.308 Winchester

[generalzip]

178 -Max
Lapua Small Rifle Primer Brass
S&B SR Primers
43g Varget

10 shot group at 100 yards

COAL? I'm assume amax bullet? Barrel length? Twist? Maker? Curious as I'm thinking of developing something similar


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[Deadshot2]

178 -Max
Lapua Small Rifle Primer Brass
S&B SR Primers
43g Varget

10 shot group at 100 yards

Good looking! I noticed you're using the Lapua "Palma" brass. Have you tired this combo with the standard Lapua brass with the LRP? If so, any differences?

 

[Deltagunner00]

My bad guys...just noticed I left out the "A" in A-Max.

26" Criterion. 1/10 twist
COAL - 2.804
Stevens 200 Action

I have not used the Lapua LR primer brass. Figured I would try this Palma brass since all other brass I shoot is LR primer.

Pic of the rifle:

 

[Speedster00]

Has anyone used IMR4320? I searched and cant find load data in this thread for it. Lymans has it listed but doesnt say what rifle was used. Im trying to work up loads for LR308 24" stainless HB 1-10 with 150gr bullets.

 

[sjb269]

IMR 4320 is right next to Varget on the burn rate chart... I'd feel comfortable starting at 44g with a 150 grain. Work up looking for pressure signs and accuracy sweet spots and use 48g ish as a max load.

 

[Seekers]

Has anyone used IMR4320? I searched and cant find load data in this thread for it. Lymans has it listed but doesnt say what rifle was used. Im trying to work up loads for LR308 24" stainless HB 1-10 with 150gr bullets.

This shows load data for IMR 4320 .308

http://www.imrpowder.com/data/rifle/308win-2005apr03.php

 

[Gregb]

Got a bunch of load data for 308 1-10 twist on here

http://m.youtube.com/user/GLgunsandgear

 

[Speedster00]

Gotcha. Thanks.

 

[Joseph Floerke]

I shoot lapua palma brass 47gr varget with Berger 168 classic hunter.

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[George63]

LT-32 powder for .308

like the 223 this looks like a powder for the lighter bullets in 308

I used the heaviest brass I had: IAI that went over 190 gr with primer
150 gr SMK
wolf prime
2.79 oal
40.3 gr LT-32

 

[A5M]

168 gr Sierra MK
Federal brass (fired GMM)
IMR 4064 43.7 grains
OAL 2.75
Rifle: FN SPR A5M
5 round group, center to center, .214 @ 100 yards

 

[FunkBass2008]

175 Sierra MK
Winchester brass
CCI BR2
Varget 43.5gr
26" Rock 1:11.25
2710 FPS

 

[Deadshot2]

175 gr SMK with IMR 8208 XBR

175 gr SMK
Lapua 1X Fired Brass F/L sized
CCI-BR2 Primer
42.2 Gr IMR 8208 XBR
2690 fps SD 10.9 Mean Absolute Deviation (MAD) 7.6 ES 28.8
2.825 OAL

24" Benchmark Barrel with 5-C rifling.

The target is 6" diameter and the distance, 300 yards.

The shot at 3 O'clock was "cold bore".

There are two bullets in the lower left hole in the main group and this was verified by the hole in the backer the stick on target was attached to.

Since the first shot was a cold bore shot I only measured the group of four.

Center to Center .645" .218 MOA
Average to Center .298" .093 MOA

Even when adding in the Cold Bore shot the group measured 1.695" .540 MOA but the Average to Center only grew to .164 MOA.

Nice thing about this powder (besides the apparent accuracy) is the fact that it's supposed to be temperature insensitive. Great for my part of the world. Temps tend to remain in a narrow 50 degree band. Supposedly this powder shows less than 20 fps variation over a 100 degree spread in ambient.

 

[Deadshot2]

How many here are using the Tula large rifle primers? Results?

I used a lot of the Wolf LR primers and had great results but have yet to break into a case of 5,000 Tula's. Just wondering what I'll see with the usual .308 powders like Varget, IMR-4064, IMR 8208 XBR, RL-15, etc.

