338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Ed,

My first post refers to ZA338 "projectiles" to be included in the test/demo, one of which will be introduced at SHOT along with three other calibers.

The second comment deals with dedicated ZA "rifles", only one off which will be at the test/demo.

Given what you already know about the personalities, and products, associated with this microniche... your line of questioning strikes me as odd.

To be frank Ed, it also appears somewhat suspect.

 

[ELR researcher]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Noel:

Thanks for the responses. Questions answered.

As for your finding it "odd" that I have no knowledge of what you are using or going to do at the demo (save for what has been provided in this thread) or at SHOT, is odd to me. I have no mind reading capability, I ask questions and hope to get answers. Had you responded to my prior e-mail I might have had a clue.

And what is this nonsense about anything I have done or do as being "suspect"? The negative comments made by others, including Groper in this thread...those fingers certainly weren't being pointed at me.

I just checked the Exhibitor list for SHOT - checked the C, N, and Z listings - and did not find a listing that appeared to be you or "ZA". Which booth will you be in?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

ELR,

I am not on the "team" I was asked to moderate and I have taken a very laid back attitude towards the whole thing.

I have not worked with Noel, I have never fired a single one of his projectiles. My agreeing to the demo was mainly to put the bullshit to rest. My number one reason for taking part in this demo is to see the Chronograph. This is what interests me the most. Who's bullets I shoot through it is irrelevant to be honest. Of course the more manufacturers we can have represented the better, but from my perspective each manufacturer has an equal opportunity to shine. I am not on any one's "team" I am there to keep it open and to do my best to put rounds on target. I am not looking to position myself on the end all, or the ultimate insider on this, I am looking to finally get something concrete accomplished.

Again, you attempt to stir the pot by framing my participation as one of being on "Team ZA", so this way you can cry bias down the road. Sorry not happening. Regardless of what you are saying here at the end, you know good and well what is going on in terms of the broad strokes because you, yourself tried to do this same thing only a few months ago. It failed to materialize and now you want to do the same here. The idea you don' t want anything to do with it, yet you immediately asked to be present, so how does that jive ? Dishonest to a fault and pretty transparent if you ask me and one of the main reasons you're gonna be standing on the outside, both there and on here because your time is certainly counting down.

You're stirring the pot, like you called the others in to comment when you knew very well they weren't taking part, asking the same question over and over while slightly spinning it to frame fit your agenda, it's not hard see and you're clearly not as slick as you think you are.

Clocks ticking... and I have the full stop button.

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Ed,

"I am not (do not want to be) on the team... why the beef?"...

This does not conform to the stated wishes of one Oscar Leckleiter, who established contact with me (out of the blue) over two years ago. It was only one year ago that you submitted an unsolicited Cirriculum Vitae, and offered your services to ZA based upon it.

I could go into other inconsistencies, and unlikely coincidences, but if this is all just a huge misunderstanding you must realize that I have experienced a number of such coincidences, of different origin, in the past three years. You need to back-off.

This thread has immense value to shooters for reasons that have nothing to do with me, or ZA.

By the way, neither Frank, nor Cory, are on a "team", and your suggestion to the contrary exemplifies precisely the type of imput that is going to get you in trouble.

 

[pyrofx]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Damn Frank . You have a lot of patience . I would have taken the Czar attitude by now.

Good luck with the deal . Sounds like a good time for all involved.

Greg

 

[ELR researcher]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

LL and Noel:

Wow! How does the word "team" get all out of shape. All I meant by "team" was the group of folks that will be at the range, participating and making things happen. Spend a moment and re-read my post with MY definition - since I'm the one that used the word. Again, the team I see here is the Sniper's Hide folks plus various interested parties, together, the "team".

Noel:

Thanks for using my name - right at the top of my website home page.

Yes, I sent you my resume as a possible unpaid helper when I thought you might need some help with business matters. Standard drill, you offer someone help and they figure out how to conclude there is some ulterior motive. Thankfully the charities I help every week don't feel the same way.

Your "suggestions" that I'm carrying another "team's" water are unfounded and simply incorrect. I'm just representing me and my site. That noted, Scorpion has been VERY forthright about their development - photos and all - on this site. And - reality check - LM and GSC have been producing and selling ULR projectiles for years...and, well, others have talked and talked and talked and haven't produced.

Missed your response to the question about what booth you'll be in at SHOT. Please advise.

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Ed,

"Scorpion has been very forthright about their development..."...

