24” AR15 in 223 with a lot of recoil for a 223 - WTF?

[NSKYLINE34]

Let me start by saying the recoil isnt because I’m recoil sensitive, it’s more a concern whether something is wrong. Everything works fine/runs fine and is more accurate than me - I just want to make sure nothing is wrong. Just seems to be hard on parts is all.

Built an AR15 with a JP 24” barrel in 223, rifle length gas tube, tried a carbine buffer tube/spring and H1-H3 buffers, now I’m using a rifle length buffer/tube/spring. Buffer changes didn’t really make a big difference at all. Oh, and it has a JP muzzle brake on it too.

It has a LOT more recoil than my ultralight faxon AR15 in 223 which weighs 6lbs. This 24” AR weighs about 13-15lbs.

All factory ammo, no over pressure signs around the primers. Tried H1-H3 buffers and have the gas turned down as possible and have it eject property and Last round hold open. it still kicks way harder than I feel like it should? It recoils so hard the muzzle / bipod will jump. (Yup it’s seated firmly against shoulder). It Feels like a lot for a 223 and compared to my other 16” carbine AR15? I mean it has much recoil as my AR10. Is that just because it’s a 24” barrel and rifle length gas tube?

Built several AR15 pistols and carbines, this is the first longer one with rifle length gas system so wondering if that’s all it is?

I’m thinking about trying a carbine H3 buffer (so it’s shorter than the rifle length buffer, in a rifle length buffer tube, with the rifle length spring to see if it’ll have a little more room for the bolt to slow down?

Is there anything I should check to make sure it’s all ok? A couple of my buddies think it had kind of a lot of recoil for what it is too.

The answer may be, “sounds about right to me, run it” and that’s totally fine, I figured I’d just double check tho

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Is that just because it’s a 24” barrel and rifle length gas tube?

Yes.

 

[st1650]

Maybe it’s over gassed, gas port too big ? Have you tried a AGB to a lower setting ?

 

[NSKYLINE34]

Maybe it’s over gassed, gas port too big ? Have you tried a AGB to a lower setting ?

Yup it’s adjustable - ran it all the way closed so no gas and backed it out in 1/8th turn increments until it would lock open on the last round.

Now that it has a few hundred rounds through it and broken in I should maybe try it again and see if I can back it off a little and maybe that’ll help?

 

[Coffee_and_Pipes]

The first thing that came to mind was the 24” barrel with rifle gas, but what is the setup on your lightweight Faxon vs. this one?

For instance, are you running a lightweight bcg in the other rifle, and you’re noticing more reciprocating mass in this rifle?

It sounds like the rifle runs well, but it isn’t tuned to run as smoothly as the other one.

 

[Old Man with Gun]

Look for wear on parts, if your bolt is bouncing off the edge of the buffer tube or something it could be what you are feeling. A heavy 223 with break should be a kitten.

Have some respected shooters try it and get feedback. How are you shooting the rifle? Is it the say position as you shoot your shorter rifle?

 

[NSKYLINE34]

Look for wear on parts, if your bolt is bouncing off the edge of the buffer tube or something it could be what you are feeling. A heavy 223 with break should be a kitten.

Have some respected shooters try it and get feedback. How are you shooting the rifle? Is it the say position as you shoot your shorter rifle?

The Faxon is their light weight carbon 14.5” pencil barrel, it’s a “light weight BCG”, but nothing exotic or Ti or Skeletonized.

That’s what I was thinking, it’s a big heavy rifle with a brake in 223 - it should be like shooting a BB gun! lol

I shoot the faxon standing and the 24” AR is always prone or from a bench. - too heavy for me to shoulder and shoot well.

Like I said, it has some recoil. I almost want to say as much as my 308 bolt gun with no brake. It’s just odd.

Runs great, but I will definitely check and see about odd wear spots.

So far everyone who has shot it says it is the hardest hitting 223 they’ve ever experienced…like how hard it hits your shoulder.

i will reset the gas block again, maybe since stuff has broken in it’ll be better. But first I’ll tear it down and triple check everything for any odd signs…

 

[NSKYLINE34]

 

[NSKYLINE34]

The first thing that came to mind was the 24” barrel with rifle gas, but what is the setup on your lightweight Faxon vs. this one?

For instance, are you running a lightweight bcg in the other rifle, and you’re noticing more reciprocating mass in this rifle?

It sounds like the rifle runs well, but it isn’t tuned to run as smoothly as the other one.

