223 vs 223ai for a trainer.

[JS624]

Hey guys just ordered up my new action today. Wondering if I should go with 223 or 223ai?
pros and cons to both.
thanks in advance

Goals: trigger time, positional practice, less wear and tear on my creed, shoot more for less money.

uses: 600 yards and in, whacking small critters, practicing for match scenarios.

 

[BangBangBlatBlat]

Fire-forming is dumb. 40 degree shoulders are dumb. If you want to go fast, get a .224 Valkyrie or a longer barrel. Or a plain 6BR.

 

[JS624]

Fire-forming is dumb. 40 degree shoulders are dumb. If you want to go fast, get a .224 Valkyrie or a longer barrel. Or a plain 6BR.

I'm going to be running a 26" tube. 1-7twist pushing 75gr elds

 

[Kadams1563]

From what I have been told it the guys I know who run .223 AI they hate it die to fire forming.

They all said go regular .223 and thatÂ’s what I plan to do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[spaniel]

Fire-forming is dumb. 40 degree shoulders are dumb. If you want to go fast, get a .224 Valkyrie or a longer barrel. Or a plain 6BR.

What is dumb is people who speak in absolutes, which are only opinion, with no facts to back it up.

there is nothing dumb about an AI. But like pretty much anything there are pros and cons and you must decide what fits your needs best. The cons are lack of full power factory ammo, need to fire form, and some people claim to experience feeding issues (I have not). Pros are an increase in velocity which may be particulRly useful pushing heavy bullets from a small case, and an end to case trimming.

as long as I’m getting my brass back I don’t care about fire forming. Those loads are just as accurate for me and fine for any application not requiring top velocity. And if you want you can run factory 223 if you want and a formed case pops out.

if you don’t plan to shoot past 300 yards the velocity increase does little for you. If shooting long range it is more meaningful. My 243AI has a noticeable advantage over straight 243s shooting identical bullets on prairie dogs at 400 yards and beyond.

 

[308pirate]

It's a trainer. It's supposed to make you work hard in the wind. Which means anything AI is dumb.

People on this forum love to overcomplicate everything.

 

[BangBangBlatBlat]

What is dumb is people who speak in absolutes, which are only opinion, with no facts to back it up.

The whole point of having a training rifle is to spend less time and money in the reloading room, and less wear and tear on a barrel.

.223 AI takes more time to make an arguably worse product. There's a reason 99 percent of commercial cases have things like body taper and shoulders less steep than 40 degrees; because it helps them feed in a magazine.

You know how big of a deal that extra 100fps is? It's worth about 5 inches difference at 1000 yards in a 10mph wind. It's even less significant the closer you get.

Keep in mind, the whole point of a training rifle is to spend more time shooting and practicing fundamentals, positions, movement, and reading wind. And then using the race gun in actual matches where hitting the target counts.

There's zero point in squeezing out the last inth of performance from a less than ideal caliber. On top of all those considerations, if OP wants to shoot his 223 in a match, he can be on an even footing with the tactical class; he slaps a 40 degree shoulder on it, and now he's getting crushed by 6mm.

 

[AK49]

Hey guys just ordered up my new action today. Wondering if I should go with 223 or 223ai?
pros and cons to both.
thanks in advance

No brainer if the cost of ammo is a factor ... forget the AI

 

[tylerw02]

How does an AI cost more? The brass lasts longer. You don’t have to fire-form to shoot it. Some also argue the shoulder angle lends itself to longer throat life, which also leads itself to economy.

I don’t advocate for it, as it has advantages and so does the standard .223, but I do not see the reason for chest-thumping absolutes.

 

[BoilerUP]

How to form 223AI brass:

Load 223 ammo (factory or reloads) into rifle
Shoot at paper, steel, or animals
Eject formed 223AI brass you never have to trim again

Lack of trimming saves time in the reloading room.

If you want to “keep it simple” with 223 that’s one thing, but 223AI ain’t rocket surgery.

 

[JS624]

Lol so many good arguments for both sides. As I was reading down the page I changed My mind back and forth 3 times.
o well at least I've got 8+weeks till I'll have both barrel and action in hand to think about it.
thanks for the input so far guys

 

[RampedRaptor]

223. So you can compete in Local matches that are for 223 and 308 only. I’ve had both. I like ai cases a lot but I’m going back to a regular 223 for training. No viable reason for an AI in a trainer

 

[cjgemm]

It's a trainer. It's supposed to make you work hard in the wind. Which means anything AI is dumb.

