Um, okay. The question was about the supposed barrel life increase due to an extra 20 deg of shoulder angle.
But thanks anyway
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223 vs 223ai for a trainer.
- Thread starter JS624
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Um, okay. The question was about the supposed barrel life increase due to an extra 20 deg of shoulder angle.
But thanks anyway
I prefer my bolt guns .223's to be AI's. Ar's can't/shouldn't hold the pressure that is safe in a bolt gun and an Ackley Improved case is a great way to get an 80 gr SMK/75 Hornady to 3000 fps in a case that wont get accidentally stuffed in a gas gun. Yes a standard case loaded long can achieve the same thing at the same pressure but it could get put in a AR accidentally. There is no extra drama with the cases, especially if you make ure the reloading dies match your reamer.
At the end of the day either a .223 or .223ai fills a niche nicely. I own both reamers but perfer each one for different applications
At the end of the day either a .223 or .223ai fills a niche nicely. I own both reamers but perfer each one for different applications
I don't regret building a .223AI. Load and shoot regular .223 ammo as you please. There are a few who believe that you can't shoot regular .223 ammo out of a .223AI chamber. Not true!!! My Alonzo Custom Rifles .223AI is ridiculously accurate, and I love it. The furthest I've shot it is 1100 yards with Berger 80 VLDs at 2860fps. Shooting it in combination with a TBAC 30P-1 is pure bliss.
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It's not so much cost of ammo its wear and tear on barrel.
I've got 700 rounds on my creed in just over 2 months.
I'm just under 1/3 of the way through my barrel. So if I can prolong my barrel life to wear I'm not replacing it once a year then that is a win for me.
“”Um, okay”.” Rather than responding like a teenage girl, take a proactive approach. You questioned something I already stated doesn’t exist if you’d bother reading the thread.
Further, If you know anything about rifles and cartridges, you know there are wide varieties in barrel life reported due to many factors. No studies exist with scientific controls of variables to answer your question in general terms, though you were asking about *my* non-existent rifle.
If my hypothetical rifle went 4200 rounds because of my powder selection and firing schedule while the next guy gets 5800, it’s because of these variables. The only studies that have accurately predicted barre life were military studied where one load across a variety of identical rifles are produced with a specific rate of fire. They don’t do AIs.
You don’t know half what you think you know. I don’t get the hateful response toward a rifle cartridge. You just need to calm down, dude.
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I'm not going to get into a 2 way pissing match with you. You obviously have a sizeable stake in it, and I am glad you are happy with what you have.
I have never had a desire to create special little cases just to squeeze every last available feet per second out of a 223 Remington. It's already a good case design, and it can already launch 75 VLD's at 2830 feet per second from a 20 inch barrel. Even faster in a longer barrel. I like the simplicity of putting 24 grains of H4895, Varget, Reloader 15, etc into a case, and going out and shooting.
I also like having the option of using my rifle in a match, and being judged against others shooting similar cartridges. Turning 223 Remington in 223 AI puts me into the Open category where I'm not on an even playing field at that point.
I suppose this has been reiterated about 20 times in this thread, but some people must have skimmed over it as many times as well. The reason for the Ackley Improvements were not to increase velocity. They were to increase brass and barrel life first and foremost. A.I brass basically does not grow, in my experience. The need to trim chamfer and debur every few loadings is gone. All my 223s are non A.I.
All this "well I never needed it" posting is a waste of band width. Thank you for qualifying your statements, so we all know you have not tried it and know not about what you speak.
So you don't have a 223AI? Well then why the fuck am I even asking you anything?
I didn't ask about military standard or scientific tests. I asked for first hand experience.
I gave objective criteria for barrel replacement: 1 minute of angle at 600 yards. If you can't answer what round count would cause a 223AI to not pass that measure, then say "I don't know". Because obviously you don't.
3200 - 3500 rounds based on my logs: that's when the 223 barrels I've used can't hold 1 MOA at 600 yards. What can a 223AI do?