I would agree with that last sentence - how can I go about dialing it in to run better?

 

[NSKYLINE34]

Like I said, this is my first rifle length gas system so I bet some of what I’m experiencing is that. I’ve never shot one so I ASSUMED it would feel the same - sounds like I am wrong. Lol

I wonder if a stiffer buffer spring would help to slow things down a little easier/smooth?

With the buffer system, is it better to run as light of a buffer and spring and then dial the gas system back as much as possible, or is it better to run a heavier buffer and spring and run more gas to push it all? Which will feel better and smoother?

 

[kl3309]

I shoot the faxon standing and the 24” AR is always prone or from a bench...

Ya think that maybe it's just perceived recoil instead of actual recoil, meaning that in prone or at the bench, your whole body isn't moving with the recoil as it would if you were shooting off-hand and the forces are all going into your shoulder?

 

[NSKYLINE34]

Ya think that maybe it's just perceived recoil instead of actual recoil, meaning that in prone or at the bench, your whole body isn't moving with the recoil as it would if you were shooting off-hand and the forces are all going into your shoulder?

I would think that would mean the opposite? The Faxon that I shoot off hand has like zero recoil (as a typical AR) but the 24” AR shot from prone feels like it has a lot more.

I would def agree with you if the rifles had the opposite recoil (the Faxon recoiled more and the 24” had less)

 

[NSKYLINE34]

I’m on vacation, but I do have the Faxon with me, so Tomorrow I’ll try shooting from prone vs standing just to test the theory.

 

[NSKYLINE34]

I always thought rifle length gas systems would cycle / recoil way smoother than a carbine one? Hence why I’m so confused by this lol

 

[Cascade Hemi]

If you turn off the gas does the harsh recoil go away?

 

[NSKYLINE34]

If you turn off the gas does the harsh recoil go away?

Basically close the gas block port off so it won’t cycle you mean? If I recall it was about the same, but I’ll have to take it out again and try it and see. Good question

 

[kl3309]

I would think that would mean the opposite? The Faxon that I shoot off hand has like zero recoil (as a typical AR) but the 24” AR shot from prone feels like it has a lot more.

I would def agree with you if the rifles had the opposite recoil (the Faxon recoiled more and the 24” had less)

Think of it like this:
Off-hand - your feet are anchored so everything above the next highest joint (ankles) is free to move with recoil.
Bench - your butt is anchored so only that part of your body above the next highest joint (waist) can move with the recoil.
Prone - your whole body is essentially anchored so (in theory) no part of your body moves under recoil.
So you feel more of the recoil forces because those forces are shoving around a smaller amount of you.

As for your steup, with that brake, you should be getting virtually no rearward movement other than a little slap if your buffer bottoms out.

My 24" .223:

It's 1.0" under the hanguard, rifle gas, full-mass BC, captured carbine buffer, under 12 lbs. Has more reticle movement from the bench than prone but just a little shove then back into battery even with no brake.

 

[kl3309]

Basically close the gas block port off so it won’t cycle you mean? If I recall it was about the same, but I’ll have to take it out again and try it and see. Good question

That'll actually feel like heavier recoil since none of the energy is spent by the unlocking and movement of the bolt. It'll feel like a bolt gun.

 

[NSKYLINE34]

Think of it like this:
Off-hand - your feet are anchored so everything above the next highest joint (ankles) is free to move with recoil.
Bench - your butt is anchored so only that part of your body above the next highest joint (waist) can move with the recoil.
Prone - your whole body is essentially anchored so (in theory) no part of your body moves under recoil.
So you feel more of the recoil forces because those forces are shoving around a smaller amount of you.

As for your steup, with that brake, you should be getting virtually no rearward movement other than a little slap if your buffer bottoms out.

My 24" .223:

View attachment 8308222

It's 1.0" under the hanguard, rifle gas, full-mass BC, captured carbine buffer, under 12 lbs. Has more reticle movement from the bench than prone but just a little shove then back into battery even with no brake.

Nice setup. And I see what you mean about the felt recoil - makes total sense.

For me there is enough movement that I have zero chance to spot my own shots. Am going to try and get out and shoot this coming weekend to try a buffer with no weights in it and adjust the gas down accordingly and then I’ll try an H3 and adjust back up and see how that goes and report back. Unless there’s any other ideas that I should try too?

 

[NSKYLINE34]

That'll actually feel like heavier recoil since none of the energy is spent by the unlocking and movement of the bolt. It'll feel like a bolt gun.

