What do you think better than average group sizes should be for a 22lr at 100, 200 & 300 yards? I'm thinking 10 shot groups. Not once in a life time groups but, just plain old good groups.
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Re: 22lr group sizes?
I would try and find ammo that would at least shoot 1 moa groups at those distances. My Savage MKII Mako will shoot .5 moa at 100 yards when I do my part. I put 20oz drink bottle top on the hundred yard berm and they are not very hard to hit with it. Don't get me wrong it only does that with the right ammo.
I would try and find ammo that would at least shoot 1 moa groups at those distances. My Savage MKII Mako will shoot .5 moa at 100 yards when I do my part. I put 20oz drink bottle top on the hundred yard berm and they are not very hard to hit with it. Don't get me wrong it only does that with the right ammo.
Re: 22lr group sizes?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 95LTZ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What do you think better than average group sizes should be for a 22lr at 100, 200 & 300 yards? I'm thinking 10 shot groups. Not once in a life time groups but, just plain old good groups.</div></div>
I am averaging just under 1 MOA @ 110 yards. With the right ammo, my average is about .75 MOA. AVERAGE including all fliers. These are all for 5-shot groups, not 10... big difference there.
I can get 1/2 MOA groups here and there at 110 yards, but not consistently. If I were to improve my shooting form enough shooting prone from a bipod, with the right ammo, I could probably get to .65 MOA on average... again, with 5-shot groups. I don't think I could do .5 MOA at that distance consistently. I will let you know when I get to 200 and 300 yards.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 95LTZ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What do you think better than average group sizes should be for a 22lr at 100, 200 & 300 yards? I'm thinking 10 shot groups. Not once in a life time groups but, just plain old good groups.</div></div>
I am averaging just under 1 MOA @ 110 yards. With the right ammo, my average is about .75 MOA. AVERAGE including all fliers. These are all for 5-shot groups, not 10... big difference there.
I can get 1/2 MOA groups here and there at 110 yards, but not consistently. If I were to improve my shooting form enough shooting prone from a bipod, with the right ammo, I could probably get to .65 MOA on average... again, with 5-shot groups. I don't think I could do .5 MOA at that distance consistently. I will let you know when I get to 200 and 300 yards.
Re: 22lr group sizes?
Oh, and this might be helpful, too:
If you scroll to the bottom, you see the rimfire benchrest world records.
http://www.benchrest.com/records.htm
The world record for 5 ten-shot groups is .8652"
The world record for 8 ten-shot groups is .8411"
So can you expect .5 MOA regularly at 100? If you do, you start competing, because you are world record material.
By the way, someone correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that these records are based on worst edge, so it is total group size without subtracting .224" for the bullet (which is how I am reporting).
Oh, and this might be helpful, too:
If you scroll to the bottom, you see the rimfire benchrest world records.
http://www.benchrest.com/records.htm
The world record for 5 ten-shot groups is .8652"
The world record for 8 ten-shot groups is .8411"
So can you expect .5 MOA regularly at 100? If you do, you start competing, because you are world record material.
By the way, someone correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that these records are based on worst edge, so it is total group size without subtracting .224" for the bullet (which is how I am reporting).
Re: 22lr group sizes?
My best runs 5 shots at around <span style="text-decoration: line-through">3/4"</span> (rechecking the tagets, it's actually more like 1") at 50yd (Longest spread minus about an obligatory 1/4"), and I'd be really happy with 2-3" at 100yd.
I don't know what you guys are doing, but you've all got me beat ten ways to Sunday...
My best runs 5 shots at around <span style="text-decoration: line-through">3/4"</span> (rechecking the tagets, it's actually more like 1") at 50yd (Longest spread minus about an obligatory 1/4"), and I'd be really happy with 2-3" at 100yd.
I don't know what you guys are doing, but you've all got me beat ten ways to Sunday...
Re: 22lr group sizes?
Using my 1913 Supermatch with a Weaver T36, 5 10-shot groups at 50yds (best edge) is 0.47", which is around 1 MOA. That is using Eley Black off a bag.
Using my 1913 Supermatch with a Weaver T36, 5 10-shot groups at 50yds (best edge) is 0.47", which is around 1 MOA. That is using Eley Black off a bag.
Re: 22lr group sizes?
I just had my targets out to give them another look. I am jumping the gun a bit saying .5 moa. The target I am shooting at is the 5.5" shoot-n-c (birchwood casey from wal-mart) its got a orange dot that looks like 3/8" but I could be wrong. Groups can be covered by a quarter so maybe just under 1 moa. Also these were 5 shot groups.
Will put my calibers on it when I make it the house.
.5 moa I guess was wishful thinking at 100 yards.
I just had my targets out to give them another look. I am jumping the gun a bit saying .5 moa. The target I am shooting at is the 5.5" shoot-n-c (birchwood casey from wal-mart) its got a orange dot that looks like 3/8" but I could be wrong. Groups can be covered by a quarter so maybe just under 1 moa. Also these were 5 shot groups.
Will put my calibers on it when I make it the house.
.5 moa I guess was wishful thinking at 100 yards.
Re: 22lr group sizes?
To keep me honest I was going to shoot some "Sniper's Hide Challenge" targets but I'm not good enough yet to keep 5 shots on each bullseye at 100 yds. Maybe I'll try the "SHC" target at 50 yards with a 22lr. Do you think that would be "Kosher"? I had piddled with the 22 at yardages but I certainly wasn't getting the results that it seems most others are getting. I'll just keep trying.