Fucking claiming longer barrel life for AI cartridges and can't quantify it so hides behind a bunch of bullshit qualifiers. Typical.
I guess reading is really rough, huh?
Again, you aren’t paying attention. And if you think you can easily quantify barrel life, you’re a fool. Real barrel life testing includes more than your silly “1 MOA at 600 yards” qualifier. You must include specifically ammunition, firing schedule, and rate of fire for the data, in addition to a measurable accuracy standard to be valid.
You literally don’t know what you don’t know and it’s showing in this thread.
A question about trainers. I see many people say that the purpose of a trainer is to among other things, learn to shoot in the wind with a non-wind cheating caliber. If you learn to shoot your 223 in the wind, how does that translate into being able to make the correct wind call with a "wind cheating caliber"? Wouldn't it make more sense to just learn to shoot the gun you already have? Instead of buying an entirely new gun to save your current 6.5 barrel, why not just buy like five 6.5 barrels and become great with your main gun? What am I missing??
Trainer is not just about wind, it's also about trigger time. I actually might argue that it's more about trigger time than wind skill, especially for positional/PRS style barricade shooting.
Cost wise the difference between shooting a 6.5 and a 223 is roughly $0.40-50 per round, once you factor all costs including barrel wear. Shooting 4,000 rounds per year that's about $2k cheaper per year to shoot 223. So even if you go full bore and build a complete $6k 223 match rifle as a trainer the break even is in three years. But the reality is that most of that $6k would have depreciated only maybe 30% after five years. You could still part the gun out and sell trigger/chassis/action/scope/rings separately and get most of your $6k back. Reality is you probably break even on non-depreciated costs within the first six months. For a switch barrel rig it's almost an immediate payoff, since barrel wear is a constant incremental cost. Sure you might have more cost tied up in barrels (ie more inventory) but the cost benefits start immediately since you're putting the "cheaper" barrel wear on your trainer from day 1. Stupid accounting tricks aside, to me there are other bigger benefits of a trainer...
One is that you don't have to mess with your match gun once it's dialed in. No worries about barrel speed changing, lands eroding and needing to tweak seating depth, whether the barrel needs to be cleaned but then fouled before a match, does it have enough life in it to shoot the next three matches or do I need to stop practicing, is it a brand new barrel I just spun on so I need to break the barrel in and do load development but I've only got 2 weeks until the next match. All that crap becomes "work" eventually, so once you have a match rifle dialed in... don't touch it and leave it ready for the next match.
Second is that you can feel way more free to abuse a barrel on a trainer than on a match rifle. Shoot faster, let it cool less, worry less about cost as you're pulling the trigger, worry less about being meticulous about brass preparation or powder measuring or counting the number of reloads on each case or whatever. It's cheap ammo that you can load quickly on a progressive and throw into a bucket and go to the range. Less stress, less hassle, less recoil, simpler range time.
I also love that 223 is way slower to heat up the barrel than a 6mm or 6.5mm. A typical range trip for me might be 80-100 rounds in under an hour working a barricade. Load a mag about half full, shoot some positions, walk back and reload another mag, keep shooting. At that pace the barrel never gets too hot, at least on cooler days we're having right now. You couldn't do that with a match gun in a larger caliber without it getting seriously hot.
Finally the nice thing about having a complete trainer rifle is that it's ready to go. Got a spare hour or two? Grab the gun and go shoot, no barrel switching, no rezeroing, etc. Makes things logistically easier, so you're more likely to shoot and/or you get more time shooting when you go.
Circling back to the original question of 223 vs 223AI. For me I went 223 because it was simpler/cheaper because I already had a nice set of 223 dies on hand. Not interesting in hot rodding, my trainer load is 23.2g of XBR8208 behind a 75gr BTHP at 2810fps from a 26" barrel - super conservative. Was still drilling a 10" plate at 800 yards at will yesterday during barricade practice. I kinda wish for a 223AI to avoid trimming brass, but I guess I'll just have to get a Giraud trimmer.
