338 Lapua brass cycles?

[bas402]

How many cycles are you .338LM shooters getting on your Lapua brass? I shoot medium velosity loads 2650-2850fps. I anneal, F/L size, and bump back .0015-.002 max. Afer 6-7 cycles I get a crease about 3/8" up from the case head (case is about to seperate) on some of the caes, so I retire that lot. Is this just the life of the brass or am I doing something wrong.

Sully
Edited to add a pic

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Re: 338 Lapua brass cycles?

For the Berger 250 test, I used a batch of 19 and a batch of 20 Lapua brand.

The first batch now has 13 firings on it over 6 years and the second batch has 14 cycles. I got one stuck in a kinetic puller and had to wrench it out last year.

There are 19 other Normas with 7 cycles on them (one neck split after 2 cycles) and 40 other Lapua cases that have about the same cycles as the two Berger batches above.

Most have been fired in the 2850-2950 fps range. I annealed both batches for the 3rd time, for the second range trip Saturday.

I've been neck sizing over the past ~5+ cycles, as I'm finding that if I full length size the cases, they actually grow, headspace wise, by .005", so go figure? The bolt closes with a little bit of resistance and they are snug in the chamber, so almost no stretching.

These are older production from at least '05, or older.

In the future, you might want to curtail your FL sizing after each cycle and go with neck sizing only.

Chris

 

[.375Mojave]

Re: 338 Lapua brass cycles?

I think you are experiencing the results of too much shoulder bump in combination with bullet distance from the lands.
Basically at the moment of firing the pin drives the loaded round forward to the shoulder or projectile making contact, stopping the forward movement. A split second later the pressure builds at ignition and, especially when necks are well annealed and extremely malleable, the case neck expands gripping the chamber with the case fully forward.
With the neck firmly gripped by the chamber, as the round pressurizes and is driven back, the stretching can occur just ahead of the base of the round where it is too thick to stretch. This results in the hard line you are seeeing.
This is more pronounced in magnum rounds.

If you split a casing down the center after a few loadings and before you see this line you can clearly see the thinning in that area leading up to the crack which is the external evidence of what is happening. Cut a round that has not gotten the line yet and I am fairly sure you will see the thinning I am talking about. It is literally stretching the case and tearing it apart.

I have gone to fire forming all my brass with a mild first round. After that I neck size for the most part and when I full length size, I just barely bump the shoulder enough to make the bolt close readily, but just barely.

 

[bas402]

Re: 338 Lapua brass cycles?

A little history:
I have the Redding 3 die comp set. I have measured the brass after firing. I have even done a test so as to not F/L size (3rd die) untill after (3) firings because the shoulder is still moving and neck sizing only. That's when I noted that it took (3) firings to get a good measurement in order to set my body die up for shoulder bump(.0015-.002). I set it up so that I can chamber a F/L sized case with just a "little" resistance when I close the bolt. I notice that these rings are only half way around the case. Heck I get faint "ghost" marks on virgin brass half way around the case at the same measuemnt after (1) firing, it's just above the case web.
Note**
I just checked some of my other rifles:
260 GAP virgin brass has to expand .0025" to fill the chamber (I bump it .0015") no issues after 10 cycles.
308 Savage 10BAS virgin has to expand .003" to fill the chamber (I bump it .0015") no issues after 13 cycles.
700 Remington 22-250 virgin has to expand .003" to fill the chamber (i bump .0015) 13 cycles no issues.
338LM Savage 110BA virgin has to expand .008" to fill the chamber!!! (I bump .0015" after the 3rd firing). The issues pictured above.

Chris,
You might be correct in just staying with N/S but after 3 I cann't chamber so I F/L at that time and only get it to just chamber with little resistance.

.375Maojave,
I seat all my 300 Scenars and my 250 SMK's .015 off the lands, never closer because they just shoot. Over the last 3 cycles I've been testing 250gr Bergers set to mag length .164" off the lands, trust me I'm not to close to the lands.
I think it happens like this, after the primer goes off the case expands into the chamber walls, grabs the walls sending expansion back against the bolt face then further expansion pushing the case forward against the shoulder. I know about the paper clip trick and I have cut some cases into (length wise) during the process and have seen the walls thinning and the faint "ghost" ring on one half of the case.

