338 Lapua Magnum

[towerofpower93]

Probably too slow...

View attachment 8272725
Even Retumbo is slow with 250s. Here you can see even at 99% case fill you're still just barely cracking 41k PSI and velocity is anemic for 250s.

View attachment 8272727
N560 is a much better fit

Would Staball HD be better for the 285-300gr projectiles?

 

[Dogtown]

Probably.

 

[Dogtown]

You can see some standouts for maximizing performance with 285s.

Note: N570 gives good performance, but look at that 91% fill (not ideal). N568 looks to be a better fit and RL33 will get you there well within pressure limits, but the latter is unobtanium.

Edit: whoops, I totally misread that line about N570. Which is silly as this was one of my go to powders for .338LM

 

[secondofangle2]

Which ones do you think give the best performance based on these data? And where's RETUMBO? And isn't the N570 load 102% and compressed? I'm confused

 

[Dogtown]

ADI AR 2225 is Retumbo (the native designation in Australia) and it's way down at the bottom.

N570 gets you high velocity with good case fill. Even if you dial back to 99% it still performs well and you stay within pressure. The VV load data actually says max is 93.7

 

[secondofangle2]

I’d try some of that reload Swiss if I could get my hands on it

 

[babyguppy]

In my Sako (saaa co)
N560 - you can work up to this, since it's on the hotter side..
Fed 215M, Lapua brass, berger 250 hunters. I was playing around 91 grains..
you can 'edge' up past 89 (above recommended; and try to find that 3,000 fps sweet spot)
but, accuracy, repeatability, and low ES, are the rule of thumb.

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I also love h-1000

250	Berger	Hybrid OTM Tactical	3.681	N165	78.7	89.5	2582	2851
250	Berger	Hybrid OTM Tactical	3.681 - coal	N560	79.6	89.0 -max	2635	2907
250	Berger	Hybrid OTM Tactical	3.681	N565	85.3	92.1	2697	2920
250	Berger	Hybrid OTM Tactical	3.681	N170	86.3	94.3	2618	2858
250	Berger	Hybrid OTM Tactical	3.681	N570	89.7	96.9	2713	2959

 

[babyguppy]

ADI AR 2225 is Retumbo (the native designation in Australia) and it's way down at the bottom.

N570 gets you high velocity with good case fill. Even if you dial back to 99% it still performs well and you stay within pressure. The VV load data actually says max is 93.7

Case Fill - interesting how the curve on FPS react as the case fills up and starts to get up to 100%. I've added a tad more powder and didn't see that increase in FPS; because of compression. Love the sport, it's always intrigues me.

 

[thedude824]

Does anyone have any experience with 300 grain Atips and Retumbo. Ive got 100 Lapua cases and a new MRAD with 26" 338 Lapua. I was just going to load to mag length? Are the 285 ELDs preferred?

 

[Howland]

Does anyone have any experience with 300 grain Atips and Retumbo. Ive got 100 Lapua cases and a new MRAD with 26" 338 Lapua. I was just going to load to mag length? Are the 285 ELDs preferred?

My experience with the A-Tips is larger groups than 285 ELD-Ms with both Retumbo and H1000 using Lapua brass and 215M primers.

Take this with a grain of salt as I limited COAL to fit in the RPR magazines which left a jump of 0.120" as opposed to 0.060" with the ELD-M. I could have tested shorter jumps if I were willing to limit the rifle to manually feeding single rounds. I chose to not test and find out.

A rifle with a better match between leade and magazine might give you better results as I found A-Tips had lower SD in weight and dimensions by about one third across the board. I measured projectile length and base to ogive, calculating ogive to tip.

Yeah, OCD a little bit but that's why all of us are here.

 

[lash]

I agree that for mag length, the 285 flavors do well for me too. The .338 is the one rifle that I actually bother to weight sort for. In any given batch of 100 bullets, there is usually a standard bell curve distribution of weights, meaning that I’ll get a good batch of 80-ish that are within .2 gr and a few smaller groups of 2-5 that fall outside of that.

I have shot a few very tight 5 shot groups that way and get very low 30 shot SDs in the 5 +/- range.

