300 PRC update
- Thread starter DAVETOOLEY
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So, question for ya Dave. accuracy wise, how would YOU stack it up? I'm not as impressed with velocity as I am with inherent accuracy and ease of
tune. Your opinion carry's weight. Think 6BR/ 6.5x47
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I'll first be shooting it from an AI AXMC once I get the barrel in, but I'm really interested to see how it would work as a long range hunting rifle in the 8 to 10 pounds range that could also represent itself nicely at the range and long distance targets shot slowly.
Looks like a good cartridge to try out some of the new 30 cal smk bullets. I need a new 300 win barrel, maybe I just get this instead. Also, is there any info on reloading dies becoming available, or did I miss something? I apologize if this has already been asked.
Am I the only one who is confused about why people are drooling over this cartridge? As far as I can tell, case dimensions are almost an exact copy of the 30 Nosler, down to a few hundredths of an inch. And in my experience, Nosler brass is a hell of a lot more consistent than Hornady. So, uh, why all the excitement over this 30 Nosler copycat?
If the argument for the 300 PRC is that Hornady brass is more readily available than 30 Nosler (solving the Nosler brass availability problem), okay, fair enough. Just making sure I am not mistaken that this cartridge is basically a carbon copy of the 30 Nosler.
I forgot that the Nosler has a rebated rim, but still. Capacity has to be very close between the PRC and the Nosler.
My version of 30-375R which is very similar to 300PRC except with a 35 degree shoulder had always been very accurate. I shot a 980Y 5 shot group that was 2.5 high and 4.5 inch wide with it one time but it'd do close to that often if the wind was down. That was with 230 Berger hybrids. Off the bipod too.
With 1500 rounds through it last November, I was tagging a 15" wide steel at 1900Y more often than I thought I would be able too.
In the 1000 round area of barrel life I won an ELR match.
When it was new, while working up a load with 240SMK, my final load went into .080" for 3 shots and the next group was in the .2's.
I got to test the 230 hybrids before they came out. Did a ladder at 300Y, 3 shots touching, I picked the middle of those and used that load to win 4-5 AZPRC matches with, after the bullets became available later on.
This cartridge case strikes a good balance. Decent barrel life, decent power, no belt, and recoil isn't punishing in a heavy braked rifle. Brass shouldn't be overly expensive, we hope anyway.
Th
Only reason I'm asking. I am doing a 6.5x55gwi. On a long action. I ordered a magnum bolt for it so now I need to choose.
Thanks Steve. (Kevin says thanks too)
Only reason I'm asking. I am doing a 6.5x55gwi. On a long action. I ordered a magnum bolt for it so now I need to choose.
It's not the same case as the Nosler, the Noslers are short 404 Jefferies cases with rebated rims, same concept as the ultra mags. The PRC is a necked down 375 Ruger. I think the biggest advantage that the Ruger will have over the Nosler is the overall length when it comes to factory ammo. The Noslers are designed with a 3.4" OAL while the SAAMI drawing for the Ruger is 3.5 to 3.7. This should give ammo makers a lot more options when it comes to loading long heavy for caliber bullets.
In a custom rifle with handloads that advantage might not exist, but one of the reasons the Creedmoor was so successful was because you could buy a decent factory rifle (Ruger RPR) and good factory ammo for a decent price and instantly go shoot at a 1000 yards. If Ruger follows the same game plan you should be able to buy good factory ammo that will fit in a wide variety of rifles with a wide variety of bullets that could get you to a mile or more. I don't think Nosler will have the same availability in rifles or factory ammo.
It is NOT the same case. The OD of the case is the same diameter as the OD of the belt.
If the length is identical the .300 PRC will have more case capacity, as the body of the case is fatter.
I think you meant the Nosler will have more capacity, but I'm tracking now. Does anyone know the difference in case capacity? I think the difference in performance will still be very small.
The PRC is a bit shorter, case capacity might be very similar, but the case itself might be more efficient.
