22lr twist rate advantages

[ZG47A]

I recall that a Scandinavian suppressor manufacturer actually made suppressors that screwed into the barrel i.e., the muzzle thread was in a recessed muzzle. There was a demo .22lr rifle fitted with that suppressor model here in NZ but the product was never launched on our market. I suspect that it was developed to avoid the abovementioned accuracy issue BUT maybe our bigger retailers were worried about ‘future shock’.

I wanted one or two of those suppressors as soon as I handled the demo rifle and suppressor but that is the way it goes sometimes.

 

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Groups before cutting muzzle threads off, but much more stable and relaxed shooting that day.
View attachment 7663703

So these are 50yards? Do you find that it’s the first round that is not part of the same hole?

that is an MDT ACC chassis? Do you find the mag well to be really tight With voodoo mags? The ACC locks the mags up and feeds better than my AICS chassis, but the mags are very tight. I just put my 40 X conversion in and shot it for the first time this weekend. I was searching around to see if other people had the same issue but I was coming up blank.

 

[JBoomhauer]

So these are 50yards? Do you find that it’s the first round that is not part of the same hole?

that is an MDT ACC chassis? Do you find the mag well to be really tight With voodoo mags? The ACC locks the mags up and feeds better than my AICS chassis, but the mags are very tight. I just put my 40 X conversion in and shot it for the first time this weekend. I was searching around to see if other people had the same issue but I was coming up blank.

Yes 50 yards. I only had about 15 minutes to shoot so I was rushing. Ran out and set the target up, ran back. So I had some movement from the running and mosquitoes biting.

What’s so promising to me is that the bullets impacted pretty much exactly where the crosshairs were when I pulled the trigger. Not the best groups, but no flyers if that makes sense. It will group much better if I was calm.

This ACC is shared between the .22 and my .223 trainer so it has had a ton of mag changes with steel mags. No issues at all with being tight. I would not say it’s drop free, but not far from it.

 

[JBoomhauer]

I also shoot fast, once things are lined up close enough I’m shooting. I do not have the patience for shooting paper. This entire 40 shot target was shot in maybe 5 minutes. Including reloading the mag.

 

[Rimdenter]

I also shoot fast, once things are lined up close enough I’m shooting. I do not have the patience for shooting paper. This entire 40 shot target was shot in maybe 5 minutes. Including reloading the mag.

Wow! Your a Animal ! Good ta know ! I thought I was the only one that lacked patience. Now if theres a little hang time , long range I'm down wit it !

 

[todde]

There is a way to thread the barrel and have it not open up the bore at the crown. A person can counter bore the thread section and place the crown at, or just behind preferably, the shoulder area of the thread section so threading nor the torque applied onto the threads affects the bore dimensions.

The problem then becomes executing a good crown inside of a small hole at depth. While it is not the most glamorous picture, here is an example of it pictured. This is a #7 contour shilen ratchet we fit to a RimX. I do not remember the exact dimensions but if I recall correctly the counter bore is 0.255" diameter x 0.625" deep inside of the 1/2"-28 OD threads. There is an 11° crown internally at the counter bore as well as an 11° chamfer from the counter bore to the threads. This rifle shoots very well and no issue has been seen by doing the counter bore this way. This method is partially inspired by how RFBR sporter barrels achieve essentially a built in tuner.

Todd

 

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

So, if you have a threaded 22 inch barrel, are you better off shortening and recrowning it, or leaving it?

 

[JBoomhauer]

So, if you have a threaded 22 inch barrel, are you better off shortening and recrowning it, or leaving it?

How’s it shoot?

Can you measure any bell mouthed condition near the muzzle?

 

[Krob95]

So, if you have a threaded 22 inch barrel, are you better off shortening and recrowning it, or leaving it?

I’m gonna send mine in and have em chop the threads and recrown it. I rarely shoot suppressed and will probably upgrade barrels on my 10/22 to shoot it suppressed.

 

[finncz]

I recall that a Scandinavian suppressor manufacturer actually made suppressors that screwed into the barrel i.e., the muzzle thread was in a recessed muzzle.

Ase Utra aka AU from Finland ?
Exellent products.

 

[StrayDog]

I’m gonna send mine in and have em chop the threads and recrown it. I rarely shoot suppressed and will probably upgrade barrels on my 10/22 to shoot it suppressed.

This is exactly why I ordered my 360 without threading. I never use them, and after seeing @JBoomhauer do his thing, the arms race is on!

