30-06 with 208 AMAX effects on game at distance

[00bullitt]

A friend and I were recently discussing the lethality effects of bullets on game at distance. He has the opportunity to hunt in a great location this year with the possibility to take game out to 800 yards(he is a capable shooter to 1200 yards, before the ethics card gets thrown). The only rifles he has available to him are a 6.5 Creedmoor custom rifle, a 6.5 Grendel AR, a couple of AR15's and a Sig SHR970 in 30-06.

I was of the belief that the 6.5 Creedmoor probably only had a max effective range of 400 yards and the 30-06 out to 600. He had already decided he was going to roll with is 30-06 as the best choice for effectively taking game out to its max range.

A few days go by and I am consulting my bed side bible, Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting and come across the Matunas' Optimal Game Weight formula. So I start running numbers for the 30-06 tossing the 208 AMAX downrange at 2600fps. Low and behold that could make for a lethal combination on game out to 1050 yards on 180# game animals.

So it was off to the range to develop a load using the 208 AMAX. RL17 was our powder of choice. The Sig rifle has a hammer forged, 4 groove, 1/10 twist 22" barrel so we were good to go there.

I loaded up two ladders starting from 52-56.5 grains. One load with CCI 200 primers and the other with Federal 210M's.

Both shot well. The nodes were easily apparent so we chose 55.5grains which yielded 2710fps average over my M2 Chrono with IR screens. The 5 shot group turned in a .898" 5 shot group at 100. Couldn't be happier.

So now armed with real world load data and accuracy capability it looks as if this load will be sufficient to take 180# game at a distance of 1125 yards. So considering that max shot would be 800 yards, this load is capable of taking game up to 343# at 800 yards. Still retaining 1403 ft. lbs. of energy.

The OGW formula is as follows as according to Bryan's Second Edition book: <span style="font-size: 14pt">V³W² × 1.5 × 10¯¹²</span>

e.g. 1410^3*208^2*1.5*10^-12= 181.92#'s

The formula calculates for energy at the muzzle. By using your ballistic program, you have to calculate the downrange velocity to calculate the max game weight that the projectile is capable of lethally taking effectively.

This could be interesting for 308 as well shooting this bullet.

Just wanted to share as I found this information interesting and useful for my application. Thank you Bryan!

While I know this is not exact science it does provide data for a starting point. REal world field data is where the truth will lie, and this will be put to the test in about 3 months.

 

[eracer]

Re: 30-06 with 208 AMAX effects on game at distance

The A-max is designed for target shooting.

Ignoring that, no shooter can consistently put bullets in the vital area of a game animal at 1200 yards. Attempting to do so is, by its very nature, unethical.

Ethics card played.

 

[00bullitt]

Re: 30-06 with 208 AMAX effects on game at distance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eracer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The A-max is designed for target shooting.

Ignoring that, no shooter can consistently put bullets in the vital area of a game animal at 1200 yards. Attempting to do so is, by its very nature, unethical.

Ethics card played. </div></div>

Not holding water. The AMAX in various calibers has taken a many of game animals at extreme distances as has the Sierra Match King. While not specifically designed, it still works.

 

[Nortex]

Re: 30-06 with 208 AMAX effects on game at distance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eracer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The A-max is designed for target shooting. </div></div>

Yet in the Hornady loading manual they are listed capable up to medium size game.

 

[dk17hmr]

Re: 30-06 with 208 AMAX effects on game at distance

2710fps with a 208 in a 30-06!?!?!?!?!

Thats crazy Im working with this bullet in my 300wsm right now and am only at 2840fps....but 1/2 MOA at 500 yards. If I draw a desert elk tag this year I will be using it.

Judging by what the 105gr Amax fired out of my 243 Super Rock Chucker at 3400fps did to the antelope I shot last year I wouldnt worry about performace on game animals.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: 30-06 with 208 AMAX effects on game at distance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dk17hmr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">2710fps with a 208 in a 30-06!?!?!?!?!

