Does anyone have any insight or believe this round will be picked up for production for the bolt action crowd.
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.224 Valkyrie
- Thread starter -=boone=-
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^^This^^
Unless the goal was ammo commonality between bolt and gas guns, I'm not sure I'd see the purpose.
I got derided for saying this elsewhere, but it's a mag-length cartridge designed around that performance envelope. Like 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC, the compromise the cartridge is built around isn't found in bolt gun applications and therefore the round as a whole is questionable when pressed in that role. You want a "1000 yard coyote cartridge" for your small frame AR? Go get it gurl. In a bolt gun there are a billion other cartridges that will do that.
i always get a kick out of the "why would you" answers.
Why the hell are there .223 bolt guns?
Why would anyone own a .223 bolt gun?
The reasoning for the .224 valkyrie is simple, especially when considering bolt gun use.
Increased performance without the very overbore configuration of the .22-250.
Why the hell are there .223 bolt guns?
Why would anyone own a .223 bolt gun?
The reasoning for the .224 valkyrie is simple, especially when considering bolt gun use.
Increased performance without the very overbore configuration of the .22-250.
Looks like they did what the 22 nosler should have. Make the case short enough to run heavy 22 cal bullets at mag length. For a bolt gun I don't see it. A long throated 223 gets me what I want there, since I don't have to worry about 2.25 OAL. I would take the shorter barrel life of the 22-250 for the increased performance in a bolt action. For what I use my AR for, the extra performance isn't worth the cost either.
well, the 20" AR that Jim G was shooting this past weekend at Core was a hammer. it was shooting 90g pills at 2670ish and hammering out to 840 (I made a first round hit with dope dialed at that distance my first time behind the gun).
it was a smooth shooting AR with very little recoil. it was limited to AR (6.8) mag length, which hurt its velocity some. but factory ammo is around $13-14 a box of 20 for the 90g match stuff. that's pretty cheap. like was said above, MPA has been making rifles for it, and Ive seen at least a couple others. this load in a bolt gun should push the 90g in the 2900s fps. that's with very little recoil and a BC in the High 500s (G1). not a bad combo.
they also have ammo for killing critters and plinking that is around $10 a box. again, pretty good deal there. I think I might be calling JP to get one of there 20" barrels to throw on an AR. looks like fun to me!
it was a smooth shooting AR with very little recoil. it was limited to AR (6.8) mag length, which hurt its velocity some. but factory ammo is around $13-14 a box of 20 for the 90g match stuff. that's pretty cheap. like was said above, MPA has been making rifles for it, and Ive seen at least a couple others. this load in a bolt gun should push the 90g in the 2900s fps. that's with very little recoil and a BC in the High 500s (G1). not a bad combo.
they also have ammo for killing critters and plinking that is around $10 a box. again, pretty good deal there. I think I might be calling JP to get one of there 20" barrels to throw on an AR. looks like fun to me!
I've always wanted a little more out of a small frame AR for a coyote rifle/toy. I will hopefully be testing one out in a few weeks. I found their claims of supersonic performance at 1300 yards to be a little lofty, but I suppose you could achieve 2700 fps out of a 22-24" barrel. At that you need to be around 7,000' above sea level, which kind of rules out the majority of the US. Nonetheless, I am excited to see if it lives up to the hype.
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Meh, got off the phone with one of the premier rifle builders on here. In a nut shell, yes the Valkyrie is going to be produced in a bolt action and the current results are awesome.
Keep a eye out on shot show.
Keep a eye out on shot show.
Factory ammo? Rather have the lapua brass my self.
Always has to be a big new thing. " 6.5 Ceedmoor performance out of your small frame AR" meh, wake me up when you get to 6 Creedmoor or 6.5 SAUM (PRC) levels. 10 years behind the curve.
Always has to be a big new thing. " 6.5 Ceedmoor performance out of your small frame AR" meh, wake me up when you get to 6 Creedmoor or 6.5 SAUM (PRC) levels. 10 years behind the curve.
With it being backed by a large ammo manufacture, it will likely stick around for those who don’t reload.
In in terms of a bolt gun, Phil from MPA was saying he was getting 2900 with 90gr in a 24” barrel. That is very close to 6dasher.
it is another option out there. If you handload, the world is our oyster to load whatever the heck you want. But other decide not to, and just roll with factory stuff, so this might suit their budget well.
In in terms of a bolt gun, Phil from MPA was saying he was getting 2900 with 90gr in a 24” barrel. That is very close to 6dasher.
it is another option out there. If you handload, the world is our oyster to load whatever the heck you want. But other decide not to, and just roll with factory stuff, so this might suit their budget well.
