25 creed data needed

[sierracharlie338]

I’m helping a friend of mine that wants to build a 25cm and am trying to find the neck measurement of Alpha 25creed brass loaded with Berger 135s. If anyone has or can get those numbers it would be appreciated.

I am also trying to track down reamer prints of what I believe is the 3rd and final reamer print that blackjack put out before they went under. If I’m wrong on that please correct me. I have read where there is a .115 freebore and a .130 freebore. I’ve only been able to locate the .115 freebore prints.

Ultimately he wants to run the 135s around 2850-2900 in a 22 inch barrel if possible because he will be running a suppressor full time.

Thanks
Sc

 

[Supersubes]

I’m helping a friend of mine that wants to build a 25cm and am trying to find the neck measurement of Alpha 25creed brass loaded with Berger 135s. If anyone has or can get those numbers it would be appreciated.

I am also trying to track down reamer prints of what I believe is the 3rd and final reamer print that blackjack put out before they went under. If I’m wrong on that please correct me. I have read where there is a .115 freebore and a .130 freebore. I’ve only been able to locate the .115 freebore prints.

Ultimately he wants to run the 135s around 2850-2900 in a 22 inch barrel if possible because he will be running a suppressor full time.

Thanks
Sc

Cant help you with alpha brass numbers, but 2850-2900 in a 22” barrel is very optimistic. A 131 bj bullet might have done that, but not the berger, which pressures up more than the extra 4 grains would usually.

 

[whatsupdoc]

I can give you the neck measurement of Alpha Brass with 134 Hornady bullets is .2819-.2827

 

[jpcowboy]

I don't use alpha cases but this one was mixed in with mine from a match. I resized it and stuck a bullet in it.

 

[sierracharlie338]

Cant help you with alpha brass numbers, but 2850-2900 in a 22” barrel is very optimistic. A 131 bj bullet might have done that, but not the berger, which pressures up more than the extra 4 grains would usually.

That’s good to know I wasn’t aware of that. I know you’re pretty well versed in some of the digging I did on the topic before posting. Any ideas on the different reamers?

 

[Supersubes]

I’ll get back to you but mine is .115 freebore and I think .288 neck, which will take any brass more than likely. I think its BJ’s version 2 reamer.


When the 131 ace was out the 25 was a good choice. I dont want to see it go away, but I dont think it has a worthwhile edge over a 6.5 any more. Im very happy with mine, and it drives tacks, but when it dies im done with 25 cm.

 

[sierracharlie338]

I can give you the neck measurement of Alpha Brass with 134 Hornady bullets is .2819-.2827

I don't use alpha cases but this one was mixed in with mine from a match. I resized it and stuck a bullet in it.

Thanks guys

 

[S3th]

I can give you the neck measurement of Alpha Brass with 134 Hornady bullets is .2819-.2827

How are you liking the 134s?

 

[whatsupdoc]

I’ll get back to you but mine is .115 freebore and I think .288 neck, which will take any brass more than likely. I think its BJ’s version 2 reamer.


When the 131 ace was out the 25 was a good choice. I dont want to see it go away, but I dont think it has a worthwhile edge over a 6.5 any more. Im very happy with mine, and it drives tacks, but when it dies im done with 25 cm.

Not sure what my freebore is but .115 seems short, I run the Hornady 134's at 2.913 COAL so my freebore must be way longer than
.115. TScustoms spun the barrel for the Berger bullets but the Hornady bullets shoot excellent and are cheaper.

 

[Supersubes]

Not sure what my freebore is but .115 seems short, I run the Hornady 134's at 2.913 COAL so my freebore must be way longer than
.115. TScustoms spun the barrel for the Berger bullets but the Hornady bullets shoot excellent and are cheaper.

It is, very slightly. Not enough to matter I dont think. The 131 has a mile long nose and little bearing surface.

 

[7mmShooter]

When the 131 ace was out the 25 was a good choice. I dont want to see it go away, but I dont think it has a worthwhile edge over a 6.5 any more. Im very happy with mine, and it drives tacks, but when it dies im done with 25 cm.

