.308 Win Reloading Problems

[Justin30hate]

Hey guys I am new to the threads, but I would really appreciate any help you guys could offer.

I have a custom Remington 700 with a Bartlein 5R 1:11.25" twist barrel 26" in an XLR Envy chassis.

I know it shoots really well. This is 4 shots at 100 yards with Federal Gold Medal Match 175 Sierra.

This is a 4 shot group at 300 yards with hand loads.
VIRGIN Lapua Brass
CCI BR-2
42.9 grains of Varget
175 Sierra TMK
2680 fps with SD of 8

So I know that its a tack driver. My problem is that once I resize the brass I can not get anything close to these results. I am using a Redding full length sizer (non-bushing) die. The gun is a 308 win tac match chamber. I set the headspace back .0015", I trim them to 2.005" every firing, I checked the neck tension and it is about .002". I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong that is giving me such inconsistencies after I resize. Any ideas?

 

[SporterII]

FGMM brass may be tough to get right.
Take a sized case, put it aside.
Clean and lube the next case.
Lube the neck inside and out.
Now size this like the previous and compare notes especially your set back or headspace dimension.

 

[KZP]

Are you getting a lot of resistance against the button when pulling the brass out of the die?

 

[Justin30hate]

FGMM brass may be tough to get right.
Take a sized case, put it aside.
Clean and lube the next case.
Lube the neck inside and out.
Now size this like the previous and compare notes especially your set back or headspace dimension.

I am actually using Lapua cases for my reloads. I switched to FGMM loaded ammo just for the time being because I couldn't get my reloads right. I've tried different types of brass, they all shoot great when they are virgin but after resizing them after the first firing it becomes super inconsistent. I will definitely give that a try though to see how different they come out to be. Thanks!!

 

[Justin30hate]

Are you getting a lot of resistance against the button when pulling the brass out of the die?

Yes I do get a lot of resistance!

 

[KZP]

Yes I do get a lot of resistance!

Sounds like the inside of your neck case is not lubed enough. This may be galling the inside of the necks or distorting them slightly.

 

[Justin30hate]

Sounds like the inside of your neck case is not lubed enough. This may be galling the inside of the necks or distorting them slightly.

Ok, yeah I don't really make sure they are lubed really well on the inside. I will try that and see if that helps. Thank you.

 

[KZP]

Might want to also take off your button and see if brass has caked itself on. I have a acid solution I use to clean my free float carbide button in the case of brass sticking from too little lube.

That is another option as well if you stick with button resizing. Redding makes a free floating carbide button. They claim you don't need lube, but you do. It self centers to the resized neck which is nice because I doubt the stems are really all that straight.

 

[Justin30hate]

Might want to also take off your button and see if brass has caked itself on. I have a acid solution I use to clean my free float carbide button in the case of brass sticking from too little lube.

That is another option as well if you stick with button resizing. Redding makes a free floating carbide button. They claim you don't need lube, but you do. It self centers to the resized neck which is nice because I doubt the stems are really all that straight.

Do you know of a good place to look for the free floating carbide button?

 

[KZP]

Try midway, ebay, brownells, cabelas etc.

1. Redding 99307 - includes new stem & button
2. Redding 49307 - just button

I bought just the button on ebay and put it on my current stem.

 

[Onyx Z]

Just FYI, the expander button typically stretches the headspace when pulled out to size the neck. When I FL size with non-bushing die calibers (223 Rem, 300BLK, etc.), I remove the expander button and use an expander mandrel die separately. It adds another step to the process, but it provides more consistency for match grade ammo.

If I'm loading plinking ammo, I could care less about consistency and the expander button goes back in. I'm going for volume at that point.

 

[Justin30hate]

Just FYI, the expander button typically stretches the headspace when pulled out to size the neck. When I FL size with non-bushing die calibers (223 Rem, 300BLK, etc.), I remove the expander button and use an expander mandrel die separately. It adds another step to the process, but it provides more consistency for match grade ammo.

If I'm loading plinking ammo, I could care less about consistency and the expander button goes back in. I'm going for volume at that point.

Do you recommend an affordable expander mandrel die?

 

[Onyx Z]

Do you recommend an affordable expander mandrel die?

I use the RCBS expander die that I have modified to size the neck around .306. ~$30 just about anywhere. It can flare the neck also.

 

[Justin30hate]

Just FYI, the expander button typically stretches the headspace when pulled out to size the neck. When I FL size with non-bushing die calibers (223 Rem, 300BLK, etc.), I remove the expander button and use an expander mandrel die separately. It adds another step to the process, but it provides more consistency for match grade ammo.

