300 Win Mag Brass

[truck driver]

I know it has been asked before but with 1267 post to go threw it's like trying to find a needle in a hay stock.
There is good 300 Win mag brass and then there is domestic type brass, Winchester,Remington, Federal, and Hornady are the ones that come to mind. If these are all you can find which would you buy?

 

[j-huskey]

I buy Winchester. Last 10 years it has been the most consistent.

Remington has been very hard brass and difficult to get consistent 2nd firings as it doesnt resize the same for me.

Federal has soft primer pockets, and if you dont anneal the necks, very inconsistent neck tension on 2nd firing.

Hornady has neck split on me first firing.

Winchester does have up to 10-12 grain spread in case weights, and lowest versus highest weights shot in the same string has caused high extreme spreads, but, I buy in bigger case lots and sort by weights of less that one grain overall, and those select lots shoot match grade.

I bought lapua one time, never again.

vr

 

[FatBoy]

I have been running old Winchester blue bag and it's been good but I am running out. This week I bought 100 ADG cases to test and my initial out of box impression is overwhelmingly good. I will get a water capacity comparison tomorrow. These cases come squared off so they will need a chamfer but the flash hole appears to be drilled and this brass looks fantastic, comes on boxes that will allow a loaded round to be inserted tip up and is US made, in Louisville.

 

[eicas]

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/win-mag-brass-who-makes-the-good-stuff.6910537/

 

[memilanuk]

I buy Winchester. Last 10 years it has been the most consistent.

If by 'consistent', you mean '$hit', then I'd agree. I bought some Winchester .300WM brass earlier this year... out of 50, there were 12 or 13 that were flat out unusable from a physical defect standpoint. Didn't even get into sorting by weight or neck thickness - I'm talking mangled shoulders, necks, etc. Stuff that was unrecoverable; it never should have left the plant. By comparison, the stuff I bought 5-6 years ago... had only one case that was questionable.

Winchester does have up to 10-12 grain spread in case weights, and lowest versus highest weights shot in the same string has caused high extreme spreads, but, I buy in bigger case lots and sort by weights of less that one grain overall, and those select lots shoot match grade.

I concur, once it's suitable suited and massaged, Winchester brass does shoot *great*, and lasts and lasts.

I bought lapua one time, never again.

Rumor has it that the 'old' Lapua .300WM was made by Norma, and head stamped 'Lapua'.

Rumor also has it that Lapua will be bringing out actual 'Lapua'-made .300WM next year.

 

[FatBoy]

If by 'consistent', you mean '$hit', then I'd agree. I bought some Winchester .300WM brass earlier this year... out of 50, there were 12 or 13 that were flat out unusable from a physical defect standpoint. Didn't even get into sorting by weight or neck thickness - I'm talking mangled shoulders, necks, etc. Stuff that was unrecoverable; it never should have left the plant.

Curious, was the junk brass in red and black bags? I have a few hundred old 243win cases (blue bag) that are very good. Bought a few hundred red/black bag and it's the same shit your seeing with 300wm. Uneven necks, split necks, rolls in shoulder, etc.

FWIW, I haven't bought a box of Lapua 6.5x284 or 6BR brass that didn't have anywhere from 2-6 culls for split necks or rolled shoulders. It really posses me off when the brass is $1.20 a stick.

 

[memilanuk]

Yeah, this was the new stuff, picked it up in the local Sportsman's Warehouse earlier this year.

I've had completely the opposite experience with Lapua. I've purchased and used literally *thousands* upon thousands of Lapua .308 brass over the last 10 years. Run 'em hard for F/TR for a season or two, then off to either the back-up zombie apocalypse ammo stash or the recycler. I've also ran a few hundred 6.5-284, and probably 1k of 6 BR - no problems whatsoever. The worst problem I've seen has been maybe the mouths a little dented (very slightly) after they went to the blue boxes and there was more room for things to bang around.

 

[spaniel]

My 300WM is all old Winchester, and was very good stuff. Based on all bottleneck Winchester brass bought in the last 4 years, I'm done, I'll never buy another bag. Complete garbage. Worst brand now by far.

I've had great luck with all Lapua and Starline for that matter. If Lapua made 300WM next year, that's what would replace my aging old school Win brass.

