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Gunsmithing .30-06 barrel advice (length/twist)
- Thread starter paramil
- Start date
That will do the job, that is not far off from the throat of a Serengeti. If memory serves the neck of the Serengeti is .340 so this chamber will be really close.
The slope of the lands was another thing the Serengeti had going for it but that angle escapes me.
I am not calling BS here but RL22 is so slow.. it needs a lot of tube to burn completely to give you good velocity. If you said you were getting that velocity out of RL 17 or 19 I'd pass over that comment but RL22?? You have to be compressing the hell out of that charge and I bet a fair bit of it is ending up on the grass in front of the barrel.
Just exactly what weight are you using that is giving you 2800 fps with RL22 in a a 22 inch barrel? When I use H4350 with 190's in a 28" I am lucky to get 2900 without pushing pressure limits and 4350 is a lot faster than RL22....
This is a realistic load with RL22 out od a 22" barrel: Load 11504 detail in caliber .30-06 Springfield
And this is what you get with a 26" barrel: Load 8267 detail in caliber .30-06 Springfield
Both of those loads correspond with previous work I have done when I was testing RL22.
I will back track on my earlier statement about a 30-06 performing the same as a .308 in a 22" barrel... There is a reasonable difference, my statement was filled with a serving of sarcasm... My point was, there is so much of a performance difference between a "short" barrel and a long one, that I simply can not believe that someone would want to sacrifice that performance to save about a pound of weight.
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I use 60 grains of RL22 in a Winchester case and 61 in a Hornady because it has a larger volume than Winny. I shoot with a can 99.0% of the time so my adapter is always dirty. I only shot a few rounds with the can off in order to track a shift, I don't recall seeing any residue on the adapter. My comes up confirm my velocity and my shooting partners all comment on how flat shooting my rounds are compared to their .308s. I know I was shooting at least 5 minutes flatter than them at 730 yards the last time we were out together. Maybe I got a really good barrel, I dunno but I'm not complaining...
OK here is where I call foul... If you are shooting suppressed than you are using the wrong powder for sure. You will have powder burning in the suppressor because you will not have burned up all that RL22 in a 22 inch barrel. Also, I have never found a Hornady case that was lighter than Winchester. Winchester brass is notoriously the king of thin brass in a 30-06. Too much of what you are saying is just a bit off the track for me to believe it.
The email yesterday was to your personal account, but I forwarded the information as a Sniper's Hide PM this morning.
Believe it or not but my numbers don't lie, chrony,turrets or the scale. If my numbers were off I don't think I emwiuld be able to hit shit at a lil distance. I had a whiz wheel made of this data and when I went out to 1075 the comes ups and windsge was dead on. So if my numbers are skewed explain how am I still making hits?
Sorry forthe typos but I am on a IPod. I have been loading since '06 and have used mostly Hornady brass for my .308s as I get to keep what we fire at work. I noticed within the last year or year and a half Hornady made some changes to their .308 brass. The new stuff is heavier and has crimped primers. I have not been working with the '06 long at all, just since last Sept when I had it built. I have 3 boxes (150 pieces) of Hornady '06 brass. Two boxes was bought from the same store. When I ran out of Winchester brass I kept the 60 grain charge and I could visually see it was not the same volume. So I weighed the cases, only about three or four to confirm it wasn't just a single case that was light but these Hornady cases that I have are lighter than Winny. I just purchased 6 more boxes of Hornady from Brownells because they were offering free shipping I am curious to see if the weigh the same as what I have. Also IIRC Shane was getting 2850 or so from his 22.5 inch barrel using RL22, I think he was using moly though. Anyway I'll continue to do what I have been doing because it's working even though you think I am mistaken or whatever. Good day sir....
I think you guys should each bring your 30-06 rig and settle this with a dualing tree at 1000 yds.
Follow up: Criterion sent me the link to the reamer print they use for their 30-06 chambering (they follow the SAAMI spec). Here it is: http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Rifle/30-06%20Springfield.pdf
For reference, here is a link to an article where at the bottom you can see the PTG reamer print: The Rifleman's Journal: Cartridges: The Logical .30-06
Thoughts anyone?
For reference, here is a link to an article where at the bottom you can see the PTG reamer print: The Rifleman's Journal: Cartridges: The Logical .30-06
Thoughts anyone?
The biggest difference between the Serengeti design and the SAMMI Spec is the lead and the throat. The SAMMI Drawing has the full rifling at 3.7442 and the Serengeti is at about 2.817 to .300. The lead of the SAMMI Spec starts at .3106 and slopes to the barrel diameter and the Serengeti as at .3085 from the start. That WILL affect accuracy. The Serengeti chamber will provide better accuracy because that tighter lead will cure a lot of run-out issues.