Semper Fi
To keep me honest I was going to shoot some "Sniper's Hide Challenge" targets but I'm not good enough yet to keep 5 shots on each bullseye at 100 yds. Maybe I'll try the "SHC" target at 50 yards with a 22lr. Do you think that would be "Kosher"? I had piddled with the 22 at yardages but I certainly wasn't getting the results that it seems most others are getting. I'll just keep trying.
Semper Fi
Re: 22lr group sizes?
Is that the target with like 25 dots the five at the very bottom of the page is a little bigger. I have shot that target with one shot each dot missing only one of the big spots was the very last shot I made talk about mad. HaHa
Five shots at each dot now that could get interesting.
Is that the target with like 25 dots the five at the very bottom of the page is a little bigger. I have shot that target with one shot each dot missing only one of the big spots was the very last shot I made talk about mad. HaHa
Five shots at each dot now that could get interesting.
Re: 22lr group sizes?
I've got an I/R 50/50 target stapled onto the garage's inner wall from a comp that my 'worked' 10/22 won, one round per mag using ten mags then reloading. Very hard to figure group sizes from single shots per bull, but it <span style="font-style: italic">did</span> win a small club comp.
Greg
I've got an I/R 50/50 target stapled onto the garage's inner wall from a comp that my 'worked' 10/22 won, one round per mag using ten mags then reloading. Very hard to figure group sizes from single shots per bull, but it <span style="font-style: italic">did</span> win a small club comp.
Greg
Re: 22lr group sizes?
I was thinking about the one with 5 dots on one page. You fire 5 shots at each dot & then avg. the 5 - 5 shot grouops. Very humbling with a centerfire @ 100 yards. I like that target because it stops all the jibber/jabber. If you can do it put the target up and have at it. I feel the goal should be to improve the individual shooting skills of all that want to participate. Old, fat & poor eye sight don't help but it's still fun.
I was thinking about the one with 5 dots on one page. You fire 5 shots at each dot & then avg. the 5 - 5 shot grouops. Very humbling with a centerfire @ 100 yards. I like that target because it stops all the jibber/jabber. If you can do it put the target up and have at it. I feel the goal should be to improve the individual shooting skills of all that want to participate. Old, fat & poor eye sight don't help but it's still fun.
Re: 22lr group sizes?
And remember, I am talking real MOA, not inches, and 110 yards, not 100. My best 5 X 5 has the following groups:
1. .624
2. .644
3. 1.402
4. .514
5. .701
I really wish I hadn't blown group 3. This is with a 40x in a McM stock I got from nesikabay with some Eley Tenex ammo that he shipped with the gun. I bought a different lot of Tenex and haven't been able to replicate this kind of performance despite the fact that my form has gotten better. I will be sampling new lots tomorrow and this weekend. Rimfire is kind of addicting.
I should note that my 17 HMR shoots a tad better at 100 yards as my 22LR with this bad lot of Eley Tenex. I paid $1500 for the 22LR and $320 for the Marlin 17 HMR. With the good ammo, my 22LR might be able to take on the Hummer.
50 yards is a different story. One ragged hole for my 22.
And remember, I am talking real MOA, not inches, and 110 yards, not 100. My best 5 X 5 has the following groups:
1. .624
2. .644
3. 1.402
4. .514
5. .701
I really wish I hadn't blown group 3. This is with a 40x in a McM stock I got from nesikabay with some Eley Tenex ammo that he shipped with the gun. I bought a different lot of Tenex and haven't been able to replicate this kind of performance despite the fact that my form has gotten better. I will be sampling new lots tomorrow and this weekend. Rimfire is kind of addicting.
I should note that my 17 HMR shoots a tad better at 100 yards as my 22LR with this bad lot of Eley Tenex. I paid $1500 for the 22LR and $320 for the Marlin 17 HMR. With the good ammo, my 22LR might be able to take on the Hummer.
50 yards is a different story. One ragged hole for my 22.
Re: 22lr group sizes?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My best runs 5 shots at around <span style="text-decoration: line-through">3/4"</span> (rechecking the tagets, it's actually more like 1") at 50yd (Longest spread minus about an obligatory 1/4"), and I'd be really happy with 2-3" at 100yd.
I don't know what you guys are doing, but you've all got me beat ten ways to Sunday...</div></div>
What is your setup, Greg? How is the 10/22 worked? I really don't think that you can expect to get the same performance out of a 10/22 as a trued 40x or a custom action. And then there is the ammo... Eley makes the best, but you are stuck paying $11 for Match and $16 for Tenex... and they you have to test lots to see what your gun likes. I know they say it is the shooter, not the gun, but in rimfire, the gun + ammo is really important.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My best runs 5 shots at around <span style="text-decoration: line-through">3/4"</span> (rechecking the tagets, it's actually more like 1") at 50yd (Longest spread minus about an obligatory 1/4"), and I'd be really happy with 2-3" at 100yd.
I don't know what you guys are doing, but you've all got me beat ten ways to Sunday...</div></div>
What is your setup, Greg? How is the 10/22 worked? I really don't think that you can expect to get the same performance out of a 10/22 as a trued 40x or a custom action. And then there is the ammo... Eley makes the best, but you are stuck paying $11 for Match and $16 for Tenex... and they you have to test lots to see what your gun likes. I know they say it is the shooter, not the gun, but in rimfire, the gun + ammo is really important.
Re: 22lr group sizes?
Mr. Mayfield does your 40X have a black/white/gray swirl stock w/adj. cheekpiece & buttplate, Very heavy Kreiger bbl? If it does then I think that you will find that it really likes Wolf Match Xtra.