Thats crazy Im working with this bullet in my 300wsm right now and am only at 2840fps....but 1/2 MOA at 500 yards. If I draw a desert elk tag this year I will be using it.

Judging by what the 105gr Amax fired out of my 243 Super Rock Chucker at 3400fps did to the antelope I shot last year I wouldnt worry about performace on game animals. </div></div>

I will only say one thing here for you to think honestly and subjectively about.
How thick is and elk's hide? How thick is an antelope's?
I have a good friend who hunts with AMax bullets for eastern whitetails. Upon using the same bullets on a trip for elk he replied, "Never again".
I say it all depends on what you plan to hunt, how far, and with what weight bullet. A 208 is a pretty big pill.

 

[Niles Coyote]

Re: 30-06 with 208 AMAX effects on game at distance

But one would like to know was this the 208 that was used and what was the issue, over expansion, no expansion and what was the location of impact and travel path??? Because it has worked for others.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: 30-06 with 208 AMAX effects on game at distance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Niles Coyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But one would like to know was this the 208 that was used and what was the issue, over expansion, no expansion and what was the location of impact and travel path??? Because it has worked for others. </div></div>

No it was not a 208gr and that is why I added that the 208 is a big pill. Big enough I don't know. I can tell you that a 168 will blow apart even at modest velocities.

 

[rusty815]

Re: 30-06 with 208 AMAX effects on game at distance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dk17hmr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">2710fps with a 208 in a 30-06!?!?!?!?!

Thats crazy Im working with this bullet in my 300wsm right now and am only at 2840fps....but 1/2 MOA at 500 yards. If I draw a desert elk tag this year I will be using it.

Judging by what the 105gr Amax fired out of my 243 Super Rock Chucker at 3400fps did to the antelope I shot last year I wouldnt worry about performace on game animals. </div></div>

hmm, 2700fps is very possible with the 06 and 208gr. A-max, thats what my brother got on his first trip with an 06, RL-17 and 2008gr. A-max's. Your 300wsm load is a little on the slow side, I'm getting 2960-2970fps with my 300WSM with a 24" barrel and RL-19, what powder are you using?

 

[BoilerUP]

Re: 30-06 with 208 AMAX effects on game at distance

I don't currently have any 30cals in my safe so I cannot comment on the 30-06 or the 208 A-Max.

That said, the 260/6.5 Creedmoor's effective range is substantially greater than 400yd, capable of carrying 1000ft/lb of energy to 700yd with 130/140gr bullets and still above 850ft/lb at 800yd.

I won't make an argument than a '06 pushing a 208gr bullet at 2700fps isn't "better", but I certainly wouldn't call it necessary for deer-sized game.

 

[Advokaten]

Re: 30-06 with 208 AMAX effects on game at distance

All though it was the 178 grains version, it was out of a 308 Win,

at the modest ranges of 89 meter and 152 meters,

this is what the bullet look like efter passing through two shoulderblades and the lower part of the spine.

I dare say that the A-max is a great hunting bullet.

Did I mention DRT on both?!
/Chris

 

[00bullitt]

Re: 30-06 with 208 AMAX effects on game at distance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BoilerUP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't currently have any 30cals in my safe so I cannot comment on the 30-06 or the 208 A-Max.

That said, the 260/6.5 Creedmoor's effective range is substantially greater than 400yd, capable of carrying 1000ft/lb of energy to 700yd with 130/140gr bullets and still above 850ft/lb at 800yd.

I won't make an argument than a '06 pushing a 208gr bullet at 2700fps isn't "better", but I certainly wouldn't call it necessary for deer-sized game. </div></div>

I don't doubt that the 6.5 Creedmoor is capable. Just based on an assumption, I guessed that 400 yards might be the maximum effective range on 180# game.
At 800 yards, what velocity remains for a 130 or 140gr. 6.5 pill?
Now having a calculable formula, I'd be curious to see what the numbers suggest.