Bullshit. It's a straightforward question with a straightforward answer. List your qualifiers for your barrel life expectancy if you want.
The truth of the matter is you don't have a fucking clue about how much better barrel life is with a 223AI, do you? YOU brought it up now you won't quantify it. It's you who looks like a fool, not me.
BTW, the barrel life figures I gave you were a steady diet of Hornady 75s fueled by 24.7 grains of Alliant RL15. Typical NRA conventional highpower match shooting profile plus practice sessions (if you know what the fuck that means).
I guess it depends on how you personally think of wind dope.
I always try to correlate what I see (mirage, foliage/vegetation, etc) to a full value wind speed. Then I put on the wind correction in mils that should center the shot based on that wind speed and target distance. If I hit I know that my full value speed estimate was good. If not, I figure out what correction I need to make in mils to hit and backtrack that to a full value wind speed.
Learning how to judge wind speed correctly is key. That's the door to getting the correct wind dope (mils or MOA, your choice) on the gun. And the less resistant to wind deflection a load is, the more unforgiving it is to mistakes in estimating wind speed.
Suddenly you know want to offer specifics. Because even a fool like you, as disingenuous as you are, understand that load matters. Schedule matters. Material matters. It all matters. There are no absolutes.
I’m looking like a fool? Nah, pretty sure the world sees you for what you are. Grow up, and have a nice life.
Trainer is not just about wind, it's also about trigger time. I actually might argue that it's more about trigger time than wind skill, especially for positional/PRS style barricade shooting.
Cost wise the difference between shooting a 6.5 and a 223 is roughly $0.40-50 per round, once you factor all costs including barrel wear. Shooting 4,000 rounds per year that's about $2k cheaper per year to shoot 223. So even if you go full bore and build a complete $6k 223 match rifle as a trainer the break even is in three years. But the reality is that most of that $6k would have depreciated only maybe 30% after five years. You could still part the gun out and sell trigger/chassis/action/scope/rings separately and get most of your $6k back. Reality is you probably break even on non-depreciated costs within the first six months. For a switch barrel rig it's almost an immediate payoff, since barrel wear is a constant incremental cost. Sure you might have more cost tied up in barrels (ie more inventory) but the cost benefits start immediately since you're putting the "cheaper" barrel wear on your trainer from day 1. Stupid accounting tricks aside, to me there are other bigger benefits of a trainer...
One is that you don't have to mess with your match gun once it's dialed in. No worries about barrel speed changing, lands eroding and needing to tweak seating depth, whether the barrel needs to be cleaned but then fouled before a match, does it have enough life in it to shoot the next three matches or do I need to stop practicing, is it a brand new barrel I just spun on so I need to break the barrel in and do load development but I've only got 2 weeks until the next match. All that crap becomes "work" eventually, so once you have a match rifle dialed in... don't touch it and leave it ready for the next match.
Second is that you can feel way more free to abuse a barrel on a trainer than on a match rifle. Shoot faster, let it cool less, worry less about cost as you're pulling the trigger, worry less about being meticulous about brass preparation or powder measuring or counting the number of reloads on each case or whatever. It's cheap ammo that you can load quickly on a progressive and throw into a bucket and go to the range. Less stress, less hassle, less recoil, simpler range time.
I also love that 223 is way slower to heat up the barrel than a 6mm or 6.5mm. A typical range trip for me might be 80-100 rounds in under an hour working a barricade. Load a mag about half full, shoot some positions, walk back and reload another mag, keep shooting. At that pace the barrel never gets too hot, at least on cooler days we're having right now. You couldn't do that with a match gun in a larger caliber without it getting seriously hot.
Finally the nice thing about having a complete trainer rifle is that it's ready to go. Got a spare hour or two? Grab the gun and go shoot, no barrel switching, no rezeroing, etc. Makes things logistically easier, so you're more likely to shoot and/or you get more time shooting when you go.
