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25 Creedmoor - Best of the Creeds?

Towhead

Private
Minuteman
May 24, 2023
24
8
San Antonio, Texas
I recently discovered that people are shooting long range rifles chambered in 25 Creedmoor, and I thought this might be the ideal Creedmoor, at least in theory:
* less recoil, less drop, and more muzzle velocity than 6.5 Creed.
* heavier weight bullets with better BCs, better drift, and longer barrel life than 6 Creed.

The increased speed over 6.5 Creed would help with using it for hunting, as most bullets, especially the monos, in the small bore category thrive on 2600 fps and above speed when it comes to terminal performance. It's easier to land at that velocity when you start 100+ fps faster.

The better BCs, better drift, and extended barrel life over 6 Creed would aid in long range target shooting.

So is 25 Creed the goldilocks Creed?

I had to model it in Gordon's Reloading Tool to try to find out. I compared the following bullets out of a 24" barrel:

Target. Hunting.
6 Creed. 115 VLD. 80 TTSX-BT
25 Creed. 135 LRH. 100 TTSX-BT
6.5 Creed. 153.5 LRH. 120 TTSX-BT

Target:

For the each of the target bullet loads, I used a similar amount of Reload Swiss RS60 in GRT, which seemed to yield the best mix of velocity, %burn, Pmax, and load ratio. The 6 Creed sent the 115 gr Berger VLD at 3030 fps; the 25 Creed yielded 2900 fps with 135 gr hybrid; and the 6.5 Creed produced 2770 fps with the 153.5 gr hybrid.

With the Shooter app, I modeled the external ballistics of these three loads at 1000 yds and with a 10 mph crosswind. Here the 25 Creed came in second in drop and first in drift. The 6 Creed came in first in drop but last in drift, and the 6.5 came in last in drop and second in drift. With a 1st and 2nd place finish, the 25 Creed won in my book. It also beats the second place finisher, the 6 Creed, in barrel life. Of course all three are very capable long range target cartridges and any "wins" were achieved by small margins.

Hunting:

For each of the hunting loads I also used Reload Swiss RS60. Here in GRT the 6 Creed yielded insane velocities with the Barnes 80 gr TTSX, beating the 25 Creed's 100 gr and the 6.5 Creed's 120 gr bullets by 240 fps and 430 fps respectively, but 3500+ fps is hardly a requirement for a good hunting round. And the 6.5 Creed's 3130 fps is more than adequate to hit above 2600 fps at reasonable hunting distances, especially with the 6.5's better BCs preserving that speed over longer distances. With hunting it's hard to determine a clear winner, but here are some velocities and energies at range to help us decide.

6 Creed TTSX 80 gr (3550 fps):

2000 ft-lbs @ 50 yds
1500 ft-lbs @ 200 yds
1000 ft-lbs @ 400 yds
2600 fps @ 310 yds
2400 fps @ 390 yds

25 Creed TTSX 100 gr (3315 fps):

2000 ft-lbs @ 100 yds
1500 ft-lbs @ 260 yds
1000 ft-lbs @ 450 yds
2600 fps @ 260 yds
2400 fps @ 340 yds

6.5 Creed TTSX 120 gr (3130 fps):

2000 ft-lbs @ 160 yds
1500 ft-lbs @ 330 yds
1000 ft-lbs @ 550 yds
2600 fps @ 230 yds
2400 fps @ 320 yds

Let's say that 2000 ft-lb with at least 2400 fps (ideally 2600 fps or more for optimum monolithic bullet expansion) is enough to kill a moose with good shot placement on broadside; 1500 ft-lbs for an elk; and 1000 ft-lbs for a white tail deer. Discounting varmint hunting, how do the Creeds stack up?
Moose. Elk. White Tail.
6 Creed. 50 yd. 200 yd. 390 yd
25 Creed. 100 yd. 260 yd. 340 yd
6.5 Creed. 160 yd. 320 yd. 320 yd

It looks like 6.5 Creed is the winner in my book in the hunting category even without considering that it has a slightly larger diameter. It adds 60 yds to the range of moose and elk hunting when compared to the second place finisher, the 25 Creed, and it only gives up 20 yds on white tail due to insufficient bullet speed. 6 Creed wins with white tail at range due to its 1st in class speed and thus its maintenance of adequate bullet performance over longer distances.

The 25 Creed performs well here though too, earning second place honors with all three game types. 100 gr bullets on elk and moose might be a stretch but monos are known to punch above their weight if given adequate speed and energy.