If the Nosler is longer, and has a fatter case body, it should definitely have the capacity edge. I just don't think it will make much of a difference in performance. Broz did an in depth comparison of 30 Nosler and 300WM over on Long Range Only, and the two were within 50fps with the same barrel length. The 300 PRC should be closer to the Nosler in terms of capacity compared to the 300 WM, so I would expect the performance difference to be even smaller. I'm not sure how the PRC could be much more efficient than the Nosler given their similar dimensions.
I think we are talking past each other.
I was only referring to the differences between the PRC and Win Mag, I wasn't snapping to the nosler part of the conversation.
It looks like the Nosler offering is a rebated rim affair.
I think the biggest advantage is that it was SAAMI spec’ed as a long range cartridge with the 3.575 COAL length and an 8.5 twist barrel designed around shooting the heavy .30 cals. It really isn’t a quantum leap in cartridge design so much as paving the way for factory offerings designed to be billed as the next step up from the 6.5 Creedmoor.
Look at it this way, with the exception of a handful of companies offering a fast twist .300 Win mag the only way to get similar performance in any other .30 Cal magnum is to build it yourself. Additionally since the .300 Win Mag and most other .30 cal magnums are hampered by the SAAMI design it prevents all but a handful of small ammo companies, such as ABM, from loading them to their full long range potential.
So to sum it up I don’t see the .300 PRC as an improvement in cartridge design so much as it standardizing the modern .300 Magnum. Currently every other .30 cal magnum was designed to shoot light to mid weight bullets fast for a flat trajectory and max PBR for hunting. With the the new heavy .30 Cal bullets and scopes with much better tracking the PRC is instead designed specifically to optimize the long range performance of the .30 cal without getting into overbore territory.
Personally I think if Hornady is able to get it off the ground I can see rifle manufacturers offering their tactical long range rifles in the PRC rather than the Win Mag going forward. If I hadn’t just bought a new 8 twist Win Mag Barrel and 400 cases I probably would have waited a bit and rebarreled my Mausingfield in the .300 PRC.
Look at it this way, with the exception of a handful of companies offering a fast twist .300 Win mag the only way to get similar performance in any other .30 Cal magnum is to build it yourself. Additionally since the .300 Win Mag and most other .30 cal magnums are hampered by the SAAMI design it prevents all but a handful of small ammo companies, such as ABM, from loading them to their full long range potential.
So to sum it up I don’t see the .300 PRC as an improvement in cartridge design so much as it standardizing the modern .300 Magnum. Currently every other .30 cal magnum was designed to shoot light to mid weight bullets fast for a flat trajectory and max PBR for hunting. With the the new heavy .30 Cal bullets and scopes with much better tracking the PRC is instead designed specifically to optimize the long range performance of the .30 cal without getting into overbore territory.
Personally I think if Hornady is able to get it off the ground I can see rifle manufacturers offering their tactical long range rifles in the PRC rather than the Win Mag going forward. If I hadn’t just bought a new 8 twist Win Mag Barrel and 400 cases I probably would have waited a bit and rebarreled my Mausingfield in the .300 PRC.
I took a 300 Norma AND 300 PRC barrel for my AXMC to the ELR match last year with Hornady. I had my hand loads and an 8 twist 300 Norma barrel running 215 Bergers and ran into issues with consistency at distance as the round count increased day 1 so before the last stage I ripped off the Norma and threw on the 8 twist 300 PRC with factory Hornady 225 ELD ammo with a total of 45 rounds on the barrel, dialed my offset, switched to the 4DOF app and proceeded to clean the last stage of the day. Day 2 with the PRC was night and day different. The 300 Norma is garbage, the 338 Norma is amazing. For a big .30 the .30-375 Ruger/300AI/300PRC is VERY hard to beat and that's real world experience shooting several to 1,900 yards and beyond. Next I want to make a 7-300 PRC!
I'm excitedly waiting on the .300 PRC barrel for my AXMC that Dave is making, I hope to have lots of fun this winter seeing if I can get to 2k
Please make sure to post when you have a 7-300 PRC done, I'd love to hear how it turned out & then get specs from you.