 

[Krob95]

This is exactly why I ordered my 360 without threading. I never use them, and after seeing @JBoomhauer do his thing, the arms race is on!

Should serve me well I think until/if the 9 twist barrels happen

 

[KnowNothing256]

There is a way to thread the barrel and have it not open up the bore at the crown. A person can counter bore the thread section and place the crown at, or just behind preferably, the shoulder area of the thread section so threading nor the torque applied onto the threads affects the bore dimensions.

The problem then becomes executing a good crown inside of a small hole at depth. While it is not the most glamorous picture, here is an example of it pictured. This is a #7 contour shilen ratchet we fit to a RimX. I do not remember the exact dimensions but if I recall correctly the counter bore is 0.255" diameter x 0.625" deep inside of the 1/2"-28 OD threads. There is an 11° crown internally at the counter bore as well as an 11° chamfer from the counter bore to the threads. This rifle shoots very well and no issue has been seen by doing the counter bore this way. This method is partially inspired by how RFBR sporter barrels achieve essentially a built in tuner.

ToddView attachment 7664025

@RAVAGE88 MB, what's your take on this strategy? Seems like it could plausibly be the best of both worlds, or maybe there'd be way too much turbulence in the space between the muzzle and the first baffle as the bullet traveled through?

 

[JBoomhauer]

This is exactly why I ordered my 360 without threading. I never use them, and after seeing @JBoomhauer do his thing, the arms race is on!

 

[Rimdenter]

Should serve me well I think until/if the 9 twist barrels happen

Roll your own ?

 

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

So is this threaded barrel thing just a 1x9 thing? Never really heard about this before now. Are 22s more susceptible to the issue because the bullet is going slower and is that area longer?

Like my question said, 22 inch barrel that's threaded. Is it better to get shorter from the proposed optimum 22 inch barrel by removing the threads than being at the full 22 inches.

Since we are still in the experimental stages, out side of MBs chamber, bore, length, muzzle 'Voodoo', for my threaded barrels, I might look at a barrel tuner until everything else shakes out.

Of course, this is the first time I got a 22LR barrel threaded- what was the downside, all the cool kids are doing it....

 

[todde]

Something to add to post. The barrel was slugged and crown was placed where it was best. If I remember correct the barrel finished 25.3 at crown. The friend we fit this barrel, asked for it to be threaded. We knew the effect of threading the most Important part of the barrel and went this route. There is a lot more work involved but if you feel like you need it threaded this is the solution.
Todd

 

[phlegethon]

So is this threaded barrel thing just a 1x9 thing? Never really heard about this before now. Are 22s more susceptible to the issue because the bullet is going slower and is that area longer?

Like my question said, 22 inch barrel that's threaded. Is it better to get shorter from the proposed optimum 22 inch barrel by removing the threads than being at the full 22 inches.

Since we are still in the experimental stages, out side of MBs chamber, bore, length, muzzle 'Voodoo', for my threaded barrels, I might look at a barrel tuner until everything else shakes out.

Of course, this is the first time I got a 22LR barrel threaded- what was the downside, all the cool kids are doing it....

Calfee wrote about this in The Art of Rimfire Accuracy. Said you should never thread rimfire barrels because the bore would open up and you need the muzzle to be the tightest part of the barrel. In theory this is more of an issue with button rifling because of residual stress but probably still matters with cut.

 

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Calfee wrote about this in The Art of Rimfire Accuracy. Said you should never thread rimfire barrels because the bore would open up and you need the muzzle to be the tightest part of the barrel. In theory this is more of an issue with button rifling because of residual stress but probably still matters with cut.

I know the old way was to say that the 22 LR barrels were constricted at the muzzle end, but it seems the more modern way is not to do that. Pretty sure that Lilja said you can cut the barrel to any length.

 

[grauhanen]

I know the old way was to say that the 22 LR barrels were constricted at the muzzle end, but it seems the more modern way is not to do that. Pretty sure that Lilja said you can cut the barrel to any length.

Doing what's required to achieve best potential for accuracy is not a fad that easily changes over time. BR smiths usually don't cut the barrel length at an arbitrary point. They slug it to determine the best place it should be cut.

 

[RAVAGE88]

@RAVAGE88 MB, what's your take on this strategy? Seems like it could plausibly be the best of both worlds, or maybe there'd be way too much turbulence in the space between the muzzle and the first baffle as the bullet traveled through?

