Though you didn't ask me. . .
In my 26" barrel, my 169 SMK's do real well with a velocity just above 2,700 fps (like 2701 to 2715 fps); that is with 41.1 gr AR-Comp and seated to a COAL at 2.931".
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.308 Winchester
- Thread starter Two Shoes
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In my 26" barrel, my 169 SMK's do real well with a velocity just above 2,700 fps (like 2701 to 2715 fps); that is with 41.1 gr AR-Comp and seated to a COAL at 2.931".
I posted it up earlier but it wasn't a fast load 42.5 varget in winchester brass probably 2600fps. Loaded them to 2.82" so they could shoot out of my AR10 as well. In a bolt only load 2.85" and 43gr would be a good guess.
Let us know OAL of these when you get them.
I back ordered the 174 VT's from Euro for 38.99 per 100.
I should have them today. Midways posted them for 35 per 100 for seconds. I beat the system and got 10% off so free shipping on 500 this morning.
This can be done at home if ya don't go to the extremes.
I've done so with hybrid cases which the military runs in full autos at 80,000 psi average ... but ya don't have to take em that far to see a nice improvement in standard cartridges like the 308. Or 6.5 CM.
The new alpha brass, looks like a winner.
Here are some 200 SMK running 2874 fps out of a alum chassis 308 Win, 8 twist Bartlein on a trued Rem 700 LA action with the hybrid cases.
A good load for those wishing to do it at home....if ya want.
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Holy Sierra! That's gnarly. I have a fresh box of Alpha .308 Win. brass that I should prep & load up with 175 smk's or 175 VLD's. Though, it will be to my known, precise loads
Who uses ball powders in their 308 match loads? I like AA2520 for my 69g, 80g 223 loads, it flows from my measurer great. I am looking into shooting "modern vintage sniper matches". I am thinking one of the 168g 308 bullets. I will try the AA2520 also.
Mike
Mike
Never use ball powders for match loads due to their temp sensitivity.
Can anyone take a CBO measurement for factory match loads, specifically 168 Sierra Matchkings? I'm loading some dummy rds to see where I need my freebore for some heavier bullets at mag length (2.950) and all the rds I have loaded with standard weight bullets measure 2.130-2.180 which is fine because the heavies I'm loading up are coming in around 2.210. However, I am seeing some CBO measurements with the 168 Sierra at 2.80 COAL come in at 2.230 which would not work for the freebore I'm looking at.
So far 3 factory loads I have been able to measure :
Sig 175gr 2.113
Sig 168gr 2.106
Federal 185gr 2.207
Thanks for the help
So far 3 factory loads I have been able to measure :
Sig 175gr 2.113
Sig 168gr 2.106
Federal 185gr 2.207
Thanks for the help
Hmmm??? I see . . . you want to get a kick out of it.
My factory CBTO for 168 gr Federal Premium match cartridges was 2.147.
Lol, just a soft push compared to my 300 Norma. Thank you for the measurement.Hmmm??? I see . . . you want to get a kick out of it.
My factory CBTO for 168 gr Federal Premium match cartridges was 2.147.
BTW: I should have mentioned that for that CBTO measurement the comparator insert I use is a Sinclair, not a Hornady (big difference, like my Hornady insert measures .050 shorter).
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Nosler says 43.5 is their accuracy load with their 175. BUT, every rifle is like a a woman in that what pleases one may not work with another , and , I wonder if other bullet makers actually have test facilities like Sierra where they do actual firing to test their products , or just use some computer programs and base everything on ES/SD ?
Whichever is most readily available and shoots the tightest. Probably can't lose with any of those if you can get one to shoot.
Why a 155? It has a crap BC and you have a short barrel so not going to be able to get it going as fast as the people who usually shoot them with 28-30" Barrels. I would be using one of the new 168-178grn bullets with they much better BCs in your set up.
Or give the new Sierra 169 Matchking a look. It has been extremely accurate in my M1A.
I'm giving thought to trying cortinas blackjack challenge. I wanted something I can drive the snot out of and limit the recoil a bit. It only has to go 500 yards. The rifle has a load with a 178 that it likes but it's a bit much.
I guess I could always revisit the old standby 168 smk. I haven't loaded any in this rifle since it got its new barrel.
The 168 SMK is another crap bullet in this day and age. The BC is terrible compared to the 168 ELD-M or the 169 mentioned. I would try both of those before a 155 or 168 SMK.
Wish I could help but never went over 190grns with the .308. For my shooting needs the super heavies never gave any advantage. Sorry. I am sure someone else will chime in as I know some here do use those.
