22 LR Long Range Dispersion, What is the Culprit

[ChrisFetter]

Had a couple of hours on the range this morning. Great weather for Virginia at the moment except for the higher wind today. Rifle is a stock CZ 453 that was put into a Boyds stock this year for a better cheek weld (picture from at different day). I could only get out to 100 yards today since the wind was too unpredictable for my amateur wind calling.

Started 9AM and finished at 11:45AM, 81F rose to 87F through the shoot, roughly 29.2 in. pressure, and 10-15 mph switching winds. Really felt like no exploitable pattern to the wind speed and direction; it was switching front to back from the left side mostly, but the right side gusts would come in to mess things up when groups started looking good. There'd be crazy gusts out near the target with the air dead still beside me, and then crazy wind on my face but a flag near the target was still. A fun challenge to try to call right!

Ignore the X'd hits- my foggy morning brain dialed 27 MOA instead of 27 clicks at the start of shooting, and those were hits while I was shooting at different spots trying to figure out what in the world was going on.

 

[ChrisFetter]

2 weeks ago, there was much calmer weather and I was out at 200- these were the groups I had then with Eley Tenex. The target got a bit crowded since I only had one target with me, but I recorded which shots were part of each group immediately after firing to make sure I didn't get holes mixed up.

 

[ChrisFetter]

Past 200 yards, things start getting a lot more unpredictable with my rifle. A twist rate faster than 1:16" might be better for longer range shooting with .22lr (for the improvement to BC to help with wind sensitivity), but I think the biggest reason people notice .22lr "fall off" past 200-300 yards is that the trajectory curve of the bullet at longer ranges serves as a magnifier for the main rimfire problems: wind sensitivity with a low BC round, muzzle velocity spread, and ammo defects. As the horizontal speed decays and the vertical drop speeds up, all that "small" dispersion suddenly becomes much more noticeable when our bullets start acting more like mortar rounds. Here's the angle of impact of 22lr at 1000 yards for reference (taken from Womfat's video):

A custom barrel compared to a factory barrel can reduce several contributors to dispersion. A tighter chamber, better lands engagement, more consistent bore diameter, etc. all help with raw mechanical precision by reducing the severity of principal axis tilt. A factory barrel CAN shoot just as crazy groups as a custom barrel, but I'm willing to bet what your friend is noticing is that the nice groups happen a lot more often with his custom barrel because it has more inherent mechanical precision. A factory barrel is going to have more slop compared to a custom barrel, because better machining tolerance is expensive.

 

[todd]

Sorry no pics, didn't think about pics

Around here, always live by the rule: "Pictures or it didn't happen."

 

[Cody S]

Around here, always live by the rule: "Pictures or it didn't happen."

yup. I just keep it to myself lately because I've been too lazy to drive back out to the targets and take pictures.

 

[vaguru]

Around here, always live by the rule: "Pictures or it didn't happen."

Pictures or it didn't happen. Hogwash. If one can't state what transpired honestly and not have people believe it without a pic, shame on them! I have seen way too many pics from 25 yds claiming 50 yds or even 100 yds.

If you like I can maybe get the 4 witnesses that observed this event to get a signed notary statement for you. lol

Therefore, I'm done here, as I agree with Cody S, keep it to myself. Not too lazy to drive back out to take pics, but always forget to take phone with me checking targets. Have the same issue deer hunting, forget I have a camera handy and don't need to dig out the one in the pack. Way too many skeptics lately.

 

[lash]

Way too many skeptics lately.

True, but there’s a reason for that.

Plus, in case you didn’t catch it, that was and often is said tongue in cheek. Lighten up Francis.

If you do or accomplish something, the only person that matters is you.

 

[vaguru]

True, but there’s a reason for that.

Plus, in case you didn’t catch it, that was and often is said tongue in cheek. Lighten up Francis.

If you do or accomplish something, the only person that matters is you.