 

[Aimsmall55]

Does anybody have any good loads for the 185 OTM? I've got Varget, pp2000mr, cfe223, r17. Will be shooting them out of a 28" bartlein with 1:11.25. Lapua brass

I figured cfe and pp2000mr will have them zinging. But I like Varget for its stability.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Deadshot2]

Does anybody have any good loads for the 185 OTM? I've got Varget, pp2000mr, cfe223, r17. Will be shooting them out of a 28" bartlein with 1:11.25. Lapua brass

I figured cfe and pp2000mr will have them zinging. But I like Varget for its stability.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I had great results with the RL-17. My recipe was for an old barrel so I tossed it. New barrel now but no RL-17 or 185 "Bergies". I was using the Juggernaughts.

 

[Irokcrawl]

175gn smk's
44gn varget (target shows 43 but after checking my box it was 44gn)
Not chronographed
CCI 250 primers
Coal-2.810 (writing in pic is wrong but now I seat them a good bit longer and getting better long range results)
20" 5r barrel
Aprox 65*
47% humidity
Aprox 500feet above see level
5 shot group of course but the range in was at was only 97 yards..

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[Down South]

How many here are using the Tula large rifle primers? Results?

I used a lot of the Wolf LR primers and had great results but have yet to break into a case of 5,000 Tula's. Just wondering what I'll see with the usual .308 powders like Varget, IMR-4064, IMR 8208 XBR, RL-15, etc.

The Tula primers work well, thats what im shooting now with the 185 juggernauts and Varget in Lapua brass. They go bang everytime and give low ES/SD numbers. I like em.

 

[Skigolfmike]

Has anyone tried the Berger 168 Hybrids yet? I got some, but I'm not all that impressed yet. My normal load is 43.5 gr of Varget with the 175 OTMs that I have running 2720. I loaded the 168s at 44.0, but it's like they are shooting slower than the 175s. i.e. 4.4 mil at 600 v. 4.1 mil for the 175s. JBM says about 2625 for the 168s. Doesn't make sense with the heavier load. Also tried CCI 200 and Fed 210 primers - didn't really make a difference.

 

[drjjl]

Has anyone tried the Berger 168 Hybrids yet? I got some, but I'm not all that impressed yet. My normal load is 43.5 gr of Varget with the 175 OTMs that I have running 2720. I loaded the 168s at 44.0, but it's like they are shooting slower than the 175s. i.e. 4.4 mil at 600 v. 4.1 mil for the 175s. JBM says about 2625 for the 168s. Doesn't make sense with the heavier load. Also tried CCI 200 and Fed 210 primers - didn't really make a difference.

Maybe it's because the 168 hybrids have a considerably shorter bearing surface; therefore, generate less pressure? I'm just guessing though...

 

[Skigolfmike]

Maybe it's because the 168 hybrids have a considerably shorter bearing surface; therefore, generate less pressure? I'm just guessing though...

That is a distinct possibility.

 

[Skigolfmike]

The other possibility is that I am getting down to the end of a 8# jug of Varget that I have had for a while. I noticed velocities falling off when I got to the end of a jug when I was shooting 155 Scenars. My thought was then was the bottle being open and closed many times allowed moisture to get in the powder causing the loss in velocity. Maybe I should Load a few with powder out of a fresh 1# bottle and see if that makes a difference. It's probably going to be important as I'll probably be using Varget on the 77gr 223 I'll be loading for the AR. I hate to throw away powder, but in this case it's less than 1/2 a pound and it's been nearly 8 months since it was originally opened.

 

[drjjl]

The other possibility is that I am getting down to the end of a 8# jug of Varget that I have had for a while. I noticed velocities falling off when I got to the end of a jug when I was shooting 155 Scenars. My thought was then was the bottle being open and closed many times allowed moisture to get in the powder causing the loss in velocity. Maybe I should Load a few with powder out of a fresh 1# bottle and see if that makes a difference. It's probably going to be important as I'll probably be using Varget on the 77gr 223 I'll be loading for the AR. I hate to throw away powder, but in this case it's less than 1/2 a pound and it's been nearly 8 months since it was originally opened.

Or you could load up some of the 175otms and 168hyrbids with equal charges of the varget from the old jug and see what happens.

 

[Skigolfmike]

That's actually a pretty good idea. I'd only need about 5 rounds of each to see. Plus I could pull 5 existing 175s and replace with 168s. I'd get a better idea what is happening.

 

[Deadshot2]

That's actually a pretty good idea. I'd only need about 5 rounds of each to see. Plus I could pull 5 existing 175s and replace with 168s. I'd get a better idea what is happening.