People on this forum love to overcomplicate everything.

So build a .22lr and shoot sub-Sonic's @200yds....

Nothing dumb about the AI, wanna shoot regular .223 in an AI - No problem. You can do it all day every day. One might even argue it would be dumb not to do .223AI.

 

[coldboremiracle]

It's a trainer. It's supposed to make you work hard in the wind. Which means anything AI is dumb.

People on this forum love to overcomplicate everything.

I agree, and "trainer" rifles are another manifestation of it. If you really want to train for something there is nothing better to train with than the rifle you intend to compete with. If you just need an excuse for another rifle then buy one, there is no shame in it.

 

[Dogsniper]

If you are running a long barrel go regular 223. If you want a shorter barrel with the same speed as the 26" pipe. Go ackley . I went to ackley cause I like the short barrel with a can. I get the same speed with 75 amax out of my 16" barrel ackley as I did out of my 20" non ackley. Like it so much I reamed the 20" out to ackley as well. Also I don't have to trim brass so much.

 

[supercorndogs]

It's a trainer. It's supposed to make you work hard in the wind. Which means anything AI is dumb.

People on this forum love to overcomplicate everything.

What about a 22 AI Hornet? Or any other number of AI's that are less powerful than a standard 223? Or is it just people who speak in generalities that are being dumb?

 

[308pirate]

What about a 22 AI Hornet? Or any other number of AI's that are less powerful than a standard 223?

LOL.....an AI that's less powerful than a 223? That's under "pointless" in the dictionary

I don't give a shit why others like AI wildcats. The point of a trainer is not to have an exact ballistic duplicate of your rifle. The point is (at least for me) to have something cheaper, SIMPLER, with a more challenging trajectory/ballistics, and with better barrel life that is a physical dupe of the main rifle.

Fireforming cases: not simple
Feeding hassles due to no case taper: not simple
Chasing empties around: not simple
Burning out throats faster than necessary: not simple
Burning more powder than necessary: not simple

If you love them wildcats, my dislike of them shouldn't affect you. If it does, grow a thicker skin.

 

[308pirate]

If you really want to train for something there is nothing better to train with than the rifle you intend to compete with.

What if the trainer rifle weights the same, balances the same, is stocked and scoped the same, has the same trigger, but only costs a fraction of the main one to operate and feed? You can even keep recoil close to the same if you don't use a brake on the 223 version of the main rifle.

I (and many people east of the Mississippi) don't have easy access to 500+ yard ranges to train in. But we almost always have easy access to 100 or 200 yd ranges. I don't need to burn 40+ gr of powder and bullets costing 30 cents a piece to work on positional techniques with targets 100 yards away.

 

[supercorndogs]

LOL.....an AI that's less powerful than a 223? That's under "pointless" in the dictionary

I don't give a shit why others like AI wildcats. The point of a trainer is not to have an exact ballistic duplicate of your rifle. The point is (at least for me) to have something cheaper, SIMPLER, with a more challenging trajectory/ballistics, and with better barrel life that is a physical dupe of the main rifle.

Fireforming cases: not simple Wrong, unless closing the bolt and pulling the trigger is too much for you.
Feeding hassles due to no case taper: not simple Mine was very simple, I didn't have any.
Chasing empties around: not simple I chase empties and reload them regardless
Burning out throats faster than necessary: not simple AI's burn throats slower, that is why they changed the shoulder angle dummy, go read something.
Burning more powder than necessary: not simple So do you always use the minimum load?

If you love them wildcats, my dislike of them shouldn't affect you. If it does, grow a thicker skin.

I can clearly tell by your comments you have not fire formed or owned an AI. I can tell by your comments you know nothing about the reasons AI's were changed. Most of your comments on this sight make me question if you even shoot. I am not annoyed just calling out blatant stupidity.

 

[coldboremiracle]

What if the trainer rifle weights the same, balances the same, is stocked and scoped the same, has the same trigger, but only costs a fraction of the main one to operate and feed? You can even keep recoil close to the same if you don't use a brake on the 223 version of the main rifle.

I (and many people east of the Mississippi) don't have easy access to 500+ yard ranges to train in. But we almost always have easy access to 100 or 200 yd ranges. I don't need to burn 40+ gr of powder and bullets costing 30 cents a piece to work on positional techniques with targets 100 yards away.

