I feel we have just been introduced to the final boss. The Fuddmaster. I can feel a disturbance in the force.
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.308Win.Ackley Improved
- Thread starter ChiefBull
- Start date
I feel we have just been introduced to the final boss. The Fuddmaster. I can feel a disturbance in the force.
why would anyone go through all the trouble of fire forming a .308 case to still have case capacity with ~9 grains of water less than a .30-06? You can’t claim length of the rifle or DBM if it’s a 30” tube on a single shot savage? .308 brass is no more prevalent than .30-06, both come from lapua or anyone else who has ever squashed a brass slug into a case. Maybe pressure limit can be pushed higher with small primer cases but it probably doesn’t outweigh the volume on a yard long barrel.
Additionally, stating that something is an empirically proven fact without providing your meticulously gathered raw data or even your tabulated findings so that others can apply the principles of statistics and the scientific method to validate your findings is just wasted hot air. I’d be willing to bet that more shots at extreme distance are missed because of poor wind calls than all this transonic subsonic floor pseudo science.Sound reasoning would guide the astute marksman to Question someone who states short stubby .30 cal bullets perform better at long ranges due to gyroscopic precession and transonic buffeting on centers of pressure and gravity, especially when no particular bullet has been mentioned, no group size has been shown, no center of mass aberrations have been documented, no transonic distance or velocities stated. Without measured data it’s just a thought experiment, and those don’t always turn out right.
Additionally, stating that something is an empirically proven fact without providing your meticulously gathered raw data or even your tabulated findings so that others can apply the principles of statistics and the scientific method to validate your findings is just wasted hot air. I’d be willing to bet that more shots at extreme distance are missed because of poor wind calls than all this transonic subsonic floor pseudo science.Sound reasoning would guide the astute marksman to Question someone who states short stubby .30 cal bullets perform better at long ranges due to gyroscopic precession and transonic buffeting on centers of pressure and gravity, especially when no particular bullet has been mentioned, no group size has been shown, no center of mass aberrations have been documented, no transonic distance or velocities stated. Without measured data it’s just a thought experiment, and those don’t always turn out right.
I actually heard a gun store salesman say that to a rifle buyer once. "You can place one of these larger scopes on it and it will boost the power and range of your bullet".
Me at a corner display stand looking for a .45 caliber revolver bore brush that can be taken apart and stored in a small pocket...
It was for a .25-06 Rem that the guy was intent on purchasing...
Damn. If only all the elr guys out there knew the .300 and .338 were unstable after 1400 and the .308 is good past 1700........
.338, hell, why are these guys building Chey-tac's and the like for shooting CONSISTENTLY at 3000 when his puny little 308AI can do it?
No way in hell anybody actually read the first post.
Gotta keep it challenging. Going 10/10 at 2500yds with a .308ai ain’t no fun.
Many have shown.
Shut the fuck up, and quit making shit up. You sound like you couldn't hit your ass with both hands parroting some shit you heard for who knows where.Longer barrels make more velocity, plain and simple. There is nothing more to it than that. You want more velocity at the same pressure add barrel. I believe the test I saw with a 30/06 it was still gaining velocity at 50". Ballistic disadvantage...
I don't think you are crazy. You are not interested in pushing pressure to make your bullet go faster. I have a solution. Get a longer barrel you fucking muppet.
Ya, there isn’t much debate on the barrel length stuff. If you’re shooting prone and want speed, get a longer barrel.
In theory you could go as long as you want until it starts slowing down. But that could be very long.
Most that are shooting ELR figure out the speed they want to achieve and use the barrel to get the rest off the way there once at a comfortable amount of pressure.
In theory you could go as long as you want until it starts slowing down. But that could be very long.
Most that are shooting ELR figure out the speed they want to achieve and use the barrel to get the rest off the way there once at a comfortable amount of pressure.
Many have shown.
Longer barrels make more velocity, plain and simple. There is nothing more to it than that. You want more velocity at the same pressure add barrel. I believe the test I saw with a 30/06 it was still gaining velocity at 50". Ballistic disadvantage...
I don't think you are crazy. You are not interested in pushing pressure to make your bullet go faster. I have a solution. Get a longer barrel you fucking muppet.
I'm not arguing they make more speed.