 

[bax]

Old Lapua is good but I don't know where to find any more. I bought 100 cases from a store in New Zealand about 10 years ago - still shooting it. My second-best is once-fired Winchester military - very consistent. Old blue-bag Winchester was also good. I have enough of the ex-military WW that I haven't bought any commercial Winchester for several years. I had good luck with some RP but I don't use it much. RWS and Norma are heavier, different loads.

 

[Jakebrake300]

I have tons of old ( like 10 to 15 years old) Winchester brass that I use with my .300 win mag and it’s been great, I only hunt with it and probably only run 100 rounds a year through it. I also have a few hundred pieces of Nosler brass for it that I have been using more lately. I really like the Nosler it comes pre weight sorted and sized. I never hear anything about it though does anyone have any negative feedback on Nosler?

 

[1J04]

If by 'consistent', you mean '$hit', then I'd agree. I bought some Winchester .300WM brass earlier this year... out of 50, there were 12 or 13 that were flat out unusable from a physical defect standpoint. Didn't even get into sorting by weight or neck thickness - I'm talking mangled shoulders, necks, etc. Stuff that was unrecoverable; it never should have left the plant. By comparison, the stuff I bought 5-6 years ago... had only one case that was questionable.



I concur, once it's suitable suited and massaged, Winchester brass does shoot *great*, and lasts and lasts.



Rumor has it that the 'old' Lapua .300WM was made by Norma, and head stamped 'Lapua'.

Rumor also has it that Lapua will be bringing out actual 'Lapua'-made .300WM next year.

Regarding that Winchester Blue Bag Brass, you mean like this right?







I like Winchester Brass, but wholly shit, like I said in the other thread posted above, you better be ready to cull AT LEAST 6-8 outta a 50 pc bag. We have a QC guy for Jagemann Brass on here that's gonna try and hook me up with some samples of Belted Mag Brass, either 300WM or 7MM, don't matter to me, then I'll do a review if it comes through. Sounds interesting, I'll say that. If it's gonna be readily available and suits 'my' needs it'll be a nice surprise for the coming year of Pew.

Edit: And yes, those are actually folds 'and' creases in that stuff. And yes again, I've seen the exact same thing on other Belted Magnum Cartridges in the Red Bag of Winchester. They don't suck at QC, they just ain't got any.

 

[memilanuk]

That looks more like the $hit-show that was the new red/black bagged stuff.

 

[1500varmint]

ADG cases

Wow.

Those look good.

 

[1J04]

That looks more like the $hit-show that was the new red/black bagged stuff.

View attachment 6973116View attachment 6973117

Geezus Jumping H. Krist. It really does get worse. What in the Bloody Phuket Thailand happened to actually sampling the shit they toss in the bags? Stupid bastards.

 

[memilanuk]

38 out of 50 usable cases ain't bad...

 

[spife7980]

I’ll never use their rifle brass again after my last go round of 270

 

[spaniel]

No more Win for me. Just the fact that they let that crap in their sellable product says they aren't worth considering.

 

[918v]

No issues with Winchester brass. It’s good brass. Don’t condemn it just because they included some rejects in one of their bags. 99.9% of it is fine.

I also use Hornady brass and it is excellent.

 

[powerspc]

I'm using Hornady, I have no experience with any of the others mentioned. I'm only on my third reload with two boxes of 50 but so far they seem fine. I guess that's not really an endorsement so take it for what it's worth.

 

[FishDr]

Old Lapua is good but I don't know where to find any more. I bought 100 cases from a store in New Zealand about 10 years ago - still shooting it. My second-best is once-fired Winchester military - very consistent. Old blue-bag Winchester was also good. I have enough of the ex-military WW that I haven't bought any commercial Winchester for several years. I had good luck with some RP but I don't use it much. RWS and Norma are heavier, different loads.

I agree with this assessment which is why i bought about 1000 of Winchester Miltary (WCC) brass from a military range when i found some. Split it with a friend, then sold my 300WM rifle to build a more competition friendly caliber.

If any of yall are interested, i have several hundred that I fully prepped and never fired that id part with reasonably.
Sorry for the thread Hi-jack. Now back to the OP.

 

[1J04]

No issues with Winchester brass. It’s good brass. Don’t condemn it just because they included some rejects in one of their bags. 99.9% of it is fine.

I also use Hornady brass and it is excellent.