Jered Joplin of American Precision Arms has taken a number of animals utilizing a 284 sending the 162 AMAX downrange at 2950fps from 900-1050 yards. They have all died within 15 yards of the shot if not DRT. Granted he made good shots as he is a very accomplished LR shooter.

As for the 30-06, at 56.5 grains of RL17 we were seeing velocities of 2814 but with slight ejector marks and the start of flat primers but no sticky bolt. Overall Length to ogive was 2.640" using the Sinclair gauge. I mention Sinclair because for some reason the Hornady gauge gives a slightly different measurement.

 

[BoilerUP]

Re: 30-06 with 208 AMAX effects on game at distance

800yd, SEA LEVEL STANDARD ATMOSPHERE

130gr Berger Hunting VLD, 2950fps
5.4mil drop, 1.5mil drift, 1745fps, 979ft/lb energy

140gr A-Max, 2820fps
5.9mil drop, 1.5mil drift, 1691fps, 889ft/lb energy

 

[00bullitt]

Re: 30-06 with 208 AMAX effects on game at distance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BoilerUP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">800yd, SEA LEVEL STANDARD ATMOSPHERE

130gr Berger Hunting VLD, 2950fps
5.4mil drop, 1.5mil drift, 1745fps, 979ft/lb energy

140gr A-Max, 2820fps
5.9mil drop, 1.5mil drift, 1691fps, 889ft/lb energy </div></div>

The 130gr. Berger Hunting VLD calculates out to be effective on 135# game and the 140 gr. Hornady AMAX calculates out to be effective on 142# game at 800 yards at the stated velocities.

This is suggested as Optimal Game Weight(OGW) according to Matunas' formula.

 

[02Silver]

Re: 30-06 with 208 AMAX effects on game at distance

I'd like to see you throw some Accubonds and VLD's in that 06...for comparison sake. Maybe even a Barnes TTSX. I am not saying an AMax won't drop them but if one of the others shoots well at least consider it.

 

[Advokaten]

Re: 30-06 with 208 AMAX effects on game at distance

Speaking from experience,

neither of those brands will expand well at extended ranges,

I like Accubonds for close range work in rather high V0, for the rest, I have no liking.

/Chris

 

[bohem]

Re: 30-06 with 208 AMAX effects on game at distance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dk17hmr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">2710fps with a 208 in a 30-06!?!?!?!?!

Thats crazy Im working with this bullet in my 300wsm right now and am only at 2840fps....but 1/2 MOA at 500 yards. If I draw a desert elk tag this year I will be using it.

Judging by what the 105gr Amax fired out of my 243 Super Rock Chucker at 3400fps did to the antelope I shot last year I wouldnt worry about performace on game animals. </div></div>

My 26" 30-06 runs them at 2750 with H4831sc, 2710 in winter with RL22 and 2820 in the summer with RL22






If the 30-06 that the OP's friend owns will hold 1/2-3/4MOA at 800yd then I'd run the 30-06 with it. The key here is bullet placement and hitting a 6-10" target at 800yd on the first shot is no small accomplishment when all jazzed up for a hunt.

The 6.5CM with a 140 in it still has lots of power to hit out there, more than a 357mag does at the muzzle, either will kill deer at that distance.

Considering how well my 6.5CM shoots and the ease at which I've been plugging clay birds out past 900yd with it lately, I will be taking my 6.5 stuffed with 140 Amax's deer hunting again with me this year... it worked well last year.


To those quoting "Energy at distance" and "Mauntos(sp?) Formula" there are a lot of Moose killed in AK by Inuit with 223's

How's the 223 pencil out with the Mauntos formula against an 1800lb animal?

How about Moose against the 6.5x55 Swede with 160gr RN at 400m? The Swedes have been killing them on that peninsula for more than 100yrs with a 160RN going 2650fps... the Mauntos doesn't stack in that equation either.

Shoot any animal on the 3rd rib tending forward through the vitals, blow a few ribs to pieces going in, hit the lungs and/or heart and you have a recipe for a quick kill.

 

[00bullitt]

Re: 30-06 with 208 AMAX effects on game at distance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dk17hmr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">2710fps with a 208 in a 30-06!?!?!?!?!

