260 rem VS 6.5 creed
- Thread starter matleez
- Start date
Kinda reminds me of what was said about the 30-06. "Remember the Great .30-06 Debate 10 Years Ago?"
https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/forum/...e-10-years-ago
Verified with MagnetoSpeed
Velocities are the norn with RL26 I am not the only one getting an extra 100 to 150 fps increase using it, you should give it a try.
Berger has RL26 listed for 135 gr classic Hunter. They have 45 gr for start load at 2657 fps and 49.8 gr max load at 2977 fps out of a 24" tube. Their info is almost spot on with QL with RL26 (QL 2972 fps at 57551 psi) as well as info at Alliant shows that QL data on RL26 to be accurate. Based off this I started with 46 gr. with the 140 Nosler RDF and worked up then did the same with Hornady 143 ELDX. Being that one of the weak link in the 6.5 Creedmoor seems to be primer pockets loosening up even with factory loads that have been pressure checked to be below SAAMI Max Pressure I should start to see signs there. QL shows the 49 gr load with 143 ELDX to be 61221 psi, I believe they are close but without Pressure Trace or other pressure testing I can't be sure other than watching for tell tale signs. 48 grains gets just at the 3000 mark with QL pressures of 56490 psi. and that is the spot I am going to work on.
my speeds with H4350 using the MgnetoSpeed where slower than most peoples,Load is with 140 gr Nosler RFD
41 gr. 5 shot average 2674 fps
41.5 gr 5 shot average 2720 fps
42 gr 5 shot average 2758 fps
42.5 gr 5 shot average 2796 fps
I tested my last 140 RDF several days after the first tests with H4350 and RL26.
My results with 43 gr H4350, BR2 Primers, Nosler Brass, COAL of 2.890", 5 shots averaged 2839 fps group measured .391" ctc at 100 yards
as I said my results with RL26 were as follows
140 gr Nosler RDF
46 5 shot average 2805
46.5 5 shot average 2846
47gr. 5 shot average 2881
47.5gr 5 shot average 2924
48gr 5 shot average 2968
48.5gr 5 shot average 3006
no pressure signs
143 gr ELD-X please note I have edited info bellow to reflect that even though I had no sign of pressure according to speeds I tested with the magnetospeed QL data had to be adjusted to reflect my actual ba in my lot of RL26, the default ba reflected lower speeds and lower pressure.
46gr. 2872 fps average vel. ES 13 SD 6.5
46.5gr 2908 fps average vel. ES 6 SD 3
47gr 2939 fps average vel. ES 10 SD 5.5
47.5gr 2954 fps average vel. ES 11 SD 5.85
48gr 2999 fps average vel. ES 12 SD 6.6 (Highest safe load according to QL)
48.5gr 3029 fps average vel. ES 13 SD 6.65 ( too high of pressure to obtain velocity according to QL my lot of RL26 had higher ba than default)
49gr 3054 fps average vel. ES 19 SD 9.6 * ( too high of pressure to obtain velocity according to QL my lot of RL26 had higher ba than default)
*this load was compressed I had to use a drop tube to get all the powder in.
48grs had best group of .216"ctc 49gr was not too bad at .567"ctc
I need to add that even though initial testing showed no pressure signs the 143 ELD-X 48.5 gr and 49 gr loads were over pressure according to QL based off velocities. I changed the ba in the program for the lot of RL26 I had to reflect actual velocities and have sent a total of 1000 rounds of bullets down the tube.
I have settled on a load with RL26 that gives me 2998 fps with HBN coated 143 ELD-X bullets, I now use HBN on all my bullets in both of my 6.5 Creedmoors the loads that gave best results at the upper node but less than 62K pressure are as follows:
26" Barrel Build Savage long action 1000 rounds to date with no measurable increase in distance to lands with loads at following speeds all with RL26
130 ELD-M 3050 fps
140 ELD-M 2990 fps
147 ELD-M 2930 fps
143 ELD-X 2998 fps
24" Barrel 10BA Stealth 300 rounds to date down this one
130 ELD-M 3030 fps
147 ELD-M 2850 fps
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What brand .308 brass were you using? My Winchester brass has a neck thickness of .013" while other brands go as much as .016". When I bought new brass with .016" neck thickness, I ran a .310" button through them and then turned the necks to .013" to match the Winchester cases. I also measured case volume difference and altered my loads in the new brass accordingly. They shot to the same POI at least to 300 yards. I'm limited to 350 yards so I can't comment on longer distances.
Perhaps turning .308 case necks before making them 260 cases would be easier than turning them afterwards? Just a thought.