Summary:

Target:
1st = 25 Creed
2nd = 6 Creed
3rd = 6.5 Creed

Hunting:
1st = 6.5 Creed
2nd = 25 Creed
3rd = 6 Creed

With a first and second place finish, I'd say the 25 Creedmoor is the best all around Creedmoor, with 6.5 coming in second. What did you think? Was this a fair analysis?

6 Creed would obviously have rocked the varmint hunting category, but if I analyzed this, I would have had to include 22 Creedmoor in the discussion. Also recoil differences turned out to be fairly negligible as calculated by GRT, with only 2 lb separating 6.5 from 6 Creed (with 25 Creed in the middle)
 
I need to make a correction. The 25 Creed did not come in 1st in drift; the 6.5 did. But the 25 Creed was a very close second in both drift and drop, and so it still wins the target category. However, with no clear loser behind the 25 Creed in target shooting, its victory in the overall competition may be in jeopardy. It may have to share the title with the 6.5, since they both got a 1st and 2nd place finish.
 
I am a long, long, long time shooter of 25’s. So, don’t take this personal. I have an issue with your choice of 6.5 target bullet. I believe that while you can push a 153 grain bullet out of the 6.5 case, it is better optimized with a bullet in the 140 to 144 grain range. This may affect the tables.
 
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I am a long, long, long time shooter of 25’s. So, don’t take this personal. I have an issue with your choice of 6.5 target bullet. I believe that while you can push a 153 grain bullet out of the 6.5 case, it is better optimized with a bullet in the 140 to 144 grain range. This may affect the tables.
Don’t tell that to the guys winning PRS matches with 153s and 156s. I doubt they are shooting the heavier bullets b/c it gives them a disadvantage 🙄. Pretty sure every 2-day PRS match that’s been won with a 6.5 creed in the last 2 or 3 yrs was with 150 class bullets.
 
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Don’t tell that to the guys winning PRS matches with 153s and 156s. I doubt they are shooting the heavier bullets b/c it gives them a disadvantage 🙄. Pretty sure every 2-day PRS match that’s been won with a 6.5 creed in the last 2 or 3 yrs was with 150 class bullets.
OK, I’ll call your bluff, who, won two day matches using a 6.5 Creedmoor since 2020. And what matches did they win. And were these ELR matches or regular PRS matches.
 
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OK, I’ll call your bluff, who, won two day matches using a 6.5 Creedmoor since 2020. And what matches did they win. And were these ELR matches or regular PRS matches.
Morgun King has won a bunch of National PRS matches with his 6.5 shooting heavy Bergers since 2020. I'm not going to bother looking up the matches for you but he's talked about it a lot on his podcast.

Here's a good link for current cartridge selection, Cal references the rise of 25's in PRS and that a few are using 6.5 CM and doing well.

Different game with power factor but 150 class bullets in 6.5 are pretty popular in NRL Hunter and lots of wins have gone to that and 25's at two day events. A 134/135 is about the lightest bullet you can make power factor with in NRL Hunter.

I want to hear more about Hornady standardizing 25 CM, I've been wondering if that was coming!
 
Saw a pic of Hornady factory head stamped 25CM brass from a PRS match some months ago. It already exists. Just not SAAMI approved and announced yet. I heard SAAMI usually announces new cartridges in the fall.

Also, Andy Slade talks about shooting heavy for caliber 6.5 156 EOL bullets in a 1:7 twist I think on the Miles to Matches podcast.
 
I asked if Hornady if they would do a 90 ELD VT bullet a week ago and they didn't say yes or no. I'd love that bullet for yotes in a 25 cal.

Every time I have started down the 25 cal road, the 6.5 PRC and 100 ELD VT at ~3500fps comes to mind (and can shoot heavier bullets too). If the 25 Creed could launch a 90 ELD VT at a similar velocity that would be very interesting
 
Isn't this the same as the improved .250 Savage? But with fast twist of course.
What's old is new again but to give another cliche: the devil's in the details.

Hornady blah blah, marketing blah blah, optimized twist rates for heavy bullets, mag length bleep bloop blah. Same talking points as the ones we've had for 15 years now about 260 Rem vs 6.5 CM, etc. Hornady has a few warts but has done really well modernizing, accurizing and yes; marketing old favorites into improved versions that are a huge commercial success.
 
Newly designed bullets is what changes everything, nothing 25cal would be on any competition radar unless the 131, 134 and 135 wasn't around.

I picked up 2k of the Berger 135s so I'm going to give the Creedmore case a try. Never owned one but I felt the same way before my first 6br and it's my all time favorite!
 