When you say the 25 doesn’t have a worthwhile edge on the 6.5 anymore, what aspects are you referring to Subes? Projectile selection absolutely favors the 6.5 but the only projectiles I could see hanging with or outperforming the 25 135gr Berger or 134 ELD would be the 144gr Berger or 135gr A Tip 6.5 ballistics wise

Main reason I ask is I’m considering the 25CM but the 6.5 is definitely easier to source

Thanks

 

[lead ƒarmer]

I get the same measurements as jpcowboy above, and I run 41.9grs H4350 with a 135 Berger to get 2890 FPS from a 25" barrel. I also always shoot suppressed. It's a fun cartridge for sure, and it does have a slight advantage over the 6.5mm offerings. But mostly I shoot one because I can and why not?!

 

[Supersubes]

When you say the 25 doesn’t have a worthwhile edge on the 6.5 anymore, what aspects are you referring to Subes? Projectile selection absolutely favors the 6.5 but the only projectiles I could see hanging with or outperforming the 25 135gr Berger or 134 ELD would be the 144gr Berger or 135gr A Tip 6.5 ballistics wise

Main reason I ask is I’m considering the 25CM but the 6.5 is definitely easier to source

Thanks

I mean drop and drift. The distinct advantage the 25 cm had over the 6.5 cm disappeared with the 131 ace bullet imo. Its pretty close now between them. If you want to try something different, go for it.

 

[sierracharlie338]

Not sure what my freebore is but .115 seems short, I run the Hornady 134's at 2.913 COAL so my freebore must be way longer than
.115. TScustoms spun the barrel for the Berger bullets but the Hornady bullets shoot excellent and are cheaper.

I have a call into TS for the barrel for this build already so when I hear back I’ll see if he can give me the scores on their reamer.

 

[sierracharlie338]

I mean drop and drift. The distinct advantage the 25 cm had over the 6.5 cm disappeared with the 131 ace bullet imo. Its pretty close now between them. If you want to try something different, go for it.

I’m in the same boat as a lot of other guys that have paid for bullets we will never see from them. This will be my third quarter bore and I was definitely invested with the Aces. Now I’m down to 100 left. At least we have other options to replace them

 

[Supersubes]

I’m in the same boat as a lot of other guys that have paid for bullets we will never see from them. This will be my third quarter bore and I was definitely invested with the Aces. Now I’m down to 100 left. At least we have other options to replace them

yeah, what a shit show. It would be cool if Sierra would just sell the bullet under their name.

 

[sierracharlie338]

yeah, what a shit show. It would be cool if Sierra would just sell the bullet under their name.

I’d definitely pay good money for that lol

 

[Oldloser]

I get .283+- .0005 in Alpha 25 with the Berger 135s. I get the same in necked down Lapua 6.5 Creed with the Bergers as well. SAC die. ELDMs are just a bit more..

My Berger's g7 BC is .344 ( vs published .334) with the 135s out of a 28" 7.0 tw 400MODBB Bartlein Barrel. I could not find an Applied Ballistics PDM to match my DOPE. I run the 4DOF PDM at an Axial Form Factor of .95 and it's spot on. My load is 40.0 H4350 with MV of 2815.

My 25 has a smaller overall group size than the 6.5 144s at 800 yards. It shines in the vertical dispersion and it's a bit better in horizontal. This is the best rifle I have shot.

I shot ten of the ELDMs 134s last weekend and they were very close to the Bergers in elevation at 700 yards. But no idea about the overall dispersion yet.

With that short of a barrel, I'd suggest targeting 2700 fps for the .25 135s.

 

[sierracharlie338]

I get .283+- .0005 in Alpha 25 with the Berger 135s. I get the same in necked down Lapua 6.5 Creed with the Bergers as well. SAC die. ELDMs are just a bit more..

My Berger's g7 BC is .344 ( vs published .334) with the 135s out of a 28" 7.0 tw 400MODBB Bartlein Barrel. I could not find an Applied Ballistics PDM to match my DOPE. I run the 4DOF PDM at an Axial Form Factor of .95 and it's spot on. My load is 40.0 H4350 with MV of 2815.