I think likely due to bolt thrust.
One of the major problems with the grendel is there is almost no bolt face left.
Couple that with an even fatter case with extremely long bullets poking out the front and you are going to have feeding issues.
Also have to consider mag capacity. the 6.8 mags feed pretty well and you are typically only down 2 rounds compared to the 5.56
I've been shooting with the 6.5 Grendel more or less since it showed up. There were issues in the beginning, with crappy mags and different chambers. It seems to have been reasonably standardized now, and the mags work well. I am not sure there is any reliability difference between SPC case and Grendel case. Perhaps, there is a difference when they are necked down to 22 caliber. I might give it a try at some point.
ILya
ILya
The thrust issue is from the bigger bolt face on the Grendal bolt Vs the SPC.
because, AR's were brought into the conversation earlier in the thread.
You are correct, bolt thrust is a non-issue in the bolt gun.
It is, however, an issue in the AR platform, which this cartridge and the grendel variant are designed to work in.
Howa makes the HCR in an action size suited for the caliber. With prefit barrels, it could be interesting. I consider this caliber a step ahead of some others. A 6x45 really only works with bullets heavier than 80 grains in a bolt rifle imo.
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I'd like to understand why guys don't find appealing a .53 BC bullet of only 90 grains going close to 2900 fps in a bolt gun(reloading and longer barrel) using only 28 grains of powder. Super soft recoil with a brake, and cheap to shoot, while exceeding 223AI. Ballistics basically like a 6.5Creed with 130's without using 42 grains of powder.
I'm pretty amazed how well my 6mmFatRat does with a 95grSMK/49BC going 2870 fps in my AR. It is just behind my 6x47 in the wind when shooting steel and comparing the two I really can't tell any difference in light winds. Our 1122Y 19" steel was toast just a week ago in 5-7 mph 1/2 value winds, banghit, banghit, till the mag was empty. For me it comes down to using less powder with lightweight but high BC bullets.
I'm pretty amazed how well my 6mmFatRat does with a 95grSMK/49BC going 2870 fps in my AR. It is just behind my 6x47 in the wind when shooting steel and comparing the two I really can't tell any difference in light winds. Our 1122Y 19" steel was toast just a week ago in 5-7 mph 1/2 value winds, banghit, banghit, till the mag was empty. For me it comes down to using less powder with lightweight but high BC bullets.
And from the look of things they are pretty equal in a AR platform. 28 grains to 29.6 - what one lacks in bolt head the other lacks in case design with long heavies eating up capacity. Pick your lunch, but neither is free....
Not to mention one can run Berger 90's with out overstated BC's....
Not to mention one can run Berger 90's with out overstated BC's....
Because people LOVE to bitch about EVERYTHING new. Clearly if it wasn't THEIR idea, it's a bad idea. Truly stupid, and the most predictable response anytime anything new is announced. 22BR performance in something that functions in an AR as well as a bolt gun? ... yeah, pretty sure it will amass a following.
Those of us with an IQ above double digits enjoy options and innovation.
Because there are a hell of a lot of ways to send heavy .22 cal pills down range fast in a bolt gun. Having to build a whole new gun which action is married to one oddball case is not appealing to me. Kind of makes the only 28 grains of powder irrelevant in my book.
That's fair, too each his own.
Some of us like things that are different to begin with. Fast isn't everything but of course that has appeal too and you'd be preaching to the choir, so to speak. The faster the round, the faster the barrel heats up, and the faster the throat gets torched. I have a 20x47l barrel that sent 55 grain Bergers at 3830 fps, firecracked inside 400 rounds and bullets blowing up. For some reason 40's work for now at 4100 fps/low node but I regret I had this idea to begin with. Fun notion but didn't work out in practicality.
Really all it is, is a different bolt/bolt face for the V224 which is an extra expense but not fireforming 223AI makes up for that IMO. Soon enough there will be factory rifles ready to go and aftermarket goodies...
If I can get away with buying an 8lb keg a year for practice instead of two, is where I'm coming from, and I can only assume the V224 gets better barrel life than the faster 22 centerfires and again it's nice to have the least muzzle upset possible when I can. 223 just doesn't cut it for me and never has. 223AI is getting close but I'd rather not fireform for it, something I do for other cartridges already and I guess I'm tired of it.
I’ve never figured out why naysayers continue to hang around continuously bashing said product. Yup, got you the first time.
Then if you really pay attention, they’re paper builders.
The continuous naysayers could do everyone a great service. Please leave your name and contact information so the industry can contact you and run ideas by you.
Then if you really pay attention, they’re paper builders.