I have checked with go and no-go gages and all checks out fine. This rifle has done this from day one and I was just curious if any one has seen a chamber that the brass would need to grow at the shoulder .008".
It's to the point now that it has 700 rds down the tube and I'm tired of going through brass so I have ordered another barrel from Mark Chanlynn he will also true up the action so I woun't have the sloppy factory chamber spec's to worry about any more.

Thanks for listening and your input I'm just at a loss. It could be that even the bolt head floats on Savages maybe I'm engaging one lug more than the other, who knows???
Sully

 

[.375Mojave]

Re: 338 Lapua brass cycles?

I think you misunderstood. Your statement of being .164 off the lands is quite possibly a contributing factor. The more the round can move forward from the firing pin strike, the more potential stretch on every round.

I had this happen when I first started really pushing my 375 Chey Tac Improved. I can get over 142 gr of Retumbo in it and was playing with my loads initially and bumping the shoulder too far and trying to push the loads over 3200 fps and I got the crack you show in 2 or 3 loadings.

Once I tightened the fire formed round up it stopped, and I start by fire forming my brass which moves the shoulder forward about 1/8" and re-forming the shoulder angle to 35 degrees, so I dont think that it has anything to do with your chamber possibly being .008 over SAAMI spec. Once it's fire formed it's fire formed and as long as you don't overdo it on the re-size it should have very little ability to stretch the case.

It is usually a combination of things but I think keeping your brass close to fire form size will keep this from happening. Mag length wont hurt you as long as the shoulder is snug and the round can't move ahead. If that doesnt do it you may have some weird squaring issue I guess.

I am not sure the crack only going partway around is non-typical. That is how my 375 CT shows up.

I have had no trouble with my Savage 110 in 338 LM and have 5 ot 6 firings on some of the brass.

 

[bas402]

Re: 338 Lapua brass cycles?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: .375Mojave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think you misunderstood. Your statement of being .164 off the lands is quite possibly a contributing factor. The more the round can move forward from the firing pin strike, the more potential stretch on every round.

I had this happen when I first started really pushing my 375 Chey Tac Improved. I can get over 142 gr of Retumbo in it and was playing with my loads initially and bumping the shoulder too far and trying to push the loads over 3200 fps and I got the crack you show in 2 or 3 loadings.

Once I tightened the fire formed round up it stopped, and I start by fire forming my brass which moves the shoulder forward about 1/8" and re-forming the shoulder angle to 35 degrees, so I dont think that it has anything to do with your chamber possibly being .008 over SAAMI spec. Once it's fire formed it's fire formed and as long as you don't overdo it on the re-size it should have very little ability to stretch the case.

It is usually a combination of things but I think keeping your brass close to fire form size will keep this from happening. Mag length wont hurt you as long as the shoulder is snug and the round can't move ahead. If that doesnt do it you may have some weird squaring issue I guess.

I am not sure the crack only going partway around is non-typical. That is how my 375 CT shows up.

I have had no trouble with my Savage 110 in 338 LM and have 5 ot 6 firings on some of the brass. </div></div>

I don't think I misunderstood but it is possible. I was referring to bullet jump and not case movement. These cases measure exactly what I sized them to before the were fired as far as headspacing goes. I've never heard of bullet jump effecting headspacing. If the case is sized proper to the chamber how does bullet jump effect the case unless you have 0 jump and have it jammed into the lands then pressure could go up and effect the case/chamber relation... correct
Sully

 

[.375Mojave]

Re: 338 Lapua brass cycles?

You are correct. I was only saying if your headspace was excessive to the shoulder, and you had a ton of jump, there is nothing to keep the case from moving forward from firing pin strike. If your headspace is correct the bullet jump has no effect on your brass issue.

Sorry I was'nt clearer.

The rest of my response dealt with re-sizing, hot loads, and this issue. Good luck.

 

[.375Mojave]

Re: 338 Lapua brass cycles?

402,

The 250 Bergers are requiring you to be .164 off the lands to fit in your mag? In my Savage 110 HS I can seat a 300 Scenar out to the lands and still have about .060 room in the mag.

Do you find the Bergers to be a better bullet in your weapon.

Just curious about the BA.

 

[bas402]

Re: 338 Lapua brass cycles?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: .375Mojave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">402,

The 250 Bergers are requiring you to be .164 off the lands to fit in your mag? In my Savage 110 HS I can seat a 300 Scenar out to the lands and still have about .060 room in the mag.

Do you find the Bergers to be a better bullet in your weapon.