I wanted the modularity of cartridge families like the x47 or creedmoor. Get a bushing die in the family and run with it. 6.5, 25, 6mm whatever.
Now I kind of wish I would have gone GT. Switch back and forth between 6 to 25 whenever components get short.
 
the only person I know who has ran a 6gt in a bartlein barrel had it die at 1700 rounds shooting just slightly slower than my 6 creed which gets 1500 rounds average in similar lifestyles.
my uneducated opinion, it's about speed.
I really think I could get 6 br barrel life in my 6 creed if I loaded to 6 br speeds with appropriate powders. I probably won't test it as it shoots so damn good where it's at.
 
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the only person I know who has ran a 6gt in a bartlein barrel had it die at 1700 rounds shooting just slightly slower than my 6 creed which gets 1500 rounds average in similar lifestyles.
my uneducated opinion, it's about speed.
I really think I could get 6 br barrel life in my 6 creed if I loaded to 6 br speeds with appropriate powders. I probably won't test it as it shoots so damn good where it's at.
I'm planning a 6GT but crucially I won't be trying to turn it into a 6CM. I see a lot of people running cartridges at 100+%. Better to step up to something with more horsepower than run on the ragged edge all the time.
 
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I'm planning a 6GT but crucially I won't be trying to turn it into a 6CM. I see a lot of people running cartridges at 100+%. Better to step up to something with more horsepower than run on the ragged edge all the time.
exactly my thoughts. the creed gives me exactly the velocities I want almost in book loadings.
 
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Hoping to get 2500 on this X-Caliber barrel. At 1825 now. See how it likes running a lifetime of turtle speeds. Fastest I've run it is 2840 after break in and speed up. Then slowed back down to 2765.
 
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I'm planning a 6GT but crucially I won't be trying to turn it into a 6CM. I see a lot of people running cartridges at 100+%. Better to step up to something with more horsepower than run on the ragged edge all the time.
I own a 7TCU with a Shilen barrel. Never pushed it, 15.5 grains of SR4759, gets me roughly 1500FPS. Shot more perfect scores then all my other handguns combined. (when I was a tiny bit younger and still had shooting skills)

Probably has 10,000 or more rounds through it. Last time I checked sights, it put three rounds under an inch at 200 meters.

Point, find a velocity well below max that delivers expected accuracy and forget trying to make a 6BR or GT a 6.5 Weatherby Wright Magnum. My last 6.5 Creedmoor barrel had 2800 rounds through it, still holding velocity and hitting steel at all ranges I shot at. Only changed it to 6GT because I wanted to standardize and cut down on reloading work. The other GT I am shooting has close to 1800 rounds and is still my goto rifle. As @Gogga said, if you want more horsepower, get a bigger gun. With todays scopes ballistic programs and high BC bullets, trying to get that last few FPS is pointless.
IMG_1475.jpeg


Sbooting 40x40’s 18 years ago and the XP can still shoot
 
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The one thing that surprised me with the 25cm is I think it recoils more than a 6.5 at the same speed and so does my friend that also just chambered one. I can't get 134s any faster then I can get 140s out of the 6.5 with Peterson brass. I still like it but may go back to 6.5 for better choices with components
 
The one thing that surprised me with the 25cm is I think it recoils more than a 6.5 at the same speed and so does my friend that also just chambered one. I can't get 134s any faster then I can get 140s out of the 6.5 with Peterson brass. I still like it but may go back to 6.5 for better choices with components
I do believe that it's going to be pretty much impossible for the 25 to equal the 6.5 in velocity. Gets pretty technical and I really cannot give a decent explanation, but I believe it has to do with the surface area of the back of the bullet. Given, equal powder, and everything else being as the same as possible, the greater diameter, gives greater area to exert pressure.

Ran into this decades ago, when I was comparing my .25-06 shooting a 120 grain bullet compared to a .270 shooting a 130 grain bullet. The .270 always had more velocity than the .25-06. Automotive engineers refer to this as piston area. The greater the piston area, the more horsepower the engine is able to generate, all other factors equal. Of course, they never really are. More cylinders are smaller, less reciprocating mass, so higher RPM is obtainable pulling in more air and pushing out more exhaust. Its a mess, but take my word for it, a 25 creed is not going to make the same velocities as a 6.5 creed, bullet weights being similar.
 