Keep in mind, there never was a consideration in the original SAMMI Spec for shooting a 190+ grain bullet. Max COAL of the cartridge spec was 3.34". My longest COAL in the Serengetti is 3.49"
If the reamer Criterion is going to use is based on the SAMMI Spec, you are going to have a hard time shooting heavy bullets unless you seat them deep, problem with this is, you loose valuable case capacity and that will kill you if you want to shoot as far as the 30-06 is capable of shooting. You are going to loose some velocity because of the lost capacity.
When I load 215 Hybrids, the boat tail to bullet baring surface transition is seated exactly at the neck to shoulder transition of the case. Only the boat tail extends into the case. This (to me) is the optimum seating depth and really helps me with concentricity. (I like having the entire neck length on the barring surface of a bullet). You will not be able to do that in a SAMMI spec chamber with that heavy of a bullet.
When I shoot 190 VLD's the seating depth is 3.39", and 190 SMK's max COAL to put them in the lands is 3.37 I believe.. I don't have my notes in front of me and I don't shoot SMK's so I could be off a little. With a SAMMI Spec chamber, you will be seating 190's SMK somewhere around that original SAAMI COAL and that will push them into the case past the neck/shoulder transition. Is it a big deal? Depends, 2-3 grains of powder that you are going to loose can equal 100-150 fps in velocity. All because of how the chamber was cut.
Another thing is brass life. I have never seen a SAMMI chamber that was cut with the least amount of head space/radial clearance you can get away with. Bit of extra head space REALLY opens up the chamber. You will see this additional diameter the first round you fire and how big the bulge is at the web of the case. My guess is it wont be very tight like a Serengeti chamber typically is and you will need to keep your eye on the brass and case/head separations when you get up to 4-8 reloads. I have brass fired in my Serengeti that is on its 14th reload and the only thing that ever kills my brass is the primer pockets getting sloppy, nothing to do with the actual case wall. Its really depressing tossing a Lapua case when the only thing killing it is a loose primer pocket... but I rather do that than have to extract a case that separated from the head when I am on the firing line.
My other concern is, you are getting a barrel sent to you with a cut chamber and you are going to fit that to your action.... So how is the head space calculated? My gunsmith makes the final chamber cut based on the action measurements. I am not sure what Criterion does but if they don't have your action... then how are you going to get a chamber set with the optimum head space?
It really is amazing how the difference a few thousandths of an inch here and there can effect accuracy, brass life, and projectile options....
Keep in mind, there never was a consideration in the original SAMMI Spec for shooting a 190+ grain bullet. Max COAL of the cartridge spec was 3.34". My longest COAL in the Serengetti is 3.49"
If the reamer Criterion is going to use is based on the SAMMI Spec, you are going to have a hard time shooting heavy bullets unless you seat them deep, problem with this is, you loose valuable case capacity and that will kill you if you want to shoot as far as the 30-06 is capable of shooting. You are going to loose some velocity because of the lost capacity.
When I load 215 Hybrids, the boat tail to bullet baring surface transition is seated exactly at the neck to shoulder transition of the case. Only the boat tail extends into the case. This (to me) is the optimum seating depth and really helps me with concentricity. (I like having the entire neck length on the barring surface of a bullet). You will not be able to do that in a SAMMI spec chamber with that heavy of a bullet.
When I shoot 190 VLD's the seating depth is 3.39", and 190 SMK's max COAL to put them in the lands is 3.37 I believe.. I don't have my notes in front of me and I don't shoot SMK's so I could be off a little. With a SAMMI Spec chamber, you will be seating 190's SMK somewhere around that original SAAMI COAL and that will push them into the case past the neck/shoulder transition. Is it a big deal? Depends, 2-3 grains of powder that you are going to loose can equal 100-150 fps in velocity. All because of how the chamber was cut.
Another thing is brass life. I have never seen a SAMMI chamber that was cut with the least amount of head space/radial clearance you can get away with. Bit of extra head space REALLY opens up the chamber. You will see this additional diameter the first round you fire and how big the bulge is at the web of the case. My guess is it wont be very tight like a Serengeti chamber typically is and you will need to keep your eye on the brass and case/head separations when you get up to 4-8 reloads. I have brass fired in my Serengeti that is on its 14th reload and the only thing that ever kills my brass is the primer pockets getting sloppy, nothing to do with the actual case wall. Its really depressing tossing a Lapua case when the only thing killing it is a loose primer pocket... but I rather do that than have to extract a case that separated from the head when I am on the firing line.
My other concern is, you are getting a barrel sent to you with a cut chamber and you are going to fit that to your action.... So how is the head space calculated? My gunsmith makes the final chamber cut based on the action measurements. I am not sure what Criterion does but if they don't have your action... then how are you going to get a chamber set with the optimum head space?