My 25 has a smaller overall group size than the 6.5 144s at 800 yards. It shines in the vertical dispersion and it's a bit better in horizontal. This is the best rifle I have shot.

I shot ten of the ELDMs 134s last weekend and they were very close to the Bergers in elevation at 700 yards. But no idea about the overall dispersion yet.

With that short of a barrel, I'd suggest targeting 2700 fps for the .25 135s.

Awesome info thanks man

 

[RTH1800]

Making life complex for no reason or gain. Understand it's fun but possibly not time well spent.

 

[sierracharlie338]

Making life complex for no reason or gain. Understand it's fun but possibly not time well spent.

In which way

 

[RTH1800]

Barrels, brass, bullets and data are all less common. But I doubt you agree so drive on. Means nothing to me. Just another opinion.

 

[Supersubes]

Not sure what my freebore is but .115 seems short, I run the Hornady 134's at 2.913 COAL so my freebore must be way longer than
.115. TScustoms spun the barrel for the Berger bullets but the Hornady bullets shoot excellent and are cheaper.

Just looked at my notes from the day I chambered my barrel. The 131’s touched at an OAL of 2.867. With 380 rounds on the barrel, the 135’s touched at 2.857.


@sierracharlie338

I was wrong, .290 neck.

 

[Supersubes]

 

[S3th]

I think this thread just talked me out of a 25CM

 

[sierracharlie338]

Barrels, brass, bullets and data are all less common. But I doubt you agree so drive on. Means nothing to me. Just another opinion.

Less common than?….. your effort to be vague and cryptic is coming at the cost of context in your comments. If you have something valid to add to the conversation please do. That’s how we all learn.

 

[sierracharlie338]

View attachment 8250265

I still kick myself for not buying earlier on before the iceberg sank the titanic. Life lesson learned smh

 

[Supersubes]

Less common than?….. your effort to be vague and cryptic is coming at the cost of context in your comments. If you have something valid to add to the conversation please do. That’s how we all learn.

He’s comparing to 6.5.


Those four larger bags are actually the “XL” version they sold while that last sierra order was allegedly delayed. Theyre .020 longer in the bearing surface. Blems essentially. Shoot fine, bc seems to be there though. That nearly empty bag are the good ones. Maybe 100 left.

 

[Oldloser]

He’s comparing to 6.5.


Those four larger bags are actually the “XL” version they sold while that last sierra order was allegedly delayed. Theyre .020 longer in the bearing surface. Blems essentially. Shoot fine, bc seems to be there though. That nearly empty bag are the good ones. Maybe 100 left.

What is the length of the blackjacks? My Bergers are 1.414 and ELDMs are 1.452.

 

[Oldloser]

Barrels, brass, bullets and data are all less common. But I doubt you agree so drive on. Means nothing to me. Just another opinion.

Brass - neck down 6.5CM.
Dies - SAC sells exactly what you need. Or you can use other OEMs.
Bullets - Hornady and Berger have a ton out across all their lines.
Data - 4DOF matches both bullets exactly and AB has a dozen PDMs available. And in any case, you need to do your own homework.

25.06 has been around longer than the Creeds - and has been known for its ballistics since 1970.

 

[Oldloser]

Awesome info thanks man

Good article here with a 22 inch barrel. I think he is on the hide.

Operation Quarter Lord, the 25 Creedmoor

A custom rifle project creating one of the first 25 Creedmoor rifles

coldboremiracle.com

More background on the 2506.

25-06 Remington Beats 6.5 Creedmoor? — Ron Spomer Outdoors

The little known 25-06 Remington can outperform the 270 Winchester and 6.5 Creedmoor, and with better bullets could do even more.

www.ronspomeroutdoors.com

 

[Supersubes]

What is the length of the blackjacks? My Bergers are 1.414 and ELDMs are 1.452.

The base to ogive was taken with a 6mm comparator, so this dimension is long. Comparative measurement only.