 

[secondofangle2]

If you do the math, I bet the extra speed with 285s makes them neck and neck or superior in drop (maybe not wind drift) to the 300s. As Frank says all the time, the non-improved 338LM case just doesn’t have the horsepower for the 300s

 

[Dogtown]

I shoot 300s out of an 18" barrel sometimes and at 2500 fps that's still supersonic to a mile. But generally I agree the 300s tend to be a bit much for vanilla .338LM unless you have a longer barrel >26". For the .338LM Improved variants, the 300s combined with a >30" barrel is a potent ELR combo.

Edit: momentum is p = mv (mass * velocity), so sometimes higher mass going a bit slower (combined with low drag coefficient) is better for longer range.

 

[375fan]

I shoot 300s out of an 18" barrel sometimes and at 2500 fps that's still supersonic to a mile. But generally I agree the 300s tend to be a bit much for vanilla .338LM unless you have a longer barrel >26". For the .338LM Improved variants, the 300s combined with a >30" barrel is a potent ELR combo.

Edit: momentum is p = mv (mass * velocity), so sometimes higher mass going a bit slower (combined with low drag coefficient) is better for longer range.

We'll find out as I'm having SAC put together a 30" barreled action for me.

 

[thedude824]

My experience with the A-Tips is larger groups than 285 ELD-Ms with both Retumbo and H1000 using Lapua brass and 215M primers.

Take this with a grain of salt as I limited COAL to fit in the RPR magazines which left a jump of 0.120" as opposed to 0.060" with the ELD-M. I could have tested shorter jumps if I were willing to limit the rifle to manually feeding single rounds. I chose to not test and find out.

A rifle with a better match between leade and magazine might give you better results as I found A-Tips had lower SD in weight and dimensions by about one third across the board. I measured projectile length and base to ogive, calculating ogive to tip.

Yeah, OCD a little bit but that's why all of us are here.

Do you know what COAL you were limited to by your mags? Im shooting an MRAD so perhaps my mags allow a little longer COAL? I learned after I bought these that they are fantastic in 338 NORMA mag. Missed that distinction earlier. Fortunately I've only got 100 so I'll go to the 285 ELD-M if they don't work out. Which did you prefer between Retumbo and H1000 for the 285's?

The 300 grain Atips required a specific stem for the seater die. I see there is a specific stem for the 285 ELD-M. Anyone know if the Atip stem will work or do I need the 285 ELD-M stem?

 

[secondofangle2]

I’ve always had best results w RETUMBO

Seating stem in my Redding die works fine for 285s but maybe I replaced it years ago and forgot? Dont think so but can’t be positive

 

[lash]

I seat 285s just fine with my stock Redding seating die.

 

[thedude824]

I seat 285s just fine with my stock Redding seating die.

Is there a regular Redding seating die or are you guys talking about the $215 competition seating die?

 

[secondofangle2]

competition but the stem may be the same

 

[lash]

Regular here.

 

[towerofpower93]

I have the Competition seating die (RED55594 at Grafs) and did not have to change out the seating stem for Berger 250s or Hornady 285gr ELD-Ms.

And holy shit, I got mine for $164 in 2018. Fuck this economy. Looks like the die is a little cheaper at Grafs.

REDDING 338 LAPUA SEATER DIE COMPETITION

 

[Howland]

Do you know what COAL you were limited to by your mags? Im shooting an MRAD so perhaps my mags allow a little longer COAL? I learned after I bought these that they are fantastic in 338 NORMA mag. Missed that distinction earlier. Fortunately I've only got 100 so I'll go to the 285 ELD-M if they don't work out. Which did you prefer between Retumbo and H1000 for the 285's?

The 300 grain Atips required a specific stem for the seater die. I see there is a specific stem for the 285 ELD-M. Anyone know if the Atip stem will work or do I need the 285 ELD-M stem?

I don't recall what the max COAL was that I was limited to by the magazine.

The 285s were most accurate with H1000. A few groups in the 4s but most in the 5's once I found optimum powder charge, seating depth and neck tension (the .335 mandrel worked best).

The A-Tips definitely needed the A-Tip specific seating stem. It is very pointy and the tip was what made contact, not the ogive. The ELD-Ms worked fine with the seating stem that came with the Hornady Match Grade dies, which I am very happy with. I don't see any reason why the A-Tip stem wouldn't work with the ELD-M other than the leading edge leaves a ring on the projectile where it makes contact. I switched back to the standard stem when I switched back to the ELD-M. I suppose a stem with an interior angle that best matches the bullet would help with concentricity.

Best of luck on your trip down the rabbit hole.

