I would recommend using a chronograph and watching SD rather than groups, once you have a load with low ED then move to on to tuning the OAL
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.308 Winchester
- Thread starter Two Shoes
- Start date
I'm using the HornadyGlad you stated your COAL.
What comparator insert are you using? I ask because I'm just a little curious as to why yours is so different from my comparator inserts.
If I were to load my cartridges with the 169 SMK's to a COAL of 2.888", my CBTO measures 2.223" using my Sinclair comparator insert, which I typically use, and 2.899" using my Hornady comparator insert (noting that bullet length can be just a little different and effect in COAL). I'm only bringing this up for the general readers here as to why stating a CBTO measurement has no real meaning, except how it relates to that one specific tool in the same way that stating a jump has no meaning due to variation in freebores. When a COAL is stated, then we can have a better idea as to the seating depth and how it might fit into our own chambers according to our measurement with our tools.
Yeah, and you can see what the difference is like between the two inserts of mine. Also, we can see that even though you and I are using the same brand of comparator insert (the Sinclair), there's still a significant difference of .068" between our two . . . even if one accounts for some difference between our lots of 169 SMK's BTO's.
BTW: I've found a good accuracy node for my 26" Krieger barrel using 41.1 grs AR-Comp to push my 169 SMK's to around 2,725 fps, with groups less than .3". These cartridges are loaded with a COAL of 2.917 that put me ~.017 off my lands. With my previous Krieger 26" barrel using 45.0 grs of H-4895 (a pretty hot load) I got similar groups for my 169 SMK's with an MV at 2,849 fps when loaded to a COAL of 2.860" and .050" of my lands. Temperatures these were fired in were just under 70°F. But for the H-4895 I found an accuracy node I preferred to use at 43.9 grs of H-4895 with a COAL of 2.929" and giving me an MV around 2,792 fps (giving one of my best ever 5 shot groups at .017").
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I think this bullet has a lot of potential, but I don't have enough different powders available to me up here in Alaska to test it like I would like to. The difference between the 175 smk and the 169 at a 1,000 yards is 78 inches. So it's a much flatter shooting bullet. I guess I'm going to have to dip into my final stash of Varget and see how it does. Have you ever tried CFE223 because I have quite a bit of it. Well it's 10 am and almost light enough to go shoot. Have a good day.
FWIW I beat cfe223 to death with 168 smk and 175's as well.
No group with the 175's and barely cracked 1 moa with the 168.
As soon as I got varget under them and the 165 sgk I was hitting 0.6 moa and on down to a 0.3 group on some. (Actually had a cherry 0.21)
You can get to 1 moa with the cfe223 but past that I wasted a lot of bullets and powder better suited for other things.
Yesterday I managed to get 3lbs of varget ordered from Hodgdon and my son got one lb ordered.
It took me about 5 tries to get it and that's all it would let me get. My son took 30 minutes and got only one?
By the time I took 30 seconds to call him and hang up it was allready showing empty so I didn't bother posting.
Six months worth of checking every time I opened my browser sometimes till 2 AM.
So now I get to play with the 169 smk's. Ye Ha
I think cfe223 is too fast for heavy bullets in twist rates of 1/10 with a "full" case.
No group with the 175's and barely cracked 1 moa with the 168.
As soon as I got varget under them and the 165 sgk I was hitting 0.6 moa and on down to a 0.3 group on some. (Actually had a cherry 0.21)
You can get to 1 moa with the cfe223 but past that I wasted a lot of bullets and powder better suited for other things.
Yesterday I managed to get 3lbs of varget ordered from Hodgdon and my son got one lb ordered.
It took me about 5 tries to get it and that's all it would let me get. My son took 30 minutes and got only one?
By the time I took 30 seconds to call him and hang up it was allready showing empty so I didn't bother posting.
Six months worth of checking every time I opened my browser sometimes till 2 AM.
So now I get to play with the 169 smk's. Ye Ha
I think cfe223 is too fast for heavy bullets in twist rates of 1/10 with a "full" case.
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Yes, I've tried CFE223 in my .308, but it's been about 5 years since. At the time, I didn't get the results I wanted even though my reloading process wasn't as refined as it is now. The best result I got was with 45.3 grs of it pushing 175 SMK's at 90°F giving me ~.7 MOA results. Because it's too temperature sensitive for my use here in Arizona and I didn't care that the case wasn't as full as I like to have, I decided not to ever use it for this caliber since there are many other powders I found that work much better for me.