I was just using whatever shooting range pickup brass landed in my hand first when I stuck my hand into my "generic brass" box. I tried my little experiment with 4 pieces (of .308 brass), one of which was Remington, I think, and I have no idea what the rest were. When I measured my (Federal) headstamped .260 brass neck thickness, I came up with .012 after a trip through my (Forster) sizing die. As I recall, the resized Remington .308 case was around .016, as you mentioned; I confirmed that it would not chamber in my rifle before I invested in the neck turning setup. Once I bit the bullet (pardon the pun) and invested in the neck turner (I'm using the 21st Century mini lathe, and am extremely pleased with it), I set it to give me a .012 thick neck and called it a day.
Kinda right where you'd expect it to, just behind them. People tend to run them a little harder, because the brass is strong. Really no practical difference between them.
Just for reference for 260: I am getting 2700 ish (still finalizing load) with 147 grain eld and 2780 with 130 gr (not max load). I am running 20" stock barrel till it goes out.
Look at the 6.5 Guys' YouTube channel. They did a test of the Lapua Creedmoor brass, and while pretty limited in scope (using a single piece of brass), they got upwards of 15 firings out of it I believe. It seems like it's plenty strong.
Thanks for the video, that's good stuff.
I've been considering having a custom rifle in 6.5 CM built so you guys better buy all the Lapua brass you need because as soon as I have a rifle and am ready to start reloading for it I'm sure all the suppliers/retailers will dry up and it will be impossible to find.
I believe so. Ive used it and its super stout stuff, like the 47 brass has always been.
I wasted a lot of time looking at 260 vs creed vs 65 lapua.
By the end of the day you gotta be 1/8moa shooter and be the god of the windcalls and have no mirage to see the difference between the two. The shit we worry about is fucking silly.
I think people should look at it from a different angle, choose single feed or magazine first, choose your bullet 2nd, pick the right cartridge for the job.
By the end of the day you gotta be 1/8moa shooter and be the god of the windcalls and have no mirage to see the difference between the two. The shit we worry about is fucking silly.
I think people should look at it from a different angle, choose single feed or magazine first, choose your bullet 2nd, pick the right cartridge for the job.
I went with the 260 instead of the 6.5C because I wanted to use Lapua brass and didn't want to take the chance to go with the small primer. If Lapua made large primers for 6.5C, I would have gone that route. I wanted to stay on the safe side and went with the 260 instead and I have no regrets.
For reference I'm shooting the 260 in an AIAT with LFP.
147 gr ELDM at 2812 FPS with a 26" barrel and 42.9g IMR 4451 (Lapua brass and BR2 primer).
It's seated 0.005" from lands for a total length of 2.874". I have no issues feeding the gun from the magazine and I'm getting 1/3 moa accuracy at 100Y. You can also find factory hornady ammo with 140 gr ELDM at a price comparable to 6.5C.
For reference I'm shooting the 260 in an AIAT with LFP.
147 gr ELDM at 2812 FPS with a 26" barrel and 42.9g IMR 4451 (Lapua brass and BR2 primer).
It's seated 0.005" from lands for a total length of 2.874". I have no issues feeding the gun from the magazine and I'm getting 1/3 moa accuracy at 100Y. You can also find factory hornady ammo with 140 gr ELDM at a price comparable to 6.5C.
I shot the 260 Remington for the last year in competition without any issues related to the cartridge. My standard deviations were right around 8-10 fps with ammo loaded on an RCBS Chargemaster. I know some 308 Winchester shooters that are getting <5fps Standard Deviation using a much more accurate powder measure.
I have 2 rifles in 260 Remington right now. One with a Kreiger barrel and another with a Lilja 3 Groove, both cut with the same reamer, and both are 26 inches. The Lilja barrel was quite a bit faster, and I was getting 2930 feet per second with 142 grain Sierra Match Kings using 43 grains of H4350.
260 Remington can go a little bit faster. Or in my case, I backed down the powder to run the same velocity as 6.5 Creedmoor with less pressure. My brass at 2850 feet per second is not stressed at all, whereas a lot of peoples Creedmoor brass looks like they were trying out proof loads.
Alpha Munitions is also making small-primer 260 Remington brass now that I would like to give a try and see if I can shrink SD's down with small rifle primers and a better powder thrower.
I have 2 rifles in 260 Remington right now. One with a Kreiger barrel and another with a Lilja 3 Groove, both cut with the same reamer, and both are 26 inches. The Lilja barrel was quite a bit faster, and I was getting 2930 feet per second with 142 grain Sierra Match Kings using 43 grains of H4350.