Mr. Mayfield does your 40X have a black/white/gray swirl stock w/adj. cheekpiece & buttplate, Very heavy Kreiger bbl? If it does then I think that you will find that it really likes Wolf Match Xtra.
Re: 22lr group sizes?
The ammo my savage likes is old green box Remington Sub-sonics it's the best shooting ammo I've run thru it. GRuff gave me a box of Wolf match to try just havn't got around to it. But man that little rifle will sure shoot that Remington Sub-Sonic ammo.
The ammo my savage likes is old green box Remington Sub-sonics it's the best shooting ammo I've run thru it. GRuff gave me a box of Wolf match to try just havn't got around to it. But man that little rifle will sure shoot that Remington Sub-Sonic ammo.
Re: 22lr group sizes?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 95LTZ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mr. Mayfield does your 40X have a black/white/gray swirl stock w/adj. cheekpiece & buttplate, Very heavy Kreiger bbl? If it does then I think that you will find that it really likes Wolf Match Xtra.</div></div>
That would be the one. Is that a Jewell trigger in there? I love this gun. I was going to convert it to 17HMR, but it shoots way too good to mess with. nesikabay gave me a box of Eley 10x 5 machine 1061 fps ammo that shot lights out. All out and I bought a brick that just wasn't the same. I will PM you on it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 95LTZ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mr. Mayfield does your 40X have a black/white/gray swirl stock w/adj. cheekpiece & buttplate, Very heavy Kreiger bbl? If it does then I think that you will find that it really likes Wolf Match Xtra.</div></div>
That would be the one. Is that a Jewell trigger in there? I love this gun. I was going to convert it to 17HMR, but it shoots way too good to mess with. nesikabay gave me a box of Eley 10x 5 machine 1061 fps ammo that shot lights out. All out and I bought a brick that just wasn't the same. I will PM you on it.
Re: 22lr group sizes?
depends on what you would call average; average joe with an average .22 rifle with average ammo would probably have a much more open group than the figures given, maybe even 3+ inch groups, and probably more at 100. i'd take a guess though that an average shooter doesn't venture much further out than 50 yards with th .22 so better than average may be considered anything under that. seems that most of the guys here get -2" groups and usually under 1.25" at 100. the benchrest guys anything ususally get them all touching, but their equipment and rests are extreme machines.
i'd take a guess though that an average shooter doesn't venture much further out than 50 yards with th .22
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/gallery/27/medium/2367.jpg
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/gallery/27/thumbs/2368.jpg hard to read, 5" at 200 yards no rear bag
those groups shrink a bit with a rear bag, i did a little ammo test a few months ago....
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...532#Post1037532
is it average or better than average? don't know, but realisticly i don't expect much better from that set up.
depends on what you would call average; average joe with an average .22 rifle with average ammo would probably have a much more open group than the figures given, maybe even 3+ inch groups, and probably more at 100. i'd take a guess though that an average shooter doesn't venture much further out than 50 yards with th .22 so better than average may be considered anything under that. seems that most of the guys here get -2" groups and usually under 1.25" at 100. the benchrest guys anything ususally get them all touching, but their equipment and rests are extreme machines.
i'd take a guess though that an average shooter doesn't venture much further out than 50 yards with th .22
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/gallery/27/medium/2367.jpg
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/gallery/27/thumbs/2368.jpg hard to read, 5" at 200 yards no rear bag
those groups shrink a bit with a rear bag, i did a little ammo test a few months ago....
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...532#Post1037532
is it average or better than average? don't know, but realisticly i don't expect much better from that set up.
Re: 22lr group sizes?
95LTZ now I know why you didn't go shoot today. Been playing with the internet kids again. You know your mama told you this crowd will get you in trouble? I might not tell but it's going to cost, LOL. You get your chores done? I'm all packed for Saturday and it's on as of noon today. There's a pistol shoot now after the rimfire match. Got your email about the K-pot and Flat Vest. Most likely not a porblem just got to know when. And I doubt it's part of a qual course. Most likely Fam Fire Course. Donald
95LTZ now I know why you didn't go shoot today. Been playing with the internet kids again. You know your mama told you this crowd will get you in trouble? I might not tell but it's going to cost, LOL. You get your chores done? I'm all packed for Saturday and it's on as of noon today. There's a pistol shoot now after the rimfire match. Got your email about the K-pot and Flat Vest. Most likely not a porblem just got to know when. And I doubt it's part of a qual course. Most likely Fam Fire Course. Donald
Re: 22lr group sizes?
I guess you could call me an "average".22 shooter. Using a stock Remington 581 and a 10-22 with a bull barrel and some drop in parts I shoot the Winchester Power Points for wrecking havoc on the local squirrels. I dont put it on paper alot but the last time I did both were running about 1.5" at 100 with hunting ammo and that works for me. I do most of my shooting to about 125-150yards before I reach for a centerfire. Until recently I never even really thought about reaching out that far with a .22 but I will be heading out this weekend to give it a whirl.
I guess you could call me an "average".22 shooter. Using a stock Remington 581 and a 10-22 with a bull barrel and some drop in parts I shoot the Winchester Power Points for wrecking havoc on the local squirrels. I dont put it on paper alot but the last time I did both were running about 1.5" at 100 with hunting ammo and that works for me. I do most of my shooting to about 125-150yards before I reach for a centerfire. Until recently I never even really thought about reaching out that far with a .22 but I will be heading out this weekend to give it a whirl.
Re: 22lr group sizes?