Many years ago, I fired over 17,000 rds of 308 155 Lapua Scenar, with max loads of Varget, and single digit S/Ds, with 27" barrels...it was used to 1400yds.
It will work at 500 yards with ease, even in a 20".
My 16" AR 10 was shooting a variety 155s 2800 to 2900 fps, the worst of the lot was 155 tipped SMK...switched to the 168 ELDM and got 1/2" 5 shot groups at 2756 fps average...so that's what I set it up for.
The 169 and 177 SMK are much better than the 168 SMK. The 168 ELDM has a good BC for a 168, if your barrel likes it.
Today I prefer to shoot 8 and 9 twist 308 barrels, with bullets from 200gr to 230 gr and longer barrels to 30" for long range endevors.....even the 22" hunting version has a 9 twist for 200gr to 230 gr bullets.
It will work at 500 yards with ease, even in a 20".
My 16" AR 10 was shooting a variety 155s 2800 to 2900 fps, the worst of the lot was 155 tipped SMK...switched to the 168 ELDM and got 1/2" 5 shot groups at 2756 fps average...so that's what I set it up for.
The 169 and 177 SMK are much better than the 168 SMK. The 168 ELDM has a good BC for a 168, if your barrel likes it.
Today I prefer to shoot 8 and 9 twist 308 barrels, with bullets from 200gr to 230 gr and longer barrels to 30" for long range endevors.....even the 22" hunting version has a 9 twist for 200gr to 230 gr bullets.
Berger 155.5 Fullbore bullets are the gold standard in that weight class. There is a reason top Palma shooters use them exclusively.
For the blackjack challenge you should use the heaviest Berger you can that shoots small groups. For known distance shooting, heavy and slow beat fast and light almost every time. Heavy bullets have less wind drift than the lighter bullets.
For the blackjack challenge you should use the heaviest Berger you can that shoots small groups. For known distance shooting, heavy and slow beat fast and light almost every time. Heavy bullets have less wind drift than the lighter bullets.
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I have a 20" being built now in a 1-10 twist with JGS reamer specifically for 200 gr Berger Hybrids at 2.950 OAL. Initially, I was going to chamber it for the 215 but felt the shorter barrel would limit velocity too much with that heavy of a projectile.
All depends on how you set up your 308, as to whether it would be slow with the heavier bullets. Long action, short action, barrel twist, barrel length, cartridge overall length, etc.
First experiment with Hornady 225 gr ELDM running over 2700 fps with a 308 hybrid case...they run 2674 fps in Lapua cases.
Not exactly slow for a 308 case.
But every time you compromise with shorter barrels, those velocities are diminished, as is the performance.
The application depends on the purpose, and performance you want, and the range one is likely to shoot.
This is a maximum effort no compromise 308 with 30" heavy palma 8 twist 5 R barrel, in an aluminum chassis, with a long action.
It will run 200 to 250 gr Atips, and has made 4000 ft/lb of energy, out of the 308 case.
I have many other 308s from 16" to 30" barrels, with twist rates from 12 to 8, ultra light to heavy...So I understand the compromises,...But never stopped pushing the envelope, or experimenting with the 308, over the years.
It's a hobby, as a retired machinist who builds his own rifles, I can incorporate any idea, I desire, with no waiting on a gunsmith. Big advantage.
Example: just built an AR 10 in 338 RCM with an 18" barrel, cause I wanted a magnum cartridge in an AR. So I get to exercise my weird-ass ideas...
Helpful? Sometimes...
First experiment with Hornady 225 gr ELDM running over 2700 fps with a 308 hybrid case...they run 2674 fps in Lapua cases.
Not exactly slow for a 308 case.
But every time you compromise with shorter barrels, those velocities are diminished, as is the performance.
The application depends on the purpose, and performance you want, and the range one is likely to shoot.
This is a maximum effort no compromise 308 with 30" heavy palma 8 twist 5 R barrel, in an aluminum chassis, with a long action.
It will run 200 to 250 gr Atips, and has made 4000 ft/lb of energy, out of the 308 case.
I have many other 308s from 16" to 30" barrels, with twist rates from 12 to 8, ultra light to heavy...So I understand the compromises,...But never stopped pushing the envelope, or experimenting with the 308, over the years.
It's a hobby, as a retired machinist who builds his own rifles, I can incorporate any idea, I desire, with no waiting on a gunsmith. Big advantage.
Example: just built an AR 10 in 338 RCM with an 18" barrel, cause I wanted a magnum cartridge in an AR. So I get to exercise my weird-ass ideas...
Helpful? Sometimes...
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As ridiculous as it sounds, this is the first .308 bolt gun I've ever owned. Have had about 15 M1A's in every configuration possible, but they're limits are restricted to traditional .308 loads.