It really is amazing how the difference a few thousandths of an inch here and there can effect accuracy, brass life, and projectile options....
I sent Notorious a PM but I 'll repeat my suggestion here for all interested.
I would not accept the standard 30-06 chamber.
1. Ask criterion if they r willing to cut the chamber with a Serengeti reamer that you'll supply.
2. If criterion is ok with this, purchase the reamer from PTG & send it to criterion.
3. If they r unwilling to do this, ask them to short chamber the barrel and have a competent gunsmith finish chamber with the Serengeti reamer.
I know this seems like a lot of coordination but you'll b much happier in the end.
Criterion is an outstanding company. I'm sure they'll work with you.
I would not accept the standard 30-06 chamber.
1. Ask criterion if they r willing to cut the chamber with a Serengeti reamer that you'll supply.
2. If criterion is ok with this, purchase the reamer from PTG & send it to criterion.
3. If they r unwilling to do this, ask them to short chamber the barrel and have a competent gunsmith finish chamber with the Serengeti reamer.
I know this seems like a lot of coordination but you'll b much happier in the end.
Criterion is an outstanding company. I'm sure they'll work with you.
If PTG does not have the reamer on the shelf, there will be a 6-8 week wait. I am waiting on a 300WM reamer that was ordered a month ago and I recently ordered a 338 custom reamer that took 6 weeks, had a bad grind, had to be sent back, and received it 3 weeks later.
I like PTG but they are so busy that their customer service is in the toilet right now and if that 338 reamer I received from them weeks ago is anything to gauge their current reamer quality by, look out... It was absolute crap. Their current production reamers need to be thoroughly inspected before use.
My Serengeti reamer I got from them last year was OK... left a few fine groves in the chamber because of a rough grind but they worked themselves out on the second barrel I had cut.. Getting ready to do a third so should be GTG.
If you want a Serengeti chamber, consider sending your criterion barrel to Woody at Xring accuracy and I will let him use my reamer in your barrel for $40 plus whatever he charges for clambering. This will save you over $100 on buying one you may never use again. If you send him your action, he will get it all set up right but you need to ask him about his pricing for that. He has a good reputation on the hide and the work he has done for me has always been absolutely top notch.
Well, there was this muzzle brake issue... (Just jerking Woody's chain)
My guess is you are trying to do this on the cheap otherwise you would be getting your action trued and the chamber cut to your action dimensions... if you plan to get a barrel and screw it on yourself... I don't know that I would even bother getting a Serengeti chamber because you wont be happy with it in the end. It really needs to be done right or just go with the SAMMI chamber and make it work. Match barrels are NOT plug and play.
I like PTG but they are so busy that their customer service is in the toilet right now and if that 338 reamer I received from them weeks ago is anything to gauge their current reamer quality by, look out... It was absolute crap. Their current production reamers need to be thoroughly inspected before use.
My Serengeti reamer I got from them last year was OK... left a few fine groves in the chamber because of a rough grind but they worked themselves out on the second barrel I had cut.. Getting ready to do a third so should be GTG.
If you want a Serengeti chamber, consider sending your criterion barrel to Woody at Xring accuracy and I will let him use my reamer in your barrel for $40 plus whatever he charges for clambering. This will save you over $100 on buying one you may never use again. If you send him your action, he will get it all set up right but you need to ask him about his pricing for that. He has a good reputation on the hide and the work he has done for me has always been absolutely top notch.
Well, there was this muzzle brake issue... (Just jerking Woody's chain)
My guess is you are trying to do this on the cheap otherwise you would be getting your action trued and the chamber cut to your action dimensions... if you plan to get a barrel and screw it on yourself... I don't know that I would even bother getting a Serengeti chamber because you wont be happy with it in the end. It really needs to be done right or just go with the SAMMI chamber and make it work. Match barrels are NOT plug and play.
Paramil, thanks for starting this thread.
You guys got my attention. I don't want to hijack, but I'm afraid that if I start my own thread, these knowledgible people may not see it and contribute. I've read this thread over and over and it makes sense. But I do have one question...
Can a contour too thin, say like a Shilen Select Match #2 contour, have some sort of "whip" or stability (consistency) problem at 26" - 30"? 10 twist of course... I am in the planning stages for a light weight 30-06 build for hunting deer sized game and larger while wearing out some boot leather. I would like to be able to load 180 TTSX or some heavy Bergers when roaming in bear country (our party will have a 45-70 and 375 Ruger available if needed,) so the 10 twist longer barrel make sense. But will a longer pencil thin barrel present a new set of problems???
RHunter... I would love to send my Shilen to Woody at X-ring to cut the chamber with your Serengeti. I would only do so after humbly requesting permission and gracously receiving permission.