Circling back to the original question of 223 vs 223AI. For me I went 223 because it was simpler/cheaper because I already had a nice set of 223 dies on hand. Not interesting in hot rodding, my trainer load is 23.2g of XBR8208 behind a 75gr BTHP at 2810fps from a 26" barrel - super conservative. Was still drilling a 10" plate at 800 yards at will yesterday during barricade practice. I kinda wish for a 223AI to avoid trimming brass, but I guess I'll just have to get a Giraud trimmer.
Thanks for taking the time to answer my question. While our approaches are very different I can appreciate the merit in yours.
There has been Argument here and there about the Ackley Improved If you are not familiar with Ackley Improved chamberings, be aware you have to fireform you brass one time to get the most out of your Ackley Improved rifle. Brass lasts longer, and they say AIs are easier on they rifle due to less bolt thrust. You have to be a handloader of course, or owning any AI rifle is a waste of time and money. however, cases must be fire-formed which takes time and eats away additional barrel life. Since the Ackley Improved version is more overbore, it will burn out barrels faster than You do not need to waste barrel life fire-forming. Fire-forming loads can be used quite effectively stopping beating hearts. All my AIs had fire-forming loads quite accurate enough to be used on target.
Of course all AI chambers will have less barrel life than the parent chamber. There is no way getting away from the fact that the more powder burnt, the shorter the barrel life. All the more reason to use fire-forming loads on target.
Of course all AI chambers will have less barrel life than the parent chamber. There is no way getting away from the fact that the more powder burnt, the shorter the barrel life. All the more reason to use fire-forming loads on target.
This is a really great point. You can read the wind, you can know the wind. If you haven't practiced breaking your shot when you want it, off a wobbly ass rest, unsupported, or off hand. You will have trouble making hits from compromised positions. It has been said and said again. Everyone is a superstar off their belly with a bipod and a rear bag.
There was a lot of other good info in there too. I just wanted to glob onto this point. I shoot air rifles in my garage for offhand practice. No wind at all, it has helped a lot.
Trainer is not just about wind, it's also about trigger time. I actually might argue that it's more about trigger time than wind skill, especially for positional/PRS style barricade shooting.
Cost wise the difference between shooting a 6.5 and a 223 is roughly $0.40-50 per round, once you factor all costs including barrel wear. Shooting 4,000 rounds per year that's about $2k cheaper per year to shoot 223. So even if you go full bore and build a complete $6k 223 match rifle as a trainer the break even is in three years. But the reality is that most of that $6k would have depreciated only maybe 30% after five years. You could still part the gun out and sell trigger/chassis/action/scope/rings separately and get most of your $6k back. Reality is you probably break even on non-depreciated costs within the first six months. For a switch barrel rig it's almost an immediate payoff, since barrel wear is a constant incremental cost. Sure you might have more cost tied up in barrels (ie more inventory) but the cost benefits start immediately since you're putting the "cheaper" barrel wear on your trainer from day 1. Stupid accounting tricks aside, to me there are other bigger benefits of a trainer...
One is that you don't have to mess with your match gun once it's dialed in. No worries about barrel speed changing, lands eroding and needing to tweak seating depth, whether the barrel needs to be cleaned but then fouled before a match, does it have enough life in it to shoot the next three matches or do I need to stop practicing, is it a brand new barrel I just spun on so I need to break the barrel in and do load development but I've only got 2 weeks until the next match. All that crap becomes "work" eventually, so once you have a match rifle dialed in... don't touch it and leave it ready for the next match.
Second is that you can feel way more free to abuse a barrel on a trainer than on a match rifle. Shoot faster, let it cool less, worry less about cost as you're pulling the trigger, worry less about being meticulous about brass preparation or powder measuring or counting the number of reloads on each case or whatever. It's cheap ammo that you can load quickly on a progressive and throw into a bucket and go to the range. Less stress, less hassle, less recoil, simpler range time.
I also love that 223 is way slower to heat up the barrel than a 6mm or 6.5mm. A typical range trip for me might be 80-100 rounds in under an hour working a barricade. Load a mag about half full, shoot some positions, walk back and reload another mag, keep shooting. At that pace the barrel never gets too hot, at least on cooler days we're having right now. You couldn't do that with a match gun in a larger caliber without it getting seriously hot.