Brother, it ain't that easy as "one of their bags". I run a shit load of Brass for what I do for myself and my friends I reload for. I've got .300WM, 7MM RemMag, and .308 BAGS. Bag after bag it's full of SHIT. Period. They have ZERO QC. ZERO ! Oh ya, and 25-06. It's a farce and they obviously don't care, but as you, I too like Winny Brass. I'd just like to get what I pay for.

 

[Bigwheels]

I had the same issue with the new Win brass. Out of 100 there was only 70+/- that weren't torn, crushed, &/or dimpled badly. Out of the rest only maybe 50 had less than .015" variation in neck wall thickness. I have switched to PPU for now with very good results. Its thin & the belts are on the large side but very consistent. Only have 3 firings so far so longevity is TBD. BTW I've been getting it for $30/50 ct.

 

[lou400a]

That looks more like the $hit-show that was the new red/black bagged stuff.

View attachment 6973116View attachment 6973117

Just load and fireform, them wrinkles will come rite out. Kidding of course. Its kind of hard to imagine something like that pass qc.

 

[FatBoy]

Just did the ADG water test, only tested two unfired Win and two new ADG.

Weight empty/weight with water/capacity

Win1 245.2/336.1/90.9
Win2 246.1/334.1/88.0
ADG1 257.5/345.8/88.3
ADG2 256.6/344.4/87.8

Admittedly a very small sample size but I am thinking I can start maybe a half grain low and work back up to my MV/accuracy node.

 

[DIBBS]

ADG FTW!

Very consistent weights in my experience.

The new winchester is SHIT, I was able to get a refund , but I culled 25% of 200 cases. No more red and black and white bag garbage for me. Cant believe they let it out of the plant, QC must be drunk.

 

[killzone90]

when i heard about ADG brass i wanted to give them a try because they where from kentucky and close to my house. I talked to them on the phone and ordered 50 300 win mag brass. When i got the package in the mail they where nice enough to send 5 308 brass to try out also becuase i had told them i had a few 308s i load for all the time and will be needing brass for those next. They sent me a few to jut try to see how i liked them. i have shot the 300 win brass a few times and really like them. Ill be ordering 308 brass next

 

[FatBoy]

Normal load is 73.8 Retumbo over 230 OTM in Win brass.

Had something interesting happen today. Wasn't running a chrono, just shooting for pressure and here is the rub. Run first three at 72.8, no pressure. Run three at 73.4, no or acceptable pressure. Run 3x 73.8 and I get some swiping and one has flow into the ejector I can catch with my fingernail so I stop and go back to the 73.4, both flow. I go back to the 72.8, both flow. WTF?

I'm not sure if I have a carbon ring (100+ suppressed w/o cleaning) Maybe fouling or heat? Good news is, it shoots. Before I clean I'm going to take a few Win cases put and see if they flow. If not, this brass may be soft. Gonna be a few weeks before I get back out.

 

[408w]

Bought a bag of federal recently and toss a lot of cases right off the bat. Cheap hunting brass at best. Wtf crushed necks, creased sides.

 

[truck driver]

Normal load is 73.8 Retumbo over 230 OTM in Win brass.

Had something interesting happen today. Wasn't running a chrono, just shooting for pressure and here is the rub. Run first three at 72.8, no pressure. Run three at 73.4, no or acceptable pressure. Run 3x 73.8 and I get some swiping and one has flow into the ejector I can catch with my fingernail so I stop and go back to the 73.4, both flow. I go back to the 72.8, both flow. WTF?

I'm not sure if I have a carbon ring (100+ suppressed w/o cleaning) Maybe fouling or heat? Good news is, it shoots. Before I clean I'm going to take a few Win cases put and see if they flow. If not, this brass may be soft. Gonna be a few weeks before I get back out.

Could it have been the smaller case capacity of the ADG brass which caused the pressure signs you saw also?

 

[FatBoy]

Maybe, but pressure in the 72.8 loads didn't come on until the rifle was hot and I wasn't leaving cases in the chamber more than maybe 5-8 seconds. The pressure seemed to come on as the heat increased, regardless of the charge.

Here is a 5 shot group with 73.4. I shot 3, moved a box and shot 3 of the 73.8 and then moved back and shot the last two.

And here is the 3 shot of 73.8.

All off a bipod in the dirt, rear bad laying on an orange hunting beanie to get the height. I am not a group shooter, so I was pretty happy with these. Brass shows real promise if I can keep from destroying it.