Oh yea... Rifle is a Sako 75 Finnlight, which currently has a 22 1/2" fluted 11 twist barrel. You guys got me thinking that there wouldn't be too much of an advantage of going with the longer action 30 caliber over my 308 win.
I know... I know... I too have that little voice in my head telling me to leave a nice Sako alone and get a Rem action to do this on.
Thanks all,
Bill
You guys got my attention. I don't want to hijack, but I'm afraid that if I start my own thread, these knowledgible people may not see it and contribute. I've read this thread over and over and it makes sense. But I do have one question...
Can a contour too thin, say like a Shilen Select Match #2 contour, have some sort of "whip" or stability (consistency) problem at 26" - 30"? 10 twist of course... I am in the planning stages for a light weight 30-06 build for hunting deer sized game and larger while wearing out some boot leather. I would like to be able to load 180 TTSX or some heavy Bergers when roaming in bear country (our party will have a 45-70 and 375 Ruger available if needed,) so the 10 twist longer barrel make sense. But will a longer pencil thin barrel present a new set of problems???
RHunter... I would love to send my Shilen to Woody at X-ring to cut the chamber with your Serengeti. I would only do so after humbly requesting permission and gracously receiving permission.
Oh yea... Rifle is a Sako 75 Finnlight, which currently has a 22 1/2" fluted 11 twist barrel. You guys got me thinking that there wouldn't be too much of an advantage of going with the longer action 30 caliber over my 308 win.
I know... I know... I too have that little voice in my head telling me to leave a nice Sako alone and get a Rem action to do this on.
Thanks all,
Bill
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Sounds like I'll need to do some characterization with bullet weight/powder/seating depth....which I planned on doing anyways. I guess the worse case scenario is that I max out at 180-185 grain bullets....maybe 190 grains with a compressed load if I really want to do that. That's ok. I think I mentioned it on an earlier post...the objective of this rifle is to increase my skills in the long range rifle game and will double as a hunting rifle. For hunting 180 grain is more than enough here (central, TX); for precision rifle practice (i.e. fundamentals, wind calls, developing consistency in rifle cleaning/maintenance, etc.) I'm ok with maxing out at 180 grain. I always intended to build a true "precision rifle" at a later date (in a different caliber) to game with.
From many previous posts I think we all agreed that I wouldn't get full powder burn from a 24" barrel so is dropping 2-3 grains really relevant if I'm throwing 1-4 grains out the front of the barrel. I'm speculating here, I really have no proof that I would be losing that much powder. Maybe one of you with more experience could answer this.
Good point. I'll pay close attention for case/head separations at load #4.
How does one recommend fitting the barrel to the action? I intended to use a 30-06 Clymer go gauge to set the headspace. Do you have a recommendation of how much to back the barrel off the go gauge or should it be tightened right to the gauge? I assume I would need to know the exact length of the gauge and I don't have it in my hands yet, it's en route to me now.
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I appreciate the offer. I will pass this time. If I find that I have some serious accuracy issues then I'll take a serious look at re-cutting the chamber with a Serengeti reamer.
I wouldn't really say I'm trying to do this on the cheap. I'm going this route for two main reasons:
1) This is my first bolt gun and I'm working through each of the modules/parts to see the incremental improvement in accuracy. Once again, I'm an engineer with a strong base in applied statistics, so for me a lot of the fun is making controlled changes, collecting data, analyzing the data and making a decision based on that data. If and when I'm ready to get serious about precision rifle gaming then I'll just buy a Surgeon/Stiller/Lawton/etc. action and have the rest of the rifle built.
2) I wanted to learn about bolt guns and the precision game and at the same time work with my hands a bit. Sending the rifle off to someone every time I need something done takes a lot of the fun out of it for me.
Notorious,
I have another 30-06 (actually i have 5) with a 22" barrel i hope to be testing this weekend.
Its an AR-based semi-auto rifle (BN-36).
I will be testing it with H-4350 & 185gr Berger Juggernauts.
Powder is from same lot as I used in my Savage -06 bolt gun, so i should have an indicative velocity loss of going from a 26" to 22" barrel.
I think i may have loaded all the rounds at mag-length (3.25") but i'll confirm this when i get home.
I'll be posting results in the reloading section and the "loads for 30-06" thread in the reloading depot.
I have another 30-06 (actually i have 5) with a 22" barrel i hope to be testing this weekend.
Its an AR-based semi-auto rifle (BN-36).
I will be testing it with H-4350 & 185gr Berger Juggernauts.
Powder is from same lot as I used in my Savage -06 bolt gun, so i should have an indicative velocity loss of going from a 26" to 22" barrel.
I think i may have loaded all the rounds at mag-length (3.25") but i'll confirm this when i get home.
I'll be posting results in the reloading section and the "loads for 30-06" thread in the reloading depot.