I’ve never been a fan of back boring because it’s hit or miss, no guarantees to be successful. I’ve see it work well and I’ve seen it not work well, so I don’t spend energy doing it.

MB

 

[RAVAGE88]

So is this threaded barrel thing just a 1x9 thing? Never really heard about this before now. Are 22s more susceptible to the issue because the bullet is going slower and is that area longer?

Like my question said, 22 inch barrel that's threaded. Is it better to get shorter from the proposed optimum 22 inch barrel by removing the threads than being at the full 22 inches.

Since we are still in the experimental stages, out side of MBs chamber, bore, length, muzzle 'Voodoo', for my threaded barrels, I might look at a barrel tuner until everything else shakes out.

Of course, this is the first time I got a 22LR barrel threaded- what was the downside, all the cool kids are doing it....

No sir, it’s an issue for any twist rate but I’ve noted the faster twist rates amplify smaller issues.

MB

 

[Drew M]

Could have sworn post #221 was different first time I read it ??
About muzzle threads & rimfire ?

Not trying to be an ass, just don't have an IG acc & was curious.

 

[RAVAGE88]

Could have sworn post #221 was different first time I read it ??
About muzzle threads & rimfire ?

Not trying to be an ass, just don't have an IG acc & was curious.

Yep, it was. The first time I replied to KnowNothing256 was after two sips of coffee and then discovered I actually answered FromMyColdDeadHand’s question. I edited post 221 to provide the correct response to KnowNothing then wrote post 222 to respond to FMCDH.

Moral of the story, have more than two sips of coffee and less than three sips of whiskey prior to engaging the internet....

MB

 

[CBeck]

Moral of the story, have more than two sips of coffee and less than three sips of whiskey prior to engaging the internet....

MB

Words of wisdom

 

[Drew M]

Yep, it was. The first time I replied to KnowNothing256 was after two sips of coffee and then discovered I actually answered FromMyColdDeadHand’s question. I edited post 221 to provide the correct response to KnowNothing then wrote post 222 to respond to FMCDH.

Moral of the story, have more than two sips of coffee and less than three sips of whiskey prior to engaging the internet....

MB

Good to know I haven't gone completely mental yet
Had a long day today & think its time for a whiskey myself.

 

[9rcrazy]

MB,
I have a 360 on order with a 20 inch MTU. Please correct me if I misunderstood. In your testing, optimum barrel length in a 1/9 twist is either 18 or 22 inches, non-threaded. Would the same hold true for a 1/16 twist?
Thank you for your insight and willingness to share it!!
Mike

 

[jNCgUN]

Changed my 360 order from thread to crown after I read MB's post on IG.
I put barrel tuner on a couple of long barrels for rimx and muzzle thread is required.

 

[Gleedus]

Changed my 360 order from thread to crown after I read MB's post on IG.
I put barrel tuner on a couple of long barrels for rimx and muzzle thread is required.

Ever try running a clamp on tuner?

 

[Cowpokey]

Changed my 360 order from thread to crown after I read MB's post on IG.
I put barrel tuner on a couple of long barrels for rimx and muzzle thread is required.

Do you have a link to that post? I tried going through their IG page, but I don't know how to find it.

 

[Jt2424]

Instagram

www.instagram.com

 

[Drew M]

Copied from the link above.
If someone could do the same with the video & pics please.

vudoo_labs
Muzzle Threads….Are you really going to use them? I shot with a Vudoo customer a few days ago that was excited about his rifle. He drove more than three hours to meet at 8am with his new @vudoogunworks Three60 and @shilenrifles 10 twist Ratchet barrel. We first validated our zeroes at 50 yards prior to moving over to a parallel range with targets out to 350 and at first, I didn’t pay much attention to Dan’s rifle. As we start shooting at a @bulletpro150 target, I look at his groups through my scope and think, “his rifle needs a little attention.” As is usually the case, @studiomtwo has the situation well in hand and offering up different lots of ammo to try and although there were improvements, I just didn’t see his rifle doing what it should do. I then paid more attention to his rifle and what’s the first thing I see? Muzzle. Threads. Now, I haven’t started an all-out war on muzzle threads; that’s not what this is about. I like suppressors. I like shooting with suppressors. But on a rifle I expect more out of, I don’t put muzzle threads on my barrels. So, I had a conversation with Dan, good Dude and talented machinist, about how little he’d actually use a suppressor on this rifle and we decided, the threads have to go. I showed him the thread relief groove and discussed the significant impact it has on the bore and what happens to the short distance between the groove and crown. We then discussed proper setup of his barreled action in his lathe and how to machine his crown while looking at the crown on my rifle as an example. Now, take a look at the video. The bore and groove dimensions of the Shilen Ratchet are .217” and .222” respectively. Prior to removing the threads, Dan was able to insert a .218” gauge pin in the bore and watch where it stops….that’s right, it stops at the thread relief groove. So, what do you think the bullet “feels” just prior to departing on the journey you just sent it on? After lopping off the threads and machining a new 11 degree recessed target crown, this same pin would not fit in his bore and the results on the target are quite different than what I initially saw through my scope.