 

[Dogtown]

Don't ignore Ramshot LRT

Since RL33 has become unobtanium, gone way up in price, and I'm nearing the bottom of my last jug, I thought I'd test out some alternatives for my .338LM Improved 40 barrel (36") with 300gr Hybrids. With 106.5gr of RL33 I was getting 3065fps, and while I was able to push it to 108gr, the former was a pretty darned accurate load.

So this past weekend I decided to try some other much easier to get powders. While I have a bunch of N570 I use for shooting 285 Flatlines in this barrel, I mostly use that powder for .300NM loads and prefer something slower for 300s. But I do have a bit of Ramshot LRT and 24N41 and decided to run some pressure ladders.

24N41 is a lot like N570, with pretty bulky kernels. I couldn't stuff more than 107gr in the case, while LRT I could go slightly compressed at 112gr. None of these loads displayed pressure signs.

24N41
min 102gr - 2903 fps
max 107gr - 3084 fps

LRT
min 105gr - 2928 fps
max 112gr - 3133 fps

So 24N41 was just a tad slower than RL33, but look at that velocity range with LRT? It may end up being a bitter fit for this combo. The only question now is how consistent it is? I've had mixed results in the past with vanilla .338LM using LRT because it felt too slow, but like using LVR in 6ARC, this powder might be really well suited to compressed loads in .338LM Improved

 

[babyguppy]

Don't ignore Ramshot LRT

Since RL33 has become unobtanium, gone way up in price, and I'm nearing the bottom of my last jug, I thought I'd test out some alternatives for my .338LM Improved 40 barrel (36") with 300gr Hybrids. With 106.5gr of RL33 I was getting 3065fps, and while I was able to push it to 108gr, the former was a pretty darned accurate load.

So this past weekend I decided to try some other much easier to get powders. While I have a bunch of N570 I use for shooting 285 Flatlines in this barrel, I mostly use that powder for .300NM loads and prefer something slower for 300s. But I do have a bit of Ramshot LRT and 24N41 and decided to run some pressure ladders.

24N41 is a lot like N570, with pretty bulky kernels. I couldn't stuff more than 107gr in the case, while LRT I could go slightly compressed at 112gr. None of these loads displayed pressure signs.

24N41
min 102gr - 2903 fps
max 107gr - 3084 fps

LRT
min 105gr - 2928 fps
max 112gr - 3133 fps

So 24N41 was just a tad slower than RL33, but look at that velocity range with LRT? It may end up being a bitter fit for this combo. The only question now is how consistent it is? I've had mixed results in the past with vanilla .338LM using LRT because it felt too slow, but like using LVR in 6ARC, this powder might be really well suited to compressed loads in .338LM Improved

Just wantedTo confirm these FPS. were coming out of your

338LM Improved 40 barrel (36") with 300gr Hybrids

24N41​

min 102gr - 2903 fps​

max 107gr - 3084 fps​

​

LRT​

min 105gr - 2928 fps​

max 112gr - 3133 fps​

 

[Dogtown]

Yes, this is an Improved, not vanilla .338LM

 

[gorillamotors]

New Hodgdon burn rate chart Nov 2023.

 

[secondofangle2]

Ramshot LRT and StaBall sure seem like 338 contenders, burning right near Retumbo

 

[lash]

Ramshot LRT and StaBall sure seem like 338 contenders, burning right near Retumbo

I agree. When I’m looking, I may pick some up for comparison.

 

[thedude824]

With regards to dies.... I see the vast majority prefer Redding Type S. I made the mistake of buying Hornady New Dimension dies so I would like to get the correct set this time. Are you guys using the micrometer set on the bushing neck in addition to the seating die? The 3 die set comes with a sizing die, micrometer neck bushing die, and micrometer seating die. I had planned to go with the 2 die Whidden set for $310, buy it appears the vast majority like the Redding type S.
Or is the sizing/bushing die and micrometer competition seater adequate?

 

[ChrisGarrett]

With regards to dies.... I see the vast majority prefer Redding Type S. I made the mistake of buying Hornady New Dimension dies so I would like to get the correct set this time. Are you guys using the micrometer set on the bushing neck in addition to the seating die? The 3 die set comes with a sizing die, micrometer neck bushing die, and micrometer seating die. I had planned to go with the 2 die Whidden set for $310, buy it appears the vast majority like the Redding type S.
Or is the sizing/bushing die and micrometer competition seater adequate?

