.308 medium range target/hunting bullet suggestion

[bbaley]

Hi all,
I'll try to make this as un-vague (least convoluted) as possible !

I have a new .308 build coming, that I will describe as multipurpose. Meaning I intend to;
1. shoot medium range accurately with precision (<1000 yds)
2. hunt medium sized game (deer, antelope, possibly Elk closer)
3. develop and load a single "all-purpose" round for MY gun that suits #1 and #2 as best as possible.

For reference, the rifle is a custom build, 26" 1:11 twist

Based on what I have researched so far, I have the following possibilities which I would appreciate input on:

1. Berger 175 and 185 VLD Hunting. reported to be very intolerant of "jump" and also sometimes not as effective a kill. awesome performance BC/LR. reported difficult to load for
2. Sierra 180 GameKing. reported horrible performance LR but decent hunting. easy to load for
3. Nosler 180 Accubond. good BC, awesome reported hunting performance. reported easy to load for

These choices are based on;
1. calculated/estimated <miller> stability of "close to 1.7" {not too high, not too low)
2. BC, weight, retained energy and wind effect
3. AVAILABILITY

Note #3, I am willing to adjust some performance for availability. In trying to come up with "one load" this is key.

Ok, now the "why"...
1. I picked 170-185 grain for BC, retained energy and wind (LR+hunting)
2. It HAS to support many rounds of best-price/performance loading and shooting (that's why I picked a .308, not hot loads, salt-nitrided, blah blah blah)
3. the .308 170-185gr support a lot of powders for accurate loads (availability)

And the questions:

1. Are the Berger VLDs really that hard to develop a load for ?
2. Are there other options that I am missing that meet the criteria ?

Equipment: Lee classic cast single stage with L-nL conversion, Redding Competition seating die, Redding neck/FL die, Hornady Comparator, Hornady OAL gauge/headspace kit/modified cases.

Anyway, I sure appreciate your putting up with my rambling to this point....
I DID GOOGLE I swear ;-) I could not find anything about developing a single hunting/LR(Medium range) round for .308...

Cheers! (apologies in advance for stupidity or lack of understanding)

 

[308sako]

Many years of hunting the 308 have convinced me that for a game bullet this cartridge should not exceed a weight of 165 grains.



Please refer to my last post in this thread.

 

[bbaley]

would you mind elaborating on why? "Many years of hunting the 308 have convinced me that for a game bullet this cartridge should not exceed a weight of 165 grains"

 

[Brux]

Like he said 165 GR Nosler ballistic tip.They are accurate as hell and kill shit.JMO

 

[bbaley]

Like he said 165 GR Nosler ballistic tip.They are accurate as hell and kill shit.JMO

I get what you are saying. Unfortunately I am one of those nerd types and keep asking for technical information to backup opinions.
For instance, what does "accurate as hell" mean? ;-)
and, what does "kill shit" mean ?

I'm not being an ass.. I really am just looking for real-world information and it's much appreciated !

 

[Blackbrush]

180 Sierra Gameking works great out to 1000 for paper

178 Amax, 175 LRX and possibly 190 ABLR should they prove available

Berger 180 Classic Hunter

 

[ZiaHunter]

We have been using Berger 155 and 165 VLD's exclusively for hunting the past several years. They have been lethal on elk, oryx and deer. Frankly we haven't had issues with seating depth as commonly reported and have been extremely accurate. I guided my friend on an elk hunt this October and he took this 5x5 at 521 yards with a single shot with a 270 Win with a 150 gr. VLD. The damage in the body cavity was extensive and the elk only took a few steps after being hit then went tits up.

 

[selfbowhunter]

How about the 155 lapua scenar? I think they are a VERY versatile bullet.

 

[DaemonAssassin]

For hunting deer in the woods of WV, I have always used the 165 SGK. I has a decent BC and can penetrate leaves and small branches without much if any deflection. The 165 SGK offers some good expansion in the body and has a decent sized exit wound. Internally the temporary wound cavity is absolutely devastating, while the permanent wound cavity is equally as devastating. I have taken many deer with the 165 SGK on a piece of 308 brass.

I have no experience with the Nosler or Berger bullets you listed, just the 165 SGK.

 

[Painless300]

Berger, Nosler, Hornaday or Sierra will all do a great job, you just need to try them and see which one your rifle likes. I personally like the 165 Game Kings for Deer and Accubonds for Elk, I am lucky in that my rifle shoots both very well.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

#2145 Sierra will more than fill your requirements.

 

[roggom]

Check out Nathan Fosters website, he has some very good data. He has made Terminal Ballistics a career of sorts. .308 Winchester (7.62 NATO)

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I don't do that much hunting/shooting, and consider load development to be an effort that's out of proportion to its ultimate usage. Thus, I prefer using factory ammo where applicable.

My preferences go toward Remington Core-Lokt and Hornady Superformance hunting loads, and I seriously suggest that for the hunter who isn't out hunting in all four seasons, factory ammo makes considerable sense.

Anyone who handloads for accuracy understands that any cost savings are largely imaginary, and that hunting ammo is probably the least cost-effective application for load development.