What will feel like more recoil, H buffer with the gas block adjusted properly for it, or an H3 with the gas block adjusted properly for it?

Trying to think of it but wondering if someone has first world experience to report? Lol

 

[kl3309]

What will feel like more recoil, H buffer with the gas block adjusted properly for it, or an H3 with the gas block adjusted properly for it?

Trying to think of it but wondering if someone has first world experience to report? Lol

H3 will be more mass moving around and would actually feel like more recoil.
Have you shot your 24" without the brake? Those JPs do a great job on rearward recoil but they also tend to drive your muzzle down (with the four venturi holes on top). Since the rifle is on a bench or the ground, it doesn't have anywhere to get rid of that energy so it'll recover by hopping on the bipod. Maybe that's what keeping you from spotting your shots.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Basically close the gas block port off so it won’t cycle you mean? If I recall it was about the same, but I’ll have to take it out again and try it and see. Good question

Yes. It's a locked breach rifle, it won't have more recoil. If what you're experiencing is due to the excessive dwell or over gassing, it will go away when you shut off the gas.

 

[NSKYLINE34]

H3 will be more mass moving around and would actually feel like more recoil.
Have you shot your 24" without the brake? Those JPs do a great job on rearward recoil but they also tend to drive your muzzle down (with the four venturi holes on top). Since the rifle is on a bench or the ground, it doesn't have anywhere to get rid of that energy so it'll recover by hopping on the bipod. Maybe that's what keeping you from spotting your shots.

Good to know about the H3 buffer.

My JP brake doesn’t have any holes on top? Just the sides only? Im pretty sure that’s actually where the logo is, is on the top?

 

[NSKYLINE34]

Yes. It's a locked breach rifle, it won't have more recoil. If what you're experiencing is due to the excessive dwell or over gassing, it will go away when you shut off the gas.

Super stupid question:

How would excessive dwell change how things feel and how do I change the dwell time? Wouldn’t that be by changing buffer weights?

I’ll definitely give it a try when I take it out next

 

[msgriff]

I would stick with the rifle length action, you'll probably have the best luck sorting out your problems. I would also verify the specs of those components just to eliminate any anomaly. Measure the buffer length and weigh it, measure the spring length and count the number of coils. Make sure the gas key isn't striking the inside of the lower receiver extension hub (opposite the buffer retaining pin).

 

[srt-4_uk]

Heavy recoil is God punishing you for running a fake atlas bipod.

Super stupid question:

How would excessive dwell change how things feel and how do I change the dwell time? Wouldn’t that be by changing buffer weights?

I’ll definitely give it a try when I take it out next

Only way to change dwell time is to cut the barrel shorter.

 

[NSKYLINE34]

Heavy recoil is God punishing you for running a fake atlas bipod.


Only way to change dwell time is to cut the barrel shorter.

lmfao - that literally restored my faith in people on the internet getting along. Hahaha

I know I know - not proud of it.

 

[NSKYLINE34]

Super stupid question:

How would excessive dwell change how things feel and how do I change the dwell time? Wouldn’t that be by changing buffer weights?

I’ll definitely give it a try when I take it out next

How could it be over gassed if I keep slowly adjusting the gas block so that it has just enough to lock the bolt open on the last round? Did I maybe mess something up? Or maybe I adjusted it totally incorrectly?

 

[Old Man with Gun]

You might want to swap lowers just to see if you notice a difference.
Personally I think it may have more to do with positions than you think. Try your Faxon in the same prone bipod configuration and see how it changes from standing to prone. I'd say shoot the big gun standing, but 24* is not practical for that.

 

[kl3309]

Good to know about the H3 buffer.

My JP brake doesn’t have any holes on top? Just the sides only? Im pretty sure that’s actually where the logo is, is on the top?

OK, haven't looked at JP recently. Back in the day, their brakes had up-venting ports to counteract muzzle rise. Like I said, they were too effective and drove the muzzle down. Guess JP decided that they weren't worth the effort.

What exactly do you mean by a lot of recoil anyway? Is it a heavy push back into the shoulder or is it muzzle rise? All that you're doing with buffer weights, etc., may affect the rearward movement/velocity but not muzzle rise. If your issue is muzzle rise, I'd take that brake off as it may still be introducing some levering or whatever, causing the muzzle to jump around.

 

[NSKYLINE34]

OK, haven't looked at JP recently. Back in the day, their brakes had up-venting ports to counteract muzzle rise. Like I said, they were too effective and drove the muzzle down. Guess JP decided that they weren't worth the effort.