My average 15 shot - 100 yard groups seem to measure in the 1 3/8 to 1 3/4 inch neighborhood. My best was 1 1/16" for 10 shots. I did these early when I was finally able to get out to the Range with my new Savage Mark II FVT and do some work with the Mil-Dot scope after getting a 50 yard zero.
I felt pretty good about those results at the time, and it propelled me to pursue the longer range shooting of gongs, (out to 250 yards as of yesterday - while 275 and 300 yards lay in wait). Were I to go back to 100 yards and shoot for group I think I could improve on my groupings now and shrink them.
I "think" I may hamper myself in a way as I only use the rifle's bipod & sling off the bench rather then using sandbags. I also never use any rear support other then snugging the rifle in to my shoulder. In reality I'm not hampering myself as this is the way I choose to shoot.
As for average shooters I really don't know if I could put them into a group as there are to many variables involved with that. One's rifle, quality of scope or sighting system, ammo used, method of shooting, full rifle bench support or partial bench support, use of sling and bipod? I'm sure there is more variables that belong on this list, so it's tough for me to think of average shooters and who they might be.
As for average range at which most shoot, I'd say 25 to 50 yards and naturally I respect that of any shooter who chooses those ranges. They'd probably school me in a heart beat.
There's some real good interesting information in this thread for sure!
My average 15 shot - 100 yard groups seem to measure in the 1 3/8 to 1 3/4 inch neighborhood. My best was 1 1/16" for 10 shots. I did these early when I was finally able to get out to the Range with my new Savage Mark II FVT and do some work with the Mil-Dot scope after getting a 50 yard zero.
I felt pretty good about those results at the time, and it propelled me to pursue the longer range shooting of gongs, (out to 250 yards as of yesterday - while 275 and 300 yards lay in wait). Were I to go back to 100 yards and shoot for group I think I could improve on my groupings now and shrink them.
I "think" I may hamper myself in a way as I only use the rifle's bipod & sling off the bench rather then using sandbags. I also never use any rear support other then snugging the rifle in to my shoulder. In reality I'm not hampering myself as this is the way I choose to shoot.
As for average shooters I really don't know if I could put them into a group as there are to many variables involved with that. One's rifle, quality of scope or sighting system, ammo used, method of shooting, full rifle bench support or partial bench support, use of sling and bipod? I'm sure there is more variables that belong on this list, so it's tough for me to think of average shooters and who they might be.
As for average range at which most shoot, I'd say 25 to 50 yards and naturally I respect that of any shooter who chooses those ranges. They'd probably school me in a heart beat.
There's some real good interesting information in this thread for sure!
Re: 22lr group sizes?
Just got back from the range and shot another 5 X 5 @ 110 yds... including my best group at 100 yet. In MOA:
1. 0.440!
2. 1.075
3. 1.357
4. 0.623
5. 0.969
Average: 0.893
Group 3 includes a major flier directly 9 O'Clock about 1 1/4" off. I am still trying to figure out what happened. If I didn't have that flier, it would have been my best 5 X 5 yet.
I hope this helps. When I am done testing ammo, I will try out 200 and 300 yards, but will probably stick with 5 X 5's.
Just got back from the range and shot another 5 X 5 @ 110 yds... including my best group at 100 yet. In MOA:
1. 0.440!
2. 1.075
3. 1.357
4. 0.623
5. 0.969
Average: 0.893
Group 3 includes a major flier directly 9 O'Clock about 1 1/4" off. I am still trying to figure out what happened. If I didn't have that flier, it would have been my best 5 X 5 yet.
I hope this helps. When I am done testing ammo, I will try out 200 and 300 yards, but will probably stick with 5 X 5's.
Re: 22lr group sizes?
My rifle is a relatively plain receiver, a bolt my Brother had sent out and had professionally worked to improve the bolt face, Volquartsen trigger internals and big mag release, and a barrel and laminated sorta truck challenge-ish laminated stock that was marketed by Kimber about a dozen years ago for custom usage. .920" diameter, like the rest, stainless, maybe of L-W origin, I don't know. Fed GMM.
Cycles funny, I get some stoppages, but it shoots best I've seen of any .22lr; bets heck out of the half dozen Butler Creek based Zombie Rifles I've built in the past. My knowledge is not the deep or wide.
Greg
My rifle is a relatively plain receiver, a bolt my Brother had sent out and had professionally worked to improve the bolt face, Volquartsen trigger internals and big mag release, and a barrel and laminated sorta truck challenge-ish laminated stock that was marketed by Kimber about a dozen years ago for custom usage. .920" diameter, like the rest, stainless, maybe of L-W origin, I don't know. Fed GMM.
Cycles funny, I get some stoppages, but it shoots best I've seen of any .22lr; bets heck out of the half dozen Butler Creek based Zombie Rifles I've built in the past. My knowledge is not the deep or wide.
Greg
Re: 22lr group sizes?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My rifle is a relatively plain receiver, a bolt my Brother had sent out and had professionally worked to improve the bolt face, Volquartsen trigger internals and big mag release, and a barrel and laminated sorta truck challenge-ish laminated stock that was marketed by Kimber about a dozen years ago for custom usage. .920" diameter, like the rest, stainless, maybe of L-W origin, I don't know. Fed GMM.
Cycles funny, I get some stoppages, but it shoots best I've seen of any .22lr; bets heck out of the half dozen Butler Creek based Zombie Rifles I've built in the past. My knowledge is not the deep or wide.