So you believe Nick has a sub-MOA, 1.25 BC, projectile configured like an egg-beater?

Where does your sense of "forthrightness" derive from?

"LM and GSC have been producing and selling ULR projectiles for years..."...

Yes, don't you think it is about time that we knew how they perform or, as in the case of GSC, if they even fly past 800 yards? That is what the purpose of a moderated test/demonstration is.

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Ed,

You may have missed it, but my projectile will apparently be shot by Frank, or Cory... not one of my "team" members. It may also have escaped your notice that Robert Brewington has made a personal reccomendation to me that the erstwhile specified 1: 7" twist is *not* as suitable for use with the LM-105 as the rifle that Jeff is providing.

In all candor, Gerard Schultz is still unaware that his 295 will not stabilize regardless of twist-rate.

This is the last response that I will make to one of your posts. You lack standing as a participant in the subject matter that you have chosen to engage in. Beyond that, this thread is not about anything other than empirical results.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

ELR is not going to be able to respond, his agenda is clear.

 

[dbateman]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Looking forward to seeing what comes out of this .

Thanks to all the guy's involved .

 

[Jeffvn]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Wadcutter - from the developer. No there is no way for this hardware configuration to time bullet flight between the two chronograph traps. His answer was long and detailed, but that is the gist of it.

He assured me that based upon the distance between the traps and times through each individual trap, people can run the numbers and verify the BC math that will be generated.

JeffVN

 

[Brutas]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

"The 1:5.4” gain twist is designed for 6.5-7.0 caliber long high BC solids. As far as I know, there are only 2 of these super fast twist 338 barrels in the USA. They are both in my possession."

There are others in slightly different configurations around.

"They key to picking your desired exit twist is knowing the gain and the progression. If you wanted it to exit at say 6.4" you could simply trim back from the crown to the appropriate spot. If you wanted to exit at a 5.4" but only wanted it 30" long, you would trim from the breech."

We can make pretty much any desired twist requested, but the extremely fast twists get a little tricky and cost a little more.

 

[.375Mojave]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Thank God for mercifully ending that LL.

I never saw anybody grind an axe as hard as this guy Ed. Horse's ass doesn't quite cover it.

I have seen a lot of back and forth over Noel's work on this site and I sincerely hope his hard work bears fruit and he gets the data to validate it. I think we are all interested in seeing the technology advance.

I hope this will produce useful data so good luck out there.

 

[mouse07410]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

For me the great value of this shoot is comprised of:
<ul style="list-style-type: disc">[*]Observing and documenting behavior of "interesting" bullets in transonic region ("interesting" includes Sierra MK 300gr and (hopefully) Berger Hybrid 300gr) when shot through barrels that include "my" twist (1:10"), "normal" twist (1:9.5

) and maybe gain-twist which I may or may not see in my life.[*]Providing empirically obtained BC for those bullets through the transonic region - which is the one thing missing from every other study I'm aware of.[/list]

But this ZA discussion awakened my interest. From this conversation and some Googling I gathered that:
<ul style="list-style-type: disc">[*]ZA may be a company.[*]There are new extra-long (6-7 calibers) bullet designs by ZA in 338 caliber.[*]There is "ZA system" that includes new bullets, new cartrtdge (similar to 338 Lapua but more powerful and developing more pressure), and a rifle that would safely shoot this new cartridge.[*]As a part of rifle experiments, ZA tests gain-twist.[*]ZA projectiles when released to public should be safe to shoot through "normal" 338LM rifles, ZA cartridge would require a special rifle.[/list]
It would be nice if Noel or somebody who knows could straighten me up and save me Google time by explaining in a few words what "ZA system" is, what "ZA cartridge" is, and whether "ZA projectiles" are intended to be used with standard 338 Lapua platforms (1:10" or 1:9.4" twist).

It is likely that I won't be able to afford either this new system whatever it ends up to be (unless it ends up as a caliber conversion kit for DTA SRS), or even these projectiles - but it would be nice to know what's cooking.

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Mouse,

Your analysis is accurate in all essentials.

 

[wadcutter]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeffvn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wadcutter - from the developer. No there is no way for this hardware configuration to time bullet flight between the two chronograph traps. His answer was long and detailed, but that is the gist of it.

He assured me that based upon the distance between the traps and times through each individual trap, people can run the numbers and verify the BC math that will be generated.

JeffVN </div></div>
Jeff,
Thanks for the update.
Can you give us a description of what sort of testing device (system)is actually going to be used as the <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">bullet trap</span></span>?