Thats crazy Im working with this bullet in my 300wsm right now and am only at 2840fps....but 1/2 MOA at 500 yards. If I draw a desert elk tag this year I will be using it.

Judging by what the 105gr Amax fired out of my 243 Super Rock Chucker at 3400fps did to the antelope I shot last year I wouldnt worry about performace on game animals. </div></div>

My 26" 30-06 runs them at 2750 with H4831sc, 2710 in winter with RL22 and 2820 in the summer with RL22






If the 30-06 that the OP's friend owns will hold 1/2-3/4MOA at 800yd then I'd run the 30-06 with it. The key here is bullet placement and hitting a 6-10" target at 800yd on the first shot is no small accomplishment when all jazzed up for a hunt.

The 6.5CM with a 140 in it still has lots of power to hit out there, more than a 357mag does at the muzzle, either will kill deer at that distance.

Considering how well my 6.5CM shoots and the ease at which I've been plugging clay birds out past 900yd with it lately, I will be taking my 6.5 stuffed with 140 Amax's deer hunting again with me this year... it worked well last year.


To those quoting "Energy at distance" and "Mauntos(sp?) Formula" there are a lot of Moose killed in AK by Inuit with 223's

How's the 223 pencil out with the Mauntos formula against an 1800lb animal?

How about Moose against the 6.5x55 Swede with 160gr RN at 400m? The Swedes have been killing them on that peninsula for more than 100yrs with a 160RN going 2650fps... the Mauntos doesn't stack in that equation either.

Shoot any animal on the 3rd rib tending forward through the vitals, blow a few ribs to pieces going in, hit the lungs and/or heart and you have a recipe for a quick kill. </div></div>

The formula is just a scientific equation. Shot placement becomes relative in many situations for the less than optimally calculated solutions. e.g. The .223 launching a 55gr. FMJ shooting a moose size animal in the brain has the capability to bring it down. It is shot placement.

I was squirrel hunting with a 17 Mach 2 and 3 pigs came out of the bottom towards me. I kneeled and waited for the opportune shot to thread the little 17gr. projectile behind the 170# sow's ear. She dropped like she never knew what hit her. The others turned and ran before I could take a second shot but she layed lifeless where I shot her.

I took one of the largest bucks of my life at 287 yards across a field using a .223 shooting a 64gr. PowerPoint. He dressed out at 190#. I shot him in the scapula. Upon impact he arched his back, went stiff and fell over. It was more an accident than anything as I was holding over using an EoTech and held a little higher than needed for the shot as I judged him a little further at roughly 350 yards. I had expected to hit the heart/lung vital area. He never moved after he arched his back.

Shot placement is relative. But at extreme distances, it becomes more difficult to make those sort of shots. Is a kill possible at those distances with less than optimal caliber and bullet choices? Sure. Most likely the animal will die from more superficial tissue damage rather than from hydrostatic shock induced trauma. Using less than optimal calibers and bullet choices, could mean you have to track your animal for some distance. Still very possible that it will end in death. As noted, just might not be optimal.

The numbers prove out very well in the case of the 208 AMAX and make it a very viable choice.

I shoot a 300 Win Mag shooting the same 208 AMAX. It travels at 3060fps. According to the formula, it is lethal on 180# game to 1325 yards. Will I attempt a shot out that far? No, as reliable range estimation starts to become the issue. Without a suitable quality laser rangefinder that you trust at extended distances, it becomes the issue. I would want a Vectronix Terrapin or a G7 type rangefinder for something along those lines. Non Reflective targets become the issue with many rangefinders.
Accurate range estimation of game becomes of utmost importance at extended ranges. Something else to consider. Much the reason why the UltraMags that require 19-20moa of drop shooting heavier projectiles become the rage for the extreme long range hunter.