Except for the fact you've changed the neck tension when you just pull bullets and then seat another one. Neck tension can alter performance, sometimes quite a lot.

Comparing performance requires that all parameters other than the one you're evaluating remain the same. That's also true when fine tuning. Only make ONE change at a time or you'll end up chasing your tail, round and round, until you disappear up your own asshole.

 

[Skigolfmike]

Actually, I resize the case after pulling the bullet, with my Redding S full length die I can do that with the powder in it because I can remove the expander ball and decapping rod. Ya have to be careful, but it can be done.

 

[drjjl]

Loads For .308 Winchester

Actually, I resize the case after pulling the bullet, with my Redding S full length die I can do that with the powder in it because I can remove the expander ball and decapping rod. Ya have to be careful, but it can be done.

I would tend to agree with Deadshot on this issue. Even if you can pull the bullet and resize the neck afterward, it still introduces a variable in that the case has now been resized twice. If you are really going to do an accurate comparison, all factors need to be the same except what you're trying to compare - in this case the velocity of the 168 hybrid vs the 175otm with all other things being equal. Pulling the bullet and then neck sizing the brass again introduces a variable that wasn't there before, no matter how small. It might work, but you'll never be 100% certain how much or how little effect the introduced variable has on your test.

 

[Skigolfmike]

My thought was to do both. 5 of each with the same load from the jug and 5 175s from a group that is shooting how I expect them too. Last 5 pulls, resize and replace from a good 175 batch with 168s.

I'll have a control group with the 5 "good" 175s, 5 175s and 5 168s from the same part of the jug, and 168s loaded in the pulls. I'm not just resizing the neck, but doing a full length resize. Could it induce a variable, maybe a minor one. My guess is I'll learn more from from the control group 175s to the comparison 175s and the comparison 175s to the comparison 168s. After that, I'll have a pretty good idea what to do next. I'm already pretty sure I need to push the load in with the 168s.

 

[drjjl]

My thought was to do both. 5 of each with the same load from the jug and 5 175s from a group that is shooting how I expect them too. Last 5 pulls, resize and replace from a good 175 batch with 168s.

I'll have a control group with the 5 "good" 175s, 5 175s and 5 168s from the same part of the jug, and 168s loaded in the pulls. I'm not just resizing the neck, but doing a full length resize. Could it induce a variable, maybe a minor one. My guess is I'll learn more from from the control group 175s to the comparison 175s and the comparison 175s to the comparison 168s. After that, I'll have a pretty good idea what to do next. I'm already pretty sure I need to push the load in with the 168s.

Will definitely be interested in seeing the results! Keep us posted

 

[Enough Said]

TRG-22

185 Scenar
New Lapua Brass, 2.005
CCI 200 Primer
Vv N550, 45.9
2.268 B2O
2670 fps, Sea level, 55 degrees

Solid half-minute load

 

[GlockBlock]

Is there a place where people can go and find out/share what factory loads are using which powders? I am particularly interested in Hornady's Product # 80933. This is a Hornady Superformance factory .308 WIN loading with the 150 gr SST. Sometimes I see people on the web reference factory loads and seem to know the powder. I always wonder where they got the info. I wouldn't guess the manufacturers exactly hand their recipes out.

Thanks in advance for any help for the FNG.

 

[Irokcrawl]

On the bottle

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[Skigolfmike]

I got to test the 308 loads today to see what was going on. The good stuff, 175 OTMs 43.5 gr Varget, Lapua brass, CCI200, shot 4.2 mil at 600 today. Then I shot the 175s I loaded to the same spec from the Varget left in the 8# jug. It shot just a bit low, like .7 mil low. The 168 Target Hybrids were about .2 mil lower than that with the 43.5 load.

Looks like the powder has gone bad and the 168s don't have a BC that's quite as good as advertised.

 

[drjjl]

I got to test the 308 loads today to see what was going on. The good stuff, 175 OTMs 43.5 gr Varget, Lapua brass, CCI200, shot 4.2 mil at 600 today. Then I shot the 175s I loaded to the same spec from the Varget left in the 8# jug. It shot just a bit low, like .7 mil low. The 168 Target Hybrids were about .2 mil lower than that with the 43.5 load.

Looks like the powder has gone bad and the 168s don't have a BC that's quite as good as advertised.