Any chance you can elaborate on why you feel the 300 Norma is garbage? I've never heard that before and while I'm thinking about it, one prominent shooter has stated he has seen more first round hits at 1500 yards with that cartridge than any other. Was this the only bad experience or have you had others and are you certain it isn't just a barrel issue or that it just doesn't like the 215 Berger?
Not doubting your experience just looking for more info.
Not doubting your experience just looking for more info.
Couldn't disagree more with the first part. Couldn't agree more with the second.
Back from two weeks of cool mountain air. Heat index today is 97 at home. Damn I like frosty mountain mornings, grizzlys walking by camp and elk bugling.
Myself and the Hornady crowd have been shooting this in 1K BR comps for a decade now. I've shot 5" ten shot 1K groups with the round with the then new 225 ELD-M. No problem with accuracy. Case design has little influence on accuracy with all things being equal. A good action, mated with a good barrel and chamber are the basic foundation for any accurate rifle. Then it's about bullets and tuning. In regards to case capacity you reach a point of diminishing returns and then it becomes more problematic to tune the large capacity cases.
My views on the 300 PRC vs the 30 Nosler.
Both have their place.
Performance will be pretty much the same. Each has enough capacity to get the job done.
The reason I like the 300 PRC over the 30 Nosler is it will very simply convert any existing 300 WM platform with nothing more than a barrel change. Can't say that about the Nosler.
Mags work, feed rails work etc.
For a step up in performance it's the easy button of upgrades.
Both have their place.
Performance will be pretty much the same. Each has enough capacity to get the job done.
The reason I like the 300 PRC over the 30 Nosler is it will very simply convert any existing 300 WM platform with nothing more than a barrel change. Can't say that about the Nosler.
Mags work, feed rails work etc.
For a step up in performance it's the easy button of upgrades.
My guess is very soon. Probably working its way through the manufacturing /distribution system right now.
That hornady ammo with the 225s looks very appealing. I'm still hoping hornady will offer the same bullet in loaded 300 win mag. But with this new cartridge I doubt they will.
I'm still on the fence here. I have a 300 win mag with only 100 rds fired, but I am going to start to reload for it since i reload for other calibers. Do you guys feel just putting in the extra money and rebarreling for the 300prc and reloading for that would be worth it? I dont have any of the dies or components for the win mag yet except for once fired brass from factory ammo. I am already shooting out to 1000 regularly wwita 6.5 creedmoor and .300wm, but would like to reach the 1500 to 2k mark. If I had a custom action I wouldn't hesitate, but I'm running a factory howa 1500 barreled action in an mdt chassis. Any input would be great. Intriguing round for sure.
Factory barrel on the 300wm I would rebarrel. Custom barrel, I'd shoot it out then go PRC next round.
Makes sense. I'm not getting exceptional accuracy as it stands anyway. Not bad but not what I was hoping for.
If it were me,and it's a factory barrel,don't have the 300 win reloading components yet,i would re-barrel and chamber to the 300prc.
Don't get me wrong i like the 300 win mag a lot.
Just a suggestion. Could you borrow a set of dies from someone? A little tuning and different bullets may improve the accuracy. Then after a weekend or two of shooting I think you'll have your answer.
Unfortunately I dont know anyone off the top of my head who reloads for 300 win mag. I do agree that some load development would improve accuracy quite a bit. With factory hornady 195 eld-m loads I am getting around 1 moa or slightly larger. With the heavier, high bc bullets available that the win mag can reach out significantly farther than 6.5 cm with 140s? The availability of components and data is very appealing with the win mag, but to be honest, I feel a bit intimidated with all the negative stories of reloading belted magnums.
I do not care for belted magnums from a design perspective, however, I own one.
They are not difficult to load for.