You kinda make my point for me. You are going to outfit two nearly identical rifles with competition grade chassis, optics, triggers, brakes etc. and then bitch about 30 cent bullets?

 

[308pirate]

I can clearly tell by your comments you have not fire formed or owned an AI. I can tell by your comments you know nothing about the reasons AI's were changed. Most of your comments on this sight make me question if you even shoot. I am not annoyed just calling out blatant stupidity.

I'm not going to debate this with you. I couldn't care less if you like AIs or why.

 

[Kadams1563]

So you can run .223 ammo in an AI? Will it be accurate?

I haven't researched fire forming brass for the .223 at all but I just assumed you started with empty cases. Loaded some sort of powder and corn meal or whatever people use.

 

[supercorndogs]

I'm not going to debate this with you. I couldn't care less if you like AIs or why.

LOL, Debating is when both people are making points. You are just blabbing a completely uneducated opinion.

 

[JS624]

What if the trainer rifle weights the same, balances the same, is stocked and scoped the same, has the same trigger, but only costs a fraction of the main one to operate and feed? You can even keep recoil close to the same if you don't use a brake on the 223 version of the main rifle.

I (and many people east of the Mississippi) don't have easy access to 500+ yard ranges to train in. But we almost always have easy access to 100 or 200 yd ranges. I don't need to burn 40+ gr of powder and bullets costing 30 cents a piece to work on positional techniques with targets 100 yards away.

Your making some really good points.
in my opinion.
The rifle will be used for more then just training but that's the root of it and I want another rifle. I mean don't we all.
I just don't want to be rebarreling my creed once a year. Im sure others shoot more then me but ive had it since october and already jave just under 600 rounds on the barrel My plan is to do positional practice much like you have mentioned among other things and load progressively for as inexpensive as I can. I think I may be leaning towards non ai
thank you

 

[BoilerUP]

So you can run .223 ammo in an AI?

Yes. You literally put loaded 223 ammo into the chamber, pull the trigger, and 223 Ackley brass gets ejected.

It is just that easy - or hard, if you will.

Will it be accurate?

Yes, just marginally lower velocity than the same ammo through a pure 223 chamber since some of the energy gets expended blowing the shoulder out to the Ackley chamber.

 

[spife7980]

So you can run .223 ammo in an AI? Will it be accurate?

I haven't researched fire forming brass for the .223 at all but I just assumed you started with empty cases. Loaded some sort of powder and corn meal or whatever people use.

Finally a question back on track.
Yes, you can run normal loads in an ai chamber, that’s the beauty of them. They cut the chamber shoulder forward but they also cut on thread off of the tenon, .014” cut off if I’m remmebering correctly. This pulls the case back and gives the round to about .004” of compression right at the neck junction only, remember the chamber shoulders are blown more forward than the 223 case shoulders so there’s no interference there. Normally to blow brass out for wildcating you have to create a false shoulder or jam the bullet to keep contact between the bolt face and case head to get consistent blow lengths. With the ackleys you just chamber and fire.

You can cream of wheat to save some barrel life supposedly but there’s also an argument that you’re just sand blasting the bore wearing it out without any thrill of shooting. I can’t speak to the actual merits of either way but I would shoot actual rounds myself given the choice in a non overbore chambering such as 223. I’ve been contemplating going 223 ai myself for the next project.

 

[JS624]

By the way guys I wasn't trying to turn this into a 223vs223ai debate thread just mostly wanted opinions on both calibers and pros and cons to each. I've never messed with A.I.'s before.

 

[D_TROS]

I am switching back from ai to std. I don't mind fire forming (I won a match fire forming brass) and it is like 2 gr more powder so my barrel life is nearly inconsequential. As mentioned, like most others, I reload so it really matters not which you prefer. Shooting the 80's at 3k is nice tho.

Im switching due to the many 223 classes in matches these days as well as the added velocity really matters not in a usable matter.



Good luck, either is fun to shoot.

DT

 

[steve123]

By the way guys I wasn't trying to turn this into a 223vs223ai debate thread just mostly wanted opinions on both calibers and pros and cons to each. I've never messed with A.I.'s before.

.

The 223 vs 223AI is a debate without end and plenty are here to argue over the merits of both. It wouldn't be SH without these debates and I wouldn't ever expect less.