Sorry for coming off too crass, just hit me wrong this morning. I apologize to those I offended. Carry on.

 

[Emerson0311]

2 weeks ago, there was much calmer weather and I was out at 200- these were the groups I had then with Eley Tenex. The target got a bit crowded since I only had one target with me, but I recorded which shots were part of each group immediately after firing to make sure I didn't get holes mixed up.

View attachment 8472379View attachment 8472380View attachment 8472381View attachment 8472382View attachment 8472383View attachment 8472384

That’s close to what I expect with Eley Match through an IBI barreled T1X. I decide how many shots/group before I send the first one. I do at least 20/group before I draw any conclusions.

 

[Tiger_Shilone]

That’s close to what I expect with Eley Match through an IBI barreled T1X. I decide how many shots/group before I send the first one. I do at least 20/group before I draw any conclusions.

This, this right here is the type of data that gives credence to your posts. Emerson’s pics back up what I see at matches and my own personal experience. I’d still love to know what brand and grade of 22 ammo produced 1/2” groups consistently at 100 yards.

Couple weeks ago had I a side challenge after the main monthly 35-200 yard steel match:

10 shots to Clear a 8 puck KYL at 50 yards (2” down to 1/4” puck sizes), leaves 2 shots at a 1” target at 200 yards ( if you clean the KYL). Had 4 competitors send 6 shots at the 200 yard 1” target with great , calm wind conditions. These competitors are what I would consider very good as they all have verified DOPE and several of them shoot the longer rimfire monthly match to 421 yards.

One came very close, 1/3” out at 9 o clock. No winners on the 1/2 MOA challenge this month, better luck next month.

Pic of the 1” target set at 200 yards with six impacts on it, plat is 12” x 14”:

 

[todd]

Sorry for coming off too crass, just hit me wrong this morning. I apologize to those I offended. Carry on.

LOL No one is offended. We don't do that here.

 

[lash]

LOL No one is offended. We don't do that here.

No, we do the offending here if you’re so inclined to be offended.

I also run longer distance PRS22 matches here, but only out to 310yards. I may offer a side challenge in my December match out to 400. The reason I haven’t is that it tends to limit those who can dial, or even dial and hold, for that distance with most std. vel. Ammo.

This would not be for points, but for fun and bragging rights. I’ll use a 24”x24” plate to increase impact potential.

 

[todd]

I also run longer distance PRS22 matches here, but only out to 310yards. I may offer a side challenge in my December match out to 400. The reason I haven’t is that it tends to limit those who can dial, or even dial and hold, for that distance with most std. vel. Ammo.

This would not be for points, but for fun and bragging rights. I’ll use a 24”x24” plate to increase impact potential.

Sounds like a fun match, Lash.

 

[lash]

Sounds like a fun match, Lash.

I’d like to think so. If you’re ever here in Central Florida, plan to attend.

 

[TorF]

A buddy tested my single shot Anschutz 1907 3p match rifle with scope at 200m with Lapua Long Range.
Out of the box unbedded rifle. 27" barrel with a slight choke.
No wind.

10 shots at 200m:

25 shots at 200m:

 

[Emerson0311]

A buddy tested my single shot Anschutz 1907 3p match rifle with scope at 200m with Lapua Long Range.
Out of the box unbedded rifle. 27" barrel with a slight choke.
No wind.

10 shots at 200m:

View attachment 8524763

25 shots at 200m:
View attachment 8524764

Nice. If I read that correctly, about 2.44” Center to Center? That’s about what I see with match ammo and a proper match barrel. Very good.

 

[beetroot]

Looks to me as 79.9mm and 126.4mm respectively. So a bit over 3” and 5”.

I don’t speak German/Norwegian, whatever that is.

 

[Husker1869]

BC & Environmental factors assuming shooter is steady. A few mph wind change can easily move shot outside typical comp target size at 300 with such an inefficient and slow projectile. Mix in inconsistent ammo V and long range .22lr really black magic.