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Keep us posted on your adventure with the 169 gr. I'm officially done with the IMR 4895 after today. I can get MOA out to 600 and that's it. I've tried different charges and bullet seating from .015 off to .080 off. So off I go down another rabbit hole. LOL
Well these days you get what you can. We were out of varget for over a year.
Cfe223 (which I love) didn't work well in our barrel / twist rate.
Does not imply it will not work in yours. My sons 308 likes the taste of varget and not much else.
I tried hard to change it's diet.
Cfe223 (which I love) didn't work well in our barrel / twist rate.
Does not imply it will not work in yours. My sons 308 likes the taste of varget and not much else.
I tried hard to change it's diet.
Canada will block the team due to unauthorized powder transport!
And we're not talking snow here...
And we're not talking snow here...
So . . . you and a bunch of shooters hire a pilot to fly an Otter to Seattle and fill the plane with shooting supplies and fly it back to a remote location.
I don’t think Canada would let us land to refuel or I’d ask my buddy with a turbo otter to take a trip south. I was thinking more of a 40ft shipping container of primers and powder. Even Anchorage doesn’t have powder or primers.
Hey guys hope everyone is enjoying their day today.
So I just stumbled on some "old" SMK 155 (2155c) bullets. Has anyone had any suscess with them?
I normally shoot 175 SMKS with 4064 mag length through my 700P. Only looking to shoot 1-200 yards.
So any education on these bullets would be helpful.
Thanks!
So I just stumbled on some "old" SMK 155 (2155c) bullets. Has anyone had any suscess with them?
I normally shoot 175 SMKS with 4064 mag length through my 700P. Only looking to shoot 1-200 yards.
So any education on these bullets would be helpful.
Thanks!
I've played around with some Sierra 155 Palma's, which is a longer bullet than the SMK's and 45.0 grs of IMR-4064 did alright when seated to a COAL of 2.842 in my gun. At 1-200 yds. the 155 SMK's should do great . . . and loading them long, they can still fit in the mag.
My old 700 SS 5R shot those better than anything else. Reloader 15 gave me the smallest groups, but I had good luck with IMR-4064 too. I don't have the data on my phone, but I remember choosing a nominal COL of 2.820 and it just worked. I was using CCI BR2s too.
8208 is wicked good with 155's too. I load 44.2 under a lapua scenar for 2900 FPS out of a 22 inch tube.
I don't know it this will help anyone, but I shot for dope the other day out to 800 yards but I had to stop there due to visibility. Snow! I switched over to Varget from IMR4895. It's still to cold to set up the chronograph so I don't have any velocities for you. The load was 44.3 gr. of Varget pushing a 169 gr. SMK in a Winchester case with CCI primer with an ogive of 2.155 and a coal of 2.888. Here's the dope in MOA and yards with a 100 yard zero at 20 F.
3.5-300
6.5-400
9.5-500
13.5-600
17-700
20.5-800
3.5-300
6.5-400
9.5-500
13.5-600
17-700
20.5-800
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Here's some results of my 500 rounds of 308 loaded up on Thanksgiving.
New Winchester brass, 168 SMK, 41 grains Reloder 15 and WLR Primers.
GAP HRT with S&B
New Winchester brass, 168 SMK, 41 grains Reloder 15 and WLR Primers.
GAP HRT with S&B
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Two different loads.Those of you shooting Berger 200.2x's:
What powder and charges have you been using? None of the reloading books I have, have any reloading data for this bullet(or any bullet of 200gr in .308 win) Including the Berger reloading book
How have the results been?
I've got plenty of IMR-4895, BLC2, Varget, Win. 760.
Thanks!
43.3 Varget, Lapua Palma Brass, BR4.
44.3 N150, Lapua brass, BR4.
Both from 32" barrel.
Varget load shot best so far in FTR 600 yards. N150 so far best at 1000 yards.
Many thanks! I’ve got plenty of Varget to use. No N150. Don’t have Lapua brass for .308, only LC. But, I’ll start around 40 or 41 and see how it shoots
Yes start lower with LC or Peterson. When I use Peterson I'm exactly 1.0g lower than Lapua Palma brass.Many thanks! I’ve got plenty of Varget to use. No N150. Don’t have Lapua brass for .308, only LC. But, I’ll start around 40 or 41 and see how it shoots
For the .308 brass that I've have, case volume for Peterson is .4 gr H2O less than my Lapua Palma brass and LC is 1.1 grs H2O less than my Lapua brass. So, yeah . . . it's a good idea to start lower with those two from where one might be with their Lapua brass.