At one point in January of '06, I had every die for the .338 LM and then settled on the Redding body die, FL S resizer, Neck S die and the Forster Comp seater.

I'm just a hack, but I've shot/loaded the .338LM for many years and this stuff just works for me.

Chris

 

[GIXXER2000]

I got a custom made small base FLS die from a friend but don't know who made it. Its a great die with excellent concentricity. I was using the Redding Type S 3 die set but this allows me to cut out one step. I am using Lapua over run brass with the i think is a BB85 head stamp. It's great stuff for $90 a hundred.

 

[Didodadday]

I am new to the reloading scene and see a lot of different prices and brands for dies. What makes the more expensive dies that much better than the Lee Precision?

 

[Dogtown]

Some people love Lee dies. Some don’t. I started with Lee decades ago, but Redding Bushing dies and Micrometer Seating dies I came to prefer.

 

[CEO10KaDAY]

What did I even do wrong here? This is the stem from my full length sizing die.

I stole the stem from my neck sizing die so I’m not SOL today but wtf man

 

[secondofangle2]

The simple explanation is a misaligned case was off-center in the shell holder, and the decapping rod missed the flash hole, and then you pushed hard and bent it all to hell

 

[CEO10KaDAY]

The simple explanation is a misaligned case was off-center in the shell holder, and the decapping rod missed the flash hole, and then you pushed hard and bent it all to hell

glad we can confirm it’s the equipments fault.

 

[375fan]

glad we can confirm it’s the equipments fault.

Of course it's the equipments fault!! Hide members are flawless and perfect!!

That really sucks, good thing you had a "backup" Any chance there was some foreign material in the case?
Btw, I've ruined a couple over the years in about the same fashion.

 

[CEO10KaDAY]

Of course it's the equipments fault!! Hide members are flawless and perfect!!

That really sucks, good thing you had a "backup" Any chance there was some foreign material in the case?
Btw, I've ruined a couple over the years in about the same fashion.

Sounds like everyone’s done it to me. Glad my right of passages is behind me now.

Ps: what do you guys think of this es and sd from this 6 shot string?

300 gr Berger, lapua brass, Cci 250, and 91 gr of Retumbo seated at 3.055 inch base to ogive.

 

[secondofangle2]

I think it will get worse if you shoot six more

 

[CEO10KaDAY]

I think it will get worse if you shoot six more

Ha!

See the thing is though, according to Altman there’s no difference between 6 and 600 in statistics.

 

[secondofangle2]

You mean Doug Altman,
The British statistician who recently died? I doubt he would say that so you must e referring to something else

PS I was joking it’s a great SD and a respectable velocity

PSS I wasn’t TOTALLY joking, it will get worse (regression to mean)

 

[375fan]

Sounds like everyone’s done it to me. Glad my right of passages is behind me now.

Ps: what do you guys think of this es and sd from this 6 shot string?

300 gr Berger, lapua brass, Cci 250, and 91 gr of Retumbo seated at 3.055 inch base to ogive.

View attachment 8363736

Me likey! Don't chronograph this load anymore
What's the barrel length?

 

[Thump_rrr]

Some people love Lee dies. Some don’t. I started with Lee decades ago, but Redding Bushing dies and Micrometer Seating dies I came to prefer.

Like you I started with Lee dies and a Lee press and moved on however I think that the press and dies are capable of making some accurate ammo.

I got into a discussion with someone on another forum who stated how much money his grandson spent to start loading 6.5CM.

He included the price of components and Lapua brass plus all the loading gear specific to the cartridge.

I replied that if you excluded consumables you could do it for under $100 per caliber using Lee dies and you could still load ammo that is quite accurate.
This is a comparison using on one side Lee dies, a challenger breech lock press and 18 pieces of once fired Federal brass from some Sierra Competition Ammo compared to my Redding Competition Type S bushing dies, a Forster Co-Ax press using Lapua brass.

Powder was H4350 Primers CCI BR-4 and bullets Nosler 140 RDF.

I was already going to the range to do an OCW test on that combo so I slapped together the 18 round ladder test + 2 sighters in the Federal brass. I reduced the charge in the Federal by 1 grain due to the internal volume difference.

Someone argued that it isn’t a fair comparison since the brass and load were different.
This weekend I will repeat the test using Lapua brass for both and the same powder charges.

 

[wizit247]

Getting ready to do a charge ladder on my AI 40*
Any advice on Retumbo and 300 A Tips would be greatly appreciated!