What exactly do you mean by a lot of recoil anyway? Is it a heavy push back into the shoulder or is it muzzle rise? All that you're doing with buffer weights, etc., may affect the rearward movement/velocity but not muzzle rise. If your issue is muzzle rise, I'd take that brake off as it may still be introducing some levering or whatever, causing the muzzle to jump around.

Mainly it just feels like a lot of recoil backward - it’s just more than a 223 carbine. It’s entirely possible that what I’m experiencing is 100% Normal and just how a 24” long rifle would behave, I’ve just never shot one (an AR15 with a 24” barrel and rifle gas system) so I could be making something out of nothing.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Super stupid question:

How would excessive dwell change how things feel and how do I change the dwell time? Wouldn’t that be by changing buffer weights?

I’ll definitely give it a try when I take it out next

You can't change the dwell without shortening the barrel. It is the distance between the gas port and muzzle. You normally see dwell discussed as time; it is the time the bullet is in the barrel after the gas port. Dwell is also the time the gas system is pressurized. Too much dwell and the action will begin to unlock with excessive pressure. You have 4 more inches of dwell than a 20" M16.

As @msgriff said, also make sure you don't have metal on metal contact.

 

[kl3309]

Mainly it just feels like a lot of recoil backward - it’s just more than a 223 carbine. It’s entirely possible that what I’m experiencing is 100% Normal and just how a 24” long rifle would behave, I’ve just never shot one (an AR15 with a 24” barrel and rifle gas system) so I could be making something out of nothing.

I don't think that further dicking around with buffer weights is going to get you to where I think you want to be. I would take the brake off so you're not distracted by the blast, and add some weights to the handguard to settle it down.

 

[NSKYLINE34]

I don't think that further dicking around with buffer weights is going to get you to where I think you want to be. I would take the brake off so you're not distracted by the blast, and add some weights to the handguard to settle it down.

Any recommendations as for weights? And how much to start off with?

I’m assuming put them as far forward as possible on the handguard?

 

[kl3309]

Any recommendations as for weights? And how much to start off with?

I’m assuming put them as far forward as possible on the handguard?

How much weight to add will be determined by where you want the rifle to balance. Mine balances about 2" ahead of the magwell but then, I don't have a PRS to load up the ass-end like you've got. I'd put the weight closer in and low so it doesn't feel all wobbly (from being top-heavy) when you have it on a narrow barricade or whatever. Maybe look for a weighted ARCA rail if that's on you list.

Hey, looking at your pic again, how tall are you? Do you have your PRS extended out because you need the LOP or because you didn't do a cantilevered scope mount?

 

[hlee]

I’m thinking about trying a carbine H3 buffer (so it’s shorter than the rifle length buffer, in a rifle length buffer tube, with the rifle length spring to see if it’ll have a little more room for the bolt to slow down?

All this is going to do is to allow the bolt carrier to fuck up the receiver “tower” as it reciprocates too far using the wrong buffer.

 

[NSKYLINE34]

How much weight to add will be determined by where you want the rifle to balance. Mine balances about 2" ahead of the magwell but then, I don't have a PRS to load up the ass-end like you've got. I'd put the weight closer in and low so it doesn't feel all wobbly (from being top-heavy) when you have it on a narrow barricade or whatever. Maybe look for a weighted ARCA rail if that's on you list.

Hey, looking at your pic again, how tall are you? Do you have your PRS extended out because you need the LOP or because you didn't do a cantilevered scope mount

Dang good eye man!

I’m 5’11 185lb - that’s just where I found LOP to be nice and then moved scope to proper eye relief.

I’ve seen the thing with the LOP being determined by putting the stock in the crook of your elbow and where your trigger finger hits the trigger, but to me it always feels so awkward and cramped like that so I’m sure if I went to a school they would tell me I’m a moron tho lol

 

[kl3309]

Dang good eye man!

I’m 5’11 185lb - that’s just where I found LOP to be nice and then moved scope to proper eye relief.

I’ve seen the thing with the LOP being determined by putting the stock in the crook of your elbow and where your trigger finger hits the trigger, but to me it always feels so awkward and cramped like that so I’m sure if I went to a school they would tell me I’m a moron tho lol

Those PRS3s are kind of on the long side for me so always wonder about folks that have them adjusted out. If it's comfortable for you then go with it.
Hope you get your rifle straightened out. May just be your having to get some time on it.