OAL BTO
Berger 135 1.411 .782
BJ 131 1.436 .778
BJ 131 XL 1.451 .797

 

[RTH1800]

Less common than?….. your effort to be vague and cryptic is coming at the cost of context in your comments. If you have something valid to add to the conversation please do. That’s how we all learn.

When you as a question with so obvious an answer you are not looking for information or to learn. You are looking to argue.

If you think there are as many .25 cal barrels floating around as 6.5 your are wrong. If you think there is as much 25 cal match factory head stamped brass you are wrong. If you think there is as much data for your .25 cal match ctg as 6.5 CM you are wrong. If you think there are as many factory built match rifles in .25 cal as 6.5 your are wrong. If you think a match quality die set is as available, as 6.5 CM . If you think there are as many .25 cal match bullets in stock at dealers with as much variety you are wrong. If you think I give a fuck what you build you are wrong.

All easily proven facts. All easily ignored if you choose to.

Not being vague or cryptic. You are being obtuse because you have an agenda.

I do not care if you like .14, .19 cal, .25 cal, .339 cal. Means nothing to me. have fun.

 

[Supersubes]

Brass - neck down 6.5CM.
Dies - SAC sells exactly what you need. Or you can use other OEMs.
Bullets - Hornady and Berger have a ton out across all their lines.
Data - 4DOF matches both bullets exactly and AB has a dozen PDMs available. And in any case, you need to do your own homework.

25.06 has been around longer than the Creeds - and has been known for its ballistics since 1970.

There are not a ton of bullets that we would shoot. Lots of hunting bullets, sure. In fact most would consider just two bullets to be widely useful here, and thats the 135 berger and the 134 eld. I suppose you could add the 133 berger in there. Then there are two solids from PVA.

Most would consider the 6 cm and 6.5 cm to be hair splitting down range. Each offering slight tradeoffs. The 25 is splitting that hair again.

 

[sierracharlie338]

Good article here with a 22 inch barrel. I think he is on the hide.

Operation Quarter Lord, the 25 Creedmoor

A custom rifle project creating one of the first 25 Creedmoor rifles

coldboremiracle.com

Yeah he was running the BJs and I’m now seeing repeatedly that the 135s Can’t touch the same speeds that the BJs were in the same rifle. But yes Coldbore is a good starting point.

 

[Supersubes]

What is the length of the blackjacks? My Bergers are 1.414 and ELDMs are 1.452.

Berger 135 in the middle, flanked by the 131 XL on the left and regular 131 on the right.

Hard to see in the pics but the BJ meplats are very pointed. Much more so than the berger.

 

[sierracharlie338]

When you as a question with so obvious an answer you are not looking for information or to learn. You are looking to argue.

If you think there are as many .25 cal barrels floating around as 6.5 your are wrong. If you think there is as much 25 cal match factory head stamped brass you are wrong. If you think there is as much data for your .25 cal match ctg as 6.5 CM you are wrong. If you think there are as many factory built match rifles in .25 cal as 6.5 your are wrong. If you think a match quality die set is as available, as 6.5 CM . If you think there are as many .25 cal match bullets in stock at dealers with as much variety you are wrong. If you think I give a fuck what you build you are wrong.

All easily proven facts. All easily ignored if you choose to.

Not being vague or cryptic. You are being obtuse because you have an agenda.

I do not care if you like .14, .19 cal, .25 cal, .339 cal. Means nothing to me. have fun.

Lol answered as I suspected. Feel free to drive on from this thread bud. Had you posted a simple reply about what you meant instead of the long winded shit that has nothing to do with anything I would agreed with your thought process and we could have moved on. But instead of a simple answer you feel the need to point fingers and makes smart ass claims about stuff I don’t give a single fuck about because this rifle build is for a buddy of mine. No one is arguing the fact that 6.5 is more prevalent than the 25cm stuff except you because you wanted to argue. No where in my op did I ask anything or say anything about 25cal availability vs 6.5. Take your desire to shit on threads right on out the door.