 

[EXTREMEPREJUDICE]

Absolutely, if there weren't points to debate the question wouldn't have to be asked in the first place. Hurt feelings...............well whatever..............

 

[Hoser]

I have been running a 223 AI in my Bighorn TL2/3 for many years. I am very happy with it.

I gave my old TL2 barreled action to my niece as a graduation present. She seems to like it.

I have no real reason to pick a regular 223 AI over a plain ol' 223. Like Dorgan says, shooting an 80 around 3,000 is nice.

I even shoot 223 AI in a 20 inch gasser.

My actual trainer rifles are 22s.

 

[RTH1800]

It is always a bad thing to cross a confirmed AI disciple. No idea why the defensive posture they assume at the drop of a hat.

The truth is very simple actually. The AI family of modified cases hold 7-10% more powder for 2-4% more velocity at the same pressure. No more, no less. Any further gain is simply running over pressure. You can run a standard case over pressure and it will increase velocity at the same rate. It's that simple.

So, question becomes do I want to buy expensive dies and mess with the problematic 40 degree shoulder feeding issue. Some magazines lose one round capacity with the AI as well.
I'm not anti AI and have owned several including a 6MM and 22-250 at this time. I just try to be realistic in my assessment of things.

 

[JS624]

It is always a bad thing to cross a confirmed AI disciple. No idea why the defensive posture they assume at the drop of a hat.

The truth is very simple actually. The AI family of modified cases hold 7-10% more powder for 2-4% more velocity at the same pressure. No more, no less. Any further gain is simply running over pressure. You can run a standard case over pressure and it will increase velocity at the same rate. It's that simple.

So, question becomes do I want to buy expensive dies and mess with the problematic 40 degree shoulder feeding issue. Some magazines lose one round capacity with the AI as well.
I'm not anti AI and have owned several including a 6MM and 22-250 at this time. I just try to be realistic in my assessment of things.

Perfect.
this is the kind of stuff I'm looking for thank you for your response.
I didn't know there was feeding issues.
yea dies are another 200$ that I didn't think about.
I think I'll stick with a standard 223.

 

[tylerw02]

So you can run .223 ammo in an AI? Will it be accurate?

I haven't researched fire forming brass for the .223 at all but I just assumed you started with empty cases. Loaded some sort of powder and corn meal or whatever people use.

Thats nonsense. Load .223 into gun, shoot, you now have formed brass.

I swear half the crap on this thread is so misinformed.

 

[mattsnuked]

Had both, kept the regular ol' 223. It feeds better out of a mag.

If you want to dick with shit and like speed get the 223AI...

 

[cageli]

if really need more performance, 22-250 or 22BR are much better options. The difference between 223 & 223 ai is not material and not worth the extra work in my view, yes I had AI but went back to regular 223.

 

[308pirate]

It is always a bad thing to cross a confirmed AI disciple.

The butthurt that flows in great quantities is a thing of beauty

No idea why the defensive posture they assume at the drop of a hat..

Insecurity? Who the fuck knows.....

 

[Dirty D]

It's a trainer. It's supposed to make you work hard in the wind...

People on this forum love to overcomplicate everything.

See kids, 308squid and I can agree on something, 2 different statements actually! The whole point of a trainer should be to tell on you when you make a bad wind call, a wind cheating round does not give you the immediate feedback that you want.

 

[Dirty D]

.

The 223 vs 223AI is a debate without end and plenty are here to argue over the merits of both. It wouldn't be SH without these debates and I wouldn't ever expect less.

It's the way of the Hide.

 

[tylerw02]

I like how chest-thumpers here can’t make a valid argument against .223 AI.

Guys, not about speed. It’s about brass and barrel life. Do you like trimming brass? If not, then AI is something that will save you time. Do you like guns being down for barrels? If no, then look at AI.

Best arguments against an AI: do you hand other .223s and don’t want to sort brass? AI isn’t for you. Do you want to spend $200-300 on dies? Then AI isn’t for you.

Speed is a secondary benefit to AI cartridges. I don’t go with a .223 AI because I don’t want to buy dies and keep a second set of brass from the other 223 bolt guns and ARs.

Quit all this talk about being “stupid” and “I don’t need speed”. Some of you guys need to shut your mouth,
listen, and actually shoot for a change rather than bitching about stuff which you have no experience. If you’re butthurt about my post, then I’m talking to you.