Finally the nice thing about having a complete trainer rifle is that it's ready to go. Got a spare hour or two? Grab the gun and go shoot, no barrel switching, no rezeroing, etc. Makes things logistically easier, so you're more likely to shoot and/or you get more time shooting when you go.
Circling back to the original question of 223 vs 223AI. For me I went 223 because it was simpler/cheaper because I already had a nice set of 223 dies on hand. Not interesting in hot rodding, my trainer load is 23.2g of XBR8208 behind a 75gr BTHP at 2810fps from a 26" barrel - super conservative. Was still drilling a 10" plate at 800 yards at will yesterday during barricade practice. I kinda wish for a 223AI to avoid trimming brass, but I guess I'll just have to get a Giraud trimmer.
Great post!
I don't even have a 223 trainer, just a AR, but I like the info you gave. I find it true that I shoot my 6x47L less than I would if it got better barrel life. Especially when the barrel gets old and I'm trying to stretch it till the extra $ becomes available again for a new barrel. Man if I could just talk myself into not buying the other cool stuff I like, lol.
It's 22's and air rifles for me with training but I totally see your points, mainly the trigger time comment.
I saw a young guy get 9/9 on a hard barricade stage last month, I wonder if he has a 223 trainer??? because I don't think I could have done that when I was young, supreme shooting on his part. I'm thinking, dang, how can I compete against that, I better practice more!
I'm kinda wishing ole Mausingfield worked with 223 so at least I could swap barrels. Might have to try the 223 trainer concept but as 6mmBR slowed down with cheap bullets instead, or creating that 6.5BR I've been wanting to try. That's the best I can afford for now, vs building a new rifle.
Another problem for me is it's typically windy where I live.
I’ve been reading this thread with great enthusiasm and have finally had enough beer to post a question that probably gets me flamed straight away. Haha
At the risk of hijacking the thread (and I’m more than happy to start a new one, but it does relate to .223 trainer so doing it here for now), why not .223 Wylde? I know it’s primarily an AR chambering, but for me the principal idea of a trainer would be low cost and trigger time based, especially since I’m not yet in a position to reload. I know it will lose out on accuracy, but being able to shoot cheap federal and even IMI 5.56N 62gr on days when I just want to squeeze the trigger and 75-82gr remanufactured Black Hills .223 on days when I want to care a little bit more makes sense. I have a .308 that I currently run for practice, but even the bargain buys I’ve managed come in at around 90c/rd. I tend to buy 1000rds at a go so the .223 variants get cheap, but still not free.
thanks and happy new year. Donning my nonexistent suit now.
At the risk of hijacking the thread (and I’m more than happy to start a new one, but it does relate to .223 trainer so doing it here for now), why not .223 Wylde? I know it’s primarily an AR chambering, but for me the principal idea of a trainer would be low cost and trigger time based, especially since I’m not yet in a position to reload. I know it will lose out on accuracy, but being able to shoot cheap federal and even IMI 5.56N 62gr on days when I just want to squeeze the trigger and 75-82gr remanufactured Black Hills .223 on days when I want to care a little bit more makes sense. I have a .308 that I currently run for practice, but even the bargain buys I’ve managed come in at around 90c/rd. I tend to buy 1000rds at a go so the .223 variants get cheap, but still not free.
thanks and happy new year. Donning my nonexistent suit now.
I’ve been reading this thread with great enthusiasm and have finally had enough beer to post a question that probably gets me flamed straight away. Haha
At the risk of hijacking the thread (and I’m more than happy to start a new one, but it does relate to .223 trainer so doing it here for now), why not .223 Wylde? I know it’s primarily an AR chambering, but for me the principal idea of a trainer would be low cost and trigger time based, especially since I’m not yet in a position to reload. I know it will lose out on accuracy, but being able to shoot cheap federal and even IMI 5.56N 62gr on days when I just want to squeeze the trigger and 75-82gr remanufactured Black Hills .223 on days when I want to care a little bit more makes sense. I have a .308 that I currently run for practice, but even the bargain buys I’ve managed come in at around 90c/rd. I tend to buy 1000rds at a go so the .223 variants get cheap, but still not free.
thanks and happy new year. Donning my nonexistent suit now.