Once one adds in the load development costs, the shot-per-shot cost of actual rounds used for hunting becomes very steep, making factory ammo more desirable for additional reasons. Consider the expense of obtaining components and doing load development.

For hunting ammo, which usually employs more expensive bullets, load development costs could run well in excess of $100. Even at $100, harvesting two or three deer each year comes out at well above $25 per round. I can spend that $100 a lot more effectively for proven ammo like Superformance and Core-Lokt.

I would also never use my own handloads in any situation where litigation could be a logical offshoot. It's just a whole additional can of worms when lawyers get introduced to unintended outcomes.

Having once been a licensed insurance agent/CLU candidate, I was schooled in the potentials of unintended outcomes. It was a true eye-opener; when things go bad, our medical and litigation industries can make things get damned expensive in a hurry. When it comes to liabilities, I'd much rather leave it to the factory ammo manufacturers to do the explaining than to argue out solo the advantages of making my ammunition more effectively lethal to a litigant's attorney and the court.

Words like "cost" and "effective" really do need to be considered in a far wider context than most of us ever consider.

Greg

 

[bbaley]

Check out Nathan Fosters website, he has some very good data. He has made Terminal Ballistics a career of sorts. .308 Winchester (7.62 NATO)

Awesome link. thank you very much !

 

[bruddah]

Good thread.

 

[SWThomas]

168 or 178 AMAX. All the bullet you'll ever need for target and game.

 

[Aimsmall55]

Don't forget the 185 classic hunter from Berger. GREAT BULLET and very easy to make shoot!!

 

[bruddah]

168 or 178 AMAX. All the bullet you'll ever need for target and game.

I've heard others say they blow up too much and do lots of damage to the meat and don't penetrate well because of this.

Anyone else have any experience hunting with the Amax?

 

[ptaylortx]

I've used 165 SGK BTHP on deer for years with awesome performance when it comes to killing. A little less than .75 moa out to 300 yards.

 

[mzvarner]

168 or 178 AMAX. All the bullet you'll ever need for target and game.

My buddy built a ballistics box using a gallon of water and phone books to capture projectiles to see how they expanded. I shot one of my 178gr amax into it and I don't think its a very good hunting round. Sure the projectile was mangled upon recovery but the jacket seperated from the core so I imagine that this has an affect on wound cavity and ethical implications as well. I'll post pics of the projectile later.

 

[DaemonAssassin]

My buddy built a ballistics box using a gallon of water and phone books to capture projectiles to see how they expanded. I shot one of my 178gr amax into it and I don't think its a very good hunting round. Sure the projectile was mangled upon recovery but the jacket seperated from the core so I imagine that this has an affect on wound cavity and ethical implications as well. I'll post pics of the projectile later.

I have about 500 of the 168gr AMAX and am curious to see your results.

 

[Aimsmall55]

The amax will ABSOLUTELY kill a deer and will kill them very well. I've killed them with 140's from a 6.5 creedmor , 178, 208, 155 in .308. Personally, I would rather shoot a deer at range with an amax. I don't know about this "test" conducted in water, but my "test" was real world and the deer were shot, most dropped, those that didn't never ran very far. I think 40 yards was the most. The AMAX retains its weight as good as any "hunting bullet". Example , shot a buck quartering towards me at about 200 yards with my 6.5 creedmor and a factory 140. The bullet hit just above and to the right of his front left shoulder. I found the bullet lodged in his skin that covered his hind quarter still intact and mushroomed. So it literally went all the way threw and didn't break up. The 208 out of a .300 win mag.... I don't even think I even need to discuss how bad ass they are

 

[Aimsmall55]

I've heard others say they blow up too much and do lots of damage to the meat and don't penetrate well because of this.

Anyone else have any experience hunting with the Amax?

If an amax is bad for meat damage then a Berger vld that is put into the "meaty spot" is a freaking frag grenade. Literally

 

[MarkCO]

Deer are easy to kill, so I tend to disregard stories related to such. Antelope (actually Pronghorn) are a bit tougher and elk are significantly tougher. I've seen elk center punched (usually calibers under .30) and go 5 miles when the same shot on deer has them DRT. Match bullets may or may not be legal so be sure to check the regs. IMHO, the Nosler Accubond in 165 is the choice when you add in elk, the Ballistic Tip (Hunting) is a decent choice, but not as tough as the AB. My 12 year old killed his deer at 45 yards and his elk at 350 yards with a TC in .308 this year.

 

[Huckleberry75]

Don't forget about Berger's 168gn Classic Hunter. It has a g1 of .496 and puts the hammer on whitetail. Mag friendly and very jump tolerant.

 

[mzvarner]

I have about 500 of the 168gr AMAX and am curious to see your results.

here is a pic as promised. And to the others, I am not saying that Amax don't work. They clearly do and there is a thread some where here with pic upon pic of kills made with them. From my understanding, you don't want a bullet that turns into a "frag grenade" as it does not do the same damage as a bullet that stays together and mushrooms causing a bigger wound cavity as opposed to a few cuts and minor trauma that may not lead to an ethical kill.