 

[truck driver]

Ok I see what you mean now since Hodgon maxes Retumbo out at 77grs with the 230 OTM.

 

[918v]

Does ADG expand at the belt or in front of the belt?

 

[Dschapp44]

I have 3 firings on a bunch of Hornady 300WM brass and it has worked well for me. I’ve been annealing after every firing but not sure how much of a difference that makes. I did just buy a box of Norma 300WM from midways sale and initial impression is it’s top notch.

 

[FatBoy]

Took the ADG brass back out today. 13 once fired (10 with pressure) 7 virgin and 10 virgin Winchester as a baseline.

Before I rolled I did some measuring.

ADG blows forward .023", .003" more than the Winchester.

Pressure loads were jumping .010". Normally, I jump these .030". I must have left the seater set up for 210SMKs. This, in and of itself could have caused the pressure. All the primers pockets were still tight, to include the 10 that had pressure from before.

Load was 73.8gr Retumbo, 215Ms, 230OTMS. 1x brass got FL sized for .005" shoulder HS (co-headspaced with belt) then neck sized 1/3 neck with a .334" Ti bushing. Roughly. 002" NT. All rounds set to jump .030".

58°F, variable wind at roughly full value out of the right. Base wind was maybe 7mph with let offs to 0 value. My baseline dope is from 90°f, as I like to do final load testing in the heat/humidity of summer. This likely accounts for my low POI today. Just using DOPE from summer, no programs.

Shot the pressure rounds first, so 1x. CCBS at 600y was 1 MOA low. Had 12.5 on the scope, impact was 6" low at 600. Follow up shots with no correction were good. Ran 4 of 5 plates of a KYL rack and moved to 1k.

26.5MOA on the scope. Impact was 10" low on the IPSC steel. Adjusted to 27.25 MOA and shot mixing 1x ADG, virgin ADG and virgin Win. Nice round slightly sub MOA group on the IPSC.

Moved on to 1250. 38.5 moa on the scope. Couldn't hit shit with the ADG. Sent 4. missed 4 on the IPSC. Moved to the win, hit bottom center of the IPSC. Come up to 40MOA, send 3 and I'm 4:4 with win brass. Back to ADG, send one more and finally impact. 1:5. Said fuck it and called it a day, ran the last 4 rounds onto the ipsc at 1k and pulled off the line. Was 11:12, sub MOA at 1k so it was a decent day for me. Lost one to a full let off and tried to shoot through it like a dipshit.

Zero pressure today. I'm not sure if I had a carbon ring, the jump was too small for the 230s or a combination of both, but cleaning and setting the bullets back did the trick.

I don't attribute the misses at 1250 to the ADG brass. I never worked up a load with it, just pressure testing using my win load data so I'm going to run it over a chrono this week and see what my numbers look like. I suspect the SD is a touch high, and that's why 1250 was a circus.

All in all, I'm happy with the new brass. The only issues I've had with it so far have been self induced from laziness.

 

[918v]

Could you list a hi res pic of the ADG belt area?

 

[FatBoy]

Sure, but I don't have dial calipers so I'm not sure what you'll get out if them.

I didn't RSVP before as I'm not sure what to tell you. The brass expands so much at the shoulder during the initial firing there is no way the area above the belt is going to move on the first firing. After that I FL size, all the way to the belt so without dial calipers I'd just be half-assing a measurement.

This is after the first firing, not sized yet.

 

[918v]

Thank You.

They are like normal American brass. They expand in front of the belt not at the belt like Norma.

 

[truck driver]

Thanks for the report. Looking forward to your chronograph readings

 

[FatBoy]

Hope to go tomorrow and do some primer testing. Going to try 9.5Ms, 9.5s and 215Ms. I will also try 73.4 and 73.8gr Retumbo in the ADG. 20 fired and 30 virgin.

All rounds with. 230OTM .030" off the lands. Not going to mess with a seating depth test and probably won't shoot groups as we're going to strap a MSv3 onto my can, I'll just shoot the 2 or 3 plate on a 600y KYL rack. If I can stay on #3, the load will be accurate to 1k. If I see a clear winner I'll take it out further without a chrono. Should be interesting.

 

[FatBoy]

My win loads are running right at 2775fps. SD was a lillte high, as around 17fps. It shot pretty good all the way to 1250. Some more consistancy in MV would certainly help past 1k as I would get maybe 18" of elevation in the group at 1250.