At the risk of hijacking the thread (and I’m more than happy to start a new one, but it does relate to .223 trainer so doing it here for now), why not .223 Wylde? I know it’s primarily an AR chambering, but for me the principal idea of a trainer would be low cost and trigger time based, especially since I’m not yet in a position to reload. I know it will lose out on accuracy, but being able to shoot cheap federal and even IMI 5.56N 62gr on days when I just want to squeeze the trigger and 75-82gr remanufactured Black Hills .223 on days when I want to care a little bit more makes sense. I have a .308 that I currently run for practice, but even the bargain buys I’ve managed come in at around 90c/rd. I tend to buy 1000rds at a go so the .223 variants get cheap, but still not free.
thanks and happy new year. Donning my nonexistent suit now.
Most guys chambering a 223 trainer for a bolt gun are doing so with sufficient freebore to run heavy bullets at OAL's longer than a standard AR mag will take. That's all a 223 Wylde is, really.
i think smart phones and the information age people want everything and they want it now...no scientific thinking, no scientific processes. It has to be black and white for people these days.
I read every page of this debate. I strongly suspect a lot of the people so adamantly against the AI have never owned own, based on their reasons for not wanting to own one.
Fireforming is such a non issue it's funny. I load 55gr bullets and do barricade practice at a 2 moa target at 200 yards, and the next thing I know, I have AI brass up to my ears. Which I use to shoot 80gr ELD-M's at a smokin' 3100fps form my 28" barrel. It's damn effective out to 900 yards with those pills. And rarely goes sub before 1200 yards in most of the DA's I see here in SW Idaho. I have never had any feeding issues with this rifle, as some here have indicated happens. I didn't spend $200 plus on dies, I bought the cheap $45 set of Lee's from Midway, and they work great. I shoot bug hole groups and have a SD of 6. I can load 55gr bullets for .20 cents a piece and as yet, have not shot out a barrel at a little over 3k rounds. I do have a new one on order as we speak just in case it's getting close. At that round count I've saved two barrel swaps on my comp gun and a crap ton of money on rounds. Not to mention time, as I can crank out 223 on my Dillon 650 like nobodies business. Off the top of my head it saved me about $1500 in the first year I had it.
This rifle is set up to match my 6 Creedmoor comp rifle from head to toe. It's an amazing training tool.
I strongly recommend the AI. It's a fantastic and efficient way to run the 223.
Fireforming is such a non issue it's funny. I load 55gr bullets and do barricade practice at a 2 moa target at 200 yards, and the next thing I know, I have AI brass up to my ears. Which I use to shoot 80gr ELD-M's at a smokin' 3100fps form my 28" barrel. It's damn effective out to 900 yards with those pills. And rarely goes sub before 1200 yards in most of the DA's I see here in SW Idaho. I have never had any feeding issues with this rifle, as some here have indicated happens. I didn't spend $200 plus on dies, I bought the cheap $45 set of Lee's from Midway, and they work great. I shoot bug hole groups and have a SD of 6. I can load 55gr bullets for .20 cents a piece and as yet, have not shot out a barrel at a little over 3k rounds. I do have a new one on order as we speak just in case it's getting close. At that round count I've saved two barrel swaps on my comp gun and a crap ton of money on rounds. Not to mention time, as I can crank out 223 on my Dillon 650 like nobodies business. Off the top of my head it saved me about $1500 in the first year I had it.
This rifle is set up to match my 6 Creedmoor comp rifle from head to toe. It's an amazing training tool.
I strongly recommend the AI. It's a fantastic and efficient way to run the 223.
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