A Noreen BN-36...nice! I love my Garands but I have to admit the BN-36 is sick.
Please add link back in this thread to your testing results. Thanks.
OK, you are one of those...
You REALLY have no clue what the hell you are doing so you need to SERIOUSLY swallow a bit of your pride, humble yourself and pay attention. I can appreciate this hands on mentality, I am the same way, but unless you have a lathe and know how to use it, you are going about this the wrong way and you are likely going to end up with a tomato stake when you are done.
You cant adjust the barrel to get the right headspace by how far you screw it on. The barrel really needs to be machined to what the action dimensions are. I don't recall what action you have but assuming it is something like a Remington 700, that barrel needs to be screwed on tight to the recoil lug and that recoil lug needs to be tight to the action. By tight, I mean tight. No gap. No backing it of a quarter turn and holding it in place with red loctite. And then when your bolt is locked in the lugs you want that distance from the bolt face to the head space to be within a few thousands of an inch at worst (bigger than a 30-06 round). This is made easy by go/no go gauges. If you plan to change the thickness of the recoil lug well that changes your chamber dimensions as well. When you get a plug and play barrel, the barrel you will get will be close to what you want if everything is factory spec but the gun you end up with will be no better than the gun you bought off the shelf and it will most likely be wrong and require some other tooling to be made right.
This is not an exercise of drill a hole in this piece of steel, screw it on an action and put a bullet in it. There are some very tight tolerances at work here and if you don't do it right the bullet wont chamber or you will have so much head space you have a case rupture the first time you pull the trigger. Case ruptures are nasty business.
I can see it clearly now... In the end what you will end up doing is sending the gun to a gunsmith that has a lathe, he will cut a couple threads off the barrel and re-chamber it and assemble it the way it should have been done in the first place. If you don't know what you are doing and you are playing with something that can blow up and kill you, you need to let someone who does know what the hell is going on do the work for your safety and the safety of those around you. Building a bolt action is not that difficult but you do need to be a damn good machinist to be able to do it correctly.
Woody made an appearance in this thread in pot #28, I believe his phone number is in his signature or you can send him a PM, talk to him if he an help you out and if you end up sending your rifle to him for a re-barrel I will let him know to add $40 to your bill for the reamer wear and tear. It has only been used twice and woody has it for a re-barrel job he is going to do for me in the next week or two. So you will get either the 3rd or 4th cut on it depending if you get your gun to him before I do. Woody's work is clean and good quality so you will be happy with what he does. I found him on the hide and he has built 3 guns for me since and I have been happy with the accuracy of all of them.
You are partially correct. I don't know what I'm doing because I haven't learned how to do it yet. This isn't a matter of pride. The barrel is a Savage pre-fit for a Savage long action. The main advantage of the Savage platform is the semi-switch barrel capability. You're telling me that magically, and by luck alone, the high majority of people that own Savage rifles and have swapped barrels and not blown themselves up? I've seen some pretty accurate Savages which have used Savage pre-fit barrels. If you truly believe that you better get over to savageshooters.com and let all of them know that they've been going about this the wrong way, I'm sure you'll be well received.
Note, a new NSS recoil lug and barrel nut will be installed with the barrel.
Maybe, but maybe not. I'm ok either way. If at any point I doubt the safety of what I'm doing then I'll stop and seek a smith.
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That's how your post came across. Was that because you thought I was swapping barrels on a Rem action?
I feel like this is rhetoric but.....do you need a machinist or gun smith to swap a savage barrel?
I started with a 26.5" barrel (Douglas 1/10, #7). With moly'd 208s I was getting 2800 fps with 60 grains RL22, in Win brass.
When I cut the barrel back to 22.5", my velocity dropped to 2720 fps.
I did do some informal pressure testing at 22.5" to see how close I was to the top. I ended up as high as 64.0gr RL22, and I recall velocity was around 2840 fps or so, but I was also seeing some gas leakage around the primer. I had no intention of ever running it that hot, I just wanted to know how far I was from those kind of pressures. Having done that, I feel very comfortable at 60.0gr/2720 fps.
Did you read my post?
Any time you are having a new barrel made you should have a gunsmith do the fitting and especially a gunsmith experienced with doing the machine work on barrels.
Every bolt action is a semi swap. Two of my 30-06's began their life as another rifle that was purchased specifically for the purpose of using only the action in the build of a new gun.
I was talking about 190s, I seem to remember in either one of our PMs or threads when I was getting ready for the build The 208 AMAXs were hard to get so I had made chamber cut around the 190's.
OK, 190 SMKs.
That's a different story then. With 26.5" bbl, I was at 2920 fps, via moly, and 62.0gr RL22, in Norma brass, with a Fed 210 primer.
No pressure signs at all, in fact my necks were still a bit sooty.