lets compare equal bullets across the diameters.
berger LR hybrids, 109, 135, 144.
BC for the weight is darn similar because I think it's the same basic design adapted to different diameters.
in terms of speed, 24, then 25, then 26.
BC/wind at actual usage speeds 26, 25, 24
buy lapua brass for any creedmoor or don't expect your brass to last for hot competition loads.
I actually prefer the 6 creed loaded hot with dtacs cause that's where the accuracy lies and the recoil is manageable.
for 28 inch the guys running them hot like about 3100 fps in the 6 creed, 2950 in the 25, and 2800ish in the 6.5
assuming you're running the heavies real hot the recoil is surprisingly similar between all three with obviously the lighter bullets having the slight edge.
barrel life (loading hot and doing 10 shot strings)
26 creed gives about 2500, 25 creed about 2k and 6 creed about 1500
my friends eddie Patrick and Patrick Patrick switched to the 25 cal when blackjack came out and they still love the quarterbore.
I'm still a fan of the 6, fuck barrels.
there's no real difference and the cost difference is neglidageable. I bought into the 6 creed for dad right when lapua announced brass for it and got us a reamer and dies.
as I've gotten better, my groups have gotten smaller. needmoor creedmoor baby.
 
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holy fuckin shit that was stupid.
I’m curious what you are referring to as stupid. If you are referring to the equal bullet mass of different calibers favoring the larger caliber for acceleration ain’t stupid, it’s physics.

Pressure=force/area
Force=mass*acceleration
Pressure=(m*a)/area

If we take two 130gr bullets, one being 25 cal and one being 6.5 cal, and put the same pressure to them the 6.5 will have a larger area for the force to act upon and if there is more force with equal mass the acceleration must inevitably go up.
 
but let's get real, who compares a long range 135 hybrid to a 130 speer or scenar L
different ogives and bearing lengths come into play greatly that's why I stuck with the same general design for a simple comparison.
fwiw I was drinking.
 
Don’t tell that to the guys winning PRS matches with 153s and 156s. I doubt they are shooting the heavier bullets b/c it gives them a disadvantage 🙄. Pretty sure every 2-day PRS match that’s been won with a 6.5 creed in the last 2 or 3 yrs was with 150 class bullets.
All the guys I shot with running the 6.5 creed last season were running 140 hybrids to includ morgun king when I squaded with him at box canyon
 
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The one thing that surprised me with the 25cm is I think it recoils more than a 6.5 at the same speed and so does my friend that also just chambered one. I can't get 134s any faster then I can get 140s out of the 6.5 with Peterson brass. I still like it but may go back to 6.5 for better choices with components

This is interesting to read.

I have been debating switching over to 25 creed from 6.5, to get the hypothetical lower recoil with greater speed and same energy on target. If the 25 is a wash as far as all that goes, then there is no incentive to switch from 6.5
 
This is interesting to read.

I have been debating switching over to 25 creed from 6.5, to get the hypothetical lower recoil with greater speed and same energy on target. If the 25 is a wash as far as all that goes, then there is no incentive to switch from 6.5
The recoil should be the same for the same mass at the same speed. Could be an impulse thing maybe? Like a turbo Vs naturally aspirated engine. May accelerate to the same speed in the same time but get there differently.
 
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This is interesting to read.

I have been debating switching over to 25 creed from 6.5, to get the hypothetical lower recoil with greater speed and same energy on target. If the 25 is a wash as far as all that goes, then there is no incentive to switch from 6.5
With Peterson brass I run 134s the same exact speed as 140g 6.5 elds. I'm not the only one who thinks the recoil of the 25 is more then the 6.5. it's definitely not less by any noticeable difference. What you gain is a higher g7 bc by .030 or so. I know guys running bergers faster but anything over 2800fps and I got a sticky bolt in the rain ymmv
 
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With Peterson brass I run 134s the same exact speed as 140g 6.5 elds. I'm not the only one who thinks the recoil of the 25 is more then the 6.5. it's definitely not less by any noticeable difference. What you gain is a higher g7 bc by .030 or so. I know guys running bergers faster but anything over 2800fps and I got a sticky bolt in the rain ymmv

I currently run 140 ELD in my 22" proof barrel at 2765 avg. That average is between 15 degrees and 90 degrees throughout the year. lots of data. 41.1gr H4350, lapua LRP brass

Hornady lists the 134 ELD G7 at .325, the 140 g7 at .326. So a wash.

If i were to switch 25 creed, i would use the Peterson SRP brass too. So this is very helpful. Probably $ better spent on other projects
 
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I hope Hornady does a 90 ELD VT for the 25 cals, that would be pretty sweet in the 25 CM or PRC. The 100 ELD VT in the 6.5's is no slouch though (especially in the PRC). I'm considering the same tings as mentioned above and may just go 6.5 PRC but trying to be patient to see what factory offerings come out.