 

[jbell]

I have tested a few barrels with a recessed crown (back bored & threaded) and each time the consistency was much better without the recessed crown.

I have read all of Bill Calfee’s work I can get my hands on and after building many and testing many more precision rimfire rifles I have come to the conclusion that a suppressor has no place on a precision rimfire. First and foremost is the thread size required leaves a pretty thin barrel at the most critical point which anyone who has ever cut metal knows that reducing the OD of a tube, bearing, etc there comes a point when the wall thickness is thin enough it relaxes the material enough for the ID to open up (it is too damn small, also why all of my centerfire muzzles are M18X1.0 and yes I am a fan of a fine thread pitch). But secondly a suppressor is especially a constantly changing muzzle weight, there is a reason why tuners can help and hurt accuracy depending on the setting.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

Changed my 360 order from thread to crown after I read MB's post on IG.
I put barrel tuner on a couple of long barrels for rimx and muzzle thread is required.

Harrell tuners clamp on. Or clamp it onto a thread protector ring if you want to screw it onto a threaded muzzle.

Edit: Hmmm. I wonder if an over-tight clamp tightens the bore some infinitesimal but measurable amount...

 

[KnowNothing256]

Ok, so muzzle threads impair accuracy. What recourse is there for those of us that are committed to using a suppressor with a standard 1/2x28 thread pattern? Are there any ways to mitigate the detrimental effects?

 

[jbell]

Ok, so muzzle threads impair accuracy. What recourse is there for those of us that are committed to using a suppressor with a standard 1/2x28 thread pattern? Are there any ways to mitigate the detrimental effects?

I personally do not think it is a hard fast rule that a threaded muzzle is going to reduce accuracy, just that it could. I think the barrel has everything to do with it, how it is rifled and potentially how it was stress relieved during the process.

 

[Cowpokey]

Changed my 360 order from thread to crown after I read MB's post on IG.
I put barrel tuner on a couple of long barrels for rimx and muzzle thread is required.

I changed my 360 order to 11º target crown today. Wasn't sure if it was too late since it was scheduled for delivery two weeks ago, but they are behind schedule 2-3 weeks for a parts shortage they had in May, so my build hadn't started yet. Glad I saw this...I have close to a zero % chance of ever running a can anyway.

 

[9rcrazy]

I did too! I never got an answer from Ravage88 (post #227) but I went ahead and changed mine to an 18 inch non threaded MTU. Cowpokey, did you have to request the 11 degree target crown or is that standard?

Mike

 

[KnowNothing256]

I did too! I never got an answer from Ravage88 (post #227) but I went ahead and changed mine to an 18 inch non threaded MTU. Cowpokey, did you have to request the 11 degree target crown or is that standard?

Mike

An 18” 9tw or 16tw?

 

[9rcrazy]

1/16 twist. I requested the 1/9 twist and this is what I was told...

"Though we are testing 1/9 twist we are not offering it for sale at this time. Once we hit the point that we decide we're ready, it will be 8 months or longer get barrel blanks in."

Mike

 

[Cowpokey]

I did too! I never got an answer from Ravage88 (post #227) but I went ahead and changed mine to an 18 inch non threaded MTU. Cowpokey, did you have to request the 11 degree target crown or is that standard?

Mike

I didn't request the 11º, JoAnn replied to my email when I asked if it was too late to change to the non-threaded barrel, and asked me if the 11º was what I wanted. I replied back "11º is perfect, thanks!" Hopefully my build will be here soon, but I've already waited 18 weeks, so we'll see. As anxious as I've been since I put in the order, I'm willing to wait.