Greg</div></div>
Did you say Green Mountain barrel? There are plenty of things you can do to accurize a 10-22, for sure. These guys specialize in it: http://www.ct-precision.com/ruger10-22.html
But at the end of the day, it is a semi-automatic weapon and generally, the most accurate gas gun is not going to be as accurate as the most accurate bolt gun.
My setup is single shot. It is set up for iron sights prone shooting (meaning extra long barrel), but I shoot it with a scope and bipod off of a TAB rear bag. I don't consider myself any kind of a serious shot by any stretch of the imagination, nor am I lying about my performance. I am counting all fliers. The only conclusion that I can reach is that my gun really shoots. It is the first "custom" that I have owned and definitely outshoots my other rifles (that .440 MOA group today officially tops the best I have done with my .17 HMR and it matches the HMR on average at 100 yards.).
The other thing is ammo. Have you tried Match Eley? They make Match and Tenex specifically for semi-autos. It might be worth trying out a box to see what it can do. Another thing to remember is that not all lots are created equal. The same make and model of ammo in a different lot will probably shoot differently.
If you check out the benchrest central rimfire forum, you find these guys are compulsive about finding the perfect lot. As much time as center fire folks spend working up a load, they spend looking for the right lot. It is a lot of fun, actually.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My rifle is a relatively plain receiver, a bolt my Brother had sent out and had professionally worked to improve the bolt face, Volquartsen trigger internals and big mag release, and a barrel and laminated sorta truck challenge-ish laminated stock that was marketed by Kimber about a dozen years ago for custom usage. .920" diameter, like the rest, stainless, maybe of L-W origin, I don't know. Fed GMM.
Cycles funny, I get some stoppages, but it shoots best I've seen of any .22lr; bets heck out of the half dozen Butler Creek based Zombie Rifles I've built in the past. My knowledge is not the deep or wide.
Greg</div></div>
Did you say Green Mountain barrel? There are plenty of things you can do to accurize a 10-22, for sure. These guys specialize in it: http://www.ct-precision.com/ruger10-22.html
But at the end of the day, it is a semi-automatic weapon and generally, the most accurate gas gun is not going to be as accurate as the most accurate bolt gun.
My setup is single shot. It is set up for iron sights prone shooting (meaning extra long barrel), but I shoot it with a scope and bipod off of a TAB rear bag. I don't consider myself any kind of a serious shot by any stretch of the imagination, nor am I lying about my performance. I am counting all fliers. The only conclusion that I can reach is that my gun really shoots. It is the first "custom" that I have owned and definitely outshoots my other rifles (that .440 MOA group today officially tops the best I have done with my .17 HMR and it matches the HMR on average at 100 yards.).
The other thing is ammo. Have you tried Match Eley? They make Match and Tenex specifically for semi-autos. It might be worth trying out a box to see what it can do. Another thing to remember is that not all lots are created equal. The same make and model of ammo in a different lot will probably shoot differently.
If you check out the benchrest central rimfire forum, you find these guys are compulsive about finding the perfect lot. As much time as center fire folks spend working up a load, they spend looking for the right lot. It is a lot of fun, actually.
Re: 22lr group sizes?
Holy Crap! Outstanding shooting. Man, do I have my work cut out for me. Now I really have to buckle down & pay attention to what I'm doing. I won't be able to get to the range until next week to give it a go. Again congrats! I think many folks myself included would have a hard time doing that with centerfire rigs otherwise we'd see more Sniper's Hide Challenge targets posted.
Holy Crap! Outstanding shooting. Man, do I have my work cut out for me. Now I really have to buckle down & pay attention to what I'm doing. I won't be able to get to the range until next week to give it a go. Again congrats! I think many folks myself included would have a hard time doing that with centerfire rigs otherwise we'd see more Sniper's Hide Challenge targets posted.
Re: 22lr group sizes?
Once I figure out how to post those, I will. That 1 flier killed me. Take it away, and that group would have been .77 on average. Woulda' shoulda' coulda'.
I thought I had found that magic ammo, but that previous 5 X 5 is still better with or without fliers.
Jacob doesn't seem to have a problem shooting 5 in .5 MOA in 20 seconds and taping it. That 5 X 5 takes me about an hour to shoot. There is setup and cease-fires in there, but we are looking at 2 minutes a shot checking NPA each time.
Once I figure out how to post those, I will. That 1 flier killed me. Take it away, and that group would have been .77 on average. Woulda' shoulda' coulda'.
I thought I had found that magic ammo, but that previous 5 X 5 is still better with or without fliers.
Jacob doesn't seem to have a problem shooting 5 in .5 MOA in 20 seconds and taping it. That 5 X 5 takes me about an hour to shoot. There is setup and cease-fires in there, but we are looking at 2 minutes a shot checking NPA each time.
Re: 22lr group sizes?
Next week I'll just start slingin' lead at the target & see what happens. Good or bad I'll post it.
Next week I'll just start slingin' lead at the target & see what happens. Good or bad I'll post it.
Re: 22lr group sizes?
My plain jane out of the box Savage BTVS .22 will shoot about 1.5-2 MOA with Wolf. The 50 yard groups are better than that but I have not taken it out to 200 yards yet. Some days it's better than that, some days it's worse. I can expect that it will turn in at least a 2" group at 100 unless the wind really picks up and I am not paying attention.
I still need to play with it a bit to see how much more accuracy is available without going to extreme measures.
My plain jane out of the box Savage BTVS .22 will shoot about 1.5-2 MOA with Wolf. The 50 yard groups are better than that but I have not taken it out to 200 yards yet. Some days it's better than that, some days it's worse. I can expect that it will turn in at least a 2" group at 100 unless the wind really picks up and I am not paying attention.