That's a different story then. With 26.5" bbl, I was at 2920 fps, via moly, and 62.0gr RL22, in Norma brass, with a Fed 210 primer.
No pressure signs at all, in fact my necks were still a bit sooty.
If I won't have access to the PTG Serengeti, what are your opinions on this match chambering compared to the SAAMI spec chambering: [URL=http://s1371.photobucket.com/user/NotoriousAPP/media/30-06SpringfieldMatchPrint-PTG_zps4b77df45.jpg.html]
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Thanks Hunter for the kind words. For precision shooting as stated above, barrels needs to be cut to fit the action and chambering done with zero shenanigans. I will restate that to get the best performance, a longer barrel is the choice. The venerable 30.06 is overlooked in todays market as there are so many options. I call it caliber of the month club. The 30.06 if tuned with the right ammo will shoot. The extra length gives you the ability to use the powder and to tune. Built many identical rifles for one customer and they all need some tweaking. Same barrels, same reamer, same actions, etc. Comes down to tweaking what each rifle likes
I have a couple dozen rifles in 308, 30-06, or 300WM.
I think all of them are 10" twist, but some might not be.
I have a couple of barrels on order right now [18 weeks is a long time] that are 13" ratchet.
I would bet money I will not be able to tell the difference.
I think all of them are 10" twist, but some might not be.
I have a couple of barrels on order right now [18 weeks is a long time] that are 13" ratchet.
I would bet money I will not be able to tell the difference.
If I won't have access to the PTG Serengeti, what are your opinions on this match chambering compared to the SAAMI spec chambering: [URL=http://s1371.photobucket.com/user/NotoriousAPP/media/30-06SpringfieldMatchPrint-PTG_zps4b77df45.jpg.html]
That drawing is also from PTG. It looks like it could have been the basis for the Serengeti reamer. A lot of the critical dimensions are the same. The principal difference i see is that it has a shorter throat than the Serengeti reamer...this basically could be a serrengeti reamer that does not accommodate the heavier modern match bullet.
Notorious,
RHunter has offered you the use of this PTG reamer...why dont you take him up on his offer?
Also, if you are gonna go to PTG, why not insist on the Serengeti reamer anyway?
RHunter has offered you the use of this PTG reamer...why dont you take him up on his offer?
Also, if you are gonna go to PTG, why not insist on the Serengeti reamer anyway?
I'm going the pre-fit route this time around. My options were Shilen and Criterion. Criterion only offers the SAAMI reamer, Shilen offers the SAAMI and the Match (print above) reamer. Just weighing my options. If either had the Serengeti reamer then I would have gone that route. I am very grateful to RHunter for being so generous with his reamer.
As a follow up to previous posts I did contact four gunsmiths regarding the barrel chambering and fitting, one was local and I have good experience with them, two were local and highly recommended, one was out of state and also highly recommended from a couple different sources; I also listened to an interview of the out of state gunsmith, he sounded as honest and logical as they come.
The one local gunsmith I've used and know there work, he's so busy they've closed their list for 6 months until they clear some orders off the list.
The second local smith who's been in the business for > 20 years and was recommended on other forums (6mmbr.com, accurateshooter,com) for bolt gun work, I called him and he recommended just going with a Savage prefit barrel.
The third local smith who's been in the business for a while and started as a competitive precision rifle shooter never returned my phone calls.
The smith that's out of state had a long discussion with me about his experience with custom barrels vs. pre-fits and recommended going the pre-fit route this time around. His main concern was that I'm only buying the opportunity to potentially get a better barrel that might take me from 0.5 MOA to 0.25MOA. He's seen barrels from every manufacturer with defects and limited precision, custom barrels or otherwise. Keep in mind that I started the conversation by telling him I was interested in sending him a barrel blank to have him chamber and fit the barrel to the action. Aside from the fact that I may spend a lot more money and get no return, him and I agreed that I should focus on making myself a sub 0.5 MOA shooter on a less expensive (but high quality) barrel before I spend the dollars on a more expensive custom option; this was my opinion from the start.
The one local gunsmith I've used and know there work, he's so busy they've closed their list for 6 months until they clear some orders off the list.
The second local smith who's been in the business for > 20 years and was recommended on other forums (6mmbr.com, accurateshooter,com) for bolt gun work, I called him and he recommended just going with a Savage prefit barrel.
The third local smith who's been in the business for a while and started as a competitive precision rifle shooter never returned my phone calls.