260 Remington can go a little bit faster. Or in my case, I backed down the powder to run the same velocity as 6.5 Creedmoor with less pressure. My brass at 2850 feet per second is not stressed at all, whereas a lot of peoples Creedmoor brass looks like they were trying out proof loads.
Alpha Munitions is also making small-primer 260 Remington brass now that I would like to give a try and see if I can shrink SD's down with small rifle primers and a better powder thrower.
Personal opinion: The .260 is dying a slow death, and one day, will be a foot note in the history of 6.5mm cartridges. Remington really screwed the pooch by not fully supporting it IMHO...
260 brass is pretty common. Lapua has made it for years, SSA used to, Hornady does as do Remington, Norma and Nosler. I am thinking of turning some M852 brass into 260 just to run out of the gas gun, but I have a bunch of 1x SSA to use for now. Heck Starline just started making 260 brass.
Your opinion is noted and respected, but I disagree. I think people are turning from 6.5 to 6mm a bit more lately but in the 6.5 realm, 260 has seen a few advances of late with Hornady releasing 260 130gr ELD-M and 129SST ammo, Prime offering 260 ammo. Starline introducing 260 brass. Black Hills now offers 140 ELD-M ammo.
Personally, I think there is growth in 260 from folks who want something not everyone else is using but still is ballistically equal.
One thing to consider, for those that do not reload, 6.5CM is generally a less expensive round to buy in factory ammo. Prime, for example, sells 6.5 for $250 per case and 260 for $315. It adds up.
It's practically the same price if you search a little.
Here's a case of match 260 for $211.56
https://ammoliquidator.com/hornady-8553-eld-match-260-remington-130-gr-case-200-total-rounds.html
Not every box of match 6.5 is going to be cheaper than 260. On average though, 6.5CM is generally less expensive.
Sorry to resurrect this thread, but for guys with .260 Rem experience, can I have just as much enjoyment and practical results for PRS type and prone long distance steel shooting? I know Creedmoor is the king in the retail department so let’s assume I would strictly hand load. Rifle would be a tikka ctr or taca1 if I don’t decide to say screw it and go straight to a GAP non typical (remember I hunt too). Let’s say I’d be happy with 139 scenars/140 Berger VLDs/130 accubonds or similar weight class. Given your experience, would you think I’d be setting myself up for any frustration and wishing I’d just went Creedmoor or is it truly flip a coin? I hope it is because part me wants to go 260 just to be different and maybe 260 AI down the road.
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I cannot think of any reason that you would want to go Creedmoor if you already shoot .260.
No difference in availability of components. I don’t know why you would even say that. Literally the only difference in components is the case and those are readily available in either flavor.
The 260 has been my choice since 2001. I have used it almost exclusively at 1000yd (exception, also some shorter distances during the 2002 SOA I matches at Whittington/Raton NM as part of Team SH).
It probably can be pushed faster, but since obtaining the replacement for the original; Savage 24" 260 Barrel, my personal SH Ghost Dancer 260 has been running an L-W .260 SAAMI 28", 1:8" barrel in 2003. Even with assistance from Woody Woodall at L-W back then, it was a major investment for me, and I adopted a different strategy for its employment. Originally clocking about 2850fps with the 142SMK, I throttled it back to a lighter load (and slower powder, H-4831SC); depending instead upon the barrel length to run it at acceptable speed; and to spare the barrel throat.
I am pleased to report that with judicious care, that barrel is still going strong in 2020. While the 260 can (and we did for Raton 2002) use 308 brass resized, it's not quite so easy because neck turning turned out to be necessary. These days, all of my brass is sourced from 7mm-08 brass because, oddly enough, it's cheaper than 260 brass; and because all that's needed is to run the 7-08 through the 260 f/l die (which is what I'd normally do with 260 brass, anyway), and it's ready to load as 260. I've tried using various chamberings' brass without first resizing the virgin cases, and got skunked a couple of times (wouldn't chamber in the middle of a match); so no more.
FWIW, I only partial neck size the 7-08brass, leaving it at the 7mm neck diameter for about the rear half of the neck length. Doesn't seem to hurt anything, and probably allows for less neck tension (and it may do some other, possibly beneficial, things too).
I see no reason to recommend the .260 over the 6.5CM unless you intend to run it at its max potential velocity, and I don't follow that strategy. Meanwhile I remain loyal to the 260 Masterrace mantra, just because I always have. I figure that no matter what speed you run; wind calling is just as important anyway.