 

[hlee]

Is the JP brake this obnoxious thing?

JP - Muzzle Treatments

If so, the “recoil” might just be the insane amount of concussion these “tank brakes” can produce.

Beyond that, bipod hopping is caused by your position allowing the rifle to move.

I’ve posted this before. My son, who was a 135 lb 14 year old at the time, shooting a hunter weight 7mm rem mag. I’m going to posit that it recoils more than your ar15…

 

[NSKYLINE34]

Is the JP brake this obnoxious thing?

JP - Muzzle Treatments

If so, the “recoil” might just be the insane amount of concussion these “tank brakes” can produce.

Beyond that, bipod hopping is caused by your position allowing the rifle to move.

I’ve posted this before. My son, who was a 135 lb 14 year old at the time, shooting a hunter weight 7mm rem mag. I’m going to posit that it recoils more than your ar15…

I don’t think it’s that bad, but I should throw a can on it to see next time I go out

 

[mettee]

What specific buffer spring do you have?

Also, extra buffer weight will not increase your felt recoil bt itself.

....A spring that isn't the proper strength or too light or heavy, or too short or too long, etc, will cause more issues.

If you adjust the gas for lock back and the gun still recoils hard, something is not right with the spring and buffer.

Did I read right, this has a light weight bcg?

And you are right it shoot like a bb gun

 

[NSKYLINE34]

Is the JP brake this obnoxious thing?

JP - Muzzle Treatments

If so, the “recoil” might just be the insane amount of concussion these “tank brakes” can produce.

Beyond that, bipod hopping is caused by your position allowing the rifle to move.

I’ve posted this before. My son, who was a 135 lb 14 year old at the time, shooting a hunter weight 7mm rem mag. I’m going to posit that it recoils more than your ar15…

This is my brake:

JP Rifles

 

[NSKYLINE34]

What specific buffer spring do you have?

Also, extra buffer weight will not increase your felt recoil bt itself.

....A spring that isn't the proper strength or too light or heavy, or too short or too long, etc, will cause more issues.

If you adjust the gas for lock back and the gun still recoils hard, something is not right with the spring and buffer.

Did I read right, this has a light weight bcg?

And you are right it shoot like a bb gun

I will check on the spring, it’s either an aero precision rifle length or it’s a blue spring. I can’t recall which ended up staying in there.

BCG is NOT a light weight one in this rifle.

I will have to check which spring is in there right now though to be sure.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

A rifle buffer spring, in a carbine receiver extension, with a carbine buffer, is going to cause coil bind.

 

[NSKYLINE34]

A rifle buffer spring, in a carbine receiver extension, with a carbine buffer, is going to cause coil bind.

Right now it’s all rifle length stuff - tube, spring, and buffer.

I was just brain storming, but someone brought up a good point that it would abuse issues lol

 

[NSKYLINE34]

I did order a JP silent buffer for another rifle, so I will have to give it a try in this one first and try out the different springs it comes with

 

[redneckbmxer24]

A heavy braked 223 shouldn’t have bipod hop. I’ve had a lot of precision 223 gassers, some 24” braked and unbraked and none of them jumped or had any perceivable increase in recoil over shorter barrels. Something is definitely less than ideal on your setup.

 

[supercorndogs]

That'll actually feel like heavier recoil since none of the energy is spent by the unlocking and movement of the bolt. It'll feel like a bolt gun.

Not if the harsh recoil is coming from the action running too fast.

 

[NSKYLINE34]

Not if the harsh recoil is coming from the action running too fast.

By me adjusting the gas block to reduce the amount of gas that can go through it, wouldn’t that slow the action down? This is kind of what it seems like - feels like the buffer is just slamming to the back of the buffer tube. Which makes me actually question the spring more than anything. Maybe I got a defective one that’s too soft?

I’ll order another rifle length one from another company. I did build this during covid so it’s possible quality of stuff wash junk and I got a bad one?

I wish there was a device that I could put between my shoulder and the stock to measure the recoil impulse so I could do a direct comparison between several rifles and show the data. That way I can make adjustments and compare it all.

 

[NSKYLINE34]

Just ordered another Anderson Arms A2 rifle spring and I ordered a Griffin Armament +15% A2 spring too just in case and so I can test and compare. Only $20 for all of it so worst case I’ll have some spares for the future. But it’ll be good to rule out some things.

Now that I think of it, I’ll have to get some videos of shooting this 24” AR and some other rifles for comparison.