The continuous naysayers could do everyone a great service. Please leave your name and contact information so the industry can contact you and run ideas by you.
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Your correct to each his own, and to be clear I think this cartridge will shine in an AR platform for those that don't hand load. Who knows maybe this will take off in bolt guns too, Bighorn and ARC coming out with bolt heads for it would certainly help. As for fire forming .223 AI, I've never found it harder than buying some remanufactured .223 ammo(LC brass) loading in the chamber and pressing the trigger.
I can see it serving a purpose. Hunting especially for the AR15 platform and i'm not going to lie it's pretty appealing to me. I've wanted a 22-250-esque cartridge in an AR15 platform for a long time. The other benefit i think it will offer is getting younger shooters started in PRS. Yes you can do it with other 22 cartridges but i'm willing to bet by the end of it you'll be able to find more factory match ammo in 224 valkryie than 22-250. I know the 6mm and 6.5s don't have much recoil with a brake but what's a little more recoil reduction?
The other crux is say if bullet manufacturers make a jump in high BC 5.56 projectiles. I mean you get to the mid .550s at 2900 or better and you're at a 105gr VLD @ 3000 on dasher or a 130gr AR Hybrid @ 2900 on a 6.5x47/6.5CM. Again as mentioned with less powder.
All in all it's another option and it's backed by a major player, that's something i don't mind at all.
The other crux is say if bullet manufacturers make a jump in high BC 5.56 projectiles. I mean you get to the mid .550s at 2900 or better and you're at a 105gr VLD @ 3000 on dasher or a 130gr AR Hybrid @ 2900 on a 6.5x47/6.5CM. Again as mentioned with less powder.
All in all it's another option and it's backed by a major player, that's something i don't mind at all.
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I know a lot of you guys think this has no purpose in a bolt gun, but I do believe it would be an outstanding lightweight walking varminter. Along the lines of a Savage 25, Zastava M85, Rem 799, etc. Something a tad over the weight of a .22, but with the right bullet/cartridge combo capable of reaching to 1k.
As far as being a negative on the Valkyrie, it may/may not work better than the .22 Nosler. Both are modified 6.8 SPC cases. The rebated rim on the Nosler isn't a plus in my mind. Not that I'm right on that, but having loaded them they are a bit of a PITA. You'll certainly have more repercussions for pushing pressure too hard. But, both will see an improvement over the .223. The issue of bolt face in an AR is a drawback for the .224V. If nothing else you have to change the bolt...at a cost.
As far as being a negative on the Valkyrie, it may/may not work better than the .22 Nosler. Both are modified 6.8 SPC cases. The rebated rim on the Nosler isn't a plus in my mind. Not that I'm right on that, but having loaded them they are a bit of a PITA. You'll certainly have more repercussions for pushing pressure too hard. But, both will see an improvement over the .223. The issue of bolt face in an AR is a drawback for the .224V. If nothing else you have to change the bolt...at a cost.
In a bolt gun, I'm quite pleased with .223AI and 22BR.
Though I'm not going to turn my nose up if someone wants to try coming to the table with something new. If I never do a valkyrie, I probably won't miss much since I have a .223AI and 22BR... but those that don't have either might have compelling reasons to have a valkyrie.
Though I'm not going to turn my nose up if someone wants to try coming to the table with something new. If I never do a valkyrie, I probably won't miss much since I have a .223AI and 22BR... but those that don't have either might have compelling reasons to have a valkyrie.
I get that, but what I am trying to understand is whether greater thrust is really an issue or not. There are a lot of 6.5 Grendel ARs out there and while the bolt is theoretically weaker than that fro the SPC and 223, I do not hear about them failing a whole lot.
If they do not fail due to that higher thrust, I am not sure it is a significant problem, unless you plan to really push pressures.
I am not sure if my primary interest is for a bolt gun or an AR. Off hand, I would probably be more likely to experiment with an AR first. In a bolt gun, it could be really interesting when a small frame Fix comes out. I am sorta intrigued by a micro-action rifle with easily interchangeable barrels.
If factory Valkyrie ammo is reasonably affordable, that will be a good way to go. If I have to handload for it, I would be more likely to go with a Grendel-based cartridge, since I have around 20 lbs of once fired Grendel brass laying around from my years of shooting it and since I already have a bunch of Grendel magazines.
ILya
Proabay depends on lots of factors. I had a bolt in an upper I sold that was still going at about 8k, and one in the drawer that sheared a lug at about 200 rounds. Both were 7.62x39 AR15s.