The smith that's out of state had a long discussion with me about his experience with custom barrels vs. pre-fits and recommended going the pre-fit route this time around. His main concern was that I'm only buying the opportunity to potentially get a better barrel that might take me from 0.5 MOA to 0.25MOA. He's seen barrels from every manufacturer with defects and limited precision, custom barrels or otherwise. Keep in mind that I started the conversation by telling him I was interested in sending him a barrel blank to have him chamber and fit the barrel to the action. Aside from the fact that I may spend a lot more money and get no return, him and I agreed that I should focus on making myself a sub 0.5 MOA shooter on a less expensive (but high quality) barrel before I spend the dollars on a more expensive custom option; this was my opinion from the start.
The price difference between custom and prefit is not that great but the guarantee is. If the smith is not truing the action the the cost of chambering a barrel really is not that great but you will end up with a "perfect" fit (length wise anyway), centered is another story. So your arguments and reasoning to someone that knows better really are not very sound. I get the feeling you are forcing yourself to believe this prefit will be all you imagine it will be.. But to those of us that know better... we read and just shake our heads in disbelief. What astonishes me is, you are settling for a barrel that will not be what you want it to be only so you have the joy of screwing the barrel to the action...
All I can say is, I hope you get lucky otherwise you are going to be awfully disappointed you did not take the sincere advice of the guys in here that know what the hell is going on.
To each his own. I personally would not get a prefit barrel *ever* because a custom barrel is MILES better than a prefit. I have found that a gunsmiths advice is only as good as his ability. There are gunsmiths that do not do machine work and they all seem to love a prefit, but the gunsmiths that do machine work, and do it well, absolutely cant stand a prefit because they are never machined perfectly to that action (and they probably get annoyed fixing so many of them). This is the difference between someone that has pride in building the most accurate rifle possible and someone that does not really give a fuck as long as the customer pays the bill.
YOU ARE going to pay for it one way or another, either in the cost of the barrel, or the wear and tear on your brass from a sloppy chamber/action match. But if you shoot crap range brass then it wont matter but if you shoot Lapua brass like I do, you want that $1 per case investment to give you the greatest return possible before you sell the cases for .85 a pound at the local scrap yard.
I also like to have a 30-06 that will ring steel all day long at 1000 yards, the extra accuracy you get out of a well built rifle makes for some very satisfying days at the range. A sub-par rifle leaves you wanting another one that makes the sport more enjoyable. Rifles that don't shoot that well are very frustrating in the hands of a good shooter.
Reminds me of a recent trip where I was helping a buddy come up with a good load for his rifle... He is a factory rifle shooter and does not reload and buys the cheapest ammo possible. Not surprising that he does not really enjoy shooting that much...
The story goes like this...
He has a nice Remington 700, forget the model, all he did when the subject of shooting came up was bitch about how poorly it shot.. I convinced him to meet me at the range one Sunday and I loaded up a string of 7 loads to find what his rifle liked and load number 5 was sub MOA... you would think he found God when you saw how happy he was... When we were done shooting my ammo, he had a few boxes of Winchester he wanted to blow through so I could reload the brass for him... I did not bring any guns that day, was there to just help him, so he says to me, why don't you take a couple shots.
I took 3 shots and put the damn thing down.. Nothing worse than shooting a rifle that does not hit what you are aiming at... In this case it was due to the ammo.. but the feeling is the same. When you are used to shooting .5 MOA groups with nothing but a bipod and you get a rifle in your hand that will not shoot that well, there is ZERO enjoyment.
Staving off that feeling alone is worth me paying a good gunsmith the money to build me a good rifle and as long as I do my job with the ammo, every day at the range will be a good one.
All I can say is, I hope you get lucky otherwise you are going to be awfully disappointed you did not take the sincere advice of the guys in here that know what the hell is going on.
To each his own. I personally would not get a prefit barrel *ever* because a custom barrel is MILES better than a prefit. I have found that a gunsmiths advice is only as good as his ability. There are gunsmiths that do not do machine work and they all seem to love a prefit, but the gunsmiths that do machine work, and do it well, absolutely cant stand a prefit because they are never machined perfectly to that action (and they probably get annoyed fixing so many of them). This is the difference between someone that has pride in building the most accurate rifle possible and someone that does not really give a fuck as long as the customer pays the bill.
YOU ARE going to pay for it one way or another, either in the cost of the barrel, or the wear and tear on your brass from a sloppy chamber/action match. But if you shoot crap range brass then it wont matter but if you shoot Lapua brass like I do, you want that $1 per case investment to give you the greatest return possible before you sell the cases for .85 a pound at the local scrap yard.
I also like to have a 30-06 that will ring steel all day long at 1000 yards, the extra accuracy you get out of a well built rifle makes for some very satisfying days at the range. A sub-par rifle leaves you wanting another one that makes the sport more enjoyable. Rifles that don't shoot that well are very frustrating in the hands of a good shooter.
Reminds me of a recent trip where I was helping a buddy come up with a good load for his rifle... He is a factory rifle shooter and does not reload and buys the cheapest ammo possible. Not surprising that he does not really enjoy shooting that much...
