 7 twist as I have a lot of the 80 and 88gr ELDM and will probably go 223 AI.

The 223AI is an outstanding little round that I have been shooting for over 10 years.I run 75 gr amax true an 1&8 barrel and it does really well out to 400 yds.I wish I could shoot it father but my range is limited to only 400 yds.

 

[Steel head]

I’ve shot the 75’s a lot at 1000 and a bit beyond.
They do fine.
1/9 is kinda marginal but try it and see if it works for you.

 

[Eric32]

Take my experience with a grain of salt as the weather conditions we amazing.

I recently shot a K&M club match.

I was using 75gr amax's right around 2980fps.

I was keeping up with some of the dasher shooters up to about 600yards. But beyond that it was starting to drift in dope. I was able to spot my misses and correct. I did fumble 2 stages where the berm sucked in the splash and I couldn't tell.

But that was a lesson learned, it I can see splash add more of less wind and dont shoot the same hold.

I say all that to say this, on all the long range stages I was not hampered in any way. Shooting a 75gr bullet, will do extremely well.

But a 7 twist is needed and the wind must be steady and clean. Shooting a 223rem over rough terrain that causes dirty air. It will affect the bullet flight. But you need to drive them fast in the 2950 to 3000 fps. And they must be stable leaving the muzzle.

 

[USNavy06]

Of course as they want a higher BC bullet and they are not ties to any weight. Like no one uses 80grn 6mm bullets in PRS but it comes down to what he has and what he wants to use and why. The 75 ELD can be accurate to 1000+ when set up correctly but it's also a .223 round and pushed very easily by wind. It doesn't take much and what the OP might be seeing is that at the 900 yard area also. It might not seem like much wind but it also doesn't take much to move the little bullet at those ranges.

I’m not a competition shooter, just like to push the limits of the little 223 when I get bored with the 6.5 creedmoor. I have a ton of these 75 eld-m’s.

Thanks again guys I think I’ll order a 1-7 twist 24” or 26” barrel.

 

[Rob01]

Go 26". Might as well get all the free velocity you can.

 

[Eric32]

26 inch is the way to go, free velocity like Rob01.

 

[spife7980]

I love my 16” with the 75 eldm out to 1k so far. It’s not as fast maybe but it still does it and it’s still fun.

 

[Aftermath]

I have a Rem700, trued, etc, Kreiger super heavy barrel (zero taper) cut to 18.5" 1:7 twist, TBAC Ultra 7. I launch 80 gr Berger VLD's at 2740 fps using the Ackley Improved version of the .223. Tack driver out to wherever I want to shoot. I can hit 1MOA rocks at 1200 yards with real regular consistency. At the local range, we are limited to 550 yards. There is one gong that measures 1.5" in diameter and I can hit it with regularity...80-90% hits and when I miss, I know for certain it's not the rifle or bullet.
I'm not sure how long of a barrel becomes not so extra great with the little cartridge. I do know that the short barrel doesn't have any drawbacks as far as I'm concerned. I was reading on the Vudoo 22LR threads (I think) about how the optimum barrel length wasn't very long. I know, I know...22lR is not .223 let alone .223AI but I also know that long barrels follow the law of diminishing returns. I have a couple of real long barreled rifles but they have much more case capacity.

 

[Rob01]

You are still getting velocity with the longer barrels and a .223. It’s not a .22.

 

[Shootin Stuff]

I'm shooting 75gn eldm's out of an 8 twist 223AI and it's a nail driver.

A change of even +-2mph from average makes a noticeable difference on target once you start lobbing them way out there. Your load consistency also comes into play the farther out you shoot.

Depending on density altitude and muzzle velocity you should be good with anywhere from 1:7, 1:7.5 or 1:8 twist, but run your own numbers (with a realistic MV) to be sure.

Definitely go for the AI chamber and a longer barrel length if you get a new one spun up. No reason not to if you are hand loading and you will appreciate the extra MV.

 

[Rob01]

Only reason not to is if you want to shoot Tac class in matches.