Just curious about the BA. </div></div>

I have 756 rounds down the tube on my 110BA and the throad has eroded back. It's the shape of the 250 Hybrid OTM (Long and thin) that makes it hard to get to the lands on my rig. 3.077" puts the ogive on the lands making the CAOL 3.925". Acually by the time the test were over they were jumping .181" and they still shot pretty good, .83MOA @ 1000. The barrel and chamber on this rifle never has been worth a *#@!, it's always been a copper mine after 20 rds that's why I'm using it for testing and experimenting untill Mark gets my new 30" made, then I will drop that in my new Manners T5-A.
I'll stop the ramble so as far as the Bergers YES I will be getting more to test further because any bullet that can shot that good out of my factory rifle .030 to .181" off the lands, wasn't pushed hard and have that BC to me is a winner!
By the I measured 3/8" up from the case head where the crack is on the wall and compared that to a virgin case... It grows (swells) .006" and should be only .003-.004 max, Who ever chambered my barrel it must have been 4:55pm Friday and they had a party to get to huh!
Thanks for the help
Sully

 

[.375Mojave]

Re: 338 Lapua brass cycles?

That sucks. It sounds like you are probably on to something about your barrel and chamber.

I did a very careful break in (1 shot clean, 1 shot clean, for 20 rounds then a few groups of 3 and clean, etc) and so far it seems to be a decent barrel.

I only have about 125 rounds through it but now that I am closing in on a load (mine likes 89.5 of H1000 or 91.5 Retumbo and hard on the lands) it looks like a shooter. I am getting .4 MOA at 300 with the Scenars. I can add .5 gr of either but I am still over 2700 fps and am trying to make the barrell last. This will be my elk gun.

Good luck with your new tube and I appreciate the insights on the Savage.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Re: 338 Lapua brass cycles?

I agree that .008" growth in case during firing is excessive.

Howeverm, as for bullet jump, it looks like ALL the .338 Lapua Magnum rifles, whether Savage, AI, or TRG, have very long "jump" if you load to mag dimensions, which of coruse is what the rifle manufacturers intend.

The long jump does NOT appear to adversely affect performance. That Berger test bullet you mentioned above had a very logn jump in my rifle (well over 150 thou), yet fired very tight groups comapred to my tuned Sierra 300g load, which ALSO has a lengthy jump,although not as much as that Berger.

I think the chamber size is an issue for both performance and case life, but not the jump.

Jim G

 

[ranger1183]

Re: 338 Lapua brass cycles?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 402</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

</div></div>
I hate seeing brass like that! This is what happens when chambers are cut too deep, or shoulders on brass are pushed to far back, and then cartridges are fired. This instantly turns brass into trash.

You need to make a false shoulder when neck sizing the brass and hope the case doesn't seperate when fired. Heck of a pain in the ass to deal with. With the price of 338 LM brass, I really feel for you.

 

[bas402]

Re: 338 Lapua brass cycles?

Jim,
I agree with the chamber and who does it and how many chambers have been done with the reamer. I have a new barrel comming soon and this test was quite interesting. My mag length loads were .180" jump and like you stated they shot well .5MOA but what was intersting was they shot better .030" off the lands and both had great ES/SD. I just wish they would point the meplats like Lapua, I don't think that would hurt the BC at all. So I will talk to Dave Kiff @ PT&G and my smith on trying to reach a mid point with a reamer, still load from the mag, but use both the Scenars & Bergers... We'll see.

Off the subject but I received an email last night from Melesia @ Berger and she stated that she will be sending me (2) more boxes for my help. I replied back that (2) boxes were only 100 bullets and her post stated 200. I'm waiting on her reply.
Sully

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Re: 338 Lapua brass cycles?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 402</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jim,
I agree with the chamber and who does it and how many chambers have been done with the reamer. I have a new barrel comming soon and this test was quite interesting. My mag length loads were .180" jump and like you stated they shot well .5MOA but what was intersting was they shot better .030" off the lands and both had great ES/SD. I just wish they would point the meplats like Lapua, I don't think that would hurt the BC at all. So I will talk to Dave Kiff @ PT&G and my smith on trying to reach a mid point with a reamer, still load from the mag, but use both the Scenars & Bergers... We'll see.