If I'm loading plinking ammo, I could care less about consistency and the expander button goes back in. I'm going for volume at that point.

Do you recommend an affordable expander mandrel die?

 

[Justin30hate]

I use the RCBS expander die that I have modified to size the neck around .306. ~$30 just about anywhere. It can flare the neck also.

thanks I will look into that as well.

 

[DrewC]

Get the 21st century titanium turning mandrel and die for it. Sets .002 neck tension and is very easy on the brass

 

[Deleted member 10043]

OMG, It's a 308. All you need is standard dies. And a Lee collet die for in between FL sizing. Run the case twice on the collet rotating the case 1/4 turn in between. Also, don't trim brass every time. Wait until they exceed max. I would ditch match primers. It is not a compressed load and no over bore.

 

[LANCER]

I can confirm that using the expander button on a FL resizing operation will stretch and invalidate any careful headspacing setup. When you size, regardless of how carefully you've set up your bump value, the moment that button pulls through the neck you will undo everything you just did. It works fine for plinker loads, but for precision, I would get rid of the expander ball, and use a mandrel die to set tension. My brass will stretch a full 10 thousands if I leave the ball in.
Many options out there:
1. 21st century shooting turning mandrel (there is an expanding one also, which is used for when you want to turn the necks. This one sets 1 thou of tension. Get the turning mandrel which sets tension to 2 thou)
2. Lyman M-Die. This is the same as above, and sets 2 thou of tension.
3. Lee Collet Neck Sizing die. This one is amazing in removing runout or lessening it. It also squeezes the neck brass against a ground rod effectively setting the neck thickness as consistently as possible, eliminating the need to neck-turn for those that do.
4. RCBS expanding mandrel die. I've never used it, but does the same as the Lyman M-Die.
5. Redding competition die set or national match die set: Includes a Body Die, (full length-sizes only the body, not touching the neck. You then use the bushing neck die to set your tension.) and also has the micrometer seater die. You can also get the small base body die alone which is what I did. I then use the Lee Collet Neck die to set my necks perfectly to 2 thou and concentric to the rest of the case. I had 5-6 thou of runout in my brass, and have reduced it to 2 thou or less.

For bolt guns, I would highly recommend doing the 2 step process of body/shoulder bumping in one op., and then neck sizing using one of the above options. You can remove your expander, and then buy the Lee Collet Neck sizer or a mandrel expander. I even use this method when processing my 308 in volume on my 1050. There is a 21st Century turning mandrel in station 7 after resize/trim.

 

[Bantam1]

Did you perform your load development with virgin brass? If so check it again now that it has been fired and sized. You also may need to play with seating depth a little. The jump in that stock Rem chamber is massive.

I used to just use a full length sizer with the carbide button in my 308. Now I use a body die and a bushing neck sizer. I just starting playing with the mandrel expander die and will see if there is any difference in performance. I run .002"tension with the bushing and had zero problems.

 

[wvlapua]

Add powder to get back in the node. Your fire-formed brass has more volume now that the case has been blown out. My load is 44.9g Varget in Lapua brass with 175 smk.

Chrono your virgin brass and load the fire-formed to that velocity to get back in the node.

Fgmm 175 load is 41.75g IMR 4064 in fed brass by the way. It also hammers in my rifle.

 

[Doom]

You should be around 42 .1 +/- grs of Varget to put you in a lower node that approximates the 175 FGMM in Lapua brass.

I would also recommend the Lee Collet die, with either full length sizing or only neck sizing. It reduces runout significantly.

The TMK is also more sensitive to seating depth that the normal SMK. You may want to look at experimenting with the seating depth.

 

[Dave62677]

Lee Collet die get me .002 runout

 

[bax]

Assuming that I can correctly read your caliper, you shot a 1.112-inch group at 300 yards. Divide 1.112 by 3 equals .371 inches. Divide 1.112 by 1.0472 equals .354 MOA. This is mid-three from a .308 shot off a bipod. Please explain the problem.

 

[TriggerHappy0125]

To me you have too many unknowns and you need to control them all. I would take 10 round of virgin brass and measure everything: headspace, brass length, neck OD, neck ID, etc. Prep 10 rounds of fired brass to match your virgin brass specs as closely as possible. You should be able to get within +/- 0.001-0.002 on all dims. As suggested, use a mandrel to get the correct neck tension that matches your virgin brass. The goal being 10 rounds of virgin brass that matches the loads you have demonstrated perform well, and 10 rounds of resized brass that match as close as you can get them.No matter what happens at the range you will be able to either prove out a process for future loads, or eliminate a significant number of variables that will get you closer to the root cause.