I'm asking who in their right mind is carrying a 30" tube around when they're gaining so little speed it's not worth it. Notice, carrying around. I'm talking real, usable field rifles. Not some f-class or benchrest rediculousness. I have a 28" 22-250, and it only gets carried from the truck to the ground to eliminate the prairie dog over-population. Useless in any other scenario. It'll be a 24" next barrel change, as I'm sick and tired of the extra weight and the 6.5" can on top of it puts it out there a long, long ways.
Have you never seen the speed comparisons where they cut down barrels? It's comical how little velocity you loose from some cartridges. Sure, the over-bore magnums and such will pick up huge speeds at long lengths, but the underbore stuff like .223 isn't hurting at 20". Some of the crap 55grn m193 actually does slow down past 20" (granted, it's not great to begin with and god only knows what powder they're using in some of that copy-cat surplus junk).
And I don't need speed or pressure. I need accurate and consistent speed, as the ballistic calculator will be much more effective with small spreads.
Where do you long barrel wierdo's hangout normally? I get called crazy on here because I'm still running mostly 24". Every other week some guy is asking about 18" and everyone comes out of the woodwork to tell them how great it is.
I think I’ve figured it out. This post was submitted in 1987 and somehow just showed up today.
This explains everything now.
This explains everything now.
First off. No, that is not what you said. You said. "Ballistically, long barrels can be detrimental." Which is the opposite of true.
I doubt there is a center fire ammunition on the planet that slows down at 20". 25 auto, Maybe. You are still spouting bullshit at about a 75% rate.
Cant lift the gun from the truck to ground for the extra weight of 4" of barrel. What a strapping man you must be.
Hi,
Must have been jarred loose during the recent/current forum updates!!
A friend told me today that Colonel Townsend made PO Ackley suck his dick and that is not in either of their books; I know because I have the books.
Sincerely,
Theis
I’ll admit that I started after that post, otherwise I would have had to translate it to English first.
And I wanted an explanation on how external ballistics is affected by brass shape or how a bullet knows what brass it's been shot out of.
Or how OP has determined that he's got 55000 PSI of pressure and that that leaves 5000 to spare.
So many questions...
Or how OP has determined that he's got 55000 PSI of pressure and that that leaves 5000 to spare.
So many questions...
Damn. Fudd-O-Rama.
You guys need to be nicer to him. Just when it started to get good you ran him off.
How we going to get to 7 or 8 pages if you chase off potential like this.
The Chief isn't one of those new guys. He's been here almost nine years. I believe him to be one of those "one gun" kind of people, as all his posts chronicle his long range Savage and SS scope. Seems like an example of the retired Navy guy who I see at the Benchrest range who can really talk your ear off about his choice of rifle and caliber, as his wife is long tired of listening. Harmless and well intentioned, and I was raised to be polite. Don't believe he's quite in the bench pressing, concrete working, true bad ass category.
Hi,
DEFINITELY has to be paparocks brother right???? lol
Sincerely,
Theis
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The very simplest way to upgrade the bolt chamber complex is to change the geometry of the bolt handle; the bolt handle must have enough mass to it that it expedites the cycling of the bolt sufficiently quickly to feed a round onto the ramp and not break the rifleman's natural point of aim or target eye scope relief [TE/SR[ hn he is feeding from the magazine or single round. This bolt handle allows just for that; it is heavy enough that with simple snapping action of the wrist this can be achieved without ever taking the eye from the rear optic with a very silky smooth quickness that is effortless. The handle is easily installed even if the instructions are not followed particularly well. I have a heavy 1-1/2" oak dowel rod at my bench to depress the guide way bolt button on the Savage 110bolt and reset the firing pin spring. Ten minutes should do in the entire procedure. This "DOES NOT" take a gunsmith; any competent Rifleman who knows his weapon should be able to accomplish with a minimum of trouble. It is as ugly as Sin but it works. well done "BZ" ChiefBull I am CPO Surface Warfare 1200lb Steam qualified Engineering Officer of the Watch Underway and Double Distinguished, and two tour combat veteran of VietNam, Rifleman USN Retired: *Redacted*.