 

[RAVAGE88]

MB,
I have a 360 on order with a 20 inch MTU. Please correct me if I misunderstood. In your testing, optimum barrel length in a 1/9 twist is either 18 or 22 inches, non-threaded. Would the same hold true for a 1/16 twist?
Thank you for your insight and willingness to share it!!
Mike

Hey Dude, sorry, traveling again and haven't been online much. The nine twist should be 22" or longer, non-threaded. You have much more leeway with the 16 twist, so don't worry about the length.

MB

 

[flatland1]

I got the idea of counterboring my threaded custom 22RF barrels from reading about Anschutz North America doing it on their custom rifles. Figured if it was good enough for them, maybe I should try it. Mentioned that to jbell here, and he brought up the question about inner bore turbulence due to the over-bore sized portion at the muzzle. Couldn't stop wondering about it afterwards, and finally took one of my 40X repeaters out, pulled the bbl, parted off the counterbored portion....and then cut fresh 1/2-28 threads. Talk about one step forward, two steps back...

More recently, I bought another Pro-X tuner for my original V-22 repeater, and parted off the muzzle threads, then cut a fresh 11* crown. Turning a 1.180" straight section of the sendero bbl's muzzle down to .852"(as I'd bored the tuner's ID to that dimension) required removing only .012". I've got the tuner adjusted to work with a good lot of SK Rifle Match, and the improvement in group size from 50-200yds is very impressive. Only thing I haven't tried yet is to see how it shoots without the tuner, to establish the barrel's baseline accuracy. But since I don't have any intention of shooting it again without the tuner, and testing to establish the tune for this lot of ammo proved beyond any doubt how much improvement in group size the correct setting made...and with the current ammo shortage in effect for who knows how long...why bother?

 

[Rimdenter]

I truly believe alot, no most of the time folks dont see the whole process. Meaning that exact moment the projectile starts forward in barrel. There are multiple factors involved , rifling acts 2 fold there can be a increase or decrease in initial pressure of chamber. The projectile moves forward in a 16t easier then it does a 9t , therefore a high bell pressure curve would be seen in a 9 twist barrel. The rifling also creates rotational gas turbulance , factors in barrel lenght greatly apply wheres my peak to deceleration point , vs rotational veloicty vs gas turbulance. Now were to the exit even on a PERFECT PERFECT ! crown the direction of gas dispersion imparts deflection to the projectile. The gas is moving faster then the bullet, and will momentarily encompass it to a point. Any deformity to the muzzle crown or bullet base imparts a flow stability from internal to external ballistics. This is the very reason why some suppressors are more accurate then others they imply equal radial dispersion of gas where some use staggered.
Theres a whole lot going on to get the right, twist vs lenght vs cartridge to shoot if you see something that's working start there, till you can shoot to the capabilities of what that proven setup will do.

 

[littlepod]

I got the idea of counterboring my threaded custom 22RF barrels from reading about Anschutz North America doing it on their custom rifles. Figured if it was good enough for them, maybe I should try it. Mentioned that to jbell here, and he brought up the question about inner bore turbulence due to the over-bore sized portion at the muzzle. Couldn't stop wondering about it afterwards, and finally took one of my 40X repeaters out, pulled the bbl, parted off the counterbored portion....and then cut fresh 1/2-28 threads. Talk about one step forward, two steps back...

More recently, I bought another Pro-X tuner for my original V-22 repeater, and parted off the muzzle threads, then cut a fresh 11* crown. Turning a 1.180" straight section of the sendero bbl's muzzle down to .852"(as I'd bored the tuner's ID to that dimension) required removing only .012". I've got the tuner adjusted to work with a good lot of SK Rifle Match, and the improvement in group size from 50-200yds is very impressive. Only thing I haven't tried yet is to see how it shoots without the tuner, to establish the barrel's baseline accuracy. But since I don't have any intention of shooting it again without the tuner, and testing to establish the tune for this lot of ammo proved beyond any doubt how much improvement in group size the correct setting made...and with the current ammo shortage in effect for who knows how long...why bother?

Do you feel the Pro-X tuners are robust enough to handle use in a PRS competition? Are they set on secure where a bump here and there will be okay? With Lapua ammo shortage being what it is these days, I might end up just having to tune my rifle to a random lot of CX instead.

 

[Tiger_Shilone]

....This is the very reason why some suppressors are more accurate then others they imply equal radial dispersion of gas where some use staggered......