I'm definitely no expert, but does the powder go bad from absorbing moisture? Could those silicon packets "reverse" this or prevent it? I looked and don't see an expiration date on my powder jugs but don't want an unopened 1lber going bad before I get to it either. I guess you could use the old stuff for plinking and fouler rounds so you don't need to scrap it. Thanks for posting the results of your experiment. I still haven't found the time to make it to the range to test the power pro/scenar 175 combo.

 

[Skigolfmike]

Just a little level set - I haven't loaded that much 308 in the last year since I got my 6.5CM, so that powder has probably set for a while. Plus, I usually load in lots of 50, which, at ~44 gr per round, means that jug was opened ~25 times and then it set for nearly a year.

I saw this in the first 8# jug of Varget I had. I was shooting 155 Scenars and, as I got to the end of the jug, I noticed Iwas missing low. Velocity had fallen off from 2910 to 2790. My test yesterday showed a drop off from 2720 to 2550 with the 175 OTMs The 168 Target Hybrids with a 43.5gr load worked out to 2475. The ones I loaded to 44.0 work out to 2650, but they showed some signs of over pressure as I got some hard bolt lifts, but no ejector swipes. Very similar to what I saw with the 155s at the end of the Jug 2 years ago. As I pushed that load to make up for the velocity loss, I got pressure signs. My guess is that comes from changes in the burn rate as the powder starts to go bad/change/or whatever you want to call it.

 

[Deadshot2]

I'm definitely no expert, but does the powder go bad from absorbing moisture? Could those silicon packets "reverse" this or prevent it? I looked and don't see an expiration date on my powder jugs but don't want an unopened 1lber going bad before I get to it either. I guess you could use the old stuff for plinking and fouler rounds so you don't need to scrap it. Thanks for posting the results of your experiment. I still haven't found the time to make it to the range to test the power pro/scenar 175 combo.

Moisture might be a factor but often not as much as lot to lot variations. According to an article posted several years ago on Accurateshooter.com Varget has had enough lot/lot variations that some shooters have had to adjust their loads as much as 2 grains. I'm sure they were the shooters that were stretching their cases more than a "girdle on a fat lady" but still in all---it's a variable. Best thing to do (if you can) is to purchase powder in sufficient quantity, and the same lot number, that you can use a given load for some time. When running out and buying more new powder that's not of the same lot number, plan on adjusting. Just load 25 rounds, 5 rounds for each charge weight, using your old load for the "Center" and load two increments of .2gr below and .2gr above. One of those 5 loads will tell the story on lot variations. Just use the new load that shot best.

 

[Skigolfmike]

Well - explain how ammo I loaded a year ago out of the same jug of Varget is running at 2720 and the pieces I loaded recently are running 2550 with the exact same load. Jug is nearly empty and it's been sitting for a while.

 

[drjjl]

Well - explain how ammo I loaded a year ago out of the same jug of Varget is running at 2720 and the pieces I loaded recently are running 2550 with the exact same load. Jug is nearly empty and it's been sitting for a while.

Right. That's what I'm concerned about. I have an 8lb jug of varget and I don't want the end of the jug to "go bad" by the time I get to it. So is the moral of the story here to find a load that works and then load up the 1k+ rounds in short order before the powder goes bad? Or is there a way to prevent it from losing its potency? I store my powder in my house, so the climate is controlled for the most part, but is that enough?

 

[Dacam]

Does anybody have any good loads for the 185 OTM? I've got Varget, pp2000mr, cfe223, r17. Will be shooting them out of a 28" bartlein with 1:11.25. Lapua brass

I figured cfe and pp2000mr will have them zinging. But I like Varget for its stability.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I have been working on a load with 185g Berger Juggies and found a node:
185g Berger juggernauts
Lapua brass
210m primer
43.0 Varget
Oal-2.915, .030 off lands
2630fps

There is another higher node around 45g or so and working on that.

 

[Aimsmall55]

I have been working on a load with 185g Berger Juggies and found a node:
185g Berger juggernauts
Lapua brass
210m primer
43.0 Varget
Oal-2.915, .030 off lands
2630fps

There is another higher node around 45g or so and working on that.

I had some limited time today to load up a few juggernauts with 44.6 cfe223 and 45.0 grains. I think I'm getting close to a damn good load. Zeroed at 100 and it was shooting below half moa. Ran out of room at 175 yards but the bullets dropped maybe 1/2 " at that distance from the 100 yard zero. Didn't chrony them but I'm sure that they were hauling ass.
Lapua brass
Cci br2
45.0 cfe 223
2.264 to ogive.