<span style="color: #6600CC">Off the subject but I received an email last night from Melesia @ Berger and she stated that she will be sending me (2) more boxes for my help. I replied back that (2) boxes were only 100 bullets and her post stated 200. I'm waiting on her reply.</span>

Sully </div></div>

Yeah, I noticed that too, but I was a bit more gracious about the numerical difference between the 100 ct boxes (most of their product line) and the .338" bullets, that mostly get packaged in counts of 50.

I gave an alternate .30 cal 'second choice,' just in case. Don't get me wrong, I'd rather have 200 of them, than 100...that would be sweet, but I wasn't going to get into the whole 'you're ripping me off' tangent when somebody's being nice to me, lol.

Chris

 

[JimGnitecki]

Re: 338 Lapua brass cycles?

I too politely quoted Michelle's original posting, and noted that it would take FOUR boxes to make 200 of these bullets, since they come 50 to a box.

Jim G

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Re: 338 Lapua brass cycles?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JimGnitecki</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I too politely quoted Michelle's original posting, and noted that it would take FOUR boxes to make 200 of these bullets, since they come 50 to a box.

Jim G </div></div>

Awesome, you two can take the arrows, I'll sit back with my cold sixer and enjoy the benefits.

I was nervous about doing this project, especially since I could only do 100 yards in the alloted time, but it was literally a fun experience.

I had actually glossed over the '200 extra' part when I first read Michelle's post, in order to beat all of you suckers to the punch, so it's nice to know that they're sending us some more!

Chris

 

[JimGnitecki]

Re: 338 Lapua brass cycles?

Chris: Melesia at Berger just confirmed she would be sending 200 bullets = 4 boxes of 50 of the 250g Hybrids to me.

She said the confusion arose form the fact that MOST berger bullets apparently come in boxes of 100.

The test Bergers were the first Bergers I had tried, so when she first wrote me telling me she would be sending me 2 boxes, I naturally assumed she made an error (100 bullets versus 200 being sent to me), but the confusion was compounded by her thinking thse bullets came in boxes of 100 each!

Jim G

 

[bas402]

Re: 338 Lapua brass cycles?

Folks,
First off I did not accuse Berger or Melesia, of any wrong doing in any way. I just emailed her with a question as I knew the 300 and the 250 OTM's came in boxes of 50. She replied that is was a misunderstanding on her part on the ct/box. My concern was met with understanding as I knew it would be. They are great folks but I just needed confirmation.... period.
I guess next time I will keep my thoughts to myself so folks don't read something into it that was never there to begin with!
Sully

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Re: 338 Lapua brass cycles?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 402</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Folks,
First off I did not accuse Berger or Melesia, of any wrong doing in any way. I just emailed her with a question as I knew the 300 and the 250 OTM's came in boxes of 50. She replied that is was a misunderstanding on her part on the ct/box. My concern was met with understanding as I knew it would be. They are great folks but I just needed confirmation.... period.
I guess next time I will keep my thoughts to myself so folks don't read something into it that was never there to begin with!
Sully </div></div>

Sully,

I never thought you accused Berger of doing anything nefarious.

"You're ripping me off" was a tongue in cheek, figure of speech.

The 200 bullets would be legally considered a gift and as such, the recipient isn't 'entitled' to them and the 'gift' can be revoked (or modified) at anytime up until they're shipped.

I was commenting more on how I approached the situation, as we were having the same exact thought. I decided to just let the cards fall where they may and that's why I thanked you guys for clearing up the matter, as I wasn't going to say anything about it, had there been a legitimate misunderstanding.

For all I know, the the 250 Hybrids are classified a bit differently than their other bullets--not the first time it has happened.

Anyhow, thanks again for clearing it up.

Chris

 

[bas402]

Re: 338 Lapua brass cycles?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChrisGarrett</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 402</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Folks,
First off I did not accuse Berger or Melesia, of any wrong doing in any way. I just emailed her with a question as I knew the 300 and the 250 OTM's came in boxes of 50. She replied that is was a misunderstanding on her part on the ct/box. My concern was met with understanding as I knew it would be. They are great folks but I just needed confirmation.... period.
I guess next time I will keep my thoughts to myself so folks don't read something into it that was never there to begin with!
Sully </div></div>

Sully,

I never thought you accused Berger of doing anything nefarious.

"You're ripping me off" was a tongue in cheek, figure of speech.

The 200 bullets would be legally considered a gift and as such, the recipient isn't 'entitled' to them and the 'gift' can be revoked (or modified) at anytime up until they're shipped.