The ADG 0x, 73.4 and 9.5M was running 2745, SD of 9.

ADG 0x, 73.8 9.5 primer was at 2770, SD around 18.

ADG 1x, 73.8 and 9.5M ran average of 2795, SD of 6.

For straight group shooting, virgin ADG wins hands down. I think its due to the full neck tension and more consistency in seating pressure. I need a new neck die, or a typeS FL die for the 300wm. The 3 die comp set isn't cutting it as I can only size a little more than half the neck.

ADG 1x with a 9.5M primer will be my new go to. Shot almost as well as 0X ADG.

The rounds with 9.5 primers shot well but had mid teens SDs and both loads with 0x brass and 215M primers showed early pressure. Now I need to find a source for 9.5Ms.

FWIW, I'm not sure I can shoot the difference between the win and the ADG. To 1k, I can easily hit sub MOA plates with wind down. Past that, the win does pretty well. I didn't take the ADG to 1250 today as it was getting dark. 70 rounds of 300wm with 230s was also plenty for the day. That 30P1 has had a workout this week.

 

[truck driver]

Still curious why you saw pressure with the 215M and not with the 9.5M.
What was the difference in velocity between the two?

 

[FatBoy]

No difference in MV. Pressure wasn't as high as day 1, but was there. I wonder if the softer cup is causing the case head to drag. Can't explain the slight ejector flow. Regardless, if the pockets are still tight I'm not worried. This isn't a BR rifle.

 

[918v]

225/230gr bullets in the 300WM induce a peculiar sensitivity to everything. Brass lasts half as long as it does when using 210’s and lighter. Pressure signs appear way early. It’s like the pressure curve is steeper, but you can’t fit enough of a slower burning powder to maintain the same velocity. So you’re forced to use what you got and deal with the pressure. It sucks.

I don’t think it’s worth the gain in BC over current 210’s.

 

[Bigwheels]

That has not been my experience at all. I have several hundred win brass with 8 firings & are still going. I've ran all the heavies that have come out since before there was any besides the 220smk & have not had any problems with brass or getting them to shoot sub 1/2moa.

 

[FatBoy]

Like any other rifle pushing "heavy for caliber" bullets it comes down to the chamber and barrel.

FWIW, even though the 215 primer loads show some pressure the pockets feel like new. That extra. 003" HS over virgin Win may be the final straw. Or, the brass is softer (if feels softer when I seat and size).

If I were to move to ADG exclusively I would have a reamer made to co-headspace and throat it with a throater to the final OAL for the rifle I chose.

I like the 210SMK but Sierra can kiss my ass for what they cost. I can buy 150 230 bergers for the cost of 100 210SMKs.

 

[918v]

That has not been my experience at all. I have several hundred win brass with 8 firings & are still going. I've ran all the heavies that have come out since before there was any besides the 220smk & have not had any problems with brass or getting them to shoot sub 1/2moa.

How fast are you pushing them out of what barrel length? 2700? 2900? In my rifle a 210 at 2900 is a mild load that lasts 15 reloads. I can’t get past 7-8 with 225’s at that velocity (same jump). I’m not willing to drop the velocity to the next lower node. And I’ve tried H, W, and N brass with a Retumbo and H1000. Same result.

 

[Bigwheels]

My load was a 230 Hybrid tgt @ 2900 out of a 28" Kreiger. Rebarreled @ a bit over 3500rnds & now am running 225ELDM @ 2800. New brl is a Benchmark & just wasn't as accurate @ the 2900 node.

 

[Dan1775]

Thanks for this discussion. I just kind of "backed in" to an as-new 1995 vintage Sendero in 300WM, and ordered some ADG brass for it. So far, using some underpowered sighter handloads with 175smk, IMR4350, and Federal brass, this rifle seems to shoot 1/2-moa. I will be following this with great interest.

 

[axarob44]

I had to back down my normal load with the .300WM ADG brass. Other than that the ADG brass is really nice and you have to be loading really hot to blow out the primer pocket.

 

[aauya]

I agree with this assessment which is why i bought about 1000 of Winchester Miltary (WCC) brass from a military range when i found some. Split it with a friend, then sold my 300WM rifle to build a more competition friendly caliber.

If any of yall are interested, i have several hundred that I fully prepped and never fired that id part with reasonably.
Sorry for the thread Hi-jack. Now back to the OP.

you still have then???