 

[steve123]

I had to lower the power level of my Thomas HPX pcp air rifle to sub 50 fpe for a new match format coming up this weekend at the Ultimate Field Target/UFT competition which is at PRGC in the Phoenix AZ area. Yesterday I checked precision capability which is still great, and chrono'd Altaros 32.3gr 22 caliber slugs/.18 G1 BC. There were 18 straight shots with 1.9 SD. The first shot was 4 fps faster so it would have been a 6 fps ES for 17 shots and whatever SD that is??

My 99 fpe AGT Vulcan 25 caliber PCP using Altaros 25 cal 60gr slugs at .245 G1 BC is around 3 SD for 12 shots.

This is a difference between 22rf and a good pcp air rifle.

What I've noticed in general is great 22rf ammo going 200 fps faster, even with higher SD seems to do just as well at distance?? But I can sure tell when there's those few really fast or really slow 22rf 40 grainers hitting high or low 300 yards away.

In the UFT match I shoot, that went from 20Y to 100Y, my 22rf has the record of 47/48 so far which I shot last year but last month I got 46/48 with the HPX on a marginally tougher course. The HPX was at 67 fpe then.

Just wanted to throw this SD info out there even though it's OT to show what's up with some pcp airguns these days.

 

[beetroot]

What I've noticed in general is great 22rf ammo going 200 fps faster, even with higher SD seems to do just as well at distance?? But I can sure tell when there's those few really fast or really slow 22rf 40 grainers hitting high or low 300 yards away.

This is what drives me crazy about 22lr, no matter what you do to the rifle you are still limited by the ammo.

Tested a box of Eley Tenex the other day, shot amazing out too 200 meters ES and SD was pretty good but 1 shot go drop very low and was a good 60fps slower than average and another shot was 50fps slower but didn't see on target.

Shot 150 rounds of Eley Club too, that day had a couple of rounds that were fliers, shooting low and velocity was slow.

That's with a 25.5" barrel so can't even blame a short barrel.

EDIT: that particular box of Eley Tenex had an ES of 32fps if excluding the two outliers, then 56fps and/or 75fps.
Average velocity was 1045fps (excluding those two) and they were 1006 and 987fps respectively.

 

[steve123]

This is what drives me crazy about 22lr, no matter what you do to the rifle you are still limited by the ammo.

Tested a box of Eley Tenex the other day, shot amazing out too 200 meters ES and SD was pretty good but 1 shot go drop very low and was a good 60fps slower than average and another shot was 50fps slower but didn't see on target.

Shot 150 rounds of Eley Club too, that day had a couple of rounds that were fliers, shooting low and velocity was slow.

That's with a 25.5" barrel so can't even blame a short barrel.

I had a really good case and batch lot # of Polar Biathlon that rarely threw big flyers, and SD wasn't too bad, and going 1107 fps, but it's gone now. I conserved it for matches and it lasted for 6 years. Back then I'd won some NRL22 matches with it. It averaged .26" at 50Y in J's 6x5.

Then two years ago I bought some Wolf ME. The ME is pretty good at 50Y, by that I mean plenty of sub 1/2" groups, a little over an inch at 100Y, and by 200Y it's falling apart, by 300Y I'll miss my cat shaped and sized steel a third the time and some big flyers happening.

I can hit the cat most of the time with my Vulcan 3 pcp which is a 1.2" gun at 100Y and as a comparison used to with the Polar as well which would do sub 1" at 100Y fairly often.
Though it's noticeably easier to hit that 300Y cat in windier conditions than it is with 22rf using those 25 cal .245 BC slugs.

I have a separate match barrel for swaged 42gr 22 cal slugs for my Thomas HPX and last time I was shooting at that cat in low winds I got bored hitting it so I put the rifle away since I was tired of shooting by then.
I also shot my smallest 5 shot group at 100Y with it as far as rimfire or air rifle goes at .1" tall and .3" wide ctc.