Is it a pair of acustic sensors that trips as the bullet goes by each sensor at the start and finish of the test distance?
Or.
Is it some sort of twin chronograph system that gives the velocity of the bullet at the start and at the finish of the test distance.

Just trying to get an understanding of how the testing is to be done from a practical point of view. I do a bit of testing myself and have been toying with system developement.

 

[Gerard Schultz]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Noel,
Direct insult such as these will always draw me out.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, don't you think it is about time that we knew how they perform or, as in the case of GSC, if they even fly past 800 yards?</div></div> You continue to be worried by GSC. We have a 232gr SP that sees use at 1200 plus so I can understand that.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In all candor, Gerard Schultz is still unaware that his 295 will not stabilize regardless of twist-rate.</div></div> You should get out more often, or sharpen up your memory and knowledge. Difficult for you since both Lutz and I cut you off, I know.

Have fun.

 

[Jeffvn]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Wadcutter - I know it sort of disjointed but its all there. let me bring it together for you.

Chronograph at the muzzle (not required but adds some nice detail);

two traps are used for each shot, each trap gives an average velocity for each shot.

each Individual trap is a 2 microphone set. Each trap has the individual mics 75 or 100 yards apart. the trap times bullet passage from mic to mic.

JeffVN

 

[Jeffvn]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Gerard

I recall that your 232 gr. was tested and is in Bryon Litz's 2nd Edition book. Frank or Cory, if they are willing, will be shooting the 232 gr. in the demonstration, so we'll be able to compare these results with what is in the Litz book.

If you have anything else in a 338 that you want tested please send it to Frank or myself soon so that we can do a quick pressure test with it and then test it in the demonstration.

JeffVN

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Gerard,

I took a look at your replacement for the GS338/6.7 that weighed in at 295 grains. You made two changes in the 309 grain iteration that *may* enable stable flight beyond 800 yards.

First, the nose radius is shorter (if the drawing can be believed), and the tail length was decreased to .95 calibers with a base diameter of .71 calibers. Second, overall length is now reduced to 6.5 calibers. While there is no way that it will stabilize from anything longer than a 1: 6.5" twist, there is a real possibility that Jeff's 1: 5.4" rifle will work for you. Your estimated BC is still off by more than three full tenths.

Wouldn't it be prudent to ensure the design is sound before another nine years of untested product sales?

 

[wadcutter]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeffvn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wadcutter - I know it sort of disjointed but its all there. let me bring it together for you.

Chronograph at the muzzle (not required but adds some nice detail);

two traps are used for each shot, each trap gives an average velocity for each shot.

each Individual trap is a 2 microphone set. Each trap has the individual mics 75 or 100 yards apart. the trap times bullet passage from mic to mic.

JeffVN

</div></div>
Jeff,
Thanks for the information. The system sounds good.
I look forward to reading the results.......Cheers Wad.

 

[esromvre]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Just in case this helps.. The vid is bad but I don't have the great camera stough...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWlEoqWrcE0

the one on the left is a SMK 300g and the two on the right are Hybrids.
These were taken out of sand stone as for the transonic change over I felt they did well.

 

[bohem]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Can you provide details on twist rate, MV and DA?

So we don't derail Frank/Jeff's thread, perhaps you can just send me a PM with the details on the conditions that those shots were fired in.

 

[goober]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Noel putting his pelotas on the chopping block ,this is the most exciting thing to happen since Nobody was posing -cant wait for results.

 

[Gerard Schultz]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Noel,
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wouldn't it be prudent to ensure the design is sound before another nine years of untested product sales?</div></div>All I can assume is that you must have help. You cannot be that wrong on your own. Explain:
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/check-out-bullet-14359/

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Gerard,

I am not sure what is supposed to be gleaned from your link. Are you saying that your son-in-law misrepresented the time period that the GSC338/6.7 has been available to the public, or that it is actually stable?

If you intended to address the latter, then your time for getting twenty-five of them to Frank is drawing very short. According to your website, the reason that the 295gr. was superseded by the 309gr. is to take advantage of new barrel technology. What technology would that be?

You have now twice been offered the chance to back up public claims with public actions... and declined to participate. This is very peculiar behavior given that you represent your product as available, *and* merchantable. The time for webchatter has expired.

 

[signut]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trigger29</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And if you are recieving everyone else's bullets prior to testing, what is to keep you from immediately cloning them?</div></div>

Seriously, you guys need to give the paranoia a rest.