DEFINITELY has to be paparocks brother right???? lol
Sincerely,
Theis
---------------------
The very simplest way to upgrade the bolt chamber complex is to change the geometry of the bolt handle; the bolt handle must have enough mass to it that it expedites the cycling of the bolt sufficiently quickly to feed a round onto the ramp and not break the rifleman's natural point of aim or target eye scope relief [TE/SR[ hn he is feeding from the magazine or single round. This bolt handle allows just for that; it is heavy enough that with simple snapping action of the wrist this can be achieved without ever taking the eye from the rear optic with a very silky smooth quickness that is effortless. The handle is easily installed even if the instructions are not followed particularly well. I have a heavy 1-1/2" oak dowel rod at my bench to depress the guide way bolt button on the Savage 110bolt and reset the firing pin spring. Ten minutes should do in the entire procedure. This "DOES NOT" take a gunsmith; any competent Rifleman who knows his weapon should be able to accomplish with a minimum of trouble. It is as ugly as Sin but it works. well done "BZ" ChiefBull I am CPO Surface Warfare 1200lb Steam qualified Engineering Officer of the Watch Underway and Double Distinguished, and two tour combat veteran of VietNam, Rifleman USN Retired: *Redacted*.
That was some of the most in depth explanations and defenses of useless stupid crap I have read. I had flash backs to my last experience at a public range 15 years ago........
I'm still wondering if breaking it into a paragraph or 32 woulda killed him?
FMR, that was a tough read.
Holy crap....I really am a bad shot. I was thinking 900-1000 yards was where the transonic region is entered (stock FGMM 175 SMK) - but hell's bells was I wrong. I was almost a factor of 2x off according to ChiefBull. Ok, I'll go back to handguns and skeet.
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Oh no guys,Long Range hunting is here to stay, inspite of outrage. The ones doing it are actually really riflemen who know their platforms.
I am not doing a downer on any chambering; it's all good. I think that if one reads critically what I've said here, that I am NOT recommending this scheme for barre;ls that are 24". The fashion today is to go to short barrels; I've got my opionions on that but they're my opinions and not really germane to this discussion, the point here being that in consideration of this chambering short barrels are simply not realistic. and you will not achieve the advantages of the technology edge; moreover, you run the risk of creating a dangerous situation as some opined earlier, not a good thing. as one pout in .308Win. is an ideal cartridge, for them as it is for me. It is efficient. and at a 180grns. of head the comparative ball;istics of a 30/06 ther parent case and the .308Win. are almost identical. Long Range hunting is identical to Sniper warfare: the rifleman gets to know his query, he gets to know its movements, its habits of movement, the times it moves most and is most exposed; he knows his range, his knows his grades, his gradient winds and the comps he's goi8ng to havr to use to mitigate wind and he's goping to have to maker good wind calls based on that. Any criticism of that is simply specious and not the least bit reasonably critical. The reply: "...I don't give a f**** about your medals..." is simply bad manners and shows not the least bit of class. Medals? I cited that simply as historical background in my experience with the .308Win. round; I am not a johnny come lately digital commando wannabe' Sniper or makeabelieve' SWAT shooter. If you want to disregard that I'm okay with that; the lack of civility is enough for me to know that the one making that remark is really not worth talking to about anyhing 'critical'. Again, oh no; it's all good [the rounds]; some like Chevies, some like Fords. They all run and run well; the secret to any of them is how well you develop them, take care of them, and know their maximum capacities.
I enterd the forum with a good bit of writing on the technical aspects [a good bit drab ad dreary in a post literate age where people want to see a picture instead of reading and thinking, I get it]; somebody can tell me "...I know a bit about ballistics..."? I really don't know what that means. The layout here of information was meant to help. the opinion on long barrels is "almost" correct. But then, "alomst" only counts in grenades, atom bombs, and horse shoes. For a .308Win. 30" is an ideal length; you'll have to to 34" before you start to degrade. A 26" barrel is extremely good for the field.
Exchanges such as this has degraded into really do a disservice to this web-site and really compromise its credibility as a forum where one cn exchange ideas and information, and engage 'critical' discussion. Not crying here simply telling your moderator here as a 'critical observer' you had better clean up your; you simply are not believable as a good technical site for information or discussion. Done here; I'll simply leave it at that.