"IF" I had a pcp repeater that'd do sub 1" at 100Y, higher BC like .25 G1, 1050fps, and sub 2 SD, that would be pretty amazing! Might be a few more years before this industry can produce such a thing but it's heading that way.

Mike N of Thomas Air is a BR champion and he's shot 25 shot groups consisting of one ragged hole of .7" at 100Y with his swaged 38gr 22 cal slugs but his guns are single shot "all out" BR rigs.

BB guns have come a long way.

 

[beetroot]

I had a really good case and batch lot # of Polar Biathlon that rarely threw big flyers, and SD wasn't too bad, and going 1107 fps, but it's gone now. I conserved it for matches and it lasted for 6 years. Back then I'd won some NRL22 matches with it. It averaged .26" at 50Y in J's 6x5.

Then two years ago I bought some Wolf ME. The ME is pretty good at 50Y, by that I mean plenty of sub 1/2" groups, a little over an inch at 100Y, and by 200Y it's falling apart, by 300Y I'll miss my cat shaped and sized steel a third the time and some big flyers happening.

I can hit the cat most of the time with my Vulcan 3 pcp which is a 1.2" gun at 100Y and as a comparison used to with the Polar as well which would do sub 1" at 100Y fairly often.
Though it's noticeably easier to hit that 300Y cat in windier conditions than it is with 22rf using those 25 cal .245 BC slugs.

I have a separate match barrel for swaged 42gr 22 cal slugs for my Thomas HPX and last time I was shooting at that cat in low winds I got bored hitting it so I put the rifle away since I was tired of shooting by then.
I also shot my smallest 5 shot group at 100Y with it as far as rimfire or air rifle goes at .1" tall and .3" wide ctc.

"IF" I had a pcp repeater that'd do sub 1" at 100Y, higher BC like .25 G1, 1050fps, and sub 2 SD, that would be pretty amazing! Might be a few more years before this industry can produce such a thing but it's heading that way.

Mike N of Thomas Air is a BR champion and he's shot 25 shot groups consisting of one ragged hole of .7" at 100Y with his swaged 38gr 22 cal slugs but his guns are single shot "all out" BR rigs.

BB guns have come a long way.

I don't know if I'd be allowed to shoot a PCP in my 22lr events but if I could get a repeater that was competitive with a 22lr but with 100 repeatability I'd certainly be tempted to buy one.

 

[lash]

I don't know if I'd be allowed to shoot a PCP in my 22lr events but if I could get a repeater that was competitive with a 22lr but with 100 repeatability I'd certainly be tempted to buy one.

I do know that if someone asked if they could shoot a PCP in my PRS22 events, I would totally let them. I do know that it used to be in the NRL22 rules that they were allowed. I’d have to check PRS22 rules again to see.

As to the issues with .22 ammo consistency and velocities, that’s always an issue. Especially past 200 yards.

 

[steve123]

Beetroot. Just a heads up that it'd be really hard to be competitive using pellets because we're talking low G1 BC's of .05 to .07. Although people use pellets past 100Y they generally start to lose it not far from that point and these are hugely affected by wind. Slugs on the other hand can be the opposite like I described.

I don't mean to say that pcp's don't have plenty of problems because they do. These things can go out of tune all of a sudden, etc.
There is a "sweet spot" of the hammer spring tension setting, the hammer weight, and the regulator pressure setting, that needs to be optimized together to find the balance point. On top of that the projectiles one uses, slug or pellet, seems to work best within a small-ish range of velocity.

I'd mentioned earlier that my SD was really good in my HPX but after further testing my gun wasn't as precise as it was at last months match. Get this - at only 4 fpe or 26 fps less my gun/slugs combo wasn't shooting great. I ran out of time to get this fully figured out before the UFT match yesterday. I expected to do well at the longer targets but did worse on these than last month. However I did well at the close range targets which I also didn't expect to do because threading a 22 caliber projectile, while not clipping the edge of the 3/8th faceplate hole, is really hard to do when sitting on a 3 gallon bucket with gun rested on an unattached bipod/shooting sticks.