Last time I checked Jeff wasn't in the bullet making business, and if that wasn't good enough I am certainly not in that business so they can send them to me because I certainly have no interest in sharing details. Besides if the bullets are truly working and available what prevents anyone on the planet from buying some and cloning them?

At some point in the process you have to put a little faith in people or you all can continue to sit on the Internet arguing with each other while spreading lies and modeling vapor ware on your computers in your basements going nowhere. </div></div>
Amen....

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

If Gerald wants to submit a system, as in a shooter with a specific rifle and tuned load in order for him to consider this, I say we open that door so he can have someone there representing him. In my brief email exchanged he seemed to feel the demonstration was bias against others because of Jeff bringing that single gain twist barreled rifle, so I say we open the door for him to have his own rifle there if that is what it will take.

Just a thought as I believe a lot of people are interested in this.

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Frank,

I fully support you in that proposal.

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

As an aside, it needs to be known that Jeff will be receiving 25 each of seven projectile types from me (not to be fired from the same rifle).
Six of these he has never seen before, and the single one that he has fired is now in an alloy that is new to him. In effect, I am at the same "disadvantage" as any other participant. This all really begs the purpose of a "test" for velocity decay.

To my knowledge, this is the first time that equipment has been available for manufacturers to gather in a public setting to collect accurate comparative data at extended ranges. It is just a side benefit that the test is taking place in cold weather. Viewed properly, a serious competitor in the marketplace should jump at the opportunity... and some have.

I fully expect the ZA projectile with the highest BC to go unstable under the test conditions that we will encounter. That is a validation tool, not a failure. Such "failures" are foundational to a quality product.

 

[Gerard Schultz]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Noel, It brings perspective to this:

* 21 September 2008: "I have checked U.S. Customs for any governing export regulations, and I can make a one-time shipment without an export license." Three years and two months ago you said that. Have you shipped?
* 2 September 2009: "Projectiles will be publicly available soon, and exportation to Europe is a part of that plan." Two years and two months ago you said that. Have you shipped?
* 2 Jan 2010: "Provided I do not move the shop, things should be good to go in the next month or so." Twenty three months back you said that. Are you good to go?
* 10 January 2010: "A 300 grain version of the ZA 6.0 will be available also in the coming year" It is the year after the 'coming' year. Is a 300gr whatever available?
* 9 May 2010: "Zethilius will be puttting up it's own website now that distribution is imminent, and all technical develoments/findings will be available in a single location." Unless 'imminent' means 'more than 18 months', this is what is up: http://www.zethiliusassociates.com
* 29 October 2011: "The public release of selected ZA designs will take place during SHOT 2012." Which booth will this be? We can't find you on the list: http://shot12.mapyourshow.com/5_0/e...3648cf245-EDD25679-9129-F5E7-28F9D38E1E42291C

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Gerard,

I am flattered at your attentiveness, and patience.

Per Anthony Peinkowski July 1st, 2010:

"Here it is. GS Customs Bullets built the 6.7 cal 295 grain .338 bullet 8 years ago. It flies perfectly, well beyond transonic. Tested in the Brisbane sniper report 4 years ago... the 232 grain, 267 grain and 295 grain bullets all tested great with great accuracy (exceeding what SMK and Lapua offered) to more then 300 m past transonic. This is a 1+ B.C. bullet that has now been shot in many rifles, over many years, and it's from a 7.5 twist! It works. The 6 cal 355 grain. 375, just like the 420 grain. 416, just like the 566 grain .458, have all flown to ultra long ranges, from many a rifle, over many years. We are not new to this, we are just new to posting here."... Re: Banded Solid 375 Test Results #1903401

Surely with such an illustrious history of achievement, and public availability, you can manage to get twenty-five GSC338/6.7 (295 grain) projectiles to Frank via priority mail(?).

That is the *only* question before you (to add some perspective).

 

[Gerard Schultz]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Good try at sidestep and smokescreen. However, it is not drawing attention away from your non-delivery and non-achievement.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Surely with such an illustrious history of achievement,</div></div>You said it. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">and public availability,</div></div>True, we have had our troubles but we have been delivering to 18 countries since 1993. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you can manage to get twenty-five GSC338/6.7 (295 grain) projectiles to Frank via priority mail(?).</div></div>Why? You are the one trying to prove something and to draw attention away from your non-delivery and non-achievement, not GSC.