The story goes like this...
He has a nice Remington 700, forget the model, all he did when the subject of shooting came up was bitch about how poorly it shot.. I convinced him to meet me at the range one Sunday and I loaded up a string of 7 loads to find what his rifle liked and load number 5 was sub MOA... you would think he found God when you saw how happy he was... When we were done shooting my ammo, he had a few boxes of Winchester he wanted to blow through so I could reload the brass for him... I did not bring any guns that day, was there to just help him, so he says to me, why don't you take a couple shots.
I took 3 shots and put the damn thing down.. Nothing worse than shooting a rifle that does not hit what you are aiming at... In this case it was due to the ammo.. but the feeling is the same. When you are used to shooting .5 MOA groups with nothing but a bipod and you get a rifle in your hand that will not shoot that well, there is ZERO enjoyment.
Staving off that feeling alone is worth me paying a good gunsmith the money to build me a good rifle and as long as I do my job with the ammo, every day at the range will be a good one.
When I use this twist rate calculator, I can get some great groups at an SG of 0.8, but some keyholing too.
I just get great groups at 0.97.
So the guide is a little conservative
http://www.bergerbullets.com/litz/TwistRuleAltWP.php
I just get great groups at 0.97.
So the guide is a little conservative
http://www.bergerbullets.com/litz/TwistRuleAltWP.php
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It sounds like we agree, in regards to precisions the pre-fit may not be as good as a custom, there's a slight chance that it could be but probably not. That's what I imaged it would be.
To be truthful, the price difference between custom and pre-fit is not negligible. If I use the smithing costs of a good smith like X Ring Accuracy the custom barrel and fitting is approximately 75% higher than a prefit and this assumes that I'm using your reamer, if I have to buy the reamer then we're looking at a 105% increase. Not exactly breaking the bank but let's not pretend there is little cost difference between a pre-fit and custom job; a $765 purchase is different than a $375 purchase. I understand the performance might be different but we covered that above.
Your comments on the brass life time seem sound. I'm shooting Lake City Match right now.
Can you quantify the benefits between your Savage pre-fit and your same barrel done custom? What is the difference in precision in numerical terms and under what conditions? How many loads did you get through your brass from your custom Serengeti chamber vs your pre-fit SAAMI?
Thanks. I'm looking forward to it. I'll post results once it's built. Thanks everyone for your input.
RHunter,
Do you have a diagram of the Serengeti specs like NotoriousAPP posted above of the match chamber??? I got my Sako back that Woody used your Serengeti reamer to chamber a #2 contour Shilen. Finished length is a tad over 26.5". Looks like Woody did a great job. The rifles balance point is right inderneath the front scope base/ring. This is strickly a hunting rifle. Weight on a postage scale is 8 1/2 pounds with a Swaro Z5 on top.
I haven't worked up any loads for it yet. I've only shot some factory ammo I had laying around to get it on paper and see what might work in a pinch. From 150 to 165 grainers, everything came in right at MOA or slightly better. My problem is that I can't stand the fu%@ing heat here in South GA, so it might be Oct before I get around to load development. I'll follow-up when I get more data. Finished chamber allows me to seat a 190gr SMK to kiss that lands and I'm still .01" under max magazine length. I'm not sure which bullet I'm going to settle on yet.
Thanks again.
And thank you XRing Accuracy!
Bill
Do you have a diagram of the Serengeti specs like NotoriousAPP posted above of the match chamber??? I got my Sako back that Woody used your Serengeti reamer to chamber a #2 contour Shilen. Finished length is a tad over 26.5". Looks like Woody did a great job. The rifles balance point is right inderneath the front scope base/ring. This is strickly a hunting rifle. Weight on a postage scale is 8 1/2 pounds with a Swaro Z5 on top.
I haven't worked up any loads for it yet. I've only shot some factory ammo I had laying around to get it on paper and see what might work in a pinch. From 150 to 165 grainers, everything came in right at MOA or slightly better. My problem is that I can't stand the fu%@ing heat here in South GA, so it might be Oct before I get around to load development. I'll follow-up when I get more data. Finished chamber allows me to seat a 190gr SMK to kiss that lands and I'm still .01" under max magazine length. I'm not sure which bullet I'm going to settle on yet.
Thanks again.
And thank you XRing Accuracy!
Bill
@WBB300: here is a link to an article with the Serengeti print at the bottom of the article:
The Rifleman's Journal: Cartridges: Accuracy Secrets of the .30-06 - Part 1
The Rifleman's Journal: Cartridges: Accuracy Secrets of the .30-06 - Part 1
I just ordered a 28" 1:10 5R #13 carbon wrapped from Bartlien. Going for the same type of build. really looking forward to it
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