I don't believe an running the horses till they nearly drop, and then putting them away hot and wet. Bad for the horse. Haven't burned out any barrels yet, and don't plan on it, either. I do own a spare 20" 6.5 Grendel AR barrel, but that's in case the other Grendel with the 24" barrel turns out to be in issue (it's already broken an extractor when I stupidly ran it too hot).
Greg
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Greg,
Why would you even say this? Why not recommend the .260 in the case of the questioner, who specifically wants to run the .260 to be different and wanted to know if there was a disadvantage in using the .260 versus the 6.5 Creedmoor. The answer to that question is no, there is no disadvantage.
As to only recommending the .260 if you want to run it hot, that’s a silly statement. I’ve been shooting .260 since 2010 or so and have been through many barrels in the process. By running them at modest speeds, I feel 2750-ish is a good zone for this round, I have not yet failed to get 3000+ rounds from every barrel. More than 4000 in a couple of them before they opened up past .75 Moa.
The only single advantage I can credit to 6.5 Creedmoor is the availability of numerous good Factory match loads for reasonable prices. Due to .260 being less popular, factory match loads almost always cost a few bucks more per box.
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You are probably right, Lash.
Rightly said, there is no disadvantage.
I don't shoot so much these days, might not ever shoot 1000yd again (with the nearest 1000yd venue, Ben Avery Range, being an overnight trip for me); and my estimates are that I'm likely doing around 2750 with my barrel. That works fine for me. My shooting nowadays amounts to recreational shooting, and maybe some club matches in the coming sunset years.
Life runs a tad slower on my side of 70.
I have never shot a factory round out of my 260.
Best fortune,
Greg
Rightly said, there is no disadvantage.
I don't shoot so much these days, might not ever shoot 1000yd again (with the nearest 1000yd venue, Ben Avery Range, being an overnight trip for me); and my estimates are that I'm likely doing around 2750 with my barrel. That works fine for me. My shooting nowadays amounts to recreational shooting, and maybe some club matches in the coming sunset years.
Life runs a tad slower on my side of 70.
I have never shot a factory round out of my 260.
Best fortune,
Greg
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only one of the two is called 6.5 creedmoor and there fore imbued by god to be better lol , I fart rainbows when shooting a creedmoor its zesty ! the 260 is just unflavored ice cream maybe a slight sugar taste but no rainbows or sprinkles .
So beautiful!
I love my 260.
I have a lot of history and fulfilled a lot of goals with it.
With the popularity of long oal mags it’s even better.
I only have 260's, so I'm certainly not anti 260/a CM fanboi. But...walking down the halls of my local Sportsman's or Scheels, you'd be lucky to find a set of 260 dies or brass on the shelves. If you want to talk factory ammo, last time I went Scheels had NO 260 ammo and every type of 6.5CM ammo they make. I think Sportsman's only had one flavor of 260.
Online is obviously a different story.
Always made my own...
A good Buddy, now long gone, bought me my first and only 260 dies for Christmas back in 2001; Hornady New Dimension. We traded a bunch of favors back then, we two; and probabky loaned the same $20 back and forth for years.
A good Buddy, now long gone, bought me my first and only 260 dies for Christmas back in 2001; Hornady New Dimension. We traded a bunch of favors back then, we two; and probabky loaned the same $20 back and forth for years.
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Ah, but you said components. Two different things. And who buys in a brick and mortar stores anymore?
Lapua brass is a known performer.Ah, but you said components. Two different things. And who buys in a brick and mortar stores anymore?
I been necking up Winchester 243 brass for almost a decade now.
It’s given me excellent performance and life.
Bullet and powder options are far better now than when I started playing with the 260.
Ah, but you said components. Two different things. And who buys in a brick and mortar stores anymore?
I do; brass and powder, sometimes some primers, at CAL Ranch nearby (Right, 80mi away in Sierra Vista, but this is SE AZ).
Saves time, and it's not breaking the bank, either.
I drop off the girls at Kohl's and then park across the big lot at Cal Ranch. Time I'm done; I go back, park outside Kohl's, and read my Kindle Oasis until they come back out.
Works...
BTW, I am getting to like Starline (from Midway) brass, too.
Greg
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Thank you all for the responses. This is all for expectation management.
It’s my understanding that at some point you run into mag length issues with certain projectiles with the 260. Where is sort of the bullet weight red line for the 260? If there’s not general red line, are there certain projectiles that are significantly limiting due to COAL? Let’s assume I want to stay within mag dimensions and not single feed.
Also, is brass trimming more of an issue with 260 over CM? I would imagine it would grow more due to the shoulder angle, but it shouldn’t be any more than 308 right?