Come on, straight answer: * 29 October 2011: "The public release of selected ZA designs will take place during SHOT 2012." <span style="font-weight: bold">Which booth will this be? We can't find you on the list</span>: http://shot12.mapyourshow.com/5_0/e...3648cf245-EDD25679-9129-F5E7-28F9D38E1E42291C

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

"Why?"...

Because our testing indicates the GSC338/6.7 is useless as anything other than an expensive paperweight, and you insist nonetheless upon piddling on threads where actual development and test reporting take place (such as the one referenced).

I strongly suspect that both the aforementioned GSC product, and the GSC 420 grain 375, exhibit the same collection of design flaws... and were abandoned due to that; not recent developments in barrel technology as your website proposes.

It appears that you have learned nothing with the release of your GSC338/6.5 (309 grain) projectile.

In the U.S. there are laws regarding the implied merchantability of products... but that is a problem for your customers to deal with. My interest is soley in assuring that you don't pollute serious reporting on projectile development with nonsense.

 

[goober]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Noel Carlson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Why?"...

Because our testing indicates the GSC338/6.7 is <span style="color: #FF0000">useless as anything other than an expensive paperweight</span> </div></div>

Ouchhhhh you have been called out Gerard on this public forum to prove you bullets claims .
One cant answer the grievances of just anyone but this trial has credability in my veiw -send the projo's and shut the nay sayers up once and for all if they work .

 

[Gerard Schultz]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

ch'e,
One must consider who did the calling out: A novice who, as little as four years ago tried to figure out from me, how to design bullets.

I was told a big story about how he could not see eye to eye with Lutz and wanted to use GSC style bullets in the barrels he is making. Has he ever designed and made a barrel? Truth is, Lutz cut him off as well when he got tired of his phishing.

According to Noel, <span style="font-weight: bold">calculation</span> of BC and bullet parameters is no substitute for testing. Nothing is proved before testing is done, he says. But he condemns the GSC 338309SP based on his <span style="font-weight: bold">calculations</span> from a drawing that he suspects cannot be believed.

All this from an amateur who has made nothing but promises for four years and has delivered almost nothing while others actually manufacture and deliver successful bullets. See my post #2900284.

Sooo, Noel. For the third time, come on, straight answer: You said on 29 October 2011: "The public release of selected ZA designs will take place during SHOT 2012." <span style="font-weight: bold">Which booth will this be? We can't find you on the list</span>: http://shot12.mapyourshow.com/5_0/e...3648cf245-EDD25679-9129-F5E7-28F9D38E1E42291C
-------------------------------------

Go ahead, have the last word, just include the booth number for Shot. (If you cannot, we can draw our own conclusions.) BTW. I see you have a link to Pastic Surgeon Jobs (sic) on your 'site' at http://www.zethiliusassociates.com/. That is funny.

 

[Emouse]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

This thread is far and away the best bitch slapping contest on the internet currently,..I have attached an email that came from Mr.Carson's account a while back,...it just adds to the hilarity of the thread!

From: Noel Carlson [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: 22 June 2011 11:47
To: undisclosed recipients:
Subject: bad news help

I'm writing this with tears in my eyes,I came down here to England for a short vacation unfortunately i got mugged at gun point last night at the park of the hotel where i lodged, all cash ,credit cards and cell were stolen off me.Thank God i have my life and passport saved.I have contacted the embassy and have also reported to the Police here but they're not helping issues at all,they asked me to wait for 2 weeks but hello no i can't wait till then.

My flight leaves in hours from now but i have problems settling the hotel bills.The hotel manager won't let me leave until i settle the debt .I am freaked out at the moment.Wondering if you could loan me some cash,You can wire the money to me through western union and all you need is my Name and location .Below is the information you need.

Name Noel Carlson
Location: 43 Ludgate Rd
Surbiton E16 1LN
United Kingdom
Amount: $2,450

I will refund your cash as soon as i get home,Kindly get back to me with the Money Transfer Control Number (MTCN#) once you are done with the transfer

Noel

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Gerard,

You have crossed the line from mere incompetence, to outright dishonesty. At no time have I ever considered the use of GSC projectiles, and I have our correspondence to prove it.

Alot can be inferred from a drawing, which is why I speculated on the performance of the GS338/6.5. As it happens, the GSC338/6.7 is not a matter of speculation at all. The latter has been *tested*.

I was somewhat sympathetic to your position within previous dealings with Lutz. That is changing.

You would be far ahead following Nick's cue.


Emouse,

Are you so gullible as to be incapable of recognizing an e-mail hacking scam?

