.300 win mag w/208 amax at 1202 yards question

Aimsmall55

Aimsmall55

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 23, 2010
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Madison, Ms
#1
A few weeks ago I went to 1202 yards with a 9 to 10" group shooting a 208 amax out of a 700 pss/ badger ordnance brake and base/rings. Load was 72.9 r22 seated at 3.602" oal. (2933 fps) I am at 300 to 400 feet asl. I was using the G1 form factor with these bullets (.651) and it was spot on. To be on target, I was at 33.1 moa elevation. no wind calls. Question is given the information on which i have conveyed how far do you guys estimate this bullet will hit accurately on it's best day. jbm says 1750 but I hear of guys making well over mile hits, even up to 2200 yards. I realize sectional density plays a big part as well as BC and NO I do not have the berger otms, but I just wanted to get you guys opinions on how far it will go given the best weather conditions.
 
#3
Re: .300 win mag w/208 amax at 1202 yards question

Altitude is your friend.

We shot to nearly 2300 yds. with good accuracy. But we were at 4500 'ish ASL. You won't know what your limits are until you try. You might also play with the 225/230's as they *may* extend your maximum stable range. You are in "little known" territory. Keep good notes.

John
 
#4
Re: .300 win mag w/208 amax at 1202 yards question

Very interesting conversation.
Have you tried it with the 210 Berger VLD's?
Just wondering, this is all greek to me but wouldnt a heavier bullet loose velocity faster than say a 210?
The lighter bullets have a sustained flight at higher speeds I assume but I also assume they are less stable for obvious reasons. I have always thought of the 210 as being sort of a middle of the road bullet weight.
Like I said Im very new to all this, you guys obviously know your stuff, mike
 
#5
Re: .300 win mag w/208 amax at 1202 yards question

I have not tried the 210vld past about 1300yd. I stopped paying for them a few yrs ago. But to your question, its all in the bc. Heavier bullets naturally tend to have a higher bc so they will travel farther with more accuracy. The 225hpbt I use now has a bc of .710, so they will out perform both the 210, & the 208 at extended ranges. But the 208, & 210 shoot flatter @ shorter ranges due to the higher velocity.
 
#6
Re: .300 win mag w/208 amax at 1202 yards question

gotcha, that has been my dilema now for some time. The Berger 210 is expensive and hard to find unless your handloading which I dont. Its so hard to find an affordable factory load that is capable of long distance accuracy and performance short of loading your own. Very difficult situation, mike
 
#7
Re: .300 win mag w/208 amax at 1202 yards question

I've shot the 208s from my 30-06 to almost 1800yd with DA < 1000' and they were hitting (correctably) at distance there. They went through Mach 1.0 around 1425-1450yds and spent the next 300+ entirely subsonic.

I look at the issue you're talking about this way:

If the bullet won't reliably transition sonic then there is a very real "limit" to the shot distance that can be made. With a transition-tolerant projectile the limit is much more on the shooter's ability to deal with the wind calls.

The Berger 180gr VLD's and Hybrids don't transition well below about 4000' ASL and I can actually shoot the 175SMK 7mm FARTHER than I can shoot a Berger 180 Hybrid because eventually there is a hard limit on the Berger, the SMK is limited by me.
 
#8
Re: .300 win mag w/208 amax at 1202 yards question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dyna962007</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Very interesting conversation.
Have you tried it with the 210 Berger VLD's?
Just wondering, this is all greek to me but wouldnt a heavier bullet loose velocity faster than say a 210?
The lighter bullets have a sustained flight at higher speeds I assume but I also assume they are less stable for obvious reasons. I have always thought of the 210 as being sort of a middle of the road bullet weight.
Like I said Im very new to all this, you guys obviously know your stuff, mike</div></div>

I shoot the 210's ALOT. I love them on 500+ yards shots on deer. The 208 will hit hard too though. 4000 ft/lb at muzzle. I've had better luck with 208's past 1k Not to say the 210's won't do better just don't have the $ to spend .50 cents for 1 bullet
 
#9
Re: .300 win mag w/208 amax at 1202 yards question

Not to take any steam away from the OP and the 208's. But I just worked up a load for my 300 win with H-1000 and the new 215 Beger Hybrids. Took six rounds to find a load including the first 3 shot group that went .190" This was prone off a harris pod and a rear bag. The best news is I was able to push them to an average velocity of 3035 fps with an ES of 9. The rifle is a full custom with a 28" 1 in 10 Broughton 5C and this load is in Lapua brass. Load is at Max psi. This was tested across my Oehler 35 at 4100 ft asl. So with a G1 of .696 and a G7 of .356 it makes my dial up from a 100 yard zero only 27.4 moa to get to 1202 yards. I am a long time shooter and fan of the 210 VLD, plus we have sent many 230 OTM's as well. My point in this post is, don't over look the Berger 215 Hybrid if you are going long with a 300 win.