This is a flying sledgehammer. Shoots near ragged hole.
Anyone have a good starting point for using RL17 with 178 BTHPs and Norma brass? I’ve seen a few older posts with some numbers but was wondering if anyone has anything more recent. My range maxes out at 300 yards so I’m not looking for a ton of speed. I was thinking about starting at 44 gr and going to 45.1 gr in .3 increments (this would keep me in the middle of Hornady’s published range). This will be for an AI AT with a 24” barrel.
I’ve got a factory 20in, 1-10 .308 that loves Sig marksman elite 168grn. Im about a month into reloading for this rifle and having success with SMK and ELD-M with varget and x-terminator. Im curious what powder Sig uses in their elite marksman rounds, anyone know? I need to get another box and pull a couple, but figured I’d ask you guys to.
42.5 IMR4064 seems to be the sweet spot. That’s what I run in my bolt rifle with 168 hybrids at 2690 and my AR10 with 175 SMK’s at 2630
I’d like to try some 4064, looks like it has burn speed right between the two powders I’m currently using.
Last year I tried some RL17 pushing Berger 185 Jugs (having close to the same BOAL) that were loaded long at 2.968 COAL with 45.8 grs. It did ok at ~70°F, but the load fell apart at 80-83°F. Average MV out of my 24" barrel for that load was 2618 fps. That was the lowest charge I ran where I went from 45.8 to 48.3 grs to find better results and 48.1 did better than that 45.8 grs. with MV of 2739 fps, but was a hot load and as I said, with that difference in temperature the results were then terrible.
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Some more results of my 500 rounds of 308 loaded up on Thanksgiving.
New Winchester brass, 168 SMK, 41 grains Reloder 15 and WLR Primers.
TacOps X-Ray 51 with a March 4.5 x 28 (52), 200 Yard Sand Pit.
New Winchester brass, 168 SMK, 41 grains Reloder 15 and WLR Primers.
TacOps X-Ray 51 with a March 4.5 x 28 (52), 200 Yard Sand Pit.
Glad I read though this. I just started loading Peterson brass for my 308. Started at 40.5 and loaded up to 42 grains of Varget with a 175 smk. Just need time to go shoot them.
About 4 years I thought I would try Peterson as I heard good things about it. I typically am pretty thorough on my testing before a match but instead just loaded them up with a known load that shot well (in Lapua Palma brass) and went to a match. Took 1st sighter and was high. Couple more and same thing. Had to come down one MOA at 1,000 from previous match.
Rifle and I shot terrible on match one and two. This was before electronic targets, so I had no velocity data. Was getting pretty frustrated. The wind was not that bad, the grouping was just bad. Started to think it was the load. Came home and did some testing and was way fast and outside the node. I backed it down 1.0g in testing and was back where it was with the Lapua brass.
I have a small sample of Peterson brass it is smaller than Lapua but not dramatically smaller.
This is a nothing fancy load but Peterson brass, 42.5 IMR-4064 under a 168 or 175 coal 2.83 works well in my stick.
This is a nothing fancy load but Peterson brass, 42.5 IMR-4064 under a 168 or 175 coal 2.83 works well in my stick.
Yes, it is to which my .308 Peterson brass has .5 gr H2O less capacity than my Lapua brass.
That's the power and load that works very well for me too . . . pushing 168 SMK with a COAL of 2.856" and for 169 SMK's it's 43.2 gr IMR-4064 with a COAL of 2.929" (Lapua brass)
So that's 1% of a " normal" load in 308. I have done some checking with 223 and same +/- 1% on a handful of head stamps.
What gets me is the large difference in results of the 1%.
The way I shoot I'm supprised it's so easily seen on paper.
So if not running compressed loads how is the disperportionet change in velocities explained.
Some loads may have a +/- node of .3gr total in any given barrel and seating depth. But change .4gr of capacity the load goes to hell.
What gets me is the large difference in results of the 1%.
The way I shoot I'm supprised it's so easily seen on paper.
So if not running compressed loads how is the disperportionet change in velocities explained.
Some loads may have a +/- node of .3gr total in any given barrel and seating depth. But change .4gr of capacity the load goes to hell.
Mine is also a compressed load. So grouping at 1,000 yards being the difference between Lapua and Peterson with same load and out of the node is significant in "my rifle". Might not be seen at shorter distances but shows up at longer ones.
This load is just stupid. Had I not had someone with me I'd have had a hard time believing my own eyes.