 

[bohem]

Re: 30-06 with 208 AMAX effects on game at distance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 00bullitt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The formula is just a scientific equation. Shot placement becomes relative in many situations for the less than optimally calculated solutions. e.g. <span style="font-weight: bold">The .223 launching a 55gr. FMJ shooting a moose size animal in the brain has the capability to bring it down. <span style="text-decoration: underline">It is shot placement.</span></span>
</div></div>

Without requoting the rest of your post, thank you for reiterating my point.

 

[SPAK]

Re: 30-06 with 208 AMAX effects on game at distance

I used the .30-06 208 amax running 2700fps for caribou two years ago.

one shot was 300yards clean through the shoulder and out the hide. Bullet not recovered.

second shot 512 yards quartering away recovered on opposite shoulder, expanded well. Both caribou went down with one shot.

200 gr accubonds running roughly 2700fps used on a grizzly bear at 300 yards first shot through the shoulder dropped it. It wasn't going anywhere put three more into it to put it down quickly and make sure I wasn't going to walk up on a wounded bear.

I prefer to use the accubonds for up close dangerous game, but the 208 amax I feel comfortable caribou and moose up to 700 yards. Deer sized game I would venture a little further.

I think the minimum velocity for expansion is 1300fps or 1500 fps. I can't remember.

The accubonds require a little higher velocity to open which is why I don't use them beyond 400 yards in the .30-06 for grizzly. Could it be done, probably. But I don't really want to risk it

Not on that animal anyway.

 

[dk17hmr]

Re: 30-06 with 208 AMAX effects on game at distance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rusty815</div><div class="ubbcode-body">......hmm, 2700fps is very possible with the 06 and 208gr. A-max, thats what my brother got on his first trip with an 06, RL-17 and 2008gr. A-max's. Your 300wsm load is a little on the slow side, I'm getting 2960-2970fps with my 300WSM with a 24" barrel and RL-19, what powder are you using? </div></div>

Im using RL-19, Im just starting to work with the powder so I didnt jump to max right away. Im at 67.0gr right now at 2833fps and 1/2 MOA groups at 500 yards. Groups kept getting tighter the high I went with the charge. I have 67.5, 68.0 and 68.5 grain loads ready to test when I get time. I have seen posts where guys are up to 70.0gr but having never used this powder before I didnt want to start to high. As long as I stay 1/2MOA or less Ill push them as fast as I can, but right now its still super sonic passed 1 mile for me here at 6600+ feet.

3 shot group 1 MOA high at 500 yards but 2.468" center to center.

I guess I havent thought about shooting them in my 30-06 before so I didnt know these types of velocities were possible. Considering the load I killed my first elk with was a 165gr moving about 2850fps I didnt think I need to shoot 200+ grain jacketed in my 30-06, I do shoot a 250gr cast in it though. I might have to give these 208s a try in my Remington 700. Or finish out my last 200SMK's in it just to see what it does.

Didnt mean to highjack.

 

[bohem]

Re: 30-06 with 208 AMAX effects on game at distance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dk17hmr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I guess I havent thought about shooting them in my 30-06 before so I didnt know these types of velocities were possible. Considering the load I killed my first elk with was a 165gr moving about 2850fps<span style="font-weight: bold"> I didnt think I need to shoot 200+ grain jacketed in my 30-06</span>, I do shoot a 250gr cast in it though. I might have to give these 208s a try in my Remington 700. Or finish out my last 200SMK's in it just to see what it does.

Didnt mean to highjack. </div></div>

I started playing with it based on the advice of a member here, MontanaMarine, when he talked about doing it. When I looked at his speeds and the projected BC of the 208 Amax I realized just how much performance was there for long range targets.

The fact that it brings a ton of punch to hunting targets was a big secondary benefit to me.

 

[Burleyboy]

Re: 30-06 with 208 AMAX effects on game at distance

I run the 200g accubond from my 23" broughton barreled 30-06. It runs 2725 fps and is 1/2 moa with 54.5g of rl-17. I run the 208 amax in other rigs but haven't shot it too much in the 30-06. I plan to work with it more soon. I wouldn't be afraid to hunt with a 208.

Bb