Jeff
 
#10
Re: .300 win mag w/208 amax at 1202 yards question

Funny, Jeff. Was just telling a friend today that the 215's *might* be the perfect compromise if limited to a WM.

Curious... What's your COAL?

John
 
#11
Re: .300 win mag w/208 amax at 1202 yards question

John, 3.633" and I have a longer than standard throat for the 300 win. They fit and feed from my mag box with plenty of room.Plus they will extract loaded too. But who cares? I single feed anyway.
smile.gif
Never have been a spray and pray guy.
shocked.gif
My new rifle (the LRKM) is a single shot.

Jeff
 
#12
Re: .300 win mag w/208 amax at 1202 yards question

Hmmmmm. I was thinking that the Hor 225 HPBT I was shooting was the ultimate ELR for my 300WM. My only issue with them is the short throat on my rifle. I have to use a long drop tube, & I still crunch some powder, but they shoot .192" @ 100 yd, & bout moa @ a mile.
 
#13
Re: .300 win mag w/208 amax at 1202 yards question

Just tested my 215 Hybrid load at distance. Shot 3 cold bore at 1007 yards and the group was just under 4" with a poor aiming point due to faded paint and mirage. Tested them at 725, 482 and the results were awesome. Then I took one to 1464 yards on a 1 1/2 moa rock for a cold bore hit dead center. These bullets fly great, and Berger nailed the BC as far as I can see. Also Bryan's Applied Ballistics program has me tuned in. Antelope beware, your next.

Jeff
 
#14
Re: .300 win mag w/208 amax at 1202 yards question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Altitude is your friend.

We shot to nearly 2300 yds. with good accuracy. But we were at 4500 'ish ASL. You won't know what your limits are until you try. You might also play with the 225/230's as they *may* extend your maximum stable range. You are in "little known" territory. Keep good notes.

John</div></div>

So basically @ 300 to 400 feet asl the air is thicker and pulls bullets down faster. Got that part. Ms sucks! I think I will try the 215 hybrids. As I understand it they are not as "iffy" with relationship to lands as the vlds???
 
#16
Re: .300 win mag w/208 amax at 1202 yards question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think I will try the 215 hybrids. As I understand it they are not as "iffy" with relationship to lands as the vlds??? </div></div>

I have loaded the Berger Hybrids in .284, .308, and .338. For me they have definatly been less sensitive to seating depth as advertised. The 215's shot so well I only tried them at one depth -.040" OL. But I had the 300 gr .338" at many seating depths and they shot good everywhere.

I should have some terminal performance results on the 215's next week.

Jeff
 
#18
Re: .300 win mag w/208 amax at 1202 yards question

let me ask you guys, the VLD's seem to have an awesome rep for their kill qualities with large game.
And are reasonably accurate, and stable.
What is the nature of these hybrid bullets? What are their characteristics, are they more of a highly accurate target cartridge or can they be used for hunting?
mike
 
#19
Re: .300 win mag w/208 amax at 1202 yards question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dyna962007</div><div class="ubbcode-body">let me ask you guys, the VLD's seem to have an awesome rep for their kill qualities with large game.
And are reasonably accurate, and stable.
What is the nature of these hybrid bullets? What are their characteristics, are they more of a highly accurate target cartridge or can they be used for hunting?
mike</div></div>
The hybrids were designed with 2 things in mind. A) less sensitivity to seating depth. B)be stabilized after going subsonic. Dont hold that as the Gospel but I believe that's it. As far as vlds on game..... Imagine taking a boat paddle and whacking a tree. That's what the 210's sound like at 500 + yards
 
#21
Re: .300 win mag w/208 amax at 1202 yards question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VA Gentleman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Broz,

How many grains of H-1000 did you load with the 215 Bergers? </div></div>

All rifles are different. Differences in barrel length, bore diameter, number of lands ect. So my charge may not work for other rifles. I am glad to tell you I started at 75 gr and worked up, but will caution you that this could be too much in brass with lesser volume like RWS. So please start low and work up. Also know this rifle was built with a custom throated reamer and my load is in Lapua 300 win brass. So I hope you understand why I am hesitant to post a final powder charge. This load works well and is safe in my rifle, but I would never want anyone to get hurt trying a hot load at max pressure.