So I just got back into reloading after a long hiatus (25 yrs) and decided my 1st load would be .308 Berger 168 hybrids. I used a Satterly speed test, came up with a speed node, then tried 5 different jumps, settling for .035. After not getting quite the speed I wanted, I bumped the load up .02 to the top of the speed node and went for a final test today. Speed was disappointing in that the SD and ES was just not good enough for me, and it didn't make sense given the care I put into making sure everything was gnats ass (previous speed test had a SD of 7 and ES of 26 I believe). So I tweaked my zero and said screw it I'm going for 1K yards to see what happens. Well, this is what happened...
First three shot group on a full size IPSC was barely bigger than a quarter and was like a ridiculous .121 moa. I literally had to drive down range because I didn't believe what I was seeing. I even thought that one lower stain was one of my shots but it wasn't... It had paint over it and was just someone elses poorly painted stain. So I decided to go to the two gongs to the right to confirm what I was seeing. The left gong is 12 in and the right gong is 10 in. Essentially the same result. The worst of those two groups was barely 3.5 in. I held center on the IPSC then left edge on the gongs. Those three groups were shot in succession. And I'm going to go buy a lottery ticket.
The only thing that makes sense on the speeds was that my ammo was stored indoors last night and it was 40° out this morning. I have a hunch that my ammo was rapidly cooling off sitting at the bench and it was doing so unevenly. The powder is win 748 which is known to be quite temp sensitive and I had evidence to support that from my previous test.
*LC M118LR brass, fireformed to my chamber and neck sized only with a collet/mandrel die
*Amp annealed
*Chamfer and deburr only, my trimmer hasn't arrived yet.
*Berger 168 Hybrids
*.035 off the lands
*43.3 gr Win748
*FGM LR match primers
*Rifle is a GAP M40 clone with approx. 4500 rounds through it, R700, 26.5 11.25R Bartlein
So I just got back into reloading after a long hiatus (25 yrs) and decided my 1st load would be .308 Berger 168 hybrids. I used a Satterly speed test, came up with a speed node, then tried 5 different jumps, settling for .035. After not getting quite the speed I wanted, I bumped the load up .02 to the top of the speed node and went for a final test today. Speed was disappointing in that the SD and ES was just not good enough for me, and it didn't make sense given the care I put into making sure everything was gnats ass (previous speed test had a SD of 7 and ES of 26 I believe). So I tweaked my zero and said screw it I'm going for 1K yards to see what happens. Well, this is what happened...
First three shot group on a full size IPSC was barely bigger than a quarter and was like a ridiculous .121 moa. I literally had to drive down range because I didn't believe what I was seeing. I even thought that one lower stain was one of my shots but it wasn't... It had paint over it and was just someone elses poorly painted stain. So I decided to go to the two gongs to the right to confirm what I was seeing. The left gong is 12 in and the right gong is 10 in. Essentially the same result. The worst of those two groups was barely 3.5 in. I held center on the IPSC then left edge on the gongs. Those three groups were shot in succession. And I'm going to go buy a lottery ticket.
The only thing that makes sense on the speeds was that my ammo was stored indoors last night and it was 40° out this morning. I have a hunch that my ammo was rapidly cooling off sitting at the bench and it was doing so unevenly. The powder is win 748 which is known to be quite temp sensitive and I had evidence to support that from my previous test.
*LC M118LR brass, fireformed to my chamber and neck sized only with a collet/mandrel die
*Amp annealed
*Chamfer and deburr only, my trimmer hasn't arrived yet.
*Berger 168 Hybrids
*.035 off the lands
*43.3 gr Win748
*FGM LR match primers
*Rifle is a GAP M40 clone with approx. 4500 rounds through it, R700, 26.5 11.25R Bartlein
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Those are incredible results. I’m to new in reloading to have any quantitative info to add other than the fact that I’m getting better results with ball powders than I’m getting with stick powders out of my 20” .308
I haven’t shot my loads beyond 100yards at this time but I love seeing your success with a classic ball powder like 748
I haven’t shot my loads beyond 100yards at this time but I love seeing your success with a classic ball powder like 748
As good as the results are I wouldn't use that powder again. I think I could achieve similar results with a more temp stable powder. Speed was all over the map because of the wild temperature swings this time of year so it forced me to rely too much on instinct rather than data. This was all I had so I used it but I've since scored some better powder. Next load will be with 8208 XBR and 168 ELDs. I like the Bergers but they're $25+ more per box than the Hornady with a similarly high BC. Also have some 176 A-tips I'm going to try.
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