Please tell me that you did not send money... I have been concerned for months that some charitable dolt would swallow that bait. Since you are actually in the UK, I would much appreciate a report on who resides at the listed address. Perhaps a visit by the police would be in order(?).

 

[EventHorizon]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

I hope all this BS doesn't detract from or infect the actual testing so as to put the results or method of data collection into question.

It seems neither party wants to answer the questions of the other and neither set of questions are actually germane to the projectiles being tested. If someone doesn't want their products included in the test then that's their business. We're adult enough to draw our own conclusions.

Would it be too much to ask for someone who doesn't have an axe to grind to explain the type of data that's going to be collected and how laymen who just want to learn this aspect of long range shooting can interpret and relate to the data?

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

EH,

It would be best to let the chronograph developers go into the details of data interpretation, and that will be problematic prior to having actual results. My understanding is that an interpretive algorithm will be integral to a commercialized version. Is it the methodology that you are interested in?

"Germaness" is undeniably associated with participation, and Gerard has not yet ruled out entry of the GSC338/6.5 projectile... which actually does have a chance of stable flight. Failing that, I agree adults can draw their own conclusions. This has no bearing whatever on chronograph accuracy, or reliability of data compilation.

 

[Emouse]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Noel Carlson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gerard,

You have crossed the line from mere incompetence, to outright dishonesty. At no time have I ever considered the use of GSC projectiles, and I have our correspondence to prove it.

Alot can be inferred from a drawing, which is why I speculated on the performance of the GS338/6.5. As it happens, the GSC338/6.7 is not a matter of speculation at all. The latter has been *tested*.




I was somewhat sympathetic to your position within previous dealings with Lutz. That is changing.

You would be far ahead following Nick's cue.


Emouse,

Are you so gullible as to be incapable of recognizing an e-mail hacking scam?

Please tell me that you did not send money... I have been concerned for months that some charitable dolt would swallow that bait. Since you are actually in the UK, I would much appreciate a report on who resides at the listed address. Perhaps a visit by the police would be in order(?). </div></div>


No one resides at that address it is immediately recognisable as incomplete/bogus and you should have realised that YOUR computer was mailing out crap to everyone on your address list.

If you had such concerns you should have had the decency to inform people as soon as possible.

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Emouse,

Apparently you, as everyone else who received that hilarious piece of internet garbage, had no trouble identifying it for what it was.

Have the decency not to spam this thread.

 

[Emouse]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

My apologies Noel,..I will allow you to get back to exchanging insults with Gerald and others.

Its so much fun to watch,...

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

... And, as it seems Mouse, participate.

Gerard has arguable business to attend here. He is on his fifth post without addressing it, but he may eventually get there.

You have none.

I trust that will influence your contribution.

 

[mouse07410]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Noel Carlson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... And, as it seems Mouse, participate.</div></div>
Noel, please don't mix Mouse (a straight honest animal - some crumbs of bread or cheese don't count

) into this! It's <span style="font-weight: bold">Emouse</span> - a totally different breed - that you're arguing with.

Now, having (almost) all the names called and (almost) all the mud properly applied - can we please get back to the technical details of how various <span style="text-decoration: underline">actual</span> bullets behave into and past transonic range, the only thing that matters in this test?

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Mouse,

I sincerely apologize for my insensitivity in inadvertently trashing a perfectly noble rodent's reputation.

On to the substantive content of this thread...

 

[Lynn Jr]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Noel

Will you be demonstrating the new bullets during the SHOT Media Day?
Lynn Jr

 

[Gerard Schultz]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Very good. A master spin doctor at work. "The public release of selected ZA designs will take place during SHOT 2012."

You did not say <span style="font-weight: bold">at</span> SHOT 2012. We wait (without holding breath) for the revelation of where this will be. That was the spin you were going to put on it, not so?

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

Lynn Jr,

We have planned to take distributors, and a few other interested individuals, out for a shooting demo on the weekend immediately following SHOT.

The same chronographs used in the Sniper's Hide test will be present for BC verification, but long range accuracy demonstration will be the primary focus.

My assumption is that even the hunt bullets will have a fairly narrow niche appeal within the general shooting public. If I am wrong... all the better.

 

[Gerard Schultz]

Re: 338 Bullet Testing / Demonstration LV Nev.

"We have planned to take....."

As opposed to:

"We are going to take....."

Convenient if plans don't work out as usual the past 4 years.

What will the plea be?

"The best-laid schemes o' mice an' men gang aft agley."?