Jeff
 
#22
Re: .300 win mag w/208 amax at 1202 yards question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broz</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VA Gentleman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Broz,

How many grains of H-1000 did you load with the 215 Bergers? </div></div>

All rifles are different. Differences in barrel length, bore diameter, number of lands ect. So my charge may not work for other rifles. I am glad to tell you I started at 75 gr and worked up, but will caution you that this could be too much in brass with lesser volume like RWS. So please start low and work up. Also know this rifle was built with a custom throated reamer and my load is in Lapua 300 win brass. So I hope you understand why I am hesitant to post a final powder charge. This load works well and is safe in my rifle, but I would never want anyone to get hurt trying a hot load at max pressure.

Jeff

</div></div>

Roger that, can't argue with the safe way to work up. I just got some H-1000 and 210 SMK VLDs and just tying to get some reference points of good results like you are seeing. Most of my 300 workups have been hunting loads with 180's and 4350 that are very accurate... but everyone seems to say to go long H-1000 and 200+ Grains are your ticket.

I appreciate your input, and especially the word of caution that we all should realize. Try feeding your first date her worst food and too much of it is not a good thing... and they are all different.

Thanks Broz!
 
#23
Re: .300 win mag w/208 amax at 1202 yards question

300 win is a superb long range killing machine, i miss my scalpel it was a hammer. the 208 would just plow right through wind, i bet the bergers are killer for sure!
 
#25
Re: .300 win mag w/208 amax at 1202 yards question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My 300 win with the 215 Bergers continues to amaze me. One and done. Earlier today. Ranged with a PLRF10.

Jeff

DSC04160Small.jpg
</div></div>

Holy cow, did you take that at 1285 yards? The furthest I've taken down a deer was a little over 900yds, and I haven't been able to duplicate that. What velocity are you getting with the 215's? Might have to get some to try in my 300WSM.
 
#26
Re: .300 win mag w/208 amax at 1202 yards question

Yes, 1285 yards. And minutes before we took one at 1005 yds. Both one shot kills. Standard 300 win with a custom reamer. H-1000 for a MV of 3035 fps @ 4100 ALS
 
#29
Re: .300 win mag w/208 amax at 1202 yards question

Throat was not as long as I wanted. There is still some bearing surface below the neck seated at -.040" off the lans.

The barrel is a 28" Broughton 5C 1 in 10. I give some of the credit for the velocity to my stash of 300 win Lapua brass. But also the 215 Berger Hybrid has less bearing surface than a 210 VLD and I think that contributes too.

Jeff
 
#31
Re: .300 win mag w/208 amax at 1202 yards question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Took my elk at 636 yds with the 215's. No exit but he maybe stumbled 2 steps and was DRT.

Resampled_2012-10-21_10-10-34_697Small.jpg
</div></div>

What's with that puny whitetail rack? Couldn't find a big one?
smile.gif


Nice Bull Jeff!!!!

John
 
#32
Re: .300 win mag w/208 amax at 1202 yards question

Bloody hell!!! thats some awesome shooting mate.

Im gonna build a 300WM and put my spare 30" 1-10T Krieger on it. If you guys are getting those sorts of velocities with a 28", I wanna know what the 30" will give!!!!

What Throat lengths are best with the 208 - 230gr class bullets?
 
#33
Re: .300 win mag w/208 amax at 1202 yards question

Shaun,

You ask a bit of a loaded (no pun intended) question. Optimal throat length (driven by base of the shank at shoulder junction and position of the ogive at that point) in a 300WM chamber for the class of bullets you're considering create a very long COAL. So long, that in most cases magazine fed is not an option.

I have been considering doing a 300WM build using 338LM CIP mags, which give, IIRC, 3.8". That would allow for optimal bullet seating, maximum powder charge and still feed from a magazine. Would have to use an action that will cycle those long rounds too. The other option would be to just go all out and build a 30-375 Ruger (300 Hornady Super Match), which puts the shoulder back further and gives more case volume in a shorter case, buying about .070" of magazine length.

My son's 30" WM throated specially for the 225/230's is done, it's just waiting on a scope. It will single feed and the COAL is 3.75". That's with the Hornady 225 in place. The Berger 215 and 230 TH's put it out well over 3.8" Like you, I cannot wait to see what kind of velocities we get.

John
 
#34
Re: .300 win mag w/208 amax at 1202 yards question

I have a question for you guys.
I am very new to bolt guns and am concerned about a few things I keep hearing.
Mine is a Win 700 in 300 winmag. SS 5R 26" barrel. The gun has been fully blueprinted and on an on.
This was all done before I bought it from a guy on the other side of the country from me.
He said that Berger 210 Hunting VLD's were the perfect round for this gun and he was a handloader.
So I have recently contracted with a guy locally to handload for me a bunch of ammo duplicating the sellers specs that he gave me for handloading.
The problem is that when he used the gun it had the stock internal mag set up.
I am about to have installed a new DBM system that uses AI mags and with all this talk of some rounds being too long and not working with a box mag, and throat length (which I dont understand)issues, I am not sure if I'm going to wind up with a problem or not.
Thanks and sorry for being uninformed in this area
 
#37
Re: .300 win mag w/208 amax at 1202 yards question

I pushed my 208's to 1400 with 4 of 8 hits on steel. Running 2850 only. But when you think a 77gr SMK can hit 1,000 yrds with consistency from my 5R, I think that 208 still has enough ass to go out to a mile even at 2,850.