 

[Thumper580]

Regarding "bad" powder... If it has a solvent smell it's OK.....if it has an acid smell like vinegar or uncured silicon (acetic acid) it has gone "bad" or turned. If it has the acid smell pour it on your grass... The nitrogen will do the grass good.

 

[bruddah]

Just getting into reloading for the .308

Got over 500 175gr SMKs, and a couple hundred Berger 175gr pills (some VLD, some hunting bullets).

Will be using Varget, 8208 XBR and IMR 4064.

Any pet loads for any of these combos?

Thanks!

 

[Deadshot2]

Just getting into reloading for the .308

Got over 500 175gr SMKs, and a couple hundred Berger 175gr pills (some VLD, some hunting bullets).

Will be using Varget, 8208 XBR and IMR 4064.

Any pet loads for any of these combos?

Thanks!

For those powders I ended up with 43.5 gr Varget, 42.2 gr of 8208 XBR, and 42.3 Gr of IMR 4064. The standard caveat, "these were good loads for MY RIFLE.

I load all at 2.810" so I can load from the internal box mag and they all shoot sub 1/2 MOA, every day.

 

[bruddah]

For those powders I ended up with 43.5 gr Varget, 42.2 gr of 8208 XBR, and 42.3 Gr of IMR 4064. The standard caveat, "these were good loads for MY RIFLE.

I load all at 2.810" so I can load from the internal box mag and they all shoot sub 1/2 MOA, every day.

Is that for the 175gr SMKs or Bergers? Thanks brother!

 

[bruddah]

My 2cents as a recovering powderholic....

Unless you have real serous reasons to use a variety of powders, pick one. Develop for one. Sure it is nice to know other powders work, they will; but unless you enjoy having 1/2 empty, bottles or loads with variance in elevation curves; it is a time, barrel burning and expensive endeavor.

Same for bullets.. Caveats would be a target load and a hunting load.. That said, many people run separate systems for those activities anyway.


Jt

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Appreciate the input. I want to find the powder/bullet combo that gets me out past 1,000 yds and will give me the best accuracy. Then I can stock pile for that particular load.

I also plan on using this .308 for hunting, thus a separate load with Berger hunting bullets which will hopefully also give me match grade accuracy.
Thanks!

 

[Boogaloo]

How many here are using the Tula large rifle primers? Results?

I used a lot of the Wolf LR primers and had great results but have yet to break into a case of 5,000 Tula's. Just wondering what I'll see with the usual .308 powders like Varget, IMR-4064, IMR 8208 XBR, RL-15, etc.

I have and I absolutely LOVE them. I am using the Tula KVB762 large rifle (NATO) primers and have completely shelved the Fed-210M's due to my results, which cover bullet weights from 155 to 208.

The pic below was taken 2 weeks ago out at my local range under the most "controlled" conditions I could manage. This includes shooting 5 shots with 210M's over the chrono (Magnetospeed) and then shooting a 5 shot (left target) group with the chrono removed. Then I reattached the chrono and shot a 5 shot group over the chrono using the Tula's, then removed the chrono and shot the 5 shot group on the right.

I should note that I shot 10 shots on the top target you cannot see in this pic to confirm zero, let the rifle cool for 15 minutes, then commenced the test with a 10 minute break between "tests". The idea behind that method, was to have comparable barrel temps for each of the 2 "tests".

I have a weather meter, and the conditions were extremely stable during this test. It was just before noon, so the temp had pretty much stabilized and was 76.4* F as indicated on the image. The entire "test" was completed in under 30 minutes, so I think that is about as good as it gets.

As indicated in the image, the group on the left with the Federal 210M primers shows POI roughly 1/2" high and slightly left of POA. The target on the right using the Tula primers was damn near perfect for me, and represents about as good as I am capable of shooting on any given day at 100 yards with a 308.

Needless to say, the Tula primers I have are performers, particularly with my powder lot, brass and bullets.

Lake City LR (2010) once fired brass was used for all loads.
Hornady 208 AMAX
Alliant Reloder-17
46.0 gr
2.191 to ogive / 2.842 OAL
These cartridges are far too long to feed from AI mags, so all rounds were single fed.
This cartridge configuration nets a .025" jump. I do not generally load or shoot "jammed".