It’s my understanding that at some point you run into mag length issues with certain projectiles with the 260. Where is sort of the bullet weight red line for the 260? If there’s not general red line, are there certain projectiles that are significantly limiting due to COAL? Let’s assume I want to stay within mag dimensions and not single feed.
Also, is brass trimming more of an issue with 260 over CM? I would imagine it would grow more due to the shoulder angle, but it shouldn’t be any more than 308 right?
Yes COAL can be an issue with a 260. I run 142 smk .010” off the lands in a CBI match 260 barrel/savage action/AICS mags. No issues with mag feeding.
Lapua brass/142smk/CCI BR2/42.5 Gr H4350.
I’m very particular and measure every piece of brass after sizing. Lee collet die, .002” shoulder bump every few firings.
2.025” is what I run for case Length trimmed. In 100 pieces of brass I’ll get maybe 5 that measure .001-.002” over that. I keep them trimmed 2.025” with the others. Think I got 3-4 firings on the brass before I had to trim anything
This thread is BULLSHIT!
If the OP wants to be different, then he needs to shoot a 6.5x55, dammit!!!
If the OP wants to be different, then he needs to shoot a 6.5x55, dammit!!!
One hack for the seating length is to load the Speer 140gr Gold Dot. Load to magazine length. Midway. I also run the 120gr Gold Dots in my 6.5 Grendel.
The bullet has a rebated base, which allows for some of the advantage of a boat tail, but significantly reduces case intrusion; 0.17" to be precise at the same OAL vs the 143 ELD-X.
It has respectable, not world beating, BC, is affordable, is reportedly quite accurate, and has excellent terminal performance to boot.
I run W-748 in the 20" Grendel, and H-4831SC in the 28" 260. Speer Rifle Load Data.
Hornady 264 143 ELD-X, 1.44" Length, .625 BC.
Speer 264 140gr Gold Dot 1.270" length, .571 BC. No Plastic Tip, it has a Protected Soft Point.
I shoot it at 4350 ft ASL, 2750fps (very conservative est) MV. Adjusted G1 .789, 1322fps at 1400yd, 47 MOA drop (Pejsa). Full value 10 MPH wind, 8.1 MOA drift, or about 2-3 Mils.
I'll take it...
Trimming: Little Crow Gun Works Trimmer 2, .260 Trim Chamber. Resize first, trim, then Debur and Chamfer. RCBS Trim Mate Case Prep Center. Took me 25 years to get around to proper case time and prep. Wasted time measured in months. RCBS Chargemaster Lite, glass touch panel outlasts membrane switch programming pads. Looks like a lotta bucks; but at may age, who's got the time to do it all manually?
Greg
The bullet has a rebated base, which allows for some of the advantage of a boat tail, but significantly reduces case intrusion; 0.17" to be precise at the same OAL vs the 143 ELD-X.
It has respectable, not world beating, BC, is affordable, is reportedly quite accurate, and has excellent terminal performance to boot.
I run W-748 in the 20" Grendel, and H-4831SC in the 28" 260. Speer Rifle Load Data.
Hornady 264 143 ELD-X, 1.44" Length, .625 BC.
Speer 264 140gr Gold Dot 1.270" length, .571 BC. No Plastic Tip, it has a Protected Soft Point.
I shoot it at 4350 ft ASL, 2750fps (very conservative est) MV. Adjusted G1 .789, 1322fps at 1400yd, 47 MOA drop (Pejsa). Full value 10 MPH wind, 8.1 MOA drift, or about 2-3 Mils.
I'll take it...
Trimming: Little Crow Gun Works Trimmer 2, .260 Trim Chamber. Resize first, trim, then Debur and Chamfer. RCBS Trim Mate Case Prep Center. Took me 25 years to get around to proper case time and prep. Wasted time measured in months. RCBS Chargemaster Lite, glass touch panel outlasts membrane switch programming pads. Looks like a lotta bucks; but at may age, who's got the time to do it all manually?
Greg
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I went with the 260 instead of 6.5CM.
It was pretty easy decision. I wanted to use Lapua brass and I have an AIAT with a large firing pin. Lapua only makes the 6.5CM brass for small primers. I didn't want to modify my rifle and there was a risk of pierce primer with 6.5 CM Lapua brass. That's why I went with the 260.
It was pretty easy decision. I wanted to use Lapua brass and I have an AIAT with a large firing pin. Lapua only makes the 6.5CM brass for small primers. I didn't want to modify my rifle and there was a risk of pierce primer with 6.5 CM Lapua brass. That's why I went with the 260.