Wanted to keep it .308 for a lot of reasons. I'm already set up to reload .30 in general and prefer that bullet diameter over everything else and I'm stocked up with .308 supplies. It's accurate and mild to shoot and barrel life will usually surpass most other cartridges. I also wanted a mid-weight, short, easy to maneuver rifle that I could still have fun shooting out to 1200 yards. Lapua brass was a must as was the ability to shoot factory ammo that is common enough to find everywhere.
Sent a dummy rd to JGS with Lapua brass and a Berger 200 hybrid loaded at 2.950", short enough to take advantage of a Wyatt extended box and just long enough to grow with the chamber erosion. Played with a lot of other projectiles, including the 215, but could not make it work at the OAL I needed and keep the velocity to a respectable number. Hoping 2450-2500 with the 200 gr. Oddly enough the freebore dimension came out almost perfect at .087 which if I push the bullet back .003, will give me SAMMI freebore and the ability to run factory ammo safely. 20" barrel, 10 twist.
Yes they do have a better BC which will help with wind but the newer, lighter bullets have almost the BC. The 200 Hybrids have a .616 and the Hornady 174 ELD-VTs have a .573 so you can get close. Any of the 168+ bullets will give good splash at that range. I have no problem seeing them hit the steel or the dirt.
I know this is nit-picking, but I'm a Berger whore for the most part. They just seem to be more consistent at longer ranges than others I have used and I haven't had any blow up in faster twist barrels. The new Sierra 169 seemed to be a good fit for an M1A, and at least at short ranges I've been impressed with it's performance. I have yet to make it out to 600 or longer yet, so I can't speak for distance yet.
The 200 Hybrid is a proven bullet many times over. I know a lot of people have success with tipped bullets but no one in F-class anywhere uses them, the competitors swear by Bergers, and my results at long range have been consistent enough to stick with them.
Wasn’t trying to talk you out of them but just didn’t want you to think you had to use something that heavy in the 20”. Those 169 will work too.
Off topic completely, sorta, what's the best heavy for caliber in a 6.5 Creedmoor? Wind, energy, you know, the thing....
I'm using the 153 ATips now and they work great in the Creedmoor. Getting them to 2680fps with H4350.
I got slightly ahead of myself with the reamer information. Freebore of .087 on my rd means the datum point is actually .027 shorter than SAMMI so any factory rd will be jamming hard. I need to extend the freebore to .114 and jump my rd .027. or in that range to allow the datum point for a standard .308 to load safely. Still doable though.
Always gotta throw in the 6.5 CM...
I have 2 of them, and like them.
But the 308 set up properly will do better in most instances...I have 8 308s.
This is a $600 rifle built from a new barrel and spare parts, with my reamer, and lathe.
It's 308 with a 22" Bartlein 5 R 9 twist shooting 200 gr SMK .715 BC at 2740 fps, which will spank your 6.5 CM load with 153 Atips... plus longer barrels and hybrid cases put over 2900 fps in a 200 gr SMK.
I had to go to 80,000 psi hybrid cases in the 6.5 CM to get it to back in contention with my 308 loads.
Plus the 9 twist can shoot the .8 BC plus bullets in the 22".
The 308 case and old outdated bullets still work...but you don't have to use them.
All cartridges can be improved on, new powders, bullets, and ideas, keeps up the competition.
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Put your reading glasses on and look at the post above mine that I was answering. Not just throwing in the Creedmoor.
Since you like Bergers ...here's a 200.2 gr 20X Berger load, from the 22" barrel.
Just under 2700 fps.
I use an MDT detachable center feed mag without the center support to feed 2.990" inch cartridges, these are slightly longer, probably next to the lands...for this rifle only.
I have long action 308 30" 8 twist that feeds 3.4" cartridges incase one wants to run 250 gr Atips in the 308.
The Bergers shoot good and are consistent but they are not always the most accurate, and the SMK have a much higher BC, it depends on what the barrel likes... with the powder used.
My 6 Dasher loves Berger bullets, extremely accurate, so I bought thousands of them.
There are lots of choices for the 308, it's easily a 1200 yd rifle these days with a variety of new bullets available.
The Berger 168 gr "hunting" will run over 2900 fps in the 22" barrel, but every 308 I fired it in, prefers other brands and is one of the least accurate bullets I've ever shot, no powdet charge, no twist rate likes this bullet, in 8 308s it's inaccurate.
I bought a box of 500 and must have got a bad batch, even the 300 blackout or the 300 hamr doesn't like them...they are almost gone. I will never buy another box of those Berger bullets.
So try a 100 box before you buy 500 box of any bullet, before going on manufactures reputation, or others suggestions.
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