You can reload very accurate ammo with these dies:
https://www.amazon.com/Lee-Precision-Reloading-Magazine-Ultimate/dp/B00HSRQEFS
You'll be fine using the heavy 225 or 230gn offerings from Hornady or Berger. Should get you to nearly a mile supersonic and well beyond once the bullet drops trans-sonic. A couple of buddies shot with me at an ELR match earlier this year with 6.5 PRC rifles and the biggest problem past a mile was spotting misses. Those little 6.5's don't kick up much dirt that far out.
I still have the factory barrel on my R700 LR 300WM (1-10 twist) and for a while I was caught up with the fact that I couldn't get consistent groups below 3/4" at 100yds. I'd get the odd ball small group, but after 250 or so rounds, the barrel is a pretty solid 3/4moa with hand loads. Now, do I wish I could punch little sub 1/4 minute groups with this gun? Sure! But then I started doing some math...
My closest range that offers ELR distances is Spearpoint Ranch, just north of Salina, KS. They offer steel out to 2200yds (and occasionally beyond). The 2200yd plate is (I think) 48" x 48". In a perfect, no-wind environment my 3/4 minute gun should print a 17" group and my dream 1/4 minute gun should print a 5" group. Sounds like a big difference but, hey, they are both on target and scoring points at 2200yds!
Now start to throw in some wind. A change of only 1mph in wind speed (assuming a full crosswind) is 31" in horizontal wind deflection. That's enough to easily blow you off target with even the most accurate .30 cal rifle. Not to mention the variables thrown in with muzzle velocity and optical shimmer shifting your perceived target location and the mechanical accuracy becomes one of the least critical components to getting consistent hits at really long distances.
I guess what I'm saying is that a super accurate rifle helps, no doubt, but the biggest factors are the ability to read the wind / conditions consistently and workup a load with the least amount of MV variation as possible. So far I've gotten consistent hits out to a mile but beyond that the wind is bucking me to one side of the plate or the other (and by a lot more than what the difference of a custom barrel would improve upon). Shoot that 300WM factory barrel until you burn that sucker out or are ready to go fast twist (1-8 to 1-9) to run the sexy solids like Warner Flatlines or Cutting Edge MTH.
Solid advice. A lot of things to consider, but I'm sure I can get some good results whichever cartridge I stick with, either the win mag or the prc.
A buddy of mine has the same setup as you, the factory 1500 300 win mag. He handloads for it and consistently shoots 3/4 moa groups. He shoots the 208's and 225's at what I think is a pretty fast clip. His loads are pretty warm. This summer, he was able to go 3 or 4 out of 10 on the charity shoot at 1900 yards at the Q creek ELR match. It was a unicorn about a mil wide and several mils tall at sort of a diagonal/up on its hind legs. I think that is pretty good for a factory rig. If you stayed WM i think you probably have a very capable rifle still. He seems to be fine reloading WM as though it was a non belted cartridge.
Don't let the belt intimidate you. It's been around a long time. The basic gripe is if you reload the case enough times there is an area in front of the belt that the sizing die doesn't touch. In time that can cause extraction issues. True but usually primer pockets go away before there's extraction issues.
Dave, I just wanted to give my sincere thanks. You have an incredible wealth of knowledge and have never hesitated to share it here to advance the sport of long range.
Thanks Dave and everyone for the info and advice. It's a huge help to have knowledgeable people willing to help.
Anyone going to run this cartridge or currently running a 300Win/30 Nosler without a muzzle brake? I'm really getting interested in the 300 PRC but I despise muzzle brakes. I stopped shooting a 338 Lapua because everyone around me including myself could not stand the muzzle blast and at the time I did not have the range to take advantage of it. I have the distance now and I'm shooting a 7 SAUM on a ~17lb rifle without a brake and it's very tolerable. Any thoughts on a 19-20lb 300 PRC with 200/215 gr bullets without a brake?
I understand everyone's tolerance for recoil is different but just looking for opinions. Would probably shoot up to 100 rds during a single session so it needs to be something that I don't get fatigued doing.
I understand everyone's tolerance for recoil is different but just looking for opinions. Would probably shoot up to 100 rds during a single session so it needs to be something that I don't get fatigued doing.
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