I played with baffle stack orientation on a silencerco spectre II after a vudoo tuning session (indoors, 50 yards, one piece bench rest setup, known lot of good center-x) a few years ago. I tried alternating, spiral and half&half baffle orientations. Two 10 round groups for each. I saw no appreciable difference in group size or POI from the standard all in line baffle orientation. Didn’t feel like wasting further ammo or time as breaking down and reassembling the can took a fair bit of time. What did change group sizes and POI was different weight , IE: different can, tuner, bare muzzle and thread protector all had noticeable changes. I’m in the camp of different barrel harmonics rather than gas flow for changes of group size and POI from my testing.

 

[jbell]

I truly believe alot, no most of the time folks dont see the whole process. Meaning that exact moment the projectile starts forward in barrel. There are multiple factors involved , rifling acts 2 fold there can be a increase or decrease in initial pressure of chamber. The projectile moves forward in a 16t easier then it does a 9t , therefore a high bell pressure curve would be seen in a 9 twist barrel. The rifling also creates rotational gas turbulance , factors in barrel lenght greatly apply wheres my peak to deceleration point , vs rotational veloicty vs gas turbulance. Now were to the exit even on a PERFECT PERFECT ! crown the direction of gas dispersion imparts deflection to the projectile. The gas is moving faster then the bullet, and will momentarily encompass it to a point. Any deformity to the muzzle crown or bullet base imparts a flow stability from internal to external ballistics. This is the very reason why some suppressors are more accurate then others they imply equal radial dispersion of gas where some use staggered.
Theres a whole lot going on to get the right, twist vs lenght vs cartridge to shoot if you see something that's working start there, till you can shoot to the capabilities of what that proven setup will do.

Yes, I am right there with you. I think the moment external ballistics begins the way the precursor gasses are managed has so much to do with accuracy. I have a few theories about internal ballistics and rimfire barrels. But like everything a theory is only speculation until you test it enough to see repeatable results, which brings us to this thread and threads like this where we can have a conversation about such matters and benefit from each others experiences.

 

[Matt_3479]

Hey Dude, sorry, traveling again and haven't been online much. The nine twist should be 22" or longer, non-threaded. You have much more leeway with the 16 twist, so don't worry about the length.

MB

My apologies, but what’s the reason the 9 twist should be longer? And what’s the reason you are recommending non threaded on a 9 twist by not 16 twist

 

[flatland1]

Do you feel the Pro-X tuners are robust enough to handle use in a PRS competition? Are they set on secure where a bump here and there will be okay? With Lapua ammo shortage being what it is these days, I might end up just having to tune my rifle to a random lot of CX instead.

I just shot my first PRS-style match with the V-22 I've got the Pro-X tuner on last weekend, and didn't have any issues. However, this tuner (and others similar to it) were designed to be used on 22RF BR rifles where there's very little chance that they're going to get bumped or banged around. The reason I bought this Pro-X was because I'd already put one on my V-22S and had good results with it.

I used to run suppressed at these same matches, and never once got in such a hurry as to bump or bang the can on a barricade or port - but then, I'm not a very good positional shooter, seldom in a position to win one of these matches, so don't push it to the point where I'm likely to ding my rifles up. Still, I like to compete with good friends, so I guess I'd have to say that I'm there to have a good time first - and secondly, to see how the rifles I've built for myself perform & to use them as they were intended to be used. IOW, there are other tuners on the market now that are probably better suited for rough & tumble use - I just don't have the need or desire to experiment with them.

 

[littlepod]

I just shot my first PRS-style match with the V-22 I've got the Pro-X tuner on last weekend, and didn't have any issues. However, this tuner (and others similar to it) were designed to be used on 22RF BR rifles where there's very little chance that they're going to get bumped or banged around. The reason I bought this Pro-X was because I'd already put one on my V-22S and had good results with it.

I used to run suppressed at these same matches, and never once got in such a hurry as to bump or bang the can on a barricade or port - but then, I'm not a very good positional shooter, seldom in a position to win one of these matches, so don't push it to the point where I'm likely to ding my rifles up. Still, I like to compete with good friends, so I guess I'd have to say that I'm there to have a good time first - and secondly, to see how the rifles I've built for myself perform & to use them as they were intended to be used. IOW, there are other tuners on the market now that are probably better suited for rough & tumble use - I just don't have the need or desire to experiment with them.

Yeh all the traditional tuners in the rough and tumble use seem to be the threaded on ones and I didn't get my 360 threaded. I guess I'll hope to find a good matching lot of ammo.