During fire forming with SMK 300s I ran 94gr Retumbo and it handled it no problem.

 

[Dogtown]

 

[XP1K]

Admittedly, I didn't read every page, but it looks like most are shooting 285's and 300's.

Does anybody know a good load with a 250gr hybrid otm and h1000 ?


Lapua cases, cci 250's, gen 1 trg42.

 

[Dogtown]

It's been almost 20 years for me, but I seem to remember 96gr H1000 was a pretty good load with 250s. I honestly haven't used that powder in a very long time, so I'm sure someone has more up to date experience to offer.

 

[towerofpower93]

Admittedly, I didn't read every page, but it looks like most are shooting 285's and 300's.

Does anybody know a good load with a 250gr hybrid otm and h1000 ?


Lapua cases, cci 250's, gen 1 trg42.

I only messed with one 250gr bullet and gave up on it when the 285gr ELD-M gave me better wind holds and groups that were nearly as tight as the 250gr Berger.

I shot the below single shot ladders with Retumbo and RL-33.

Single shot ladders:

Berger 250gr OTM
CBTO: 2.740”
OAL: 3.635”

RL33:

95.0: 2624
96.0: 2640
97.0: 2689
98.0: 2717
99.0: 2751
100.0: 2774
101.0: 2788
102.0: 2855
103.0: 2872
104.0: 2894

Retumbo:

90.5: 2764
91.0: 2773
91.5: 2803
92.0: 2823
92.5: 2853
93.0: 2862
93.5: 2861
94.0: 2885
94.5: 2905
95.0: 2942

I settled on a load of 93.3gr of Retumbo to get group size and velocity data on two range trips. The four 5rd groups I shot across the below two range trips were all ~.75MOA with the 250gr Berger.

26" MPA 338LM w Titan-Ti
Win LRM
Virgin Lapua w .002" neck tension

10rd group

LabRadar series: 114

Berger 250gr OTM
Retumbo 93.3
CBTO: 2.740”
OAL: 3.635”

Lo: 2846
Hi: 2875
Avg: 2861
ES: 29
SD: 9.1

10rd group

LabRadar series: 117

Berger 250gr OTM
Retumbo 93.3
CBTO: 2.740”
OAL: 3.635”

Lo: 2857
Hi: 2895
Avg: 2872
ES: 38
SD: 13.3

Hope the above might be of assistance in at least showing you a velocity band where your 250s might shoot tight.

 

[XP1K]

I only messed with one 250gr bullet and gave up on it when the 285gr ELD-M gave me better wind holds and groups that were nearly as tight as the 250gr Berger.

I shot the below single shot ladders with Retumbo and RL-33.

Single shot ladders:

Berger 250gr OTM
CBTO: 2.740”
OAL: 3.635”

RL33:

95.0: 2624
96.0: 2640
97.0: 2689
98.0: 2717
99.0: 2751
100.0: 2774
101.0: 2788
102.0: 2855
103.0: 2872
104.0: 2894

Retumbo:

90.5: 2764
91.0: 2773
91.5: 2803
92.0: 2823
92.5: 2853
93.0: 2862
93.5: 2861
94.0: 2885
94.5: 2905
95.0: 2942

I settled on a load of 93.3gr of Retumbo to get group size and velocity data on two range trips. The four 5rd groups I shot across the below two range trips were all ~.75MOA with the 250gr Berger.

26" MPA 338LM w Titan-Ti
Win LRM
Virgin Lapua w .002" neck tension

10rd group

LabRadar series: 114

Berger 250gr OTM
Retumbo 93.3
CBTO: 2.740”
OAL: 3.635”

Lo: 2846
Hi: 2875
Avg: 2861
ES: 29
SD: 9.1

10rd group

LabRadar series: 117

Berger 250gr OTM
Retumbo 93.3
CBTO: 2.740”
OAL: 3.635”

Lo: 2857
Hi: 2895
Avg: 2872
ES: 38
SD: 13.3

Hope the above might be of assistance in at least showing you a velocity band where your 250s might shoot tight.

Thanks for the data. We'd probably shoot the 285's but the rifle is an early trg with a 12 twist. And it don't like that bullet.

 

[secondofangle2]

The 285 ELD-M is an excellent performer. And it LOVES 92.5 of Retumbo. Can even go to 94 but I like a margin for error and high temps