I still need to play with it a bit to see how much more accuracy is available without going to extreme measures.
Re: 22lr group sizes?
Let me try my image-foo. (all 110 yards - click the thumbnail for full size)
Here is my best 5X5
As you can see, a number doesn't do it justice. When I say I blew group 3, I really blew group 3.
1. .624
2. .644
3. 1.402
4. .514
5. .701
Here is my best group (upper left - shot today)
1. 0.440
2. 1.075
3. 1.357
4. 0.623
5. 0.969
Let me try my image-foo. (all 110 yards - click the thumbnail for full size)
Here is my best 5X5
As you can see, a number doesn't do it justice. When I say I blew group 3, I really blew group 3.
1. .624
2. .644
3. 1.402
4. .514
5. .701
Here is my best group (upper left - shot today)
1. 0.440
2. 1.075
3. 1.357
4. 0.623
5. 0.969
Re: 22lr group sizes?
I must defer. But that 10/22 is listed right after my Ghost Dancer and my Garand in my will.
I must defer. But that 10/22 is listed right after my Ghost Dancer and my Garand in my will.
Re: 22lr group sizes?
You can will it to me
I have no prejudices against 10/22's. Especially accurized ones.
You can will it to me
I have no prejudices against 10/22's. Especially accurized ones.
Re: 22lr group sizes?
Nope.
Got this Grandson with a true 'Evil Eyed Sharpshooter' look about him...
Couple more years, when I can feel truly confortable turning my back on him with a gun in his hands, and he'll be all over that 10/22.
Trust me...
Nope.
Got this Grandson with a true 'Evil Eyed Sharpshooter' look about him...
Couple more years, when I can feel truly confortable turning my back on him with a gun in his hands, and he'll be all over that 10/22.
Trust me...
Re: 22lr group sizes?
Great for him. My son is two, so it will be a few years yet until he gets to decide if the sport is for him.
Great for him. My son is two, so it will be a few years yet until he gets to decide if the sport is for him.
Re: 22lr group sizes?
Well I was able to go to the range today. No Joy! Tried lots of different ammo but didn't find one that it liked. I have a tried & true old CMP 40X that I used as a constant. I wasn't having the best best day "driving". With expensive ammo Federal UM1 & RWS R50 I was able to shoot a couple of groups. By the time I got done trying ammo in the other gun I didn't have enough to run a complete SHC target. I was able to get a 1/2" group with R50 & 1 group of 11/16ths. These were only 5 shots. While waiting for range day I weight sorted some Federal Blue box #510. Surprisingly it shot better than the expensive stuff in the other rifle. I thought that it was my driving so I asked Don to shoot it. He tried even more ammo (high end stuff) that he had brought. He was not able to get very good results either. Tomorrow I'll take the rifle apart for a complete look see if I can find anything glaring which would cause the poor performance. The one thing I did find out today. I the two rifles that I shot it in. Weight sorted cheap ammo is way better than cheap ammo right out of the box. Later I will have measured groups. The other problem today was that I forgot the box with the extra SHC targets & my ear muffs. Foam plugs worked ok as all we were firing was 22's.
Well I was able to go to the range today. No Joy! Tried lots of different ammo but didn't find one that it liked. I have a tried & true old CMP 40X that I used as a constant. I wasn't having the best best day "driving". With expensive ammo Federal UM1 & RWS R50 I was able to shoot a couple of groups. By the time I got done trying ammo in the other gun I didn't have enough to run a complete SHC target. I was able to get a 1/2" group with R50 & 1 group of 11/16ths. These were only 5 shots. While waiting for range day I weight sorted some Federal Blue box #510. Surprisingly it shot better than the expensive stuff in the other rifle. I thought that it was my driving so I asked Don to shoot it. He tried even more ammo (high end stuff) that he had brought. He was not able to get very good results either. Tomorrow I'll take the rifle apart for a complete look see if I can find anything glaring which would cause the poor performance. The one thing I did find out today. I the two rifles that I shot it in. Weight sorted cheap ammo is way better than cheap ammo right out of the box. Later I will have measured groups. The other problem today was that I forgot the box with the extra SHC targets & my ear muffs. Foam plugs worked ok as all we were firing was 22's.
Re: 22lr group sizes?
Your findings on the Federal 510 is the same that many of us have found out as well. It shoots pretty darn good. Weighing and sorting can only be a plus in my opionion. Keep us posted on further testing.
Your findings on the Federal 510 is the same that many of us have found out as well. It shoots pretty darn good. Weighing and sorting can only be a plus in my opionion. Keep us posted on further testing.
Re: 22lr group sizes?
I have had a bad streak recently. I am out of that good lot of ammo and I seem to be averaging about 1.2 MOA with the stuff I have been testing. No luck finding that perfect lot yet.
I have had a bad streak recently. I am out of that good lot of ammo and I seem to be averaging about 1.2 MOA with the stuff I have been testing. No luck finding that perfect lot yet.
Re: 22lr group sizes?
Took the rifle apart to see if I could find anything glaringly wrong. I found a few things that I changing. I had to clearance (grind) the stock so that the bolt could be removed. Opened/smoothed up the mag well area. Cleaned the lead flakes out of the bore. Removed the bedding so that just the action is bedded. The recoil lug is in the bedding, so you have to lower the action slot over the lug in the bedding. Not the way I would've done it but that's the way it is now. I'll shoot it Friday (hopefully) to see if any of the stuff made a difference.