In the mean time, the 6 CM does pretty much everything I want it to
 
My last thoughts on the subject. I have a long attachment to the .25 bore, owning multiple .25-06’s and a really sweet Savage 99 in 250 Savage. So, I really thought that building a .25 Creedmoor or .25 GT might be nice. (Or possibly even a long throated .250 Savage.). However, the 6GT works for my Precision Rifle, and I still have some investment in 6.5 Creedmoor. Never had a problem with the 6.5 and if I was to build or rebarrel another rifle I would likely go to the 6.5.

It always seemed to work and do what I wanted it to do and having used the 130 Berger VLD’s. I would have a hard time justifying going to a different round to shoot the same weight bullet at a bit less velocity.
 
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I hope Hornady does a 90 ELD VT for the 25 cals, that would be pretty sweet in the 25 CM or PRC. The 100 ELD VT in the 6.5's is no slouch though (especially in the PRC). I'm considering the same tings as mentioned above and may just go 6.5 PRC but trying to be patient to see what factory offerings come out.

In the mean time, the 6 CM does pretty much everything I want it to
Pretty sweet for what use?
 
Anyone have a load for 110 ELD-X or similar weight for 25CM?

Edit:
9/4/24
71F 36% 30.36in
Seekins 25CM 18” McGowan SS 1:7
Garmin Xero C1 Pro

Hornady 110 ELD-X
H4350
Lapua SRP Brass x 3
COL 1.905
BTO 2.1815
42.0 2906, 2899, 2885, 2885, 2886 SD 8.8 ES 22 1.5” no pressure 1.3” group
42.5 2931, 2934, 2939 mild pressure
43.0 2961, 2975 mild pressure




image_cropper_A5EB8AC3-856E-4CF8-93A2-32E6BB48F506-27904-00000EC23C38F9C6.jpeg
 
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Looking for 75 gr VMAX recipes.

Edit:
9/22/24
86F 58% 29.92”
Seekins SP10 McGowan 18” SS 1:7
Garmin Xero Pro

Hornady 75 VMAX
Varget
Alpha SRP brass NEW
GM205M
COL 1.9090
BTO 2.0825
34.0 2715, 2607, 2622, 2691, 2703 1.2” no pressure NP
34.5 2731, 2747, 2737 1” NP
35.0 2760, 2756, 2771,2793 1.2” NP
35.5 2833, 2811, 2788, 2800, 2751 0.74” NP
36.0 2856, 2808, 2820 0.8” mild pressure

image_cropper_5191A0F8-8DD3-4693-812E-53E0D9F50AB6-65908-00001D849F27C8F2.jpeg


9/23/24:
44 gr Varget only mild extractor ring on Alpha brass. Working up loads so only loaded 4 but looks promising.
3421 fps
image_cropper_C7960CE8-545C-47CC-A022-4B3D37A75950-66440-00001E95CB9B93F5.jpeg
 
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Mine is up and running, after break in and load work mine has 2 very distinct nodes at 40.3gr (2757fps) and 41.5gr (2834fps) with H4350, Berger 135 Hybrids. I only went to 42gr in ladder testing with a little pressure so I stopped there, I'm not chasing speed, I need an all weather PRS load.

I used Hornady 134s (40gr of 4350) for break in and it shot them outstanding as well, honestly no difference than the Bergers however I only ran them on paper and minimal range.

28" Brux truck axle that is easily 1/4moa with either charge but the lighter node is a tick tighter.
 
Mine is up and running, after break in and load work mine has 2 very distinct nodes at 40.3gr (2757fps) and 41.5gr (2834fps) with H4350, Berger 135 Hybrids. I only went to 42gr in ladder testing with a little pressure so I stopped there, I'm not chasing speed, I need an all weather PRS load.

I used Hornady 134s (40gr of 4350) for break in and it shot them outstanding as well, honestly no difference than the Bergers however I only ran them on paper and minimal range.

28" Brux truck axle that is easily 1/4moa with either charge but the lighter node is a tick tighter.
What brass? I have a 28in on the way and was hoping for a comfy 2915ish with h4350.
 
What brass? I have a 28in on the way and was hoping for a comfy 2915ish with h4350.
While its possible, you’ll be pushing pretty hard. I shoot the 135’s at 2800 out of a 27” bartlein. Great accuracy, just not a speed demon.



@Towhead dont know which of the creeds you've owned, but the 25 vs 6.5 is hair splitting at best. When I cook this barrel, i’ll go back to 6.5.
 
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