 

[RTH1800]

No thanks. I don't think you are in charge of who post or what is posted. I simply stated facts. You cannot refute a single one of them so you attack me instead.

 

[Supersubes]

Yeah he was running the BJs and I’m now seeing repeatedly that the 135s Can’t touch the same speeds that the BJs were in the same rifle. But yes Coldbore is a good starting point.

Its kinda weird. I initially thought the berger would just be a fatter bullet. So I used a blade mic to measure the bearing surface diameters carefully. My bergers are more slender than the 131 throughout their entire bearing surface length. Both bullets taper up from the ogive to just above the boat tail. Both have a pressure ring at the boat tail, the 131 is larger there.

It should be the 131 that pressures more.


@sierracharlie338 i forgot to add a pic to the above post. Its there now.

 

[sierracharlie338]

Its kinda weird. I initially thought the berger would just be a fatter bullet. So I used a blade mic to measure the bearing surface diameters carefully. My bergers are more slender than the 131 throughout their entire bearing surface length. Both bullets taper up from the ogive to just above the boat tail. Both have a pressure ring at the boat tail, the 131 is larger there.

It should be the 131 that pressures more.


@sierracharlie338 i forgot to add a pic to the above post. Its there now.

It’s weird how only 4 grains one direction or the other is making that much of a difference.

 

[Supersubes]

It’s weird how only 4 grains one direction or the other is making that much of a difference.

Yep. Most of us just stuffed them on top of our 131 charge at first. No bueno.

 

[whatsupdoc]

Just looked at my notes from the day I chambered my barrel. The 131’s touched at an OAL of 2.867. With 380 rounds on the barrel, the 135’s touched at 2.857.


@sierracharlie338

I was wrong, .290 neck.
View attachment 8250246

Looks like my freebore is .115, with 150 rounds through the barrel the 135 Bergers touched the lands at 2.865 COAL.

 

[Supersubes]

Looks like my freebore is .115, with 150 rounds through the barrel the 135 Bergers touched the lands at 2.865 COAL.

Id call that an agreement of the numbers.

 

[whatsupdoc]

Berger 135 in the middle, flanked by the 131 XL on the left and regular 131 on the right.

Hard to see in the pics but the BJ meplats are very pointed. Much more so than the berger.View attachment 8250319

I have a few hundred of the 131 BJ bullets, dont know if I have the standard or XL (did not know that there were XL) .
What are the lengths of the two BJ versions?

 

[Supersubes]

I have a few hundred of the 131 BJ bullets, dont know if I have the standard or XL (did not know that there were XL) .
What are the lengths of the two BJ versions?

Theyre a few posts back. The formatting is screwed up, but you’ll get it.

 

[Supersubes]

I have a few hundred of the 131 BJ bullets, dont know if I have the standard or XL (did not know that there were XL) .
What are the lengths of the two BJ versions?

You likely don't have the xl’s. They came way way into the dry spell. Like a year in.


OAL BTO
Berger 135 1.411 .782
BJ 131 1.436 .778
BJ 131 XL 1.451 .797

 

[sierracharlie338]

No thanks. I don't think you are in charge of who post or what is posted. I simply stated facts. You cannot refute a single one of them so you attack me instead.

Clearly you live in your own world. I’m sorry that you think I care about availability facts but I do not. Since you have nothing useful to add to this thread that I started it would be appreciated if you found somewhere else to provide facts. I’m done with this conversation.

 

[Supersubes]

It’s weird how only 4 grains one direction or the other is making that much of a difference.

135 berger seated to a .030 jump. Just so happen to be loading a batch now.

 

[sierracharlie338]

135 berger seated to a .030 jump. Just so happen to be loading a batch now.View attachment 8250407

looks like it sits in there just right.

 

[sierracharlie338]

Not sure what my freebore is but .115 seems short, I run the Hornady 134's at 2.913 COAL so my freebore must be way longer than
.115. TScustoms spun the barrel for the Berger bullets but the Hornady bullets shoot excellent and are cheaper.

Talked to Travis a bit ago and they run the blackjack reamer with 115 freebore.