Took the rifle apart to see if I could find anything glaringly wrong. I found a few things that I changing. I had to clearance (grind) the stock so that the bolt could be removed. Opened/smoothed up the mag well area. Cleaned the lead flakes out of the bore. Removed the bedding so that just the action is bedded. The recoil lug is in the bedding, so you have to lower the action slot over the lug in the bedding. Not the way I would've done it but that's the way it is now. I'll shoot it Friday (hopefully) to see if any of the stuff made a difference.
Re: 22lr group sizes?
One of the thing that I am finding for groups is that I am better off getting the groups downrange as quickly as possible before the wind shifts. I was looking at old groups and was wondering why my groups have been getting larger... after all, I am taking more time per shot to test for NPA every time.
Nope... better to test for NPA the first time and get the next four downrange as quickly as possible. This is for groups, mind you. This is why shooting groups may actually be detrimental to shooting well.
One of the thing that I am finding for groups is that I am better off getting the groups downrange as quickly as possible before the wind shifts. I was looking at old groups and was wondering why my groups have been getting larger... after all, I am taking more time per shot to test for NPA every time.
Nope... better to test for NPA the first time and get the next four downrange as quickly as possible. This is for groups, mind you. This is why shooting groups may actually be detrimental to shooting well.
Re: 22lr group sizes?
My first go with a Magnum Research 10/22 with a Clark barrel - Wolf match extra - some 3 and 5 shot groups and one 10 shot at 50... 1" squares
My first go with a Magnum Research 10/22 with a Clark barrel - Wolf match extra - some 3 and 5 shot groups and one 10 shot at 50... 1" squares
Re: 22lr group sizes?
I was able to get to the range today. Today's exercise was to find the sweet spot for action torque. After several tries the rifle showed a preference for 35 inch lbs. The testing range that I tried was from 25 - 40 inch lbs. I also tested weight sorted & then some weight sorted + sorting by rim thickness. I didn't notice any difference in the rim thickness sorting. But I will definitely be sorting by weight. I feel that the sorting by rim thickness has some value but not at my skill level. I try & post the target pics tomorrow.
I was able to get to the range today. Today's exercise was to find the sweet spot for action torque. After several tries the rifle showed a preference for 35 inch lbs. The testing range that I tried was from 25 - 40 inch lbs. I also tested weight sorted & then some weight sorted + sorting by rim thickness. I didn't notice any difference in the rim thickness sorting. But I will definitely be sorting by weight. I feel that the sorting by rim thickness has some value but not at my skill level. I try & post the target pics tomorrow.
Re: 22lr group sizes?
after weighing them which i believe is worth the effort and makes a difference especially on cheaper ammo, try a little coating of alox bullet lube on them - see 22 ammo lube test http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...280#Post1180280
i don't have a rim thickness gauge (yet) but i would have to believe it makes a difference. the thicker the rim the more overall length, the thinner the less o.a.l. and everything in between. you wouldn't want that with the center fire rounds, so i imagine the rim thickness sort would help group size.
after weighing them which i believe is worth the effort and makes a difference especially on cheaper ammo, try a little coating of alox bullet lube on them - see 22 ammo lube test http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...280#Post1180280
i don't have a rim thickness gauge (yet) but i would have to believe it makes a difference. the thicker the rim the more overall length, the thinner the less o.a.l. and everything in between. you wouldn't want that with the center fire rounds, so i imagine the rim thickness sort would help group size.
Re: 22lr group sizes?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TOP PREDATOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
i don't have a rim thickness gauge (yet) but i would have to believe it makes a difference. the thicker the rim the more overall length, the thinner the less o.a.l. and everything in between. you wouldn't want that with the center fire rounds, so i imagine the rim thickness sort would help group size. </div></div>
I read somewhere that sorting by rim thickness used to work until the ammo companies figured out that shooters were doing this, so they starting targeting rim thickness tolerances. The result was that the ammo didn't get any better, but sorting by rim thickness doesn't work as well. Just something I read on benchrest.com or rimfire central.
The idea was that rim thickness used to indicate something before. They didn't change that variable, they just masked it.
Sorting by weight might work. I haven't tried it. I like the idea of sorting by runout/concentricity. I hear this works really well for 17 HMR and 17M2 bullets. I haven't heard of a lot of people doing it for 22LR.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TOP PREDATOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
i don't have a rim thickness gauge (yet) but i would have to believe it makes a difference. the thicker the rim the more overall length, the thinner the less o.a.l. and everything in between. you wouldn't want that with the center fire rounds, so i imagine the rim thickness sort would help group size. </div></div>
I read somewhere that sorting by rim thickness used to work until the ammo companies figured out that shooters were doing this, so they starting targeting rim thickness tolerances. The result was that the ammo didn't get any better, but sorting by rim thickness doesn't work as well. Just something I read on benchrest.com or rimfire central.
The idea was that rim thickness used to indicate something before. They didn't change that variable, they just masked it.
Sorting by weight might work. I haven't tried it. I like the idea of sorting by runout/concentricity. I hear this works really well for 17 HMR and 17M2 bullets. I haven't heard of a lot of people doing it for 22LR.
Re: 22lr group sizes?
I have 2 sealed bricks of the old Federal UM1. I have a few 50 rd stray boxes of it that I weight sorted just to see if there was any spread. Yup, plus or minus 2 tenths of a grain. The rimthickness only varies by the width of half a pointer needle on the dial indicator. The rifle didn't ride the bags very well at all. I'm attaching one of those 3" benchrest gizmo's for tomorrow. Don & I will be shooting/testing again tomorrow.