I am glad that you have "real world test results" that prove they work fine. In all honesty a well placed 22lr will kill a deer too. I understand that water and phone books are not the same as flesh, muscle and bone, but it gives you a better idea of how they behave as opposed to prospecting while punching paper.

any ways, here is a photo...

 

[Aimsmall55]

here is a pic as promised. And to the others, I am not saying that Amax don't work. They clearly do and there is a thread some where here with pic upon pic of kills made with them. From my understanding, you don't want a bullet that turns into a "frag grenade" as it does not do the same damage as a bullet that stays together and mushrooms causing a bigger wound cavity as opposed to a few cuts and minor trauma that may not lead to an ethical kill.

I am glad that you have "real world test results" that prove they work fine. In all honesty a well placed 22lr will kill a deer too. I understand that water and phone books are not the same as flesh, muscle and bone, but it gives you a better idea of how they behave as opposed to prospecting while punching paper.

any ways, here is a photo...

Cool. Your right about the .22 and shot placement. I apologize if I came across as a jerk. That was not my intention. I just re read what i wrote and sorry if it was arrogant. With all due respect to MarkCo... A 208 amax fired from a magnum .30 cal will kill 99% of the land animals in North America. I've seen too much carnage from it (even on HUGE pigs in the 400# range) to know that the bullet is devastating on whatever it hits.

 

[farmerbrown]

I have to say I'm a fan of Ballistic tips.
I've shot a very large number of (smallish to large) critters with them.
All calibres from 224 to 308.

They are accurate and kill like greased lightning.

If you are talking .308, then the 125 is deadly on smaller game like goats, etc.
150 for pigs, but 165 great as well for larger things.
Only limited experience with them on horse, cattle, camel, donkey etc, but expect they would do very well - probably ideal with 180 for cattle etc.

A lot of big bullets from a big gun will kill fairly well if all goes well.
But I steer away from HPMK and the like for animals.
They deserve to be taken with the best you have.

I really don't accept stories that a bullet is great if an animal only ran 500 yards and it was a perfect result. Basically, if the calibre is sufficient and the bullet is good, a few yards is the most they should travel (unless it's a heart shot).

Accuracy? I normally used Remington varmint profile factory barrel or better.
Some custom rifles such as 7mm-08 Sako. Again BTs. Used to like to dust crows with this custom Sako and 120 gn BT.

A bit of tuning of load powder and it was .75" or so over the hood of a truck for most packages. Better at the range. The .22/250 and .243 a bit better.

More than enough for a practical range limit of maybe 400 yards (limit was visibility at night or vegetation).

The .22/250 with 55 gn BT. Used to practice with half bricks at 350 yards with them.
But they kill like crazy. All head or heart/lung shots of course, so I suppose most bullets would.

Now loading for friends that hunt deer with 7x64 and we are using Sierra GK (140 gn) and getting very good results as well (although I suggested BT to them at the beginning).

But again, I'm talking killing things, not eating 'em.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[MarkCO]

With all due respect to MarkCo... A 208 amax fired from a magnum .30 cal will kill 99% of the land animals in North America. I've seen too much carnage from it (even on HUGE pigs in the 400# range) to know that the bullet is devastating on whatever it hits.

Did I say something that is in conflict with that? I am confused...

 

[Aimsmall55]

Did I say something that is in conflict with that? I am confused...

No no, not at all. I was just responding to your reference that whitetails are not in the same league, if you will, as antelope or elk. Not disagreeing at all

 

[groundhog2002]

I've killed a hundred or so white tail with my 6bR, 75 GRAIN Vmax. DRT. Impressive bullet.

 

[308sako]

would you mind elaborating on why? "Many years of hunting the 308 have convinced me that for a game bullet this cartridge should not exceed a weight of 165 grains"

see below

 

[bbaley]

.... So my observations of quite literally hundreds of big game animals being shot with the .308 generate the above statement. For the lighter weight big-game animals, the ballistic tip, for the heaviest big-game animals the Accubond or Partition or the Swift A-frame, satisfaction guaranteed with proper placement.

See, i get what you are saying... based on your experience it IS. but you are not giving me any technical or otherwise transferable information other than "i have shot many animals with [them]" - so I have no data with which to make a decision other than you say so.

 

[bbaley]

Don't forget about Berger's 168gn Classic Hunter. It has a g1 of .496 and puts the hammer on whitetail. Mag friendly and very jump tolerant.

I like that option !

 

[Huckleberry75]

I like that option !

I hit a doe facing me, in the neck with one. The bullet traveled back through the neck and abdominal cavity just under the spine, exiting with a quarter sized hole after traveling ~2 1/2' through the doe. I didn't end up gutting her, as you could tell that a hand grenade went off in there.

 

[308sako]

See, i get what you are saying... based on your experience it IS. but you are not giving me any technical or otherwise transferable information other than "i have shot many animals with [them]" - so I have no data with which to make a decision other than you say so.

You're right, you can't be helped by me.... Sorry to have tried to convey a simple basic thought.

 

[Chanonry]

What about Berger 185 Classic Hunter then? Hybrid ogive supposedly removes the issues you have with the VLD…