The average speed is indicated on the target, but was 2586 (Fed primers) and 2580 (Tula primers).

The range is located 1050 feet ASL in California.

Hope that helps.

 

[bruddah]

I have and I absolutely LOVE them. I am using the Tula KVB762 large rifle (NATO) primers and have completely shelved the Fed-210M's due to my results, which cover bullet weights from 155 to 208.

The pic below was taken 2 weeks ago out at my local range under the most "controlled" conditions I could manage. This includes shooting 5 shots with 210M's over the chrono (Magnetospeed) and then shooting a 5 shot (left target) group with the chrono removed. Then I reattached the chrono and shot a 5 shot group over the chrono using the Tula's, then removed the chrono and shot the 5 shot group on the right.

I should note that I shot 10 shots on the top target you cannot see in this pic to confirm zero, let the rifle cool for 15 minutes, then commenced the test with a 10 minute break between "tests". The idea behind that method, was to have comparable barrel temps for each of the 2 "tests".

I have a weather meter, and the conditions were extremely stable during this test. It was just before noon, so the temp had pretty much stabilized and was 76.4* F as indicated on the image. The entire "test" was completed in under 30 minutes, so I think that is about as good as it gets.

As indicated in the image, the group on the left with the Federal 210M primers shows POI roughly 1/2" high and slightly left of POA. The target on the right using the Tula primers was damn near perfect for me, and represents about as good as I am capable of shooting on any given day at 100 yards with a 308.

Needless to say, the Tula primers I have are performers, particularly with my powder lot, brass and bullets.

Lake City LR (2010) once fired brass was used for all loads.
Hornady 208 AMAX
Alliant Reloder-17
46.0 gr
2.191 to ogive / 2.842 OAL
These cartridges are far too long to feed from AI mags, so all rounds were single fed.
This cartridge configuration nets a .025" jump. I do not generally load or shoot "jammed".

The average speed is indicated on the target, but was 2586 (Fed primers) and 2580 (Tula primers).

The range is located 1050 feet ASL in California.

Hope that helps.

Excellent! Thanks for the info. I also have the large rifle Tula primers. I might have to break them out and see what happens.

 

[Deadshot2]

Excellent! Thanks for the info. I also have the large rifle Tula primers. I might have to break them out and see what happens.

Nice to see the "numbers" and group for the Tula primers. I was able to pick up 5k of them before they started making them out of "unobtanium" and am almost out of Fed's. Too lazy to rework my loads yet for the Tula's

Looking at the Temp at the time these groups were shot makes me envious. Yesterday, at the range, it was a nice warm 24 degrees.

Funny side story:

Oldtimer shooting next to me brought in his propane tank with a heater on top. He'd set it up on the shooting bench next to me and was getting ready to light it. Just as he pushed the "safety button" in and held a match to the burner I sent a round downrange. I heard this loud shout and looked over. He was standing back and shaking all over. The "Boom" of my muzzle blast occured at the exact second that he put the match to the burner and he thought he'd just blown his ass up.

It took about 20 minutes for him to get his heart-rate back down and for both of us to stop laughing.

 

[Deadshot2]

Is that for the 175gr SMKs or Bergers? Thanks brother!

I've shot both at that weight and found the results to be very similar at under 300 yards. I think the Bergers will fly longer, straighter, though.

 

[bruddah]

Nice to see the "numbers" and group for the Tula primers. I was able to pick up 5k of them before they started making them out of "unobtanium" and am almost out of Fed's. Too lazy to rework my loads yet for the Tula's

Looking at the Temp at the time these groups were shot makes me envious. Yesterday, at the range, it was a nice warm 24 degrees.

Funny side story:

Oldtimer shooting next to me brought in his propane tank with a heater on top. He'd set it up on the shooting bench next to me and was getting ready to light it. Just as he pushed the "safety button" in and held a match to the burner I sent a round downrange. I heard this loud shout and looked over. He was standing back and shaking all over. The "Boom" of my muzzle blast occured at the exact second that he put the match to the burner and he thought he'd just blown his ass up.

It took about 20 minutes for him to get his heart-rate back down and for both of us to stop laughing.

That's just too damned funny!! LOL!

I've shot both at that weight and found the results to be very similar at under 300 yards. I think the Bergers will fly longer, straighter, though.

Thanks brother. I appreciate the feedback.