Breaking Away to port
Follow my wake and take station if you are capable
Anchor'sAweigh/SemperFi
ChiefBull
All I got was "sniper", "SWAT", "technology edge" and 34 inch barrels. My head hurts trying to understand just how awesome .308ai must be.
Don't do a zoom meeting with this guy...
How bout three sentences?
Long range hunting is identical to sniper warfare.
Wind calls are very important.
Therefor, 308.
Long range “hunting” is not hunting. Youre just shooting large targets that have no concept of your existence. Literal children can sneek to within literal feet of trophy elk and put an arrow through their lungs. Game animals don’t shoot back, so equating hunting to warfare is comical. Unless you’re after the Big 5 using the weapons you were born with...
Hi,
Did someone say pictures needed??/
Sincerely,
Theis
Did someone say pictures needed??/
Sincerely,
Theis
You should go to longrangehunting.com
Tell them 308 is the go to for that.
Do you even shoot.
How close do you have to be to consider it hunting?
Is it really ethical to use a firearm ? Or a modern bow?
Wouldn’t a whittled stick be more ethical. Or a rock.
Would rifles be ethical if you jump up and down or fire a warning shot first so they know you are there ?
This has got to world class trolling.
Has @Bender and @ChiefBull shitter been online at the same time ?
Has @Bender and @ChiefBull shitter been online at the same time ?
Unless you're naked and jump onto their back and strangle them with your bare hands, its really just "harvesting..."
Oh ffs! Another lengthy post whitout any pertinent information (and the only germaine I want to read about on a forum like this is Salazahr (I know German, but...).
Barrel length?
Transition to subsonic velocities magically delayed due to chamber shape and exit velocity?
Chamber pressure measurement?
I don't need a picture, I can read (and do so a bloody lot). What I do need is information and an explanation as to why 308AI has been passed over by people that go to hell and back to invent another variety of something that already exist.
Barrel length?
Transition to subsonic velocities magically delayed due to chamber shape and exit velocity?
Chamber pressure measurement?
I don't need a picture, I can read (and do so a bloody lot). What I do need is information and an explanation as to why 308AI has been passed over by people that go to hell and back to invent another variety of something that already exist.
There are some folks who continue on the Old West tradition of long range hunting... The amount of skill, calculation, and knowledge of one's equipment to achieve an ethical kill on especially large game at 700 - 1000+ yards is downright badass.
The average range of buffalo kills in the 1860s-70s by commercial and military hunters using the .50-90/.45-70 Trapdoors and falling blocks were around 400 yards or so. Many were taken at even farther distance and from moving railcars. The reason being that many of the most skilled warriors in the Plains tribes, most notably the Comanche and the Sioux, were known to hide themselves and their horses within the herds of buffalo. When the hunters stalked too close, the warriors suddenly spring up and ambush the hunters. And contrary to Hollywood myth, most hide hunters of that time did not carry a martial caliber sidearm, simply because they could not afford one. At most, some would have a .31 caliber percussion revolver or one of the puny 1st Model S&W .22 top-breaks in addition to their skinning knives, which were barely adequate when facing a mounted and determined enemy...
ETA: If you do not have equipment that is realistically rated for the ranges that you expect to hunt at, you simply do not attempt it.
The average range of buffalo kills in the 1860s-70s by commercial and military hunters using the .50-90/.45-70 Trapdoors and falling blocks were around 400 yards or so. Many were taken at even farther distance and from moving railcars. The reason being that many of the most skilled warriors in the Plains tribes, most notably the Comanche and the Sioux, were known to hide themselves and their horses within the herds of buffalo. When the hunters stalked too close, the warriors suddenly spring up and ambush the hunters. And contrary to Hollywood myth, most hide hunters of that time did not carry a martial caliber sidearm, simply because they could not afford one. At most, some would have a .31 caliber percussion revolver or one of the puny 1st Model S&W .22 top-breaks in addition to their skinning knives, which were barely adequate when facing a mounted and determined enemy...
ETA: If you do not have equipment that is realistically rated for the ranges that you expect to hunt at, you simply do not attempt it.
Yes, but we’re mostly men, so...Hahaha!!!!!!!
You think the belligerents have that nice of cleavage? Hahahaha!!!!!
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