I was commenting more on how I approached the situation, as we were having the same exact thought. I decided to just let the cards fall where they may and that's why I thanked you guys for clearing up the matter, as I wasn't going to say anything about it, had there been a legitimate misunderstanding.

For all I know, the the 250 Hybrids are classified a bit differently than their other bullets--not the first time it has happened.

Anyhow, thanks again for clearing it up.

Chris
</div></div>

No problems pardner

I just didn't want someone else come on the thread and really try to distort things (like usual they know nothing about). I am very fortunate as I think we all are to get such a THANK YOU from Berger. Issue resolved. I just wish my chamber/brass issue was as simple to resolve... Got another.338 Savage barrel laying around!
Sully

 

[.375Mojave]

Re: 338 Lapua brass cycles?

402,

Are you having Dave Kiff grind you a reamer or does your smith already have one? Just curious as I may tinker with a rebarrel in my future.

 

[bas402]

Re: 338 Lapua brass cycles?

I will be talking to both about my idea and see if we can come up with something that I can seat the Bergers to my CIP mag length without so much jump and still be able to shoot the Scenars/SMK's that love .010-.015 jump. Most mfg's set the .338LM cartridge up with .129-.159" jump and I want to see if if that can be changed now that new bullet designs are being developed. Might not come up with anything but it's worth asking folks that know this stuff. This is what I found most interesting doing the Berger test.
Sully

 

[X-fan]

Re: 338 Lapua brass cycles?

402,
Have you ever checked to see if you have some binding or whatever in the Savage floating bolt body?

The Lapua has a huge bolt face and a lot of bolt face thrust. If there is something that can be moved it will move it...Maybe even grease in there?

IDk just a wild shot.

 

[.375Mojave]

Re: 338 Lapua brass cycles?

Dave helped me with a reamer for my 375 CT "Improved" and did a nice job on reamers for both chamber and reloading. Dave is pretty careful NOT to offer up too much opinion. He will cut anything you ask for, and he definitely gave me a couple parameters he would not wander beyond like neck angle, but after that he was looking for me to give him the drawing.

My 110 HCP appears to prefer a .000 seating depth. I tinkered with .000, .005, .010 and .015 and preliminary results appear to indicate the loads set on the lands grouped best with 300 Scenars. I was a little surprised to see that I still had room to spare in my mag with that seating.

I am going to run some 250 SMK's through the same process now that I have settled on 89.5 g of H1000 and 91.5 gr of Retumbo as charges that appear to group.

After that I need to decide whether I am going to try to hunt with one of those or look at 250 Accubonds or something for hunting.

Good luck and keep me posted on your progress with solving your brass problem and what you end up with for a re-barreling solution.

 

[steve123]

Re: 338 Lapua brass cycles?

This is the problem I've always disliked about factory chambers. For now you're stuck in the catch22 of neck sizing with hard bolt close or when you try to FL size the web of the case is resized .008.

One of the best things I've ever done is order my own reamers. I buy the brass I intend on using and have the chambering reamer ground for a perfect fit(just enough expansion)to that brass. I then fire 3 cases - 3 times and send them off to a custom die shop and have them make the dies for minimum sizing. In the end it's worth all the waiting many times over! I've been using the same batch's of brass for 5 years on the 6x47L (3rd barrel) and 4 years on the 30-375R.

 

[.375Mojave]

Re: 338 Lapua brass cycles?

Sounds like a pretty good plan and appears the results speak for themselves.

I may have to give that a try on my next re-barrel.

 

[Jeffvn]

Re: 338 Lapua brass cycles?

Well said Steve. I too own my own reamers (both tight neck for turned cases and snug neck for no turn cases) and use custom dies. Its not for the faint of heart when you look at the cost, but it seems to save a ton of heartache when it comes to brass.

I can't say what other get from their Whinny 7WSM brass, but mine has gone on average 10-12 reloads before I chuck it into the recycle bin. (annealed after every 2nd firing)

I have yet to recycle a Lapua 6.5x47L case (I use them necked down in my 6x47L) and they are running right up on 10 firings now. (annealed after every 2nd or third firing)

I have yet to recycle a 338 LM Improved case. They are running on their 4th or 5th firing. (annealed after every 2nd firing).

I don't have any "evidence" that the brass lasts longer, but it seems the combination of custom dies, good reamers, and annealing extends the brass life... then again maybe I'm just trying to justify spending the $$$ on the dies...

Jeffvn