I have 2 sealed bricks of the old Federal UM1. I have a few 50 rd stray boxes of it that I weight sorted just to see if there was any spread. Yup, plus or minus 2 tenths of a grain. The rimthickness only varies by the width of half a pointer needle on the dial indicator. The rifle didn't ride the bags very well at all. I'm attaching one of those 3" benchrest gizmo's for tomorrow. Don & I will be shooting/testing again tomorrow.
Re: 22lr group sizes?
Here's some targets that've taken pictures of. Yesterday shot a bunch more at 50 yards. Had a few that were .200" CTC, most where .375" to .500",CTC, with wolf MT. 100 yards is more fun I just need a new scope.
Here's some targets that've taken pictures of. Yesterday shot a bunch more at 50 yards. Had a few that were .200" CTC, most where .375" to .500",CTC, with wolf MT. 100 yards is more fun I just need a new scope.
Re: 22lr group sizes?
All the things that I did helped, but just little. I had to stay at 50 yards for the ammo/rifle improvement testing. The rifle shoots better than OK just not what I think it should. I went over the whole rifle with a magnifying glass. The only thing that I could find was lots of tiny burrs in the crown area. It's at the gunsmith right now for a fresh crown. After that there are no more excuses. I did weight sort some Wolf Match Target. The lot that I have has a worse spread than the Fed. 510. The random Wolf MT shot very good in the 40X. Looking forward to try some weight sorted MT in the 40X. All of the ammo that I have weight sorted tightened up groups somewhat. Hopefully I'll be able to get the rifle back from the 'smith with the fresh crown near the end of the coming week.
All the things that I did helped, but just little. I had to stay at 50 yards for the ammo/rifle improvement testing. The rifle shoots better than OK just not what I think it should. I went over the whole rifle with a magnifying glass. The only thing that I could find was lots of tiny burrs in the crown area. It's at the gunsmith right now for a fresh crown. After that there are no more excuses. I did weight sort some Wolf Match Target. The lot that I have has a worse spread than the Fed. 510. The random Wolf MT shot very good in the 40X. Looking forward to try some weight sorted MT in the 40X. All of the ammo that I have weight sorted tightened up groups somewhat. Hopefully I'll be able to get the rifle back from the 'smith with the fresh crown near the end of the coming week.
Re: 22lr group sizes?
I have an update. I finally went out to 200 yards today. It was ranged anywhere from 205 yards to 220. I use 215 for my calcs. The wind was rough today. At 50 yards, I was shooting good to great. At 100 yards, I was averaging just over MOA (about 1.1), which is poor for me at 100 yards with this rifle.
At 215 yards, I got 5-shot groups of 5 5/8", 3 5/16", 2 7/8", and 2 9/16". In MOA, 2.55, 1.79, 1.30, 1.16 with an average of 1.70 MOA for 4 5-shot groups. I think I can do better, I have been shooting at 50 yards a lot lately, and while fun, shooting at distance is a whole different ball of wax. I think I have gotten a little sloppy.
If you are interested, I have my rifle zeroed at 50 yards. It takes 2.3 mils to get to 110 yards and 7.5 mils to get to 215 yards. or at least I should say that is what it took today.
I hope to shoot at 200 yards more often. It was a real kick in the pants. You can practically do a load of laundry in the time it takes the bullet to reach the target.
I have an update. I finally went out to 200 yards today. It was ranged anywhere from 205 yards to 220. I use 215 for my calcs. The wind was rough today. At 50 yards, I was shooting good to great. At 100 yards, I was averaging just over MOA (about 1.1), which is poor for me at 100 yards with this rifle.
At 215 yards, I got 5-shot groups of 5 5/8", 3 5/16", 2 7/8", and 2 9/16". In MOA, 2.55, 1.79, 1.30, 1.16 with an average of 1.70 MOA for 4 5-shot groups. I think I can do better, I have been shooting at 50 yards a lot lately, and while fun, shooting at distance is a whole different ball of wax. I think I have gotten a little sloppy.
If you are interested, I have my rifle zeroed at 50 yards. It takes 2.3 mils to get to 110 yards and 7.5 mils to get to 215 yards. or at least I should say that is what it took today.
I hope to shoot at 200 yards more often. It was a real kick in the pants. You can practically do a load of laundry in the time it takes the bullet to reach the target.
Re: 22lr group sizes?
Well, I finally remebered why I did the bolt radiusing mod, and fed her some CCI Subsonic target. She purrs with no hiccups.
BTW, the barrel and stock are from Kimber, no longer available. The barrel is stainless and has a fair probability of a L_W origin. The stock is a green/black laminate styled along the lines of the Anschutz.
I bit the bullet and put the Grandson at the bench, sitting on some pads, with an improvised rest; and put targets at 50yd and 100yd. He put 10/10 in a 1" circle at 50yd, and 9/10 in a 2" circle at 100yd. Not bad for a first outing.
Greg
Well, I finally remebered why I did the bolt radiusing mod, and fed her some CCI Subsonic target. She purrs with no hiccups.
BTW, the barrel and stock are from Kimber, no longer available. The barrel is stainless and has a fair probability of a L_W origin. The stock is a green/black laminate styled along the lines of the Anschutz.
I bit the bullet and put the Grandson at the bench, sitting on some pads, with an improvised rest; and put targets at 50yd and 100yd. He put 10/10 in a 1" circle at 50yd, and 9/10 in a 2" circle at 100yd. Not bad for a first outing.
Greg