We at this UFT need 22rf shooters too, "yes you can shoot these here with subsonic ammo", and more airgun shooters of course, to try this match and hopefully enjoy it enough to come back. This is struggling newer club and sport. Please support us by trying something different by joining us for a afternoon if you are within driving distance of the Phoenix area! These matches are on the 4th Saturday of the month but check on practiscore, or better yet that FT forum, to make sure it's happening that month. The December match might get cancelled because it's so close to Christmas.

Here's the match report and if you go back through the pages of UFT match reports in the FT forum you can see photos of the steel targets and guns.

Match report - https://www.airgunnation.com/threads/ultimate-field-target-prgc-november-2024-match-results.1323042/

 

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

There is a non-linear increase in dispersion as distance increases, and this is very obvious in .22LR performance. In other words, rather than a linear increase in group size where group size doubles with distance, especially with .22 rimfire group sizes grow more and more as distance increases.

There are several causes. One is obvious and that is that as .22LR bullets slow down with distance, vertical dispersion increases more and more. To put it another way, it takes the .22LR bullet more than twice as long to get from 100 to 200 than it takes to go from 0 to 100. There's simply more time for bullets to be affected by the inexorable forces of gravity. MV variation serves to make group sizes worse than if rounds had very similar MVs.

The other primary cause is less obvious but no less important. Soft lead projectiles such as .22LR bullets (and airgun pellets) are very difficult to produce with a near perfect center of gravity. Cg imperfection contributes to group dispersion. Some lots -- indeed some rounds within lots -- have more or less perfect centers of gravity than others. The result is that some lots will have greater rates of dispersion due to Cg imperfection than others.

(Individual bores/chambers contribute to the Cg of the bullets that become obturated as they pass through them. This is one reason why some rifles/barrels shoot better at longer distance than others.)

Landy (HuskerP7M8) did a comparison of Lapua testing facility ten shot group results at both 50 and 100 meters and found that on average the dispersion rate between 50 and 100 meters was a factor of about 2.8 times. Some lots are better or worse than others. Same for some rifles/barrels.

Well there is that explanation, but it sure seems like there is a gremlin at 200 yards starting to flick bullets in random directions.

 

[oneshot.onehit]

The interesting thing about 22LR and shooting distance is that it brings out all the theories on what happens and or why, even predictions on elevation that is absolute to the writers mindset.

Maybe some over think the process, but it is very achievable without getting to complicated.

If all goes well here two groups shot at 500 with a mild 6 mph wind from 10:00 one is a three shot group and the other a 5 shot group - the dollar bill represents the size of the group.

Then if all goes well a picture of a 700 yard target with two 3 shot groups that overlap this was shot with a 2 to 10 mph wind at 10:30 there is a impact missing that missed the target board just right of group. For reference that was a 12’ wind hold at 700. Note the 700 target, the dollar bill is vertical on target face versus being horizontal as on the two 500 yard target pics.

Midas plus ammo
Rifle was built by D.I. Precision
Thanks David for a tack driver

Cheers
Jeff Heeg

 

[steve123]

That guy Mike N of Thomas Air just posted these two 25 shots groups at 100Y yesterday, with what I'm assuming is his "latest" iteration BR slug airgun. I mention that because he keeps experimenting and implementing improvements which can happen within a few months time. I doubt his SD is up to 5?? I'm assuming this as well based off what I've seen posted before and with my gun.

Pretty crazy huh?!
I wonder what it does at ELR distances?

 

[max-x]

Maybe late to the party with a super fast browse, but SD plays a pretty huge role in dispersion on the 22lr side both from pure ballistic drop and thereafter dynamics.

Run a chrono in your 'elr' testing and the story clarifies quick