 

[cageli]

I don’t trim my brass no matter it’s AI or not. I don’t get why AI would be superior to barrel life, it burns more powder so my knowledge tells me it is worse...after all these years, 223AI is still not a popular round, so I would say something about that. Bottom line is, AI or not, not much difference so wouldn’t be good or bad either way

 

[Bradu]

Lol at the people making fire forming out to be a big deal. I picked a middle of the road powder charge, measured my lands and have an accurate load that shoots awesome to 700 yards. Then go about your normal load development and enjoy. It's just horrible for me having to shoot my rifle to form brass. I guess you can let someone else shoot the gun if that's too labor intensive

 

[Sixfivesavage]

most people bitching about barrel life have never shot a barrel out in the first place. Maybe it's just me but I've had 3 AIs and none ever gave feeding issues in AICS mags. Two 223s and a 243. I hate brass prep, so I went AI for heavy tapered rounds and run the brass till it needs annealed then toss it. Winchester brass, not Lapua.

 

[kthomas]

I don't understand the logic behind using a .223 for a trainer to save on ammo cost, and then do it buy building an ~$8,000 dedicated rifle.

Get a 6BR barrel for your current rifle. Same bolt face, same action, etc. etc. Bullets are relatively inexpensive. Only 29 grains of powder. No recoil, super accurate, relatively cheap and you don't have to build a dedicated rifle for it.

 

[tylerw02]

I don’t trim my brass no matter it’s AI or not. I don’t get why AI would be superior to barrel life, it burns more powder so my knowledge tells me it is worse...after all these years, 223AI is still not a popular round, so I would say something about that. Bottom line is, AI or not, not much difference so wouldn’t be good or bad either way

The shoulder angle promotes throat life. Powder capacity isn’t the only component to barrel life.

If if you don’t trim any brass you’re either discarding it prematurely or creating a safety hazard.

 

[308pirate]

The shoulder angle promotes throat life.

How many rounds does it take for your 223 AI to not shoot 1 MOA at 600 yards. That's the accuracy yardstick for pulling a barrel that I am familiar with from a decade of shooting 223R in NRA/CMP service rifle.

 

[spaniel]

The whole point of having a training rifle is to spend less time and money in the reloading room, and less wear and tear on a barrel.

.223 AI takes more time to make an arguably worse product. There's a reason 99 percent of commercial cases have things like body taper and shoulders less steep than 40 degrees; because it helps them feed in a magazine.

You know how big of a deal that extra 100fps is? It's worth about 5 inches difference at 1000 yards in a 10mph wind. It's even less significant the closer you get.

Keep in mind, the whole point of a training rifle is to spend more time shooting and practicing fundamentals, positions, movement, and reading wind. And then using the race gun in actual matches where hitting the target counts.

There's zero point in squeezing out the last inth of performance from a less than ideal caliber. On top of all those considerations, if OP wants to shoot his 223 in a match, he can be on an even footing with the tactical class; he slaps a 40 degree shoulder on it, and now he's getting crushed by 6mm.

If you actually spoke from any first-hand experience....and it is obvious you don't...you would know you spend LESS time in the reloading room with an AI. Trimming, which is my least favorite step, becomes a truly rare need. Fireforming loads are nothing more than loading a standard 223 load and going to shoot. And feeding issues? I can count on one hand people who actually own an AI and report significant feeding problems. But I've lost count of the know-nothings who have never pulled the trigger on an AI round but keep regurgitating this "problem" on forums. I'm sure some people have had issues, but I've got a sizeable stable and I have yet to see it with a 40deg shoulder.

 

[Marksman10x]

Hey guys just ordered up my new action today. Wondering if I should go with 223 or 223ai?
pros and cons to both.
thanks in advance

Goals: trigger time, positional practice, less wear and tear on my creed, shoot more for less money.

uses: 600 yards and in, whacking small critters, practicing for match scenarios.

How many rounds of .223 do you figure you will need to shoot to break even over shooting only the Creed?

 

[308pirate]

Trimming brass? Not with an RCBS X die I dont........

 

[tylerw02]

How many rounds does it take for your 223 AI to not shoot 1 MOA at 600 yards. That's the accuracy yardstick for pulling a barrel that I am familiar with from a decade of shooting 223R in NRA/CMP service rifle.

I don’t and don’t plan to own a .223 AI. I’ve too many to deal with two dimensions of brass. Other AIs I have owned and never trimmed brass where the parent cases required trimming Q4 firings.