Im impressed with the 208 in 300WM.
 
#38
Re: .300 win mag w/208 amax at 1202 yards question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dyna962007</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a question for you guys.
I am very new to bolt guns and am concerned about a few things I keep hearing.
Mine is a Win 700 in 300 winmag. SS 5R 26" barrel. The gun has been fully blueprinted and on an on.
This was all done before I bought it from a guy on the other side of the country from me.
He said that Berger 210 Hunting VLD's were the perfect round for this gun and he was a handloader.
So I have recently contracted with a guy locally to handload for me a bunch of ammo duplicating the sellers specs that he gave me for handloading.
The problem is that when he used the gun it had the stock internal mag set up.
I am about to have installed a new DBM system that uses AI mags and with all this talk of some rounds being too long and not working with a box mag, and throat length (which I dont understand)issues, I am not sure if I'm going to wind up with a problem or not.
Thanks and sorry for being uninformed in this area </div></div>

If you provide the OAL of the reload, someone can tell you if they will fit. my thoughts are this, if this reload works , well great. If they don't, understand that Bergers are very sensitive to reloading specs and there are easier bullets to make fly straight in your gun. Bergers are awesome , but I never got them under an inch. Good luck .
 
#47
Wow... Talk about back from the dead... Started this thread in Oct. of 2012. [MENTION=21355]Broz[/MENTION] , because of your results from the Broughton bbls, I ordered a 1:10 30" finished Broughton 5c and put it on a trued 700 action in an AICS and added a Thruster brake, Jewell , and a Bushnell XRS. My go to's now are the 230 OTM and 215 hybrid. I shoot the 215 and 230 with Retumbo and have the 230 way over 2900 and the 215 at 3010 fps. They are incredibly accurate. Shot a doe at 660 yards with the 230 and WOW. I don't know why Berger says don't kill em with the hybrids but it sure as hell does the job. I appreciate you sharing a little bit of your data... Or else I wouldn't have this HAMMER. Thanks again



It's behind the GAP , it's in the AICS



It compared to a 5r MILSPEC in .300 win mag with a 26" bb
 
#48
Aimsmall55 said:
Wow... Talk about back from the dead... Started this thread in Oct. of 2012. [MENTION=21355]Broz[/MENTION] , because of your results from the Broughton bbls, I ordered a 1:10 30" finished Broughton 5c and put it on a trued 700 action in an AICS and added a Thruster brake, Jewell , and a Bushnell XRS. My go to's now are the 230 OTM and 215 hybrid. I shoot the 215 and 230 with Retumbo and have the 230 way over 2900 and the 215 at 3010 fps. They are incredibly accurate. Shot a doe at 660 yards with the 230 and WOW. I don't know why Berger says don't kill em with the hybrids but it sure as hell does the job. I appreciate you sharing a little bit of your data... Or else I wouldn't have this HAMMER. Thanks again

You, Sir have a hammer! And are not a bad shot either. Damned impressive. I would buy 3 or 4 more barrels just like that one to have on hand. What do you think barrel life will be shooting the 230s at that speed?



It's behind the GAP , it's in the AICS



It compared to a 5r MILSPEC in .300 win mag with a 26" bb
Click to expand...

You, Sir have a hammer! And are not a bad shot either. Damned impressive. I would buy 3 or 4 more barrels just like that one to have on hand. What do you think barrel life will be shooting the 230s at that speed?
 
#49
jfields said:
You, Sir have a hammer! And are not a bad shot either. Damned impressive. I would buy 3 or 4 more barrels just like that one to have on hand. What do you think barrel life will be shooting the 230s at that speed?
Click to expand...

I don't know , maybe 1500 rounds?? I don't shoot it that much for reasons such as that and I've got several other nice LR rifles that are less wear on the bbl, cheaper to shoot and good to 1400 yards. I built it because the .338 Lapua costs were killing me and with the 230 at that speed the ballistics and energy were almost identical to 1500 yards. Then the 338 overtakes it. But where I win is in my wallet.... Brass, powder, bullets ect... For the most part all cheaper. And I've got a stick that still has enough energy to bring down a Whitetail at 1500 yards
 
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