There is probably a fair bit of variance between different makers. I am not terribly up to speed on who makes what. The oldest of my Grendels had a bolt from Alexander Arms and it did not show any signs of damage when I sold it with around 1500 rounds through it. The one I am currently shooting has about 4000 rounds through it and I am not seeing any signs of damage. I also built a couple of Grendels with ARP bolts and barrels and those seem to be doing well. ARP claims to have a beefed up bolt though (and it seems to be).
In other words, I periodically check the bolt lugs on all my ARs, and so far I have no had issue with the Grendel bolts. Perhaps I should stick with ARP bolts going forward.
ILya
I tend to favor the Grendel for a parent case, but I do think the mix of "intermediate" cartridges and high bc bullets is something worth looking into. They tend to be very efficient.
Right now I'm building a lightweight cz527 in 6mm AR to shoot 110gr smks. .6 bc @2700-2800fps, I'm expecting to be pushing close to 6.5 Creedmoor trajectories with 30gr of powder and less recoil.
Right now I'm building a lightweight cz527 in 6mm AR to shoot 110gr smks. .6 bc @2700-2800fps, I'm expecting to be pushing close to 6.5 Creedmoor trajectories with 30gr of powder and less recoil.
I shoot 22 creed. It's awesome! My 22BR certainly doesn't take its place and the valkyrie won't either.
Personally I am looking forward to this cartridge. I am planning on an upper for my 5.56 SPR as well as a new bolt gun in this cartridge. Rumor is that The Q will come out with a Mini Fix in 224 Valkyrie, 300Blackout and 5.56MM. I will be in line for that Rifle.
Dumb question as I haven't seen it, is it a 6mm Creed necked down? Or, is it based off a smaller case?
Wow you guys must be young, there's been a cartridge around for a long time-22-6mm or as they call it down in Texas, the 22 TTH (Texas trophy hunter)
its been shooting hornady 75 gr AMAX's in excess of 3600 and Sierra MK 90's above 3500. Best ? Well just neck it down to .224 and start loading.
It was designed from the get go to shoot long bullets, it's shoots lighter ones too, 50's and 55's over 4500 FPS!!!!
sB
its been shooting hornady 75 gr AMAX's in excess of 3600 and Sierra MK 90's above 3500. Best ? Well just neck it down to .224 and start loading.
It was designed from the get go to shoot long bullets, it's shoots lighter ones too, 50's and 55's over 4500 FPS!!!!
sB
And before that there was the .220 Swift. There've been tight twisted .22 Cal barrels on the market since the '90's to launch higher BC bullets faster. You walk a fine line though getting them out there fast and not blowing them up.
Ork,
I would assume the .22-6mm (and .220 Swift) are mentioned in the same vein as the .22 Creed. A whole lot more capability in a cartridge. Therefore, without a need/niche, no reason to stay with the .224 Valkyrie in a bolt gun.
I see a niche, not everyone else does, though.
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Sandwarrior, you hit the nail on the head. The 224 Valkyrie's new 100 gr loading in a hunting bullet re sparked my interest in the 22-6mm. I have a large ring savage 12 single shot action I just ordered a new barrel for it. Wow a 100 gr 224 bullet at 3500 FPS!!!!!'
SB
SB
I don't know who is saying this, but I don't see it as possible. Fast, yes, that fast? No. I've seen bigger cases have a lot of problems getting a 100 gr. bullet to 3k, let alone 3500.
This is something I could see the Valkyrie shining in. A lightweight, but built for accuracy rig:
https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...rifles/6710002-howa-mini-action-chassis-rifle
https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...rifles/6710002-howa-mini-action-chassis-rifle
Are there faster cartridges?
Of course, a SAAMI 22-250 in a fast twist barrel will out perform it, let alone the .22-250 AI or .22-243 Middelstead (or whatever you want to call it).
Hell, you could neck down a a 6.5 PRC and get some really interesting shit happening.
What the .224 gives you is increased performance without the highly overbore condition.
A nice build on a model 7, Howa or CZ mini-action would make a dandy yote gun with the lighter bullets and a good whitetail round with the heavies.
I find it hard to believe "gun guys" would bitch about new cartridges coming out.
Of course, a SAAMI 22-250 in a fast twist barrel will out perform it, let alone the .22-250 AI or .22-243 Middelstead (or whatever you want to call it).
Hell, you could neck down a a 6.5 PRC and get some really interesting shit happening.
What the .224 gives you is increased performance without the highly overbore condition.
A nice build on a model 7, Howa or CZ mini-action would make a dandy yote gun with the lighter bullets and a good whitetail round with the heavies.
I find it hard to believe "gun guys" would bitch about new cartridges coming out.
Let’s be honest. If Remington added this to their SPS magpul tactical